Need Programming Assistance for Softener/Filtration System

Users who are viewing this thread

TxHr

New Member
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Texas
Hello everyone!

We built a new house late last year and had a softener/whole home carbon filter installed. The system is using a ton of salt (40 lb every 4-5 weeks). I know the settings are wrong and I am seeking assistance in programming my system to ensure maximum efficiency. Please see specs for system, house and water quality below:


Water quality:

16 grains hardness

330 sodium

0 iron

7.9 ph

580 ppm TDS



House specs:

Current four people with possible addition of the fifth (so softener was sized to accommodate). Currently we use around 60 gal/day per person.

We are on septic and well.

Prefer to use potassium chloride since we are on septic and my septic company cautioned about introducing salt from a softener to the aerobic septic system.


Setup:

Fleck 7000SXT, 48000 Grain Mid Plate Vortex Water Conditioner wiTh 13x65 Mid Plate Vortech Tank, 1.5 Cu Ft High Capacity 10% Cross Linked Resin, 1.5 Cu Ft High Activity Carbon,
18x33 Polyethylene Brine Tank with Safety Cut-Off, Bypass, 1" Tail Pieces.
Trojan Max E4, 1" UV light

BFLC sticker shows: .5 gpm




Thanks in advance,

Brandon
 
Last edited:

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
Is the softener resin and the Carbon in the same tank, separated by the Vortech 'mid plate'?

You specified 2 different control valves which would be understandable if each media is within a separate tank with each using its own control valve. As such, 13X65 tanks would be unusually large for only 1.5 cuft of media.

Perhaps you could post some photos and also detail the current program settings for the control valve(s).

As you mentioned an 'aerobic' septic system, does your system use an air pump to inject air into the septic tank? Conventional septic systems are typically anaerobic.

There are various threads in this forum that discuss concerns in using Sodium Chloride (sodium salt) with a septic system. Many forum participants who are in the industry have reported no negative experience using salt. There is a university study which actually supports sodium use when a softener is programmed with an efficient regeneration salt setting as the sodium appeared to feed the bacteria and enzymes which digest the sewage.
 
Last edited:

TxHr

New Member
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Texas
Is the softener resin and the Carbon in the same tank, separated by the Vortech 'mid plate'?

You specified 2 different control valves which would be understandable if each media is within a separate tank with each using its own control valve. As such, 13X65 tanks would be unusually large for only 1.5 cuft of media.

Perhaps you could post some photos and also detail the current program settings for the control valve(s).

As you mentioned an 'aerobic' septic system, does your system use an air pump to inject air into the septic tank? Conventional septic systems are typically anaerobic.

There are various thread in this forum that discuss concerns in using Sodium Chloride (sodium salt) with a septic system. Many forum participants who are in the industry have reported no negative experience using salt. There is a university study which supports sodium use when the softener is programmed with an efficient regeneration setting. The salt appeared to feed the bacteria and enzymes which digest the sewage.

Hello,

Thanks for your response. I apologize for the confusion of the two valves (I edited the original post to only show the 7000sxt). Originally the system was designed with the 5600 and I opted for the 7000sxt. The system is a 13x65 tank and it is separated by the vote had mid plate, essentially making the bottom of the tank the softener and the top a carbon filter.

The septic is an aerobic system with a pump for drawing air. Our septic company also recommended running the water softener drain to the holding tank portion of the septic (same place treated water goes before being discharged to lawn) as to not overload the trash tank.

The current settings for my setup are:
DF = GAL
VT = dF2b
CT = Fd
C = 35
H = 15
RS = SF
SF = 15
DO = 10
RT = 2:00
B1 = 15
BD = 55
B2 = 12
RR = 12
BF = 15
FM = t1.2

Thanks again,

Brandon
 
Last edited:

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Is the softener resin and the Carbon in the same tank, separated by the Vortech 'mid plate'?

You specified 2 different control valves are being used which would be understandable if each media is within a separate tank with each using its own control valve. As such, a 13X65 tank would be unusually large for only 1.5 cuft of media.

I think the "mid plate" separates the two media. I agree that the use of two different controller model numbers is confusing. I am guessing that the system was offered with either controller, and TxHr bought the 5600SXT version.

Fleck 7000SXT 48000 Grain Mid Plate Vortex Water Conditioner with: 5600SXT Metered Control Valve, 13x65 Mid Plate Vortech Tank, 1.5 Cu Ft High Capacity 10% Cross Linked Resin, 1.5 Cu Ft High Activity Carbon,
18x33 Polyethylene Brine Tank with Safety Cut-Off, Bypass, 1" Tail Pieces.
Trojan Max E4, 1" UV light
1. Why do you have the activated carbon section?
Do you have a chlorine or peroxide injector also? Is your well shallow?

