Cantilever insulation/sealing?

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dAgent

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XPS only overperforms it's rated R in the first decade or less. While it's performance still increases as the average temp through the foam falls, as it's climate damaging HFC blowing agents slowly leak, the overall performance eventually falls to R4.2, at mean temp of 75F test condition required by the FTC for labeling purposes, R4.5 at a mean temp of 40F, R4.7 at a mean temp through the foam of 25F. At temperatures that matter from a dew-point control point of view don't assume better than R4.7 for an inch of the pink stuff, no matter what the manufacturer guarantees or claims.

Most pentane-blown polyiso (which is nearly all current product out there) will perform at less than R4.5 when the mean temp through the foam is 25F, (which only occurs when it's colder than 10F outside, which is less than 5% of the time), but rises rapidly into the R5s when the average temp through the foam is above freezing. Overall, and over the long term you're better off with an inch of foil-faced polyiso, with at least a 1/4" air gap between the exterior foil and the siding (or just use vinyl siding), which gives it another ~R0.5-R1 in average thermal performance. The mean outdoor temp for Rockford IL in January is about 20F, which means the mean temp through the foam will average about 30F during the coldest month, and much warmer the rest of the time.

Polyurethane sealants remain flexible for life (especially the "windows & doors" variaties), and have much better adhesion to wood than any silicone caulks I've used. Maybe the GE Supreme is the exception that makes the rule, but just about anybody's polyurethane caulk sealant is a sure thing. It can be a bit gluey, so removing a decorative baseboard after the fact might be a destructive process, but for sealing the joists to the subfloor it's definitely the right stuff.

Thank You Dana, that is great information. I will go with the 1" polyiso. What do you think my wall r value is, curious to know the % r value of foam to the total with my particular wall assembly. I don't know how much r value is added to the r13 f.g. bats by the 1/2 fiber material, the foil faced thinner fiber, tyvek. I do have vinyl siding so I do not need the air gap, correct?

Will also use your advice on the polythene, just have to find a good quality product. I think polyurethanes have much more voc's than silicone and my wife is semi sensitive to that stuff but hopefully it won't bother her.

Also, if you could expand my prior post. There were additional questions I asked regarding the cantilever.

Thank You
 

Bobby E

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Dana I hope you’re still here! I have a situation I need resolved ASAP as I need to close the subfloor and get it carpet installed so I can move in! I’m in Bergen County NJ, Zone 5(almost 4!)

I have 2 cantilevers, one on the second story and one on the third. The one on the second story has a couple bays that have foil facing which I’ve read acts as a vapor barrier but it’s damaged. There was R30 faced fiberglass there before, 1 piece against the exterior sheathing facing in and 1 on the soffit floor facing up. It did not fill the void up to the subfloor. There is no air dam between the cantilever and interior house bays. I’ve already removed the R30 and used Dap mouse repellent soray foam to seal the joints on the bottom of the soffit floor. There’s also a balcony door to the right of the ductwork where you can see my framers nailed in a couple 2x4s for support.

My question is how would you go about insulating this? Closed cell spray foam along the exterior wall and floor? That’s probably the easiest solution but is it safe with the dryer duct and also the air register ductwork in those two or three bays? I was thinking this: remove the beat up foil as best as possible, close the damage to the sheathing with new plywood, continue sealing all the joints in the cantilever bay sheathing and floor with Dap mouse repellant spray foam (there was a ton of droppings and acorns), spray professional closed cell spray foam on the wall and floor of the cantilever. I only have access from the top of the bay, and not to all of them either so what I can do is somewhat limited if I were to do open cell and vapor barrier. I’m really unsure of what to do around the 2x4s under the balcony door too, just shoot the closed cell around it or remove it and spray? Thank you!
 

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Dana

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My question is how would you go about insulating this? Closed cell spray foam along the exterior wall and floor? That’s probably the easiest solution but is it safe with the dryer duct and also the air register ductwork in those two or three bays?

Closed cell foam is great at air sealing, but at more than 1" becomes a vapor barrier, which you would want to avoid on the exterior (meaning next to outdoor air, whether up, down or sideways) side of the assembly if you can, given that you're in climate zone 5. Sealing up the seams of the band joist and bottom sheathing with closed cell foam is fine, and won't take very much (a 12 board foot FrothPak kit would be more than enough). A serious issue with DIY spray foam this time of year is staying the required substrate temperatures. It might be safer to air seal those seams with polyurethane caulk instead of foam. If the surfaces are too cold the foam won't adhere well, and could result in incomplete curing of the foam with a long term outgassing problem. Giving it a full coverage continuous 1" for air sealing would be fine as long it's warm enough to cure, at which point you don't care too much about adhesion- closed foam is self-supporting. As long as it sticks well enough to the trussed floor joists to seal it'll be fine.

Installing air dams in the joist bays crossing over the cantilever wall is important. Cut up foam board sealed in place with FrothPak or can-foam works fine. That allows you to completely fill the overhangs with cheap blown fiber insulation. Sealing the truss joists is a PITA to be sure, and it may take a bigger DIY foam kit to deal with sealing around the truss elements. Half-inch foil faced foam board or even corrugated cardboard stapled to the truss elements can serve as an air barrier between & through the truss-joists, as long as the seams and edges are adequately sealed to the truss-joists, subfloor, and top plate of the supporting wall with either housewrap tape or foam (either a 2-part kit, or 1 part can foam) or combinations thereof where the complicated geometry warrants it.

With a decently tight interior air barrier in place, inexpensive blown fiber insulation can fully fill in the spaces in the truss webbing and completely fill the cantilevered cavity. If you're not crazy about drilling holes through the subfloor layer (which would have to be repaired later) it's pretty easy to blow the insulation in mesh. Blowing mesh is usually sold in large rolls, much bigger than you would ever need, but landscaping fabric works about as well, and available in smaller rolls at box stores. Use a brayer to spread wood glue evenly on the tops of the trusses and staple the landscaping fabric on the top of the trusses rolling it smooth into the glue for flatness. Give the wood glue a day to set up to avoid getting insulation between the mesh and wood when installing the insulation, which makes it harder to get a flat floor.

Starting at one end, cut a slit in the mesh between trusses just big enough to fit the hose into, and blow until the insulation stops flowing, ensuring a reasonably dense compression fit when it's time to put the subfloor down. The center of the mesh will pillow up an inch or so, but that's fine. Even though most of the other cavities will be filled-mostly by the initial blow, the density won't be uniform, so move over to the next bay, cut a slit, insert the hose the way to the bottom sheathing, then back off about 8", and blow until it packs out, stopping the flow of insulation, repeat.

With a wimpy single stage rental blower and a 2" - 3" hose you'll usually be able to get ~2.5lbs per cubic foot density out of cellulose using this method. That is about twice the density of an open blow in an attic, and sufficient for preventing settling over time. It is also dense enough to be quite air-retardent (more air retardent than fiberglass using the same method), so there won't be much convection or infiltration from any remaining leaks in the air barriers, subfloor, or bottom sheathing.

I was thinking this: remove the beat up foil as best as possible, close the damage to the sheathing with new plywood, continue sealing all the joints in the cantilever bay sheathing and floor with Dap mouse repellant spray foam (there was a ton of droppings and acorns), spray professional closed cell spray foam on the wall and floor of the cantilever. I only have access from the top of the bay, and not to all of them either so what I can do is somewhat limited if I were to do open cell and vapor barrier. I’m really unsure of what to do around the 2x4s under the balcony door too, just shoot the closed cell around it or remove it and spray? Thank you!

Leave the 2x4 under the door- it's structural, enough to support a threshold, and preserves the door geometry better. Encapsulating it in an inch of closed cell foam is sufficient.

Open cell foam can work for both air sealing and insulation, but has to be installed in ~6" lifts with a cooling/curing period between lifts (for both short term fire hazard and quality reasons.) That's only about R20, and the IRC code minimum is R30 in zone 5, so you're looking at 2 lifts. Time is money, and this is a small job, so it would probably be ~2x as expensive as a bigger job. With the open cell foam there would still need to be an air barrier and vapor retarder between the trusses where they cross the supporting wall. Unlike cellulose, open cell foam has effectively zero hygric buffering capacity, which would mean any water vapor getting into the cantilevered bays would be stored in the band joist & bottom sheathing. A full fill of cellulose would share and redistribute the moisture burden, protecting the structural wood.


