Plug and play mod/con boiler?

Users who are viewing this thread

BarretHC

New Member
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Massachusetts
Hello all!!!

Quick question, looking for a mod/con energy efficient boiler. Issue is, most out there are low mass and would require a buffer tank i believe due to the 2 small bedroom zones that have fin tube baseboard. The third zone is larger with approx 5-6 cast iron radiators and a length cast iron baseboard. So in order to prevent short cycling and due to having a hodgepodge of pipes and materials, I'm looking for a 'plug and play' of sorts for my boiler replacement. I know that HTP Versa Flame (with 55gal tank) is exactly that (so my plumber, and HTP rep says). However I'm looking for something similar maybe without the DHW. Thanks in advance for the options!
 

BarretHC

New Member
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Massachusetts
I should add that I don't want to be bothered with pri/sec piping either. Maybe HTP is the only one out there?
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
If you need to support multiple tiny-radiation zones the HTP is usually a pretty good choice- small footprint, purpose made and thus easy to design with. I don't know of a comparable unit being marketed in the US, but there are also options that can be custom-designed around condensing tank type hot water heaters.
 

BadgerBoilerMN

Hydronic Heating Designer
Messages
485
Reaction score
10
Points
18
Location
Minneapolis
Website
www.badgerboilerservice.com
We use the VersaHydro in design and local installation, but the first order of business would be to assess the need.
Controls can get around most re-muddled hydronic system flaws and allow a properly sized, installed and tuned ModCon to shine.

I specified a 40 gallon buffer tank last year, first in 7, and then only because the owner could not unload the boiler sized 3 times the load!
 

Beads

All thumbs
Messages
47
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
New Orleans
Don't need DHW? How about an HTP Phoenix Light duty if it is big enough for the job? Maybe better yet, it's Westinghouse equal.
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
There's plenty of burner in the Phoenix Light Duty (or any other hot water heater) for the heat loads of most US climate zone 2 & 3 homes, but there are often code restrictions for using hot water heaters for space heating alone (with more flexibility around combi heaters.)

How are you currently heating hot water?

How many zones, and the amount/type of radiation (per zone)?
 

Beads

All thumbs
Messages
47
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
New Orleans
"... there are often code restrictions for using hot water heaters for space heating alone"

Wow, would it matter that HTP includes instructions in the Phoneix install manual for heating application?
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
"... there are often code restrictions for using hot water heaters for space heating alone"

Wow, would it matter that HTP includes instructions in the Phoneix install manual for heating application?

Not usually.

Most of those codes seem to require an ASME certification on the space heating boiler, unless you're running it as a combi space-heating/hot-water system. It may or may not be allowed in your area. (I'm heating my place with a hot water heater too, but it's also heating my domestic hot water, with the potable & heating sides isolated by a heat exchanger.) I'm not saying it makes any sense to require an ASME stamp on a hot water heater as bullet-proof as an HTP, but that seems to be what's required, even if it's all low-temp low-pressure space heating.

If you're heating hot water with an existing standalone gas-burner it probably has enough burner to serve both in a New Orleans location. You probably have enough radiation to run it all at domestic hot water temps too- have you run a room-by-room heat load calculation, and compared the room radiation to the actual room loads?

A lot of older heating systems were oversized for the loads back before the walls and attic got insulated, and the windows got swapped out for double-panes, etc. which means with a tightened up and better insulated house it doesn't need 160-180F water anymore, and may not even need 140F water. To get to the "right" solution needs a bit of analysis on just how much heat is needed, and how much radiation is available for delivering that heat. The 99% outside design temp for New Orleans is +34F. Even though it gets colder than that from time to time, a typical 2x4 R11 wall house with clear-glass double-panes and R19 in the attic would typically come in at 7-9 BTU/hr per square foot of conditioned space, unless it leaks air like wind-tunnel and is on a pier foundation with no floor insulation (both of which are worth fixing anyway.)

Take a 13 x 15' =195' corner bedroom with two 12 square foot windows, and assume it's over a conditioned crawlspace (or slab-on grade), with 9' ceilings and R19 in the attic. The U-factor of a 2x4 R11 wall is about 0.1 BTU/hr per square foot per degree, the ceiling is about U0.06, and if double paned clear-glass it's about U0.5. Assuming a 72F interior design temp, that's 38F degrees above the 34F outside design temp. The heat load is then:

Windows: 24' x U0.5 x 38F= 456 BTU/hr

Walls: You have 9' x (13' + 15') - 24' of window= 276' of wall area

276' x U0.1 x 38F= 1050 BTU/hr

Ceiling: 195' x U0.06 x 38F= 445 BTU/hr.

Add it up and you're at about 1951 BTU/hr.

One sleeping human puts out about 250BTU/hr , so make that 1700 BTU/hr

That's a load/floor ratio of 1700/195' = 8.7 BTU/hr per square foot. There are some air leakage to factor in, but there's also plug loads reducing the load- it's the right order of magnitude. With a 1700 BTU/hr load and 10' of fin-tube baseboard that's 170 BTU/hr per running foot, which can be done with 120F water. With 140F water you'd be able to deliver 2x as much BTU per foot.

It's worth taking the time to sketch out the heat loads this way, based on your actual construction, even if it isn't necessarily worth paying somebody else to do it for you. Then you'll at least have a base line from which to work that's grounded at least somewhat on the physical reality of the place, and not some rule of thumb.
 

BadgerBoilerMN

Hydronic Heating Designer
Messages
485
Reaction score
10
Points
18
Location
Minneapolis
Website
www.badgerboilerservice.com
Most residential codes do not require an ASME stamped boiler. So check with the code officials first.

The other problem you will have in using a residential water heater as a boiler it the high limit that will generally deliver less than 150°F. This is likely short of the 180°F average design temperature most fin-tube is rated for. Not to say you need this but without a real heat load and reasonable output estimate you are getting a little deep here.

The HTP Pioneer "boiler" may be just the thing at 180°F supply temperature, but professional installation and regular, informed maintenance is essential on the Giannoni heat exchangers.
 

Beads

All thumbs
Messages
47
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
New Orleans
Thanks for all the info. Note that the Phoenix delivers 160 F water. The Pioneer might be just the ticket for the OP since it appears to be "single function" Versa.
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
Most residential codes do not require an ASME stamped boiler. So check with the code officials first.

The other problem you will have in using a residential water heater as a boiler it the high limit that will generally deliver less than 150°F. This is likely short of the 180°F average design temperature most fin-tube is rated for. Not to say you need this but without a real heat load and reasonable output estimate you are getting a little deep here.

The HTP Pioneer "boiler" may be just the thing at 180°F supply temperature, but professional installation and regular, informed maintenance is essential on the Giannoni heat exchangers.

The few local codes that I've seen restricting the use of water heaters for space-heat-only applications referred to ASME- I may be generalizing too much by stating that it's "most" (since I don't read local codes on that unless it's pertinent, and thus have a very small sample size.)

The water temp requirement to actually meet the load is still an important preliminary to nail down though, no matter what you're using for a boiler. An I=B=R type down & dirty loald calc like the straw-man bedroom example above would tend to overshoot a bit for the whole house, but may undershoot slightly for a bedroom with minimal or no plug-loads (or with high air leakage), but it's at least a good stake to have in the ground, far better than a WAG.

For the radiator & cast-iron baseboard zone you can look up the Equivalent Direct Radiation specs from the manufacturers, or estimate it using this guide. For the fin-tube figure on about 600 BTU/ft-hr at 190F output, 300 BTU/ft-hr @ 140F out, and 200 BTU/hr @ 120F out. Below 120F the response gets very non-linear, but 120F-out/110F-return is well into the condensing zone for boilers (& HW heaters), and even 140F-out/125F-return would deliver ~90% efficiency or slightly better for most gas-burners.
 

BadgerBoilerMN

Hydronic Heating Designer
Messages
485
Reaction score
10
Points
18
Location
Minneapolis
Website
www.badgerboilerservice.com
HTP and the Pioneer defy conventional definitions of "boiler" vs "water heater" since since the Pioneer is not a domestic hot water heater. Interesting that Europeans, and some Canadians call water heaters, boilers. It's a mixed up world!

Dana's fin-tube output is naturally entirely accurate though I hesitate to give older fin-tube systems more than 550 btuh/ft. dog, cat, kid, and dust bunny hair takes a toll.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks