New Well, Need Advice on Systems

[Craigpump]

Not to be negative, but I think you're going to be in WAY over your head if you try to set that pump by hand with a 280' static. Add up the weight of your 5 hp pump, pipe & #4 wire and you're going to have a fair amount weight to deal with, not too mention inexperience and lack of proper tooling...

Some jobs are better left to guys in the business, this is one of them.

 

[Valveman]

Not to be negative, but I think you're going to be in WAY over your head if you try to set that pump by hand with a 280' static. Add up the weight of your 5 hp pump, pipe & #4 wire and you're going to have a fair amount weight to deal with, not too mention inexperience and lack of proper tooling...

Some jobs are better left to guys in the business, this is one of them.

I agree. Even a 1.5HP on 1 1/4" set that deep will be a man killer. This is where using a hoist truck and 20' sections is much safer. The storage tank and booster are at least ground level where you can deal with them.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[BadDad]

I agree with you guys. I'm really not interested in setting the pump myself. but gdamnit, i've called EVERY single pump company within a 100 mile radius and not one of them has called me back, not one...

wtf?? i'm asking for a bid, its beyond frustrating. all i asked is for a bid for the equipment i've specified and installation.. i guess they are all just too busy or something...

the only person thus far after more than two weeks that has given me any response is my well digger, but he wants to buy the equipment so he can make the mark up. and i get it, everyone is trying to make a buck, but he was asking me $12,000 for a pump and two pressure tanks.. ive got nothing wrong with a person making a buck... but thats ridiculous...

So i'm going to see if I can get him to set the pump if i buy it, if not then i really have no other choice.

 

[Valveman]

So i'm going to see if I can get him to set the pump if i buy it, if not then i really have no other choice.

Good luck with that. If you even mention that you want to purchase your own pump or even just want the prices broken down, you probably won't get a call back. I know it seems like a lot of profit, but at the end of the year it usually doesn't add up to much. I know very few honest pump men who are rich. Most of that goes to paying overhead like insurance, vehicles, fuel, labor, taxes, etc. You can thank all the government regulations for about 1/2 of that cost.

But I do know a few rich pump men, if you know what I mean.

For less than 12,000 bucks you could rent a crane, tools, and equipment. If it all goes well you will save a lot of money. But if you drop the pump in the well, get it stuck, or anything else, the cost and danger will just keep adding up.

 

[BadDad]

So i'll talk to my well digger again and see what he can do for me. I'll let him buy the pump and set it. I'll do everything else from that point forward.
I do have a pressure tank from my old well that can be used just to have it operating.

Now that i'm frying my brain trying to get the system designed. What do you think about using two booster pumps, one for the house with its own pressure tank and one for the yard/irrigation with its own pressure tank.

 

[Valveman]

Now that i'm frying my brain trying to get the system designed. What do you think about using two booster pumps, one for the house with its own pressure tank and one for the yard/irrigation with its own pressure tank.

Not necessary, twice the expense and maintenance. Kind of the point of the CSV is to allow you to install as large a pump as you need to run everything at once, and the CSV will make it work like a small pump when something like a single shower is being used.

In the old days before CSV I would have put as large a pressure tank as I could, or maybe two on the booster pump. And I would still have had to match every irrigation zone to the size of the pump to keep it from cycling on and off. All the pressure tank(s) are for is to reduce the pump cycling for uses of water that are not matched to the pump. In other words I would have sized a 20 GPM booster pump, and I would make all my sprinkler zones 20 GPM exactly, to keep the pump from shutting off at all (no cycling). To reduce the number of times the pump turns on and off for house use or anything less than 20 GPM, I would still use two 86 gallon pressure tanks.

If the house needed say 5 GPM of water WHILE the irrigation was running, the pump would produce 25 GPM, although at a lower pressure. So the sprinkler pressure suffered at say 35 PSI until the house stopped using water, then the pump would eventually be able to get the sprinkler pressure back up to 50 PSI as needed. The bigger the pressure tank the longer it took to get the sprinklers enough pressure to hit the corners again. But still probably not worth expense and effort to use a two pump system with both a 5 GPM and a 20 GPM pump.

These days I would use a 25 GPM pump with a CSV and just a little 4.5 gallon size pressure tank. The CSV would make the pump produce whatever I need from 1 to 25 GPM without cycling the pump, all the while keeping a constant 50 PSI on the sprinklers and everything.