With any of these solutions, make sure the ducts and dryer vents are well sealed with duct mastic (not tape) on all the seams and joints to prevent injecting moisture into that space. If you tend to be a worrier, you may want to replace the single wall dryer vent with B-vent as fire mitigation, though I don't believe that is required anywhere by code.
 

Bobby E

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I really appreciate your detailed response! I don't think I'll be able to seal off all of the bays entering into the conditioned airspace or between the truss joists as I only have access from above, being a condo I can't remove the soffit to seal under the subfloor. I did my best to cut holes and remove as much plywood as I could from above but a couple bays will be very difficult to access.. The way the builders had it was R30 mix of open and closed face insulation. The open face was against the foil wall and the paper was facing upwards but didn't reach the subfloor!

This is a condo so I can't touch anything on the outside of the building. In the first couple pics you can see where the builders made holes for a duct that ended up in the next bay. There's also a gutter on the outside of that bay. I contacted management and they're going to repair that section, but I'm not sure how yet. That foil that you see is a wall insulation that acts as a vapor barrier apparently but it’s in bad shape as you can see! I guess I’ll need to add a vapor barrier in that bay where they cut the foil off?

I read that the carpet padding I'm going to use is an 8lb Mohawk Smart Cushion padding with a moisture barrier on the top that isn’t breathable. I contacted Mohawk technical department and they've stated that it is indeed a vapor barrier. So I shouldn't be installing any vapor barrier facing upwards under the plywood subfloor correct? They can't run the padding under the installed base molding though so no vapor barrier will be present there.

I can seal the remaining air gaps with the polyurethane caulk, which would you recommend? I bought a roll of Nashua 557 duct tape to fill any openings on the ductwork.

Thank you again for taking the time to read and respond. I'll add some more pictures for reference.
 

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Bobby E

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I had my spray foam insulation guy come today and he advised on spraying 3.5-4” of closed cell on the foil faced wall, in between the truss joists and plywood bottom (over supporting wall.) He says since we’re borderline zone 4 the closed cell is the best option to fill every void and seal it all up.

That idea has me nervous because if there’s any moisture it’d be hard pressed to leave the space? And if I use the Mohawk smart cushion vapor barrier carpet padding above that space it may even compound the issue no? Really at a loss here because I can’t seal it all with rigid because of lack of access. It almost seems like just filling it snug with faced fiberglass facing up and towards the inside by the supporting wall and using a carpet pad without a vapor barrier might be the safest route?
 
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Dana

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I had my spray foam insulation guy come today and he advised on spraying 3.5-4” of closed cell on the foil faced wall, in between the truss joists and plywood bottom (over supporting wall.) He says since we’re borderline zone 4 the closed cell is the best option to fill every void and seal it all up.

That idea has me nervous because if there’s any moisture it’d be hard pressed to leave the space? And if I use the Mohawk smart cushion vapor barrier carpet padding above that space it may even compound the issue no? Really at a loss here because I can’t seal it all with rigid because of lack of access. It almost seems like just filling it snug with faced fiberglass facing up and towards the inside by the supporting wall and using a carpet pad without a vapor barrier might be the safest route?

A couple of considerations:

* **Unless the closed cell foam is one of the newer products using HFO1234ze as the blowing agent it can't be installed at 3-4" in one lift without fire safety (during curing) or quality issues (poor adhesion, shrinkage cracks, sinks from internal shrinking &/or charring.) The current standard HFC245fa blowing agent is also an extreme greenhouse gas, making closed cell foam one of the least "green" options out there:

CSMP-Insulation_090919-01.png



** In US climate zone 5 it takes a minimum of ~28% of the total R on the exterior of a wall or cantilever floor assembly to be moisture safe from interior side moisture drives using only Class-III vapor retarders (eg standard interior latex on wallboard). Any less than that wintertime moisture could accumulate at the foam/fiber boundary. (Roofs in zone 5 would require at least 40% of the total R on the underside of a roof deck or above the roof deck to be moisture safe, due to the lower temps of the roof from nighttime radiation at the cold winter sky.)

At 2" HFC blown foam is about R12, HFO blown foam is about R14, which means you'd be able to get away with R31-R36 of fiber insulation before moisture accumulation becomes a problem. A 3/4" OSB or plywood subfloor is a Class-II vapor retarder (< 1 perm, but > 0.1 perms), and 2" of closed cell foam is also in the Class-II range. So as long as the interior air barriers between the trusses are pretty tight there is still a slow but reasonable drying path. At 4" some closed cell foams come pretty close to being a true vapor barrier.

For reference: foil facers run about 0.03 perms, 6 mil polyethylene runs about 0.05 perms, 4" closed cell foam ~0.2-0.3 perms, 3/4" plywood or 2" closed cell foam ~0.5 perms, interior latex on wallboard about 3-5 perms. So the drying rate through latex on wallboard is 10x faster than through 2" closed cell foam, but 100x faster than through 6 mil polyethylene.

Given the constraints you do NOT want a vapor-tight underlayment for the carpet, since that reduces drying capacity.

*** When installed by a competent installer on a dry substrate in the correct temperature range, 2" of closed cell foam is very air tight.

I'm not clear to me on how/why you can't air seal the truss bays from conditioned space. At the end bays an air barrier can be installed against the sides of the trusses (covering the web elements) too, which keeps air (and fire) from easily moving laterally. If there's enough access from above to install spray foam, there is enough access to install air barriers.

Bottom line: All things considered, if going with a continuous layer of closed cell foam, 2" is the best compromise, not 3" or 4". At 4" it still doesn't meet the IRC code-minimum R30, but cost-wise it's already uneconomic from a lifecycle energy use point of view. It costs about 5x as much as blown cellulose or fiberglass per square foot per R.

Note also air tightness is THE first and most important thing to get right when insulating walls/ceilings/floors to be able to control the movement of heat & moisture. The crappy batts stuffed in open web truss bays with air above was pathetic- it does nothing to control the movement of air, and air-transported moisture (a mechanism of moisture transfer orders of magnitude greater than vapor diffusion.) You needn't replace the scarred up vapor barrier facers, but you DO need to make it air tight. It looks like it might be semi-rigid fiberglass with foil facers, or rigid polyisocyanurate?

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Vapor diffusion is all about surface area- even a scarred up vapor barrier is still a pretty effective air barrier. But any air leakage around the vapor barrier will move GOBS more water than air leakage even through unpainted wallboard. Order of magnitude: A single square inch air leak can easily move about as much moisture as 2500-3000 square feet of vapor diffusion through half-inch gypsum wallboard.

This is a popular graphic from Building Science Corp describing the relative levels of importance:

picture1-bsc-bulk-vapor-air-leak2.jpg


So vapor diffusion only becomes relevant (as a drying mechanism) when the assembly is already fairly air tight. Without the air tightness it really doesn't matter what the vapor retardency of the materials are- it's completely out of control, with moisture moving at the whim of the stack effect air pressures & wind.
 

Bobby E

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I can confirm with my insulation professional that his foam is HFO. The gypsum board on the bays inside of the supporting wall are double 5/8" as that's the fire code for my neighboring apartment below. In the other cantilever it's just a single 5/8" inside of the supporting wall.

I have changed my carpet padding from the memory foam with moisture barrier to one without.

So if I proceed with using the HFO closed cell spray foam on the cardboard-like foil insulation sheathing, the plywood floor and then over to the inside end of the supporting 2x4 wall, you'd recommend I use only 2" max? What would you then use to add more insulation, a fire+sound un-faced Roxul style insulation? If so how would you install it, just on top of the 2" foam on the cantilever floor/supporting wall? Or butted up against the wall as well? Do I need to wrap the ductwork in something or can the closed cell foam go right against it?

I will include more pictures to show you exactly what I'm working with and why I'd have trouble blocking off the bays. I have a lot of ducts and wiring and I can't cut the plywood in several bays as the joist is under the base molding/sheetrock. But if I apply the closed cell spray foam to the cantilever wall and floor wouldn't I in essence be making it a conditioned airspace, bringing it all together? I could apply the closed cell spray foam into the truss webbing as well on the areas inside of the cantilever if you think I should.

