Rough plumbing water closet comments requested

[dukes]

Hello Guys, I am starting the rough plumbing for the bathroom in our new addition. I thought it would be simple to just copy what was done in the other 2 baths of the original house. We built the house 11 years ago and used a professional plumber to do the work. He is not available now, and since I have done several ambitious projects myself, I thought I would do the plumbing this time. Attached is an accurate drawing of the water closets we have in the original house. I have had one plumber comment that it is not a good example. OK what is wrong with it, and what should be done? It seems all book examples I have found are for 2 story houses, or houses with basements where grade is not a problem. Your comments appreciated, Bill (Dukes)

[Dunbar Plumbing]

The vent for the toilet, use 2" 45's instead of 90's. You are creating a flat vent the way you have it.......and most areas that isn't code.


The reason they want 45's is if that toilet ever clogs....toilet paper/crap will sit on that horizontal spot where those two 90's connect.......possibly sealing off the vent since there is nothing to wash it out once the clog is removed.

45's allows gravity to do its job and remove the buildup. This rule follows anything under 42", anything above that number puts it over the flood level rim of most if not all fixtures to which they overflow.


Come out of that low heel with a street 45 and roll it up with a regular 45.

[hj]

You have 270 degrees of turns there where a single 90 would do. Put the long sweep 90 under the toilet, with a 3x2 Y on top of it, then run the 2" back to the wall with a 45 on top to go vertical.

[jimbo]

The rough in dimension is 12" from finished wall surface, where you seem to show 13.

[dukes]

Thanks Guys, Is this changed sketch what you had in mind? I had to add a 1/8 in the vent line to stay in my envelope which is 8 inches below the I joist.
I will change the 13 inch to 12 inch also. I knew better. I don't understand the 2 pipe diameter rule minimum for placing the vent after the waste line. Does this meet that? Thanks, Bill (Dukes)

[solsacre]

Not good on the vent.
Don't turn the vent horizontal (less than 45) untill 6 inches above the flood leval rim of the toilet. look at the far wall if it's less than 6' away, you may be able to turn it under the closet flange toward that wall, and put a san-T on it's back to send the vent up the wall.

12" min from back wall (finishedwall) 15" min from side wall.... but the side to side will be more comfortable if you have the room for at least 18 (3' wall to wall.... but your real problem is that every job is diffrent... you can't always just copy what someone else did. simple rules. (for my state)

Tie the vent in withing 6 foot of the closet flange

Don't run more than 135 d before vent.

The less turns the better.

Horizontal to Horizontal, and Vertical to Horizontal use long turn 90's. horizontal to vertical can use med turns.

Make a plan and pay a plumber you trust a service call (1 hour) to reveiw your plans and give a pro opinion.

Good Pics!!!!

good luck with your project


dances-with-pumps

[kordts]

In Illinois, that 3x2 wye could be a tee. Come out of the tee with a travel piece then use a long sweep 90 to turn up into the wall.

[hj]

Our inspectors would pass it, and I always install the opening at 13". Eliminates problems when the carpenters move a wall or the owner decides he likes 1" tile on the walls.

[dukes]

OK, I need a reality reset. Does everyone agree that a vent angle must never be less than 45 degrees from horizontal until it has risen 6 inches above the appliance overflow? If that is the case it looks impossible to put the vent in the wall behind the toilet. There has to be millions of single story homes, with 18 inch crawl spaces, with the toilet backed up to the wall. What I don't understand is why there isn't a universal solution to this particular case. I appreciate all the comments. I knew it wasn't going to be easy. Thanks, Bill (Dukes)

[prashster]

I'm no pro, but in the code reading I've done, there are exceptions for how a toilet can be drained/vented (s traps, upstream venting, closet bends) because of practical considerations. I thought flat venting was one of those exceptions.

[solsacre]

Does everyone agree that a vent angle must never be less than 45 degrees from horizontal until it has risen 6 inches above the appliance overflow? No we're not. You will find that each state is dif, each inspector may let things slide. Your drawings wouldn't pass in Oregon. What your doing would work... but may not pass in your state. Check with local plumbers.:eek:

w/c.............vent
----
|
|
L____________I_____

If possable you may want to try something like the above.
I realize my drawings arn't as good as yours but you get the Idea.

