Genesis Water Softeners

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, Questions and Answers' started by JohnFromOKC, Aug 9, 2016.

  1. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

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    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
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    Ontario California
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    I would recommend using an NSF 61 certified lubricant.
     
  2. old

    old New Member

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    NE
    Looks like a canature "hydrotech" 785.
     
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  3. Jason J

    Jason J New Member

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    Nov 25, 2016
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    Illinois
    Just to add a little insight into the Genesis water softeners. They are no more made in China than Fleck or Clack. We actually have documentation that was sent to our plumbing company in the past couple years now stating that Clack and also Fleck have parts made in China. Fleck has a location in Shanghi China that makes many of their components. The Genesis systems are built in the US with parts from overseas so not sure they are any different than a Fleck or Clack. They are up flow so they are a step above the down flow systems out there. To say they are a knockoff is not accurate. I have seen all 3 systems and they are all very unique in their own design. Fleck and Clack are basic metered water softeners. The Genesis is a high efficiency that uses far less salt. It just comes down to how much you want to spend upfront. In my research the Genesis are made by Hydrotech water in Minnesota or Indiana. The few that we have put in for our customers have been fine and our customers like not having to add as much salt.
     
  4. Jason J

    Jason J New Member

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    Illinois
  5. blaze4545

    blaze4545 New Member

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    Water Treatment Consultant
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    Ontario, Canada
    New to this forum, but can confirm that Genesis is just a Canature/Hydrotech/Watergroup water softener (control valve). Hearing mixed things, but from my understanding it is a reverse engineered and slightly modified Fleck which Canature/Water Group sells as their own control valve or resells to plumbing stores as "Genesis" series valves.

    Have not heard any good or bad on these control valves but in my case these valves cost significantly more than the trusted Clack, Erie and Fleck valves so not worth pushing them on my customers.

    Distributors can order these directly from Water Group as the Canature Control valves, or through local plumbing stores (Woseleys, Near North etc) as Genesis control valves. These "Chinese Knock-Off" valves are one of the main reasons that Pentair cut off Canature a while back.
     
  6. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Occupation:
    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Canature makes their valves, tanks, accessories etc in China. They assemble the valves in China.

    Fleck makes the valves and many of the components in the USA, assemble in the USA etc. The electronic boards were made in China, that has since been moved to Mexico.

    Pentair is a multi billion dollar corporation with assembly and manufacturing all over the world including USA, China, India, Italy, etc... The Fleck and Autotrol portions of their business is miniscule compared to their other businesses but they have made great efforts to keep manufacturing and assembly in the US. Clack is more USA made than Fleck. Other than the transformer, I believe the entire valve including the boards are USA made. That being said, Clack is also a huge company with partnerships that include companies in China.


    As to upflow... this is an old topic that should really be left for marketing. Upflow's efficiency gains are minimal and most valves are available in either up or downflow. Most companies chose downflow due to the lower potential for problems and simplicity. In most applications, both up or down will use the same amount of salt since the efficiency gains are far outweighed by the required reserve capacity losses. This is not worth going over for the thirtieth time in this forum so lets just leave it at that, or if anyone wants more details can they can simply come to one of my free training seminars, we usually tough on the subject in great detail for about 30 minutes during an 8 hour training session.

    Canature makes knockoffs. This is what they are good at. Just because they put a different shaped cover on and a different electronic board does not change that.

    I have worked with Canature for many years, not a company that I would bother dealing with in the future.
     
  7. Jason J

    Jason J New Member

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    Nov 25, 2016
    Location:
    Illinois
    Actually Hydrotech valves are not knockoffs of Fleck any more than a Clack WS-1 is a knockoff of a Fleck. My observation after having used all of these valves, the original Canature valve was a 5600 copy but their subsiquent valves are nothing like the Fleck or Clack designs other than they are piston valves. What is interesting is that our Fleck rep actually told us the reason Fleck stopped making the 7000 and 5000 is so they could standardize and improve the Fleck 5800 line to include upflow more easily and make them more efficient. We realize people want basic system like Fleck but also want something more efficient so we offer the upflow systems. BTW Hydrotech is in the USA with manufacturing here in the USA and overseas. Just like Fleck and Clack. Hope this helps
     
  8. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Occupation:
    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Upflow has been a common item with Fleck and Clack valves for decades. Upflow is an amazing design on paper but in the real world, it is rarely used for anything other than marketing purposes. I do training seminars all over the world and this is a common topic that I train on. To go into all the nuances of the pros and cons takes a couple hours and few people have enough interest or the time to go through it. In general I consolidate into a 10 minute section of the seminar that explains that if marketing is your primary concern and you don't mind dealing with a lot more potential problems and you think a percent or two of "potential" efficiency gain is important to you... without using sensors it really does not matter. Sensors... another long training seminar, single vs double, blah blah blah... :)

    FYI, one of the original automatic water softener valves was upflow. If you have been in the industry long enough you would remember the Schurz valves. I never sold them as they were on their way out when I started in the 80's, but I have rebuilt probably thousands of them. Fleck bought them out and promptly killed the line. I assume they bought it for a special plastic that Schurz had for hot water applications, but this is only speculation.

    Just keep selling the Canature and supporting their business model, and no, they are not made in the USA. No big deal, and their is no need to defend their products here. Having been to the factory in China and working with some of their top brass for years I am fairly sure I would have a decent understanding of their business.
     
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