2. Do you know what your DLFC value is? I would expect 5 GPM with a 13 inch softener tank. A 10x54 inch 1.5 cuft softener would be about half of that backwash rate. However a 13 inch GAC tank needs about 8 GPM. Hmmm what do do??? What did the seller do???

I am guessing a salesman came to your house, and it was a different person who did the install. Right?

If you had a 10 inch diameter tank, I would suggest these settings for a 5600SXT:
System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft = 6 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC = 0.5 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin = 1.5 ; ft3 resin = (nominal grains)/32,000
Raw hardness = 16 ; including any compensation
People = 4 ; gallons affects reserve calc
Estimated gal/day = 180 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Estimated days/regen = 10.4 ; Computed days ignoring reserve

Fleck 5600SXT Settings:

DF = Gal ; Units
VT = dF1b ; Downflw/Upflw, Single Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
NT = 1 ; Number of tanks
C = 30.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 16 ; Hardness-- compensate if needed
RS = rc ; rc says use gallons vs percent
RC = 240 ; Reserve capacity gallons
DO = 21; Day Override (it is a well with low iron)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
BW = 5 ; Backwash (minutes)
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
RR = 5 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 6 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = usually t0.7 ; flow meter, make note of what is there


With your 13 inch tank, I wonder if you will get the full benefit from the brine draw due to the short column of resin. If your Hach H5B hardness test shows any residual hardness, I would increase the BF a bit to compensate.

3. What numbers are there already??? Record those before making changes!

The septic is an aerobic system with a pump for drawing air. Our septic company also recommended running the water softener drain to the holding tank portion of the septic (same place treated water goes before being discharged to lawn) as to not overload the trash tank.
That is not a bad idea. Some suggest that, and I don't think anybody warns against that.

Besides costing 5 times as much, potassium salt's solubility changes with temperature significantly. Often people who use potassium salt should use brine-first brining rather than filling the brine tank at the end of the cycle. If your brine tank was in a place that is subject to significant temperature changes, that would be important. If your brine tank is in the basement, that is less likely to be a problem. If it is outdoors, it would be a definite problem.
 
Last edited:

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
Originally the system was designed with the 5600 and I opted for the 7000sxt.
Thank you for the clarification. The 5600 valve would not be appropriate as its rated maximum tank diameter is 10" when used for a filter application (ie: Carbon) or 12" when used as a softener.

Softener resin is formulated to use sodium for regeneration and as such, will never be as efficient when using potassium as the regenerant. Substantially more potassium would always be required vs sodium.

Potassium can be also more problematic to use as it may bridge more readily than sodium.
The amount of potassium dissolved is also dependent on water temperature with warmer water dissolving more potassium. Due to these concerns, brine fill should occur at the start of the regeneration cycle, not at the end as is typical when using sodium.

There are other forum participants who are more experienced in potassium than I am so I would suggest obtaining their advice if you continue to want to use potassium which is likely 4X more expensive than sodium to obtain.

ps: your hardness setting (H) is set to 15 grains while you indicated the water hardness is 16 grains.
 
Last edited:

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Bannerman's points are all good.

I could re-do the chart for the 7000SXT, but suppose you tell us what is currently in place?
Fleck 7000SXT Settings:
DF =
VT =
CT =
C =
H =
RS =
CR =
DO =
RT =
B1 =
Bd =
B2 =
RR =
BF =
FM =
 

TxHr

New Member
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Texas
Thanks for your reply. We opted for the 7000SXT and not the 5600.

1. Why do you have the activated carbon section?
Do you have a chlorine or peroxide injector also? Is your well shallow?

Our well is 830' deep with the pump sitting at 550'. We wanted a softener and a whole home filter to improve taste and water quality. We opted not to go with chlorine or peroxide and use a UV light instead for disinfecting.

2. Do you know what your DLFC value is? I would expect 5 GPM due to the 13 inch tank. A 10x54 inch 1.5 cuft softener would be about half of that backwash rate.

DFLC = 3.5 GPM

BFLC = .5 GPM

3. What numbers are there already??? Record those before making changes!

Here numbers are what was programmed in the 7000 SXT now:
DF = GAL
VT = dF2b
CT = Fd
C = 35
H = 15
RS = SF
SF = 15
DO = 10
RT = 2:00
B1 = 15
BD = 55
B2 = 12
RR = 12
BF = 15
FM = t1.2

In my previous house we had a similar setup but used very little potassium. I'm regenerating every 10 days (we use very little water now) and I'm buying a 40lb bag of potassium once a month which prompted me to question the settings.


Thanks again,

Brandon
 

TxHr

New Member
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Texas
Bannerman's points are all good.

I could re-do the chart for the 7000SXT, but suppose you tell us what is currently in place?
Fleck 7000SXT Settings:
DF =
VT =
CT =
C =
H =
RS =
CR =
DO =
RT =
B1 =
Bd =
B2 =
RR =
BF =
FM =

The info
Bannerman's points are all good.

My current Fleck 7000SXT settings are:
DF = GAL
VT = dF2b
CT = Fd
C = 35
H = 15
RS = SF
SF = 15
DO = 10
RT = 2:00
B1 = 15
BD = 55
B2 = 12
RR = 12
BF = 15
FM = t1.2
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Our well is 830' deep with the pump sitting at 550'. We wanted a softener and a whole home filter to improve taste and water quality. We opted not to go with chlorine or peroxide and use a UV light instead for disinfecting.
I am not a pro. So my opinions are not authoritative, and may be overkill at times and wrong at times.

From that depth, I would not think you would need the UV either... its not going to hurt. I would santize the well at least once after the work is done.
http://www.moravecwaterwells.com/index.php/maintainance/disinfection-and-testing is my favorite method, tho I do some variations. If your well is 5 inchs or bigger, I would use chlorine pellets that drop to the bottom as part of the process.

I don't know what the GAC is supposed to remove. At that depth, it must be hydrogen sulfide that you are treating.
DFLC = 3.5 GPM
I am confident that that should be increased to at least 5 GPM. Since the GAC would be better backwashed at a higher rate, I don't know what is best in your case. I know 5 GPM would be an improvement. I would like to think that your salesman would get that changed out free since it is a screw-up. Maybe a higher rate relying on the mid plate to serve to keep the softener beads in place. In retrospect, I think separate units would have been the better way to go.

Makes me wonder about the injector size. If you detect a salt taste in the water, you would want to increase the BD time. You could taste the backwash drain water from near the end of the brining cycle.

This is initial thoughts:

VT = difff would give brine fill first. I am not sure if some part would need to be changed for that, but I don't think so. This is to minimize the bridging problem with potassium. Can we interest you in sodium?
CT = Fd
C = 35 [this would coincide with using 8 pounds per cubic ft of sodium salt]
H = 16
RS = [what you have is OK, but I will make another suggestion in a follow-up]
B1 = 8 [would use less water than 15 and still be enough]
BD = 60 [or maybe more -- depending]
B2 = 5 [would use less water and still be enough]
RR = 12
BF = 10 [would be 8 with sodium salt in 10 inch tank. seat of pants compensation]
FM = t1.2

The follow up would have numbers for less salt. Can't talk you into sodium?
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
Thanks for clarifying that you have potassium experience.

I'm regenerating every 10 days (we use very little water now)
As there is no iron entering the softener, unless there is an unspecified reason to rely on the override to initiate the regen cycle, I would suggest increasing the DO setting so that regeneration is initiated by actual usage.

I agree with Reach4 that the current backwash rate is too low for the GAC in a 13" diameter tank. While I understand that a Vortech under-bed requires lower backwash velocity than a gravel under-bed, approx. 8 gpm would be more appropriate for GAC in a 13" diameter tank.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Would the GAC have a recommended maximum time between backwashes? Usually that would be done on a timed basis.


Regarding setting up for potassium (KCl) vs NaCl, I have read suggestions to increase the brine fill by 10% to 30% when using KCl. The sodium ion is a little more active. Plus the potassium is heavier, so there are fewer ions per pound.

That other problem motivating the difff brine fill first setting is the change in solubility with temperature. If the KCl dissolves and then comes out of solution due to cooling, you can get the potassium salt hardening up. Here is a table that I developed from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_tableimg_6.png

See https://terrylove.com/forums/index....sxt-potassium-setting-help.56294/#post-414683
 
Last edited:

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Here is what I think I would go with for your system, with doubts about DO for the GAC.

System info (not programmed)
equiv NaCl salt lb/cuft : 6
BLFC : 0.5
cubic ft resin : 1.5
Raw hardness : 16.0
Estimated gal/day : 240.0
Estimated days each regen : 7.1

Fleck 7000SXT Settings:
DF = Gal
VT = dFFFF (brine fill first)
CT = Fd
C = 30.0
H = 16.0
RS = cr
CR = 0.0
DO = 14 (??GAC backflush requirement unknown)
RT = 2:00
B1 = 8.0
Bd = 60.0
B2 = 5.0
RR = 10.0
BF = 8 (6 for NaCl in 10 inch tank, but compensating)
FM = t1.2 (usual)
 

TxHr

New Member
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Texas
Thank you so much for all of the help. I will get this programmed and see how everything feels. Is there a test I can perform to check for efficiency?

Since the drain line is plumbed directly to the pump holding tank for the septic is there any concern about discharging the solution on the grass should I make the switch from potassium to sodium? Will the sodium solution cause harm to septic and/or vegetation (spray heads discharge onto front yard).