You have a cistern storage tank with 5000 gallons of water. You don't need to store another 25 gallons as in an old 86 gallon pressure tank. The little 4.5 gallon size pressure tank is plenty large enough because the Cycle Stop Valve is what keeps the pump from cycling.

 

[Craigpump]

I doubt you're going find anyone that will install the materials you supply and if they do, they'll mark up the labor to cover the loss of markup on the materials. Not only that, but what if the pump quits a week after installation? If you supplied it, it's your baby, if you have you WELL DRILLER (we're not well diggers) install it, you'll get a warranty on everything.

 

[BadDad]

I doubt you're going find anyone that will install the materials you supply and if they do, they'll mark up the labor to cover the loss of markup on the materials. Not only that, but what if the pump quirks a week after installation? If you supplied it, it's your baby, if you have you WELL DRILLER (we're not well diggers) install it, you'll get a warranty on everything.

the only thing i want my well driller to do is set/install my submersible. I will be able to do the rest.

 

[Craigpump]

Not to be argumentative, but just like you wouldn't carry a steak you bought from Omaha meats into a restaraunt and ask them to cook it, you shouldn't expect a guy a guy with years of experience, big bucks in equipment & highly trained employees to set the pump, pipe & wire you bought from some online supplier.

 

[BadDad]

Not to be argumentative, but just like you wouldn't carry a steak you bought from Omaha meats into a restaraunt and ask them to cook it, you shouldn't expect a guy a guy with years of experience, big bucks in equipment & highly trained employees to set the pump, pipe & wire you bought from some online supplier.

No, I totally get it and I agree. But I also cant pay $12,000 for a pump and two pressure tanks.
I'm going to talk to him again after he is done and have him give me another quote for a submersible pump and having him set it. thats all that is required according to the building permit for the inspector to sign off on it. everything else i will do myself.

Maybe you can give me an idea as to what to expect to pay for installation and hardware: 5hp pump set at 480', along with 50' of cable (2 wire singe phase 240v) from the subpanel to the well site, whats an honest reasonable price i should pay. I know everyone will vary, but lets just say the pump is available online for $2000. thats retail price, he should be able to buy it at a reduced price, as well as all of the other supplies. 500' of 4/3 cable, thats available for $1,600 online and 480' of pvc pipe, plus all the odds and ends.

can you give me an idea, + or - a thousand what i should be paying.

 

[Craigpump]

Without sitting down and putting together a quote, I'd say $12,000 for materials, labor, warranties etc. is more than fair.

 

[Reach4]

Maybe you can give me an idea as to what to expect to pay for installation and hardware: 5hp pump set at 480', along with 50' of cable (2 wire singe phase 240v) from the subpanel to the well site, whats an honest reasonable price i should pay. I know everyone will vary, but lets just say the pump is available online for $2000. thats retail price, he should be able to buy it at a reduced price, as well as all of the other supplies.

Revisit #4. You are using an above-ground storage system. Note the chart for a particular "10 GPM" 1.5 HP pump. Since you are pumping into a cistern system, the exit water is at zero PSI.

With a 1.5 HP pump that you could buy on line for $800, right there you would be saving about $2400 vs one that is available on line for $2000. (I know my math here seems suspect at first.) You could then also be using smaller drop pipe, for an added savings. And the wire could be smaller. More savings.

 

[Craigpump]

Revisit #4. You are using an above-ground storage system.

With a 1.5 HP pump that you could buy on line for $800, right there you would be saving about $2400 vs one that is available on line for $2000. You could then also be using smaller drop pipe, for an added savings. And the wire could be smaller. More savings.

NO one is going to install owner supplied materials without marking up the labor rate to offset the loss on materials

 

[BadDad]

Without sitting down and putting together a quote, I'd say $12,000 for materials, labor, warranties etc. is more than fair.

So you think $12,000 for a single pump and one pressure tank installed is a fair price?

I think it is rather rich.

I went in to one of the largest pump and well companies here and spoke to them about a bid they suggested a 7.5 HP Grundfos 40gpm vfd pump and one pressure tank. They will email me their bid in a few days.

 

[Reach4]

I went in to one of the largest pump and well companies here and spoke to them about a bid they suggested a 7.5 HP Grundfos 40gpm vfd pump and one pressure tank. They will email me their bid in a few days.

