Massive Water Use Increase

[LukeK]

Helping a friend.
It’s a 2 person, 3 bath home. No pool. No irrigation system. On septic. Normal usage is about 4000 gallons. Last month bill just shy of 55,000 gallons. Water department says toilet leak. Low flow indicator rock steady over 20 minutes. So no leak. No way home septic can handle that much.
Friend said no hose was used and house only has one spigot. In talking with water department meter read to them and confirmed by water department tech later and this month say used 103,000 gallons!!! Insisting they get a plumber to fix the leak. I did bucket test and hose would have to run 24/7 for 7 days or 15 days for 100k.
Water techs checked meter and said it match at 5 gallons to test meter. My question is can a meter fail by up counting usage? They say not possible only less. Thoughts?

 

[Reach4]

Keep an eye on that indicator.

Is there a softener? Irrigation system?

In talking with water department meter read to them and confirmed by water department tech later and this month say used 103,000 gallons!!! Insisting they get a plumber to fix the leak.

The water department is insisting?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[John Gayewski]

I can tell a story relayed to me from another plumber. He kept getting called to an excess water usage call. He kept looking and couldn't figure it out. Where was this water going? It was too much no one could use this much water. The more they checked the more they found out it was only happening on the weekends. The more they observed what was happening on the weekends the more they noticed that a neighboring farmer had been backing a tank on a trailer, up to the building on the weekends and filling it.

The moral of the story. I don't tell very good stories, and you need to investigate this further. You need to monitor the meter over time and see what's happening.

 

[LukeK]

No water softener or irrigation.
They are telling owner needs to get a plumber and find and fix leak. But meter shows no low flow movement so no leaks in the system. Funny about theft. County is saying toilets or someone stealing it. To do that would need to park between two houses about 100’ apart and have a 100’ garden hose. At best they would get 300 gallons per hour. Doing the math if they could park for 6 hours would get 1800 gallons so do that 27 times in a month. Not very likely. For the 100000 gallons do the 54 times in a month. No way! County just won’t budge and policy is you can get one bill correction per year. So they have $500 this month or wait to next which is over $1000. Next call will try to reach a supervisor who has a brain cell in their head and see the stupidity in this situation. Or call state utility commission for help.
Again asking can a meter (Neptune T10 5/8)fail causing a false high reading?

 

[John Gayewski]

No water softener or irrigation.
They are telling owner needs to get a plumber and find and fix leak. But meter shows no low flow movement so no leaks in the system. Funny about theft. County is saying toilets or someone stealing it. To do that would need to park between two houses about 100’ apart and have a 100’ garden hose. At best they would get 300 gallons per hour. Doing the math if they could park for 6 hours would get 1800 gallons so do that 27 times in a month. Not very likely. For the 100000 gallons do the 54 times in a month. No way! County just won’t budge and policy is you can get one bill correction per year. So they have $500 this month or wait to next which is over $1000. Next call will try to reach a supervisor who has a brain cell in their head and see the stupidity in this situation. Or call state utility commission for help.
Again asking can a meter (Neptune T10 5/8)fail causing a false high reading?

No the meters don't fail like that. It seems your having a hard time telling time. Do what you think is best.

 

[GReynolds929]

Have the toilet flappers been replaced and the toilets checked for leaks?

 

[WorthFlorida]

Read the meter yourself. Get the last two bills and compare. If it is a read only meter the meter reader made a mistake. New homes some have self readers. A wand over the meter reads the usage.

 

[LukeK]

No water softener or irrigation.
They are telling owner needs to get a plumber and find and fix leak. But meter shows no low flow movement so no leaks in the system. Funny about theft. County is saying toilets or someone stealing it. To do that would need to park between two houses about 100’ apart and have a 100’ garden hose. At best they would get 300 gallons per hour. Doing the math if they could park for 6 hours would get 1800 gallons so do that 27 times in a month. Not very likely. For the 100000 gallons do the 54 times in a month. No way! County just won’t budge

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

I don't think it would do as much as the meter is indicating, but an expansion tank on an open system (no check valve preventing reverse flow) would push the expanded water back past the meter without deducting.. then as the water cools the water comes back through the meter and ticks off a couple more ticks. But I don't think that would explain 100k gallons