You're not kidding about how pathetic the builders quality was on insulation. There's so much airflow in there even with the fiberglass it's insane..my Dad must've been losing a lot of money on heating/cooling (I'm renting it from him now so I can hopefully brag a little on lowering the bills hah!) Not only that but animals were getting in very easily..they always stayed in the cantilevers though because that's where their fiberglass beds were!

Since stopping the airflow is the most important thing, should I go ahead and keep applying my Dap pest spray foam to all of the joints in each cantilever bay (minus the ones I can't reach) or should I let the professional insulator apply his closed cell sprayfoam all over instead? I'd like to get it done ASAP but it may be a waste of spray foam that I can just return.

Since that foil acts as a solid vapor barrier I won't have any issue with closed cell on top of it right? Nothing would be able to be trapped in between? And assuming I get everything done correctly and it's all air tight (I'm hoping so, but if you look at the picture of the master bedroom floor you'll see that cantilever wraps along to the side of the house for about 7' before it connects to the neighboring building..there's foil insulation sheathing there and unfaced batt) I won't have to worry about vapor diffusion too much? Because it'll only be 2" of closed cell and whatever mineral wool I throw on top?

Those graphics of how air leakage contributes to moisture intrusion are unreal! Seeing and feeling how much air leakage comes into the cantilever now kinda blows my mind, especially at 40% RH.

Side question..we've replaced many pieces of plywood and some don't align along each other too well, would you use polyurethane between the joints (actually for all plywood joints?) THANK YOU AGAIN!

*The pictures are in order of left to right: Master Bedroom cantilever, Dining Room cantilevers x2, Dining Room corner, Under Balcony door x2(upper part has foil so maybe it's exterior, then under is wood for the adjacent garage ceiling?), Master Bedroom right corner can't access, Master Bedroom opposite corner where cantilever returns to exterior wall, Master Bedroom right side corner can't access (this last pic you can see the unfaced batt, it's insulating against the same foil as other sections of the cantilever..it looks a little black possibly air leakage?!)
 

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Bobby E

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Siders came by and installed metal (hard aluminum?) and I think window tape over it all then the siding with foam backed insulation attached to it. I should be good to spray foam over that no? The pic is too large to post.
 

Dana

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Siders came by and installed metal (hard aluminum?) and I think window tape over it all then the siding with foam backed insulation attached to it. I should be good to spray foam over that no? The pic is too large to post.

If the metal is clean and not too cold the foam will adhere just fine.
 

Bobby E

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If the metal is clean and not too cold the foam will adhere just fine.

Thank you! They came this morning and sprayed around 4-5” of closed cell HFO foam on the ends, face and floor of the cantilever. I was under the impression they’d spray 2-3” but it’s definitely 4-5”. The installer said there are flame retardants in the foam.

Am I good to close it with plywood now or is there something you’d recommend?

4A05824B-B87C-43CD-8911-EFAA15682355.jpeg
 
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Dana

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A 3/4" plywood subfloor would be a code-legal fire barrier even if it wasn't fire-rated foam.

At 4" the HFO blown foam is between R26-R28, slightly below the IRC code minimum- you'd still feel the difference in floor temp on a cold day with bare feet.

But that allows you HUGE dew point margin if you decide to fill up the space with cheap fiber insulation. This is an opportunity moment- once the new flooring goes down it's too painful to add more if it turns out to have cold spots in the floor from thermal bypasses, etc.

DIY open blown fiberglass or cellulose is dirt-cheap, and filling the rest of the space with 1.2-1.5lbs density cellulose or 0.8-1lbs fiberglass would make a noticeable difference, while bringing it up to code minimum. If the total volume isn't sufficient for a home-center box store to give you a free rental, simply breaking/mixing it up in a 5 gallon bucket or 10-15 gallon trash can with a paint mixer bit in a hand drill works pretty well. Cut a 1" hole in the top of the lid to keep the insulation from flying all over the place, then pour it (don't pack it) into the space, the way this guy did it:

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Just smooth it off to keep the cellulose from getting between the subfloor & joist tops when you put the subfloor down.

Use a bead of construction adhesive on the tops of the joists before screwing or nailing the plywood down to keep it from ever squeaking.
 
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Bobby E

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A 3/4" plywood subfloor would be a code-legal fire barrier even if it wasn't fire-rated foam.

At 4" the HFO blown foam is between R26-R28, slightly below the IRC code minimum- you'd still feel the difference in floor temp on a cold day with bare feet.

But that allows you HUGE dew point margin if you decide to fill up the space with cheap fiber insulation. This is an opportunity moment- once the new flooring goes down it's too painful to add more if it turns out to have cold spots in the floor from thermal bypasses, etc.

DIY open blown fiberglass or cellulose is dirt-cheap, and filling the rest of the space with 1.2-1.5lbs density cellulose or 0.8-1lbs fiberglass would make a noticeable difference, while bringing it up to code minimum. If the total volume isn't sufficient for a home-center box store to give you a free rental, simply breaking/mixing it up in a 5 gallon bucket or 10-15 gallon trash can with a paint mixer bit in a hand drill works pretty well. Cut a 1" hole in the top of the lid to keep the insulation from flying all over the place, then pour it (don't pack it) into the space, the way this guy did it:

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Just smooth it off to keep the cellulose from getting between the subfloor & joist tops when you put the subfloor down.

Use a bead of construction adhesive on the tops of the joists before screwing or nailing the plywood down to keep it from ever squeaking.

Thanks so much for more valuable information Dana! We’ll be installing the 3/4” plywood then 8lb rebond carpet padding and carpet. But if you still think it’s smart to fill up the rest of the space maybe I should just do it now, since as you say it’s way more difficult later. I do have thermafiber on hand, would laying down a couple pieces per bay do the trick, or just go with unfaced fiberglass? I don’t have the time for the cellulose as my inspection is Thursday morning and I have a ton of work to do otherwise. Thank you again Dana!!
 

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With batts it would be important to cut the triangle pieces to snugly fit the truss webbing first, then fit it as snugly as possible between the trusses with no voids or gaps. The hardest thing to get right with batts is the near-perfect fit (nearly guaranteed with blown insulation), but any gaps become convective thermal bypasses for air to circulate freely between the warm & cold sides of the assembly.

A purpose made batt knife is a cheap & effective tool for trimming batts to fit, usually a few models available at box stores, but an 8" bread knife does almost as well. (Bread knives don't have a pointy enough tip to easily trim around electrical boxes, etc, but would be fine for trimming the triangles and fitting around ducts.) Do NOT try to trim batts to shape with a utility knife (especially with rock wool) since it will leave uneven edges. Utility knives aren't even all that great even at cutting much more compressible fiberglass R13s just for length, but are a major PITA for cutting non-square shapes or fine work around electrical/plumbing/ducts.

Cut the triangle pieces about 1/4"-1/2" bigger than the triangle shaped space it's filling in the truss to ensure a friction fit. Once you've cut the first one it's easy to just copy it for the rest. It might be useful to make a template of the slightly oversized triangle out of corrugated cardboard boxes to use as a guide. Getting the first one perfect will take about as long as the next 10- it's pretty fast if the triangles are all the same dimensions.

The trusses appear to be 2x4" (1.5" x 3.5" nominal dimensions)? R15 rock wool would be a near perfect fit for the triangles, but R23s can be fitted and trimmed or compressed where it hangs out the sides.
 

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With batts it would be important to cut the triangle pieces to snugly fit the truss webbing first, then fit it as snugly as possible between the trusses with no voids or gaps. The hardest thing to get right with batts is the near-perfect fit (nearly guaranteed with blown insulation), but any gaps become convective thermal bypasses for air to circulate freely between the warm & cold sides of the assembly.

A purpose made batt knife is a cheap & effective tool for trimming batts to fit, usually a few models available at box stores, but an 8" bread knife does almost as well. (Bread knives don't have a pointy enough tip to easily trim around electrical boxes, etc, but would be fine for trimming the triangles and fitting around ducts.) Do NOT try to trim batts to shape with a utility knife (especially with rock wool) since it will leave uneven edges. Utility knives aren't even all that great even at cutting much more compressible fiberglass R13s just for length, but are a major PITA for cutting non-square shapes or fine work around electrical/plumbing/ducts.

Cut the triangle pieces about 1/4"-1/2" bigger than the triangle shaped space it's filling in the truss to ensure a friction fit. Once you've cut the first one it's easy to just copy it for the rest. It might be useful to make a template of the slightly oversized triangle out of corrugated cardboard boxes to use as a guide. Getting the first one perfect will take about as long as the next 10- it's pretty fast if the triangles are all the same dimensions.

The trusses appear to be 2x4" (1.5" x 3.5" nominal dimensions)? R15 rock wool would be a near perfect fit for the triangles, but R23s can be fitted and trimmed or compressed where it hangs out the sides.

So the main thing is to block up the truss webbing? Or is it that and in addition to adding roxul vertically above the supporting wall? And if I cannot get this done before I need to close the floors on Thursday/Friday, just how imperative is it? Are we talking about just a loss of some efficiency or is it really to aid in moisture control as well? I’m sorry for all the questions, your time and knowledge is appreciated!
 

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So the main thing is to block up the truss webbing? Or is it that and in addition to adding roxul vertically above the supporting wall? And if I cannot get this done before I need to close the floors on Thursday/Friday, just how imperative is it? Are we talking about just a loss of some efficiency or is it really to aid in moisture control as well? I’m sorry for all the questions, your time and knowledge is appreciated!

If you're going to insulate between the trusses it's important to fill in the blocking, otherwise those voids become ample thermal bypasses, wasting much of the potential performance of the batts between the trusses.

A full fill with no voids is what it takes to avoid convective hits in performance.

This is primarily a cold-day comfort issue, not an efficiency, code, or energy use issue. The 4" of HFO almost meets code-min on an R-value basis. If the space gets fully filled with fiber insulation there will be no discernable difference in floor temp when stepping out onto the cantilevered floor, even when it's 3F outside. Without the fiber insulation you might feel the difference, given that there's an air barrier preventing convection from under the rest of the truss bay from modestly heating that section of floor.

With or without the fiber insulation the 4" of spray foam and the low-permeance (<1 perm) subfloor control moisture flows. It can't dry very quickly, but it also won't become wetted by diffusion through the subfloor. Once it all stabilizes the moisture content of the wood of the trusses won't very by more than a fraction of a percent over the course of a year. Air leaks in either the dryer vent or HVAC vents can screw that up though, so it's important that all ducts are sealed tight on every seam & joint (not just insulated) before closing it all in.
 

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If you're going to insulate between the trusses it's important to fill in the blocking, otherwise those voids become ample thermal bypasses, wasting much of the potential performance of the batts between the trusses.

A full fill with no voids is what it takes to avoid convective hits in performance.

This is primarily a cold-day comfort issue, not an efficiency, code, or energy use issue. The 4" of HFO almost meets code-min on an R-value basis. If the space gets fully filled with fiber insulation there will be no discernable difference in floor temp when stepping out onto the cantilevered floor, even when it's 3F outside. Without the fiber insulation you might feel the difference, given that there's an air barrier preventing convection from under the rest of the truss bay from modestly heating that section of floor.

With or without the fiber insulation the 4" of spray foam and the low-permeance (<1 perm) subfloor control moisture flows. It can't dry very quickly, but it also won't become wetted by diffusion through the subfloor. Once it all stabilizes the moisture content of the wood of the trusses won't very by more than a fraction of a percent over the course of a year. Air leaks in either the dryer vent or HVAC vents can screw that up though, so it's important that all ducts are sealed tight on every seam & joint (not just insulated) before closing it all in.

I did notice some rips on the outer covering of the HVAC vent and the connection of a duct (dryer or bathroom exhaust I’m not sure) was loose so I’ll need to tape those up really good in the morning. Unfortunately I can’t get to look at them under the subfloor, only where it’s open now..and my insulation guy laid down roxul on the sheetrock floor of the neighbor ceiling below. Do you think that will negatively impact any moisture that needs to escape? One of their high hat cam lights has a hole/break in it too, I think everything might be out of wack in this area and am getting kinda concerned about it again!

Do you think a carpet pad with a breathable moisture barrier is acceptable? I’d love to use it because it is antimicrobial and memory foam. I know the installer uses staples and doesn’t duct tape over the staples so it should really breathe well..I just can’t find in the instruction of the staples need to be taped or not (to stop spilled liquid from entering the pad/subfloor and not being able to evaporate quickly because of the barrier.) Thank you Dana!
 
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I did notice some rips on the outer covering of the HVAC vent and the connection of a duct (dryer or bathroom exhaust I’m not sure) was loose so I’ll need to tape those up really good in the morning. Unfortunately I can’t get to look at them under the subfloor, only where it’s open now..and my insulation guy laid down roxul on the sheetrock floor of the neighbor ceiling below. Do you think that will negatively impact any moisture that needs to escape? One of their high hat cam lights has a hole/break in it too, I think everything might be out of wack in this area and am getting kinda concerned about it again!

Do you think a carpet pad with a breathable moisture barrier is acceptable? I’d love to use it because it is antimicrobial and memory foam. I know the installer uses staples and doesn’t duct tape over the staples so it should really breathe well..I just can’t find in the instruction of the staples need to be taped or not (to stop spilled liquid from entering the pad/subfloor and not being able to evaporate quickly because of the barrier.) Thank you Dana!

If the can light isn't rated for insulation contact, use housewrap tape to seal up a cardboard box that is big enough for 3" of clearance from the fixture (top and sides), and use polyurethane caulk to seal it to the ceiling below.

If the floor and exterior band joist of the cantilever are insulated to R50 or so (doubling up some R15s, or a single well-fitted layer of R23 rock wool) , leaving a few inches of clearance between the high density batts and the subfloor is fine, and would allow you to open up the same few inches of air barrier to the open truss bay that is fully over conditioned space. That would make a terrific drying path, and the floor over the cantilever would still have the same temperature as the floor over conditioned space. But it's a potential thermal bypass if there is any leakage to the outdoors.

A vapor permeable underlayment for the carpet is (almost) always preferable to an impermeable underlayment. The vapor permeance of the 3/4" plywood or OSB is still quite low- less than half a perm when it's dry, but becomes substantially more vapor open when it's moisture levels are high, and when the proximate air is more humid. Plywood is something of a "smart" vapor retarder. At 3/4" it qualifies as a "vapour barrier" under the Canadian National Building Code (less than ~ 1 US perm as defined in the code) when dry, but it in fact allows reasonable drying rates when needed as long as it's not blocked by true vapor barriers such as sheet vinyl flooring, polyethylene sheeting, etc. In summer or when there is a lot of stored humidity under the floor it's permeance rises to 3 perms or more. At 3/4" it's not quite as vapor open as the 15/32 plywood shown below, hitting ~3 perms (not ~5) when the proximate air is 50% RH:

vapour_permeability_of_sheathing_1.jpg


As a reference, standard interior latex paint on drywall also runs 3-5 perms, which is a quite reasonable drying path.
 

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Awesome response, thank you again Dana! I did leave a few inches to the bottom of the subfloor as I couldn’t feel any air leakage (and it was very windy out!)

Could you please take a look at this and let me know if you think it’s a good idea to use in my situation? I like the idea of memory foam, anti microbial and moisture barrier that is breathable. This should be vapor permeable to a decent degree if IG says breathable no?

https://www.healthierchoice.com/hc-cushion.html#cushionfeatures
 

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The link hasn't been working the few times I've tried, but most foamy underlayments are fairly vapor permeable (some VERY vapor permeable), with some exceptions.
 

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The Mohawk smart cushion states it isn’t breathable(permeable?) but this one I linked below says it’s breathable:

Https://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/HEALT001/Prod_Tech_Spec/HCGoldSpec.pdf

I’m just cautious because under my living room there seem to be considerable air leaks through the closed cell insulation. It’ll be very hard to close now as I don’t have the funds to take care of it for a year or so. Do you think the moisture/air flow penetration would cause an issue with this pad?

*Edit- Thinking back on your 1sq inch graphic and how much moisture comes in and out, knowing I have air gaps under my living room from a crappy open cell install, does this all really matter so much? Should I just go for the ‘breathable moisture barrier’ carpet pad and be more comfortable?

Maybe in the future I am open the garage ceiling, remove the box open cell job and spray in closed cell.
 
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