I predict that will make the $12000 installed price seem attractive.

Why would there be any pressure tank to fill a cistern?

 

[Valveman]

VFD?? Now you are being sold a bill of goods. Now you know how they got to be one of the largest well companies. You certainly don't need a VFD to fill a cistern. Now if you are going to pump directly from the well to the house and not use the cistern or storage tank, a 40 gallon pump with VFD system might work. If a VFD system will work then a CSV system would work better, as they basically do the same thing. But the CSV will make the pump last longer, and cost way less money than a VFD.

Are you going to be pumping 40 GPM from the cistern 24/7? If not then you don't need a 40 GPM well pump. The cistern will let you install a much smaller well pump, one that produces the total gallons per day needed. Then the booster pump will let you use that water at 40 GPM if you want, just not for 24 hours a day.

The smaller the well pump you can use to get the total gallons per day needed, the less expensive and the longer lasting it will be. Plus the smaller the pump, pipe, and wire, the easier it is to install. You also may not have to set it as deep.

 

[BadDad]

The bid was for JUST a 7.5hp VFD pump and a pressure tank, thereby eliminating a cistern and booster pump. it was what they suggested so i asked them to give me a bid on it.

 

[Craigpump]

If I remember right you were talking a 5 hp pump, #4 cable, you're going to need 1.25 steel pipe for that load & 2 119 gallon tanks with installation.

Last years list on WX350's was $1727.00 each, plus fittings. 1.25 galv is probably $5.50 a foot, the pump with motor and control have to be close to $3000, cable probably $2.85 a foot

Tanks $3454
Pipe. $2200
Pump $3000
Cable. $1282

Total $9900 not including fittings, splice kits, labor, hoist truck, permits, G&A.......

Like I said, $12,000 is a gift, take it & run before he changes his mind

 

[Craigpump]

So you think $12,000 for a single pump and one pressure tank installed is a fair price?

I think it is rather rich.

I went in to one of the largest pump and well companies here and spoke to them about a bid they suggested a 7.5 HP Grundfos 40gpm vfd pump and one pressure tank. They will email me their bid in a few days.

I have a 7.5 hp/45 gpm Grundfos, with Yaskawa drive an FL17 tank (going in a vault for an irrigation system),#8 double insulated cable, 399' of 2" steel pipe, etc etc in my shop, right now. So I know what that job is worth, what it should sell for installed and I'm telling for a fact that $12,000 is a bargain. Everyday of the week.

 

[Valveman]

If I remember right you were talking a 5 hp pump, #4 cable, you're going to need 1.25 steel pipe for that load & 2 119 gallon tanks with installation.

Last years list on WX350's was $1727.00 each, plus fittings. 1.25 galv is probably $5.50 a foot, the pump with motor and control have to be close to $3000, cable probably $2.85 a foot

Tanks $3454
Pipe. $2200
Pump $3000
Cable. $1282

Total $9900 not including fittings, splice kits, labor, hoist truck, permits, G&A.......

Like I said, $12,000 is a gift, take it & run before he changes his mind

And that old standard system with two big tanks should last 20-30 years. If you figure 20 years and break that down, it only adds up to 50 bucks a month. The only thing I would do differently is to use a CSV2W and only one pressure tank. This would reduce the cost to maybe $10,500.00. I also believe the CSV would reduce the cycling enough to make the system last closer to 30 years instead of 20, which is less than 30 bucks a month. Someone my age would never have to work on their water system again.

I am guessing they will come back with a quote on the VFD system for a little less. They will say you can use a less expensive three phase motor, smaller wire, and will suggest an even smaller 40 gallon size tank. Probably somewhere around the $10,000.00 mark. I know of very few VFD systems that last very long. Not only do the VFD's themselves fail too soon, but I believe VFD's bring the average pump life back down to about 7 years as the manufacturer would like. So if you figure 10 years to be on the high side, that is $83.00 per month. The three phase motor and smaller wire will make you have to stick with the VFD system like it was a Tar Baby. 83 bucks a month for the rest of your life is what manufactures and "the biggest installers in the area" like about VFD's.

Edit
Sorry I was typing or I would not have guessed 10K for the VFD system after seeing the last post. 12K brings the price per month to $100.00 for a VFD system that last 10 years.