 

[WorthFlorida]

No water softener or irrigation.
They are telling owner needs to get a plumber and find and fix leak. But meter shows no low flow movement so no leaks in the system. Funny about theft. County is saying toilets or someone stealing it. To do that would need to park between two houses about 100’ apart and have a 100’ garden hose. At best they would get 300 gallons per hour. Doing the math if they could park for 6 hours would get 1800 gallons so do that 27 times in a month. Not very likely. For the 100000 gallons do the 54 times in a month. No way! County just won’t budge

Wait for your next reading. If the usage is normal, which it should not be if the meter was read wrong, If it's normal usages the meter skipped a beat. It is very easy looking at the film covered lens to get the # 2 and #5 wrong.

Is it a digital meter or and analog? Get your past bills and look at the meter readings, not usage but usually it will show the past and current reading. It'll may give proof the meter is wrong. You can ask for a replacement. Must look at the web site if it can be done. Sometimes there is a fee for the change out.

 

[JamFlowMan]

if it is a mechanical meter (almost all are) then you can check the numbers on the register (rollers and dials)... are they indicating the same as the bill? if so, then there HAS TO be water flowing through the meter.

BUT, like Tuttles Revenge says... it could be from reverse flow. and if it was turning the pump on and off constantly due to pressure loss when reversing, that could explain it. - you would, however, see the meter's low flow indicator moving in that case. And, the meter's register would be close to actual usage.

One more consideration - I assume the meter is hooked up to an AMR (automatic meter reading system) - those usually operate on "pulses" from a reed switch that gets pulled closed by a magnet as it passe by. that switch could possibly be "bouncing" - although de-bouncing should be built in to the electronics that accepts the pulses. It could be that the switch has gone bad and is "chattering" if the magnet lands in the exact right spot. Shouldn't be an issue - but it is possible.

Electrical interference on the wire from the meter could also cause this. That's a bit above my pay grade to explain how or why, but I know I have seen it happen where the meter reading system just keeps counting for no apparent reason.

Checking the numbers on the meter is your best bet. Installing another meter right downstream to verify is another option.
City Meters can be expensive! So you should try to figure it out before you have them replace it.
I'd love to hear an update as to how this turned out.

 

[Michael Young]

Helping a friend.
It’s a 2 person, 3 bath home. No pool. No irrigation system. On septic. Normal usage is about 4000 gallons. Last month bill just shy of 55,000 gallons. Water department says toilet leak. Low flow indicator rock steady over 20 minutes. So no leak. No way home septic can handle that much.
Friend said no hose was used and house only has one spigot. In talking with water department meter read to them and confirmed by water department tech later and this month say used 103,000 gallons!!! Insisting they get a plumber to fix the leak. I did bucket test and hose would have to run 24/7 for 7 days or 15 days for 100k.
Water techs checked meter and said it match at 5 gallons to test meter. My question is can a meter fail by up counting usage? They say not possible only less. Thoughts?

test #1
in the morning, before you go to work.
TURN OFF the valve to the whole house. Go look at the meter and take a picture. When you get home, take another picture of that meter. The numbers should be EXACTLY THE SAME. If not, you have a leak between the meter and the whole house shutoff. you'll need to replace the water pipe between the meter and your home. Add a new shutoff and PRV; add a thermal expansion tank. get it all inspected.

test #2
in the morning, before you go to work.
TURN OFF the stop valves behind your toilet. TEST by flushing (prove) that the stop valve is holding and that ZERO WATER is refilling the toilet tank. Repeat above... take a picture of your meter. When you get home, the numbers should be exactly the same. if not, you're losing water at one of the toilets. Use process of elimination to determine which one. Rebuild your toilets (or replace). call in a homeowners inspection. get the work inspected. turn in your inspection report to the municipality and they will likely adjust your bill. (the inspection is just for proof. otherwise, pay a plumber and you'll have a receipt you can submit)

test #3
waste of time. surely someone has already looked..... but if you have a leak under the house dumping that much water, the crawlspace is going to be a swimming pool. Have a quick peak. If you do have a leak you'll SEE/HEAR it immediately.

