Replacing the water main? Do I really have to?

[shawnharper]

Hi there! As part of our whole house remodel...

Since we're adding x number of additional fixtures as part of the project, the inspector, looking at some table he didn't want to show me, said that we need to replace our water main to provide increased capacity.

Here's the kicker. He wants 1-1/4", while we already have 1". Seems like a lot of work for that little 1/4".

Most of the additional fixtures won't be used at the same time - we added a laundry sink, wet-bar sink in the kitchen, and made both bathrooms double-sinks when they were previously one each.

Any suggestions on how I can check his work (other than doing so on the day he made his decree, which is already passed)?

If the answer's no, I'll follow up with some specific water main replacement questions.

Thanks,
Shawn (in San Jose, CA)

 

[Herk]

Too little information. What state are you in? What code do you use? How many fixtures do you already have and what are they? And so on.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Construct30]

He is undoubtedly going by the letter of the code. In some places they will give you a little wiggle room, but in other areas they will not. Who did your plumbing and what did they say? Is this in planning or is the job done and this was during an inspection? If this was an inspection then what were the job specs. Here we have a plan review before a job starts that tries to take care of issues before the job starts, if you are in the middle of the job, good luck.

The code books have the chart he was using you can get one and figure out the amount of water required for the fixtures you have or will have, it is really a rather simple process.

I for one do my best to keep inspectors happy. It seems at times I am working for them rather than the person paying the bills, but that is a fact of life in the construction industry.

 

[Terry]

Check this link here.
It's pretty close to what he's looking at:

https://terrylove.com/watersize.htm

 

[shawnharper]

Ok, I guess that was a little light on the info

Code is "California Plumbing Code 2001 (UPC 2000)"

Location: San Jose, CA

Have:
5 bathroom sinks
3 shower heads
3 toilets
1 kitchen sink
1 small kitchen sink
1 laundry room sink
1 dishwasher
1 clothes washer
1 whirlpool (forgot this)
4 outside hose bibs

Not sure if all those are considered "fixtures."

 

[shawnharper]

More answers:

My general hired a bozo (seriously - he punched his wife in my driveway one day, according to my neighbors), who was pretty upset at the inspector for making him change some of the inside plumbing (from the outside wall to the first tee) from 1" to 1-1/4". The "plumber" thought 1" was fine, but he also thought 60oz beers should be mandated as well.

Project is essentially done. Inspector said that I just need to replace the main and he'll inspect it as part of the project final.

The inspector's a nice guy, really. Let a couple things slide. Hard on some others (I was glad he was there to keep my GC in line).

 

[shawnharper]

My total fixtures comes to 38.5, which is in between the range of 1" and 1-1/4" on Terry's linked page. I'm guessing I need to round up, right?

 

[Construct30]

Inspectors are in general there to look out for your best interests. They are really a home owner's best line of defense against having trouble down the line.

 

[BAPlumber]

The inspector is also looking at water pressure, elevation change and distance to the farthest fixture in deternining the service size.

 

[Gary Swart]

Just to comment on this statement: "He wants 1-1/4", while we already have 1". Seems like a lot of work for that little 1/4". The area of a 1" pipe is .785 sq inches. The area of a 1-1/4" pipe is 1.9625 sq inches. That's over twice as much. So, it's not such a trivial difference.

 

[CHH]

I get about 1.2 sq in for 1.25 in diameter pipe. Am I having a bad day or is Gary?

At least we agree on the area of 1 in pipe.

 

[WestcoastPlumber]

You need to round up and you need 1 1/4"

Yes, that 1/4" means something, luckily you have an inspector that cares about your place, seems like, more then you do.

I have run into plenty of inspectors that don't care, you should be greatful and thank him that he is doing his job.

 

[WestcoastPlumber]

You need to round up and you need 1 1/4"

Yes, that 1/4" means something, luckily you have an inspector that cares about your place, seems like, more then you do.

I have run into plenty of inspectors that don't care, you should be greatful and thank him that he is doing his job.

Maybe if your general hired a reputable plumber, instead of the least expensive one he could find, the plumber would have taken the time to size the system first.

I size all my remodels and my partial remodels to make sure I am doing my job right, this is what the customer pays for. It is easy to get a plumber, but to find one that wants to do the job right is another story, I walk from alot of jobs because the customer wants cheap and I don't want to sign my name to a crap job.

Your plumber probably wasn't even licensed, he was working under his generals license, and he probably doesn't even know how to size a system or even read a code book.

 

[shawnharper]

Ouch! Why the personal attack?

...luckily you have an inspector that cares about your place, seems like, more then you do.

I said in a previous post that I had no issues with the inspector. I was just trying here to determine if my situation is borderline, and if it was, I'd probably try not to replace the line. It's just my wife and I, with kids way off in the distance.

And when I said rounding up, I meant on the fixture total. If you go to Terry's link (https://terrylove.com/watersize.htm), my "fixture units" is at 38.5, which is inbetween the 1" line and the 1-1/4" line. That's what I meant by rounding up (to 39, and thus, needing the 1-1/4").

So, I'll ask again. Do I have any ground to stand on that I'm at 38.5 total fixture units, and not 39, or does 36+ mean "go to 1-1/4"?

Sorry I've offended you by having a desire to avoid unnecessary work. I've lost about $25k in this project due to my GC going bankrupt (long story), and I don't really want to spend money where it's not necessary at this time.

And yes, I believe that my plumber was unlicensed. Lesson learned there, for sure.

-Shawn

 

[Terry]

Shawn,
I wouldn't take it personlly.

Nobody should take this stuff personally.

The chart is the Maximum units allowed.
So that would mean, that yes, you are in the 1-1/4" range.
We didn't run that much 1-1/4" before, but homes are getting bigger, and come with more plumbing.

What is sad, is an old home with a 3/4" water line from the meter.
I grew up in a home like that, there wasn't much water to go around.
It had started as a 1.5 bath home, and grew to 3.5 baths.
About 45 years later when I added irrigation to the family home, I changed the water line to 1-1/2"
It was 250 feet from the meter.

Just adding an expansion tank to a home that doesn't have one helps. I noticed that with my last home.

 

[BAPlumber]

I'd need more information to size this project.
-What is the water pressure at the meter?
-What is the pipe length to the farthest fixture?
-What is the elevation differance between the meter and the highest fixture?
-How many tub/shower combinations?
-How many showers?
-Does the whirlpool have a 3/4" fill valve?

After that we could see how close you are.

 

[Gary Swart]

Ooops!! I forgot to square the radius on the 1-1/4". The correct area is 1.2 sq inches! My bad.

 

[shawnharper]

-What is the water pressure at the meter?
unknown. wouldn't I need to disconnect the pipe at the main to determine this?
-What is the pipe length to the farthest fixture?
from the meter to the house, it's 60'. From there, inside, with the ups and downs, is probably another 100'
-What is the elevation differance between the meter and the highest fixture?
appx 9'
-How many tub/shower combinations?
zero
-How many showers?
three
-Does the whirlpool have a 3/4" fill valve?
no, 1/2"

 

[Seaneys]

I am surprised that someone in your city did not catch this. I the communities near where I live, the building permit review indicates whether or not the project requires a new water line.

Regardless, I would hold the general accountable for their subs. The plumber should have caught this up front. My general contractor and architect were both sharp enough to warn me that the water main might be an issue.

You may want to contact your community to see if there is an appeals process. It is worth asking if you are close to the line. You should consider, however, if you can replace it easily later. I actually chose to upgrade my main at a later time if I encounter a problem. My logic was more that I wanted to minimize the stress of digging on the trees by separating out the work by a few years if possible.

BTW - If you are going to replace the main, I would consider overshooting the requirement.

Steve

 

[CHH]

-What is the water pressure at the meter?
unknown. wouldn't I need to disconnect the pipe at the main to determine this?

No. Just check the pressure with all fixtures shut off and ahead of any PRV.