One last thing I almost forgot about. The technician cut the rod that attaches to the brine tank shorter. Is there a reason for this and could it cause issues? A few inches were removed.


Thanks again,

Brandon
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Thank you so much for all of the help. I will get this programmed and see how everything feels. Is there a test I can perform to check for efficiency?
Hach 5-b http://www.hach.com/total-hardness-test-kit-model-5-b/product?id=7640219508 hardness test done when the softener will be regenerating soon tests for residual hardness.

For salt efficiency, the least BF that keeps the hardness less than one, even late in the cycle, would be most efficient.

Since the drain line is plumbed directly to the pump holding tank for the septic is there any concern about discharging the solution on the grass should I make the switch from potassium to sodium? Will the sodium solution cause harm to septic and/or vegetation (spray heads discharge onto front yard).
When you say pump holding tank for the septic, do you you mean the sealed pit that holds the grinder pump that gets sewage from the basement floor up high enough to gravity feed to the septic system. Or are you referring to an unsealed pit that has a sump pump that pumps ground water out of the basement but does not service a toilet? I presume you don't mean a tank with water than that goes directly to the lawn surface. Tell us more about that system.

The technician cut the rod that attaches to the brine tank shorter. Is there a reason for this and could it cause issues? A few inches were removed.
Are you talking about part of the brine float mechanism that insures that the brine tank does not over-fill? Or are you talking about a tube that carries brine?
 

TxHr

New Member
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Texas
When you say pump holding tank for the septic, do you you mean the sealed pit that holds the grinder pump that gets sewage from the basement floor up high enough to gravity feed to the septic system. Or are you referring to an unsealed pit that has a sump pump that pumps ground water out of the basement but does not service a toilet? I presume you don't mean a tank with water than that goes directly to the lawn surface. Tell us more about that system.

With our aerobic system the pump holding tank is just after the clarification chamber. The clarification chamber is the third tank where the clean treated septic water is sent to for chlorination before being sent to the pump tank (last tank in our setup) and then onto the yard. The softener is plumbed into the pump tank and not the trash tank (first tank) where the house sewer line is plumbed into.

Are you talking about part of the brine float mechanism that insures that the brine tank does not over-fill? Or are you talking about a tube that carries brine?

The part of the brine float mechanism was shortened to move the float higher in the brine tank. I was just curious if this could be a problem?


Thanks,

Brandon
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
With our aerobic system the pump holding tank is just after the clarification chamber. The clarification chamber is the third tank where the clean treated septic water is sent to for chlorination before being sent to the pump tank (last tank in our setup) and then onto the yard.
Like this then. http://www.carnesenterprise.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/aerobic_system.jpg Chlorine is not so good for grass either. If you are applying the solution up higher, you might need to go to a salt tolerant grass or other vegetation there.

But yes, potassium chloride is better for grass than sodium chloride. When the NaCL goes into a leach field, it does not seem to bother the grass. I presume that is because the sodium goes down during rains.

The part of the brine float mechanism was shortened to move the float higher in the brine tank. I was just curious if this could be a problem?

The softener injects water to make brine each regen. Then if things are working, the softener sucks out all of the brine during a cycle. If something goes wrong with the brine sucking, the float keeps the softener from adding enough water to leak out of the brine tank. Before you were putting 7.5 gallons of water in and that would expand to 8.66 gallons of brine in an NaCl system... probably something similar with KCl. The salt in the tank fills up much of the space, so the installer was worried that the level of the brine could be limited by the original float position.

With your new less-brine settings, that will not be important. I don't even have a safety float. Yes, I should with my old softener, but it has not been a problem so far.
 
Last edited:

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,795
Reaction score
768
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
Is there a test I can perform to check for efficiency?
Salt efficiency is based upon the programmed capacity between regeneration vs the number of pounds of salt needed to provide that capacity.

For instance, a 1.5 cuft softener would require 9 lbs salt to regenerate 30K grains capacity, therefore 30,000 / 9 = 3,333 grains per pound salt efficiency.
That same 1.5 cuft softener could deliver 40,500 grains when using 15 lbs salt - 40,500 / 15 = 2,700 grains per pound salt efficiency.
Although the higher capacity setting is less salt efficient, more capacity is available between regenerations so the regeneration frequency would be less often thereby making the water efficiency higher.
 

ditttohead

Water systems designer, R&D
Messages
6,088
Reaction score
455
Points
83
Location
Ontario California
Download page 39 of this catalog for an explanation of NACL vs KCL. Simple article I wrote while back that explains this topic in a simple way.

KCL or NACL both cause problems with lawns. Soil type etc all come into play. In general, if you have a big enough lawn, the solution to the polution is dilution.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks