Complete redo of water plant - replace pressure tank with CSV

[ace400xs]

We purchased our house about a year ago and have known from the beginning that the water plant was going to need some work. This house was built in the 70's and it doesn't look like the plumbing has really received much love. I am now in the process of planning a complete redo of the water plant with the intention of solving several problems

1) Low flow - 2.45gpm
2) Low water pressure if more than one fixture is in use
3) High iron
4) Clogged and corroded pipes

I just wanted to get some feedback on my plan from the experts.

Solving #1 (Low flow) - Replace well pump
I know the pump at the bottom of our 130ft well is a 1/2HP model from a manufacture that no longer makes pumps (don't have the name) and it is really old, like the date code on it is from 1984. It surely must be worn out by now, especially since it has been cycling like crazy due to other leaks downstream at the pressure tank. I would like to think that replacing this with an adequate pump will get me back up to a reasonable flow. I will have the a local pump man do this as I don't really want to mess with anything down the bore. He was out here once before when we first bought the house to fix an issue with air in the water. I wish I had replaced the pump then when he had it out, but I was still new to the whole well thing and wanted to research things.

Solving #2 - Replace the corroded 40g galvanized pressure tank with a CSV like the Pside-Kick.
After pricing out replacement pressure tanks like the Well-X-trol line, it seems the Pside-Kick will actually save me money and space in addition to providing constant pressure. This is assuming that with a new pump, the flow is capable of keeping up.

Solving #3 - I am still kicking around a few ideas here, but I have thought about adding a storage tank, just to have a reserve of water in case of emergency. It will only be 300 gallons max as that is all we have room for in the house and I don't want to bury one. I was thinking I could have the storage tank also serve the purpose of an iron filter by either aerating or chlorinating (or both) and then letting the iron precipitate out where I can clean it out periodically. Alternatively, I could install some other form of iron filtration. This idea hasn't been fully fleshed out yet.

Solving #4 - I think a contributing factor to the pressure issue is that their is a fair amount of buildup in the copper pipes I have had to cut into so far. I will probably re-plumbing on a case by case basis with PEX and installing a manifold in with home runs.

We do have a water softener installed after the pressure tank but it is currently being bypassed due to leaks and general disrepair of the system.

I know there is a lot here but I would welcome any feedback from those who have dealt with these issues before.

Thanks,
J

 

[Reach4]

Solving #1 (Low flow) - Replace well pump
I know the pump at the bottom of our 130ft well is a 1/2HP model from a manufacture that no longer makes pumps (don't have the name) and it is really old, like the date code on it is from 1984. It surely must be worn out by now, especially since it has been cycling like crazy due to other leaks downstream at the pressure tank.

Usually when people say low flow, they are referring to the ability of the well to produce water. I am glad that you are suspecting the pump rather than the well being pumped dry and only replenishing at 2.45 GPM.

Note that the important depth for pump selection is not the depth of the well or the depth that the pump is set at, but the water level.

I presume your well has a steel casing. What is the ID or OD? If you have a 4 inch ID steel casing, you want to not use a 3.9 inch diameter pump. There are some "4 inch" slimline/trimline pumps that are 3.75 inch diameter, and there is a pump series that is 2.9 inch diameter that is often suggested for 4 inch steel casing wells.

Here is a table of two 7 GPM pumps. Note the horizontal heading is depth to water.

I think the 7 GPM 1/2 HP pump might be the better fit for you.

If the pump end is worn out, if adventurous, you might even consider replacing only the pump end. The interface is usually standard between brands. That Franklin motor may have more good life on it. I have never done it.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ace400xs]

So you were able to tell from that photo that is is a Franklin pump? Don't they still make pumps? I wonder why the pump guy said they were no longer made? If I am going to go to the trouble of pulling the pump again, I would just assume replace the whole thing unless there is some advantage to keeping the motor other than cost?

I wish I had written down more information when he pulled the pump last time as I don't know where the water level is. I seem to recall it being somewhere around 60ft but that is mostly a guess. I've never run the well dry so I don't think it is an issue with the well not being able to produce the flow. I ran a test by running the water at the tub closest to the pressure tank until the pump kicked on, then measured how much water I got over a period of time. That worked out to about 2.45gpm. It seems what this is telling me is that the pump is only capable of pumping water at that rate.

 

[Reach4]

So you were able to tell from that photo that is is a Franklin pump? Don't they still make pumps?

I was pretty much guessing, but back then, they made the great majority of 4 inch submersible pump motors. They did not make pumps, but the pump makers mostly used Franklin motors.

When Franklin got into the pump business, the pump makers were not liking supporting a competitor. Some got together and started making their own motors. There were some growing pains on the Centripro motors. I don't know how the current production is doing, but it must be pretty good; you don't read a lot of negatives now, it seems.

http://justicewater.com/articles/baad-pumps is an interesting article and I like it. It is not very recent. So things have changed since the article was writen. Some virus checkers give a virus warning; I think it is a false positive.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...articles/baad-pumps+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us is the cached version if you worry.



Click Inbox above.

 

[Boycedrilling]

From your photo is is easy to tell that the MOTOR is a Franklin brand, manufactured in May(E) of 1984. Over 32 years ago. It is not discernsble what brand the PUMP end is. However it has a plastic pump end. It has served more than its normal life.

Without knowing what the static water level is and the pumping water level, at a set pumping rate, it is only a guess what the WELL is capable of yielding.

On low yielding wells, it is very common to pump into a reservoir or atmospheric pressure tank for storage, then repump out of it.

 

[Reach4]

I would also comment that there are devices that can monitor the motor current and shut down the pump for a while if the well runs out of water. It then turns the pump back on automatically.

There is a cheaper thing where the pressure switch locks off if the water pressure falls abnormally low. You need to operate a lever to re-start. It usually would trip off, although it is possible that that it would keep the pump running if the water ran out in some situation. You did not say that you have ever run out of water.

 

[Valveman]

All pumps use to have Franklin motors on them. It is probably an Aermotor pump or some other brand that is no longer made. The 7 GPM, 1/2HP is probably the right size pump for that depth. I would not reuse the old motor. Replace both the pump and motor. Then you can see if the pump was clogged up and would only produce 2.45 GPM, or if the well will only produce 2.45 GPM. If the well will produce 6-8 GPM you don't need a storage tank. If the well will only produce 2-3 GPM, then the storage tank is a good idea. Then storage tank is also a good way to aerate the water to help with iron and such.

Going from a galvanized tank to a bladder style tank, as with the Pside-Kick kit, you need to make sure you do not have a bleeder orifice in the pipe about 5' down the well. Bleeders are needed for galve tanks, but not for bladder tanks. If there is no bleeder and you use the storage tank for aeration, the Pside-Kick kit would work great with the pump that boost out of the cistern. And if the well is a low producer, the Cycle Sensor will protect the well pump from running dry.

 

[ace400xs]

When the pump man was out last year, he removed something and I think it was the bleeder because it was there because of the galvanized tank. He said I would be good to go if I wanted to replace with a bladder tank but he didn't say anything about doing it right away. I didn't quite understand how he could remove it, but leave the galvanized tank if it was needed for the galvanized tank.

I'm glad to hear you think the Pside-Kick would be a good replacement. It almost seemed too good to be true after I had priced out the bladder tanks.

 

[ace400xs]

So it took a while to get back to this project due to life, but I finally got the corroded old galvanized tank and plumbing out of there over the weekend and replaced with a Pside-Kick. I must say, I wish I would have done it a long time ago. Wow do I have water pressure now and I can run more than one fixture at a time without completely losing pressure. We even ran the washing machine, dishwasher and took a shower at the same time last night. Glorious. Based on these results, it seems the well pump is working just fine.

I need to go back in this evening redo the PE fittings connection from the well plumbing up to the CSV. I have the original 90 elbow, the old check valve, and a new ball valve prior to entering the CSV and all of the barbed fittings are seeping. I would really like to use brass but that is going to get pretty expensive since there would be a total of 6 plastic fittings to replace. Should I perhaps convert to something else after the well PE pipe comes out of the wall? Based on some other posts I've read on here, I was going to try redoing the connections by using a heat gun on fresh pipe to keep the temp down (I used a torch) and then double clamp them.

After this is buttoned up, my next step is the iron treatment system, then water softener and finally starting to replace some of the copper that is in the worst shape and most clogged.

J

 

[Reach4]

I need to go back in this evening redo the PE fittings connection from the well plumbing up to the CSV. I have the original 90 elbow, the old check valve, and a new ball valve prior to entering the CSV

There should be no shut-off valve between the pump and the CSV. There should be no shut-off valve between the pump and the pressure switch.

 

[ace400xs]

Yes, after I posted this I started questioning this. I'm honestly not sure why I put it there other than I had it on the drawing I did months ago. Now after doing some additional research I'm thinking the check valve is also unnecessary. That would eliminate most of the fittings.

I just picked up some quality SS clamps and new fittings so I can redo this evening.

 

[JRC3]

Just curious if you checked your well for iron bacteria because of problem #4. Your pump looked pretty clean so that's probably a good sign, I guess.

 

[ace400xs]

I don't believe we have iron bacteria based on the descriptions I have read. There is no slime in the toilet tank, however it is stained orange. For what it is worth, we also had the local water treatment company out for an estimate and he also said no iron bacteria, but we definitely have iron. I was planning to send the water off for further testing once I got the pressure tank squared away.

The copper pipes I cut out were probably half of there original area due to the the buildup inside of them. but it was more of a gritty buildup, not really slimy. I will try to snap a picture of one of them this evening.

 

[Reach4]

After doing your work, I suggest sanitizing your well and piping.

 

[ace400xs]

Just finished redoing the PE pipe and removing the check valve and ball valve. The PE fittings are dry as a bone now.

As promised, here is a pic of the rather disgusting brass manifold that was connected to the old galvanized tank.

 

[Greenmonster123]

Looks like iron bacteria

 

[ace400xs]

The odd thing about it is isn't really slimy or gelatinous, more like a thick layer of crusty iron flakes. Also the tanks of the toilets don't have any kind of slime in them but they are definitely stained. The PE pipe is pretty clean inside, it is from the brass fittings on the pressure tank all the way through the copper piping where the pipes look like this.

 

[ace400xs]

Removed

 

[Reach4]

When I did my well sanitizing recirculation, I used a used filter cartridge to filter my recirculation water. It picked up some material that is not quite like your stuff. My suspicion is that it was a mix of clay and ferric iron (tiny rust). Maybe your mix would be ferric iron plus a smaller amount of clay? It was not a lot of material, but I had the housing, and I had the old cartridge. The surface layer of orangish stuff was maybe 1/16 inch. That was a 50-5 micron filter, so there could have been finer stuff that made its way into the deeper parts of the cartridge. I figured it would be better to take out what I could during recirc. It was informative in addition. I think filter elements serve as a QC function even when there is not much material to remove.

I figure the chlorine+vinegar plus the flow loosened some stuff that got recirculated.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-clarifying-water-and-more.65986/#post-491076 The same picture is on #9 and #4.

 

[ace400xs]

Based on its appearance and texture, I think it could be some mixture of iron and clay. I have plans on doing a complete well sanitization and cleaning in the spring as the weather right now would make it a pretty miserable affair.

I am proceeding on with my redo of the water plant now that I at least have a decent supply of water. I am thinking of installing a sediment filter right right after the CSV just to make sure none of the crap makes it into the rest of the system and clogs things up.

I am going to move this conversation over to the Water Softener forum as I am starting to get into sizing for the iron removal system and water softener. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....iron-treatment-and-water-softener-suggestions

Thanks to everyone for there suggestions and ideas.
J