Pressure tank question

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RAM1961

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I live out in the country - on my own well. Well is connected to pressure tank in my shop, and from there the water line runs underground to house about 175 ft. away, as well as is connected to sink/toilet in the shop.

I was 2000 miles away two weeks ago, and had my dad checking on pellet stoves every couple of days. He called me one day when it was about 5 below and said he had no water pressure in house, but sink in shop was working. I didn't leave a few sinks cold water faucets dripping when I left, so an oversight on my part. Neither of us know anything about this sort of thing, but he said in two days, we were supposed to be up in the 40's. My concern was bursting pipes should it thaw out on line to house, so suggested he turn off well and pressure tank circuits, then turn on several cold water faucets in the house to a trickle. I should add he did go down in the crawl space - said it was easily 40+ degrees down there - followed the water line where it came in the house and all seemed fine and did the same in shop where it dropped down under the cement pad. All was well on both ends.

So two days later, he went back out - temps were upper 30's to lower 40's and flipped the switches back on. Water in the house was now working fine everywhere. However, sink in shop bathroom doesn't work now. I had him put some heat on the pipes in shop bathroom and shut the door. Never did get the faucet going out there.

So I'm back home now for two days. Water is working fine in the house. Still nothing in the shop. I did notice a couple things - I have a four head shower in master bathroom and it has a lot more pressure now then it did prior to this incident. I don't know why that would be. Nothing has changed on pressure tank (a Champion) other then dad turned it off then back on a few days later. I also am looking for suggestions for my shop bathroom. Does it need to be re-primed somehow? I also noticed in the crawl space 2 drain pipes that drop straight down from the two water heaters and water softener in garage. One is dripping - and I've not ever noticed that before. Again, my familiarity with such things is very limited, so if anyone has suggestions, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance.
 

RAM1961

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I wrote the above at work. Went and checked tonight - pressure tank gauge is reading zero. I'm guessing that means the well is bypassing it? What do I do to get pressure back in tank? I have pics if needed.
 

Reach4

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I wrote the above at work. Went and checked tonight - pressure tank gauge is reading zero. I'm guessing that means the well is bypassing it? What do I do to get pressure back in tank? I have pics if needed.

After the well turns off, open the drain at the bottom of the pressure tank into a container if you can. Otherwise drain through a hose into a bucket to catch heavier sediment. What happens?

Get an additional pressure gauge, with a garden hose thread, to compare pressures and to read the pressure elsewhere in your system. Plus get that new pressure gauge for the pressure tank area.
 

RAM1961

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After the well turns off, open the drain at the bottom of the pressure tank into a container if you can. Otherwise drain through a hose into a bucket to catch heavier sediment. What happens?

Get an additional pressure gauge, with a garden hose thread, to compare pressures and to read the pressure elsewhere in your system. Plus get that new pressure gauge for the pressure tank area.

How do I know the well turned off?
I can drain into a bucket. I don't know which circuit breaker is well or pressure tank. An electrician built this place and didn't mark a single breaker in house or shop.
 

Boycedrilling

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Is the pressure gauge reading 0 psi, or is it pegged all the way back around to maximum? Often times when the pressure gauge freezes, the pressure from the ice expansion will push the needle all the way around to the zero peg, and it will stay there after the gauge thaws out. REPLACE THE GAUGE with a new one. The cheap gauges most installers use have a notoriously short life.

Now this may or may not be your problem.

Your breaker for your well pump will probably be a 2-pole breaker in the 20 to 40 amp range, depending on your pump's horsepower,

By the way, my parents grew up in Charlo and Ronan, respectively. Of course this was in the '30's and 40's. They moved to Washington in 1952. Growing up no trip to the flathead valley was complete, without stopping at the creamery to buy cheese. These days we have to settle for Tillamook cheese, unless we drive to Las Vegas. Then we stop in Beaver, Utah at the DFA creamery.
 

Reach4

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How do I know the well turned off?
In my well, I can feel a little motion of water on the incoming line to the pressure tank if the pump is running. I can also watch the gauge go up, and I can look at the contacts on the pressure switch after removing the cover.

One thing that can be useful is that the air pressure will be very close to the water pressure in the pressure tank when the water pressure is above the precharge pressure. This can be useful for comparing calibration on the air pressure gauge against the water pressure gauge.

Anyway, I am wondering if much rust or sand will come out of that drain with the water. While I am thinking of clogging, it would take serious clogging to explain your symptoms. The bad gauge that Boycedrilling suspects seems to be a good candidate to explain stuff.
 
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RAM1961

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This morning, I followed Reach4's advice - I hooked up a hose on the drain coming out of the tank - right past the gauge. Nothing came out. A little gurgle at first but that was it. BoyceDrilling - it does not appear to have pegged all the way around. There's a heavy duty switch and a circuit box of some sort near the ceiling - I don't know if that would be a switch to turn off or not - thought I took a pic, but apparently phone didn't click. ptank1.jpg ptank2.jpg
 

RAM1961

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Further investigation with the help of a specialist locally has led us to believe the line into the pressure tank from the well is frozen. It more than likely is frozen right at the edge of the lean-to of the shop where water has run off, soaked into the ground and then froze. I checked with previous owner and found out they only buried that pipe 2.5-3' deep. So no doubt the water soaked around that line then froze up good. I started with an post hole auger last night and it's so frozen, I've only gotten 6" deep. Will probably make a tent setup with sawhorses and a welding blanked and put my kerosene space heater out there to see if I can get it thawed out.
 

RAM1961

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Scratch the above post. I punched three holes at various distances, and the ground is frozen only up to 8" where it collects run-off. I find it illogical to believe that it may be frozen at the "T" where line continues to the house and "T's" off to pressure tank. Water straight from the pump is running fine. So do I have something faulty with pressure tank or circuitry? I opened the panel of pressure tank to test lines for voltage. Ground (on left) to both blacks and both yellows yield 115V. Ground to red on the right side pegs it. I'm not an electrician - not sure if that's what should happen or not, or does it mean there's a short somewhere.?ptank4.jpg I'm done digging - I'm just not convinced that I've frozen up. Advice more than welcome. And I'm glad it's not Super Bowl weekend.
 

Reach4

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I am not familiar with your box, but with 240 VAC in normal residences, each hot will measure 120 VAC to ground. The two hots will measure 240 between them.

Ground to red on the right side pegs it.
Pegs it? Is it the meter, or is it a concept?
 

RAM1961

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I am not familiar with your box, but with 240 VAC in normal residences, each hot will measure 120 VAC to ground. The two hots will measure 240 between them.


Pegs it? Is it the meter, or is it a concept?
You lost me with that comment.
 

RAM1961

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Needle on voltmeter sweeps quickly across the dial face from left to right and stays there - it's pegged. Oh, and to answer an earlier question, draining water from valve on pressure tank produced nothing but a slow trickle of clear water.
 
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Reach4

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Needle on voltmeter sweeps quickly across the dial face from left to right and stays there - it's pegged. Oh, and to answer an earlier question, draining water from valve on pressure tank produced nothing but a slow trickle of clear water.
It was the meter. So presumably you had the meter set to a range that was 200 volts or less at that time. I wonder what that device is. Pressure tanks don't have electrical panels. That device might be a pump controller or protective device for the pump.
 

RAM1961

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The guy from the plumbing/drilling company said that box (pic above) was power for pressure tank. There's an on/off switch next to it to turn off well/tank. I don't know what's what. I'm leaning against this being a frozen pipe problem - my first post was wrong - water line from well runs straight to house and tees off to the pressure tank in between. There is no second line out of pressure tank to house. Faucets in shop aren't working because they do come straight out from pressure tank, but there's no water left in it. I've punched a few holes with post hole auger and 6-8" of frozen ground was worst case scenario so I'm having trouble believing line into pressure tank is frozen. Obviously the line to the house is not frozen. Tank when off reads 30 psi. I called former owner who built the place - they never froze up, even with some temps pushing 40 below for extended time around here. One other thing that sits in the back of my mind was a week long cold spell we had mid-December where temps dropped down past 20 below. We were gone that week - no water left trickling at sinks, etc. and no issues with water system. When it happened this time, another foot of snow everywhere (2' total) and temps had only dropped around zero to 5 below. I could go punch a few more holes through the frozen turf today, but thinking that's just a waste of diesel fuel in the space heater at this point.
 

Reach4

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The guy from the plumbing/drilling company said that box (pic above) was power for pressure tank. There's an on/off switch next to it to turn off well/tank.
Is there a brand and model number on the box?

The description with amendments is getting complex to follow. How about a summary description of the setup and symptoms.
 

RAM1961

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The pressure tank is an Amtrol Champion. I have also attached a crude drawing of how the system works (in pdf format below) per the drilling company owner who came out Thursday. Another shot of tank side - line comes in and there's a shut-off valve visible in the wall. The last shot is opposite side of the wall - line comes in from well through cement floor. There's another line with valve above it that goes back out to the left - that's the underground sprinkler line, and the only line that goes out from shop.





. ptank8.jpg ptank9.jpg

ptank7.JPG
 

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