questions:
do any of your toilets cycle?
do any of your toilets NOT SHUT OFF..run water continuously? if so, your water level is too high and you're dumping water into the overflow 24-7.

if you determine its a toilet issue, buy rebuild kits for your toilets (read directions and be sure to set water level properly)

 

[WorthFlorida]

,,,,

 

[Jeff H Young]

test #1
in the morning, before you go to work.
TURN OFF the valve to the whole house. Go look at the meter and take a picture. When you get home, take another picture of that meter. The numbers should be EXACTLY THE SAME. If not, you have a leak between the meter and the whole house shutoff. you'll need to replace the water pipe between the meter and your home. Add a new shutoff and PRV; add a thermal expansion tank. get it all inspected.

test #2
in the morning, before you go to work.
TURN OFF the stop valves behind your toilet. TEST by flushing (prove) that the stop valve is holding and that ZERO WATER is refilling the toilet tank. Repeat above... take a picture of your meter. When you get home, the numbers should be exactly the same. if not, you're losing water at one of the toilets. Use process of elimination to determine which one. Rebuild your toilets (or replace). call in a homeowners inspection. get the work inspected. turn in your inspection report to the municipality and they will likely adjust your bill. (the inspection is just for proof. otherwise, pay a plumber and you'll have a receipt you can submit)

test #3
waste of time. surely someone has already looked..... but if you have a leak under the house dumping that much water, the crawlspace is going to be a swimming pool. Have a quick peak. If you do have a leak you'll SEE/HEAR it immediately.

questions:
do any of your toilets cycle?
do any of your toilets NOT SHUT OFF..run water continuously? if so, your water level is too high and you're dumping water into the overflow 24-7.

if you determine its a toilet issue, buy rebuild kits for your toilets (read directions and be sure to set water level properly)

View attachment 98657

good advice pretty much like the other advice from 6 monthes ago but condensed . I doubt he is still wasting 50k gallons a month probebly fixed it but never bothered to come back and fill us in.

 

[WorthFlorida]

See what to do if it happens to you. | WATER BILLS DOUBLING AND TRIPLING! | By News 6 WKMG / ClickOrlandoFacebook

WATER BILLS DOUBLING AND TRIPLING!

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[Tuttles Revenge]

We just finished up a condo remodel that had a Yoke for a water meter that never got installed. I had our guys remove it since it was useless and had a chunk of PVC pipe nipple as a Meter Cheater... Which lead me to think.. how could you solve this problem... remove the meter and replace it with a chunk of pvc nipple.

Just kidding.. don't do it. That would be theft. Unlike charging a customer for hundreds of thousands of gallons of water that were never delivered.

 

[Michael Young]

We just finished up a condo remodel that had a Yoke for a water meter that never got installed. I had our guys remove it since it was useless and had a chunk of PVC pipe nipple as a Meter Cheater... Which lead me to think.. how could you solve this problem... remove the meter and replace it with a chunk of pvc nipple.

View attachment 98668

Just kidding.. don't do it. That would be theft. Unlike charging a customer for hundreds of thousands of gallons of water that were never delivered.

Years ago I had a kid working for me. He asked to "borrow" my jumpers. I have one jumper I use on water meters and another jumper I use for electric meters sockets. This kid took my jumpers and was blatantly stealing both water and power. And yeah. he got caught. they ended up putting him in jail. Nope. I never got them back. I had to make new jumpers.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I guess just a little too blatent he was about stealing water and power LOL

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Years ago I had a kid working for me. He asked to "borrow" my jumpers. I have one jumper I use on water meters and another jumper I use for electric meters sockets. This kid took my jumpers and was blatantly stealing both water and power. And yeah. he got caught. they ended up putting him in jail. Nope. I never got them back. I had to make new jumpers.

In the 90s the previous tenant hadn't paid the gas bill.. But the gas company didn't lock it til I signed up for a new account and demanded that I pay the past due amount. It took over a year of arguing with them for them to get their account straight but they kept locking the meter... I kept unlocking it. I had the special key for the meter locks... but I also learned how to pick them with a paper clip. I think I had over a dozen of their locks in a box at one point.