Good luck

Dances-with-pumps

[kordts]

Vents can run "flat," well actually with pitch. It just has to come off the main above the center of the drain line. When it is under the flood rim, or under grade, sweeping fittings are supposed to be used. When the vent is a continuation of the drain line, like most non-island kitchen sink drains, it can't go horizontal till 6" above the flood rim. Vents can't be manifolded together till 6" above the floodrim.

[Randyj]

Not wanting to hijack this thread... I have a question here. Nearby inspectors are notoriously tough with rules many find totally ridiculous. For the most part 90's are not allowed in sewer lines, 45's are not allowed closer than 16", sanitary tees are not allowed to be installed on their backs (not even in vents???), bends going down to a sewer line must be less than 60 degrees.... any comments or explanation of these rules? When I questioned the inspectors they could only tell me the rules... not the whys.

[dukes]

Hello again, I think I have learned enough to draw the complete bathroom roughin now (thanks to all your help). I gave up worrying about flat vents in the wall behind the toilet and moved the vent to another wall. I think this may be what solsacre was suggesting. I am learning and appreciate all your comments. My new drawing is a little too big to post directly. Please examine it at http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=roughpl1xv6.jpg
and "fire away". Bill (Dukes)

[hj]

The way you have drawn it now, that vent behind the toilet is not needed in most cases. The lavatory drain would act as the toilet's vent.

[Randyj]

Dukes... sounds like you're getting your plumbing education about like I did... never went to a class and never had a job working with a plumber... just experience and a zillion trips to the hardware store, Lowe's and home depot. Oh yeah, I did buy a code book and have done lots of studying and reading. I was able to get my license and am much happier now as a plumber (with a better income!) than as a biologist. Mainly I just love the freedom of self-employment... but the lack of financial security is scarey.

BTW.. nice drawings... what program are you using?

[dukes]

Thanks, hj , I hadn't even thought of that. I was concerned about using the adaptors from the 2 to 3 inch. I "assume" it is OK to go bigger in the direction of flow, but I didn't know. The one case where I went from 3 to 2 for the possibly unecessary toilet vent was particularly worrisome. The 13 inch dimension on the drawing should have been 18 inches. That is the wall to the side of the toilet now, not the back.
Thanks, Randyj for the encouraging words. I love to learn, and I am really persistent (stubborn?) I was in business twice (electronics), once sucessfully, and once a disaster. Unfortuanately the disaster was the last time 12 years ago. I am finding the physical and mental work of building this addition addition (1000 sq. ft.) very satisfying. I am using the original Visio drawing program which came out about 15 years ago. It is very obsolete, but so am I. I spend more time converting the files from its format to jpg than actually drawing. Thanks again guys, Bill (Dukes)

[geniescience]

bill

Unless I am seeing things, it looks like what you have been calling a vent up till now is actually a sink drain, and wet vent for the toilet. That changes things. The discussion above is not on target.

In the attic, if you use 3", you will get more real venting in the 2" vents down below. Air is not compressible. Just like water. Except when you put a lot of energy into compressing it, which is not what happens in a vent.

david

[dukes]

David, Thanks for the comment. The previous discussions were applicable, as I changed walls for the toilet venting. Previously the vent was dedicated to the toilet only. When I changed walls and laid out the sink and shower I created a wet vent without realizing it until hj pointed it out. On the attic vent are you suggesting I adapt the two 2 inch vents to 3 inch and exit the roof as a 3 inch? Thanks again, Bill, (Dukes)

[hj]

Only necessary if you live in an area that gets freezing weather. Otherwise it has no fuction other than cosmetic.

[Randyj]

Dukes. As long as you enjoy what you're doing and are comfortable with it then you've got as good a job as possible. I could tell you a few things about my life but I'd rather not do that in public. At any rate, I had a few hard knocks and after a good job I got dumped after helping my boss build a multi million dollar business. I went into business for myself only to utilize my education. That business lasted about 10 years and bellied up. I had spent most of my life helping my mom with her rental house repairs and worked on an institutional maintenance crew for a couple of years. In my business I did all of my own work to remodel and plumb the old building before opening the business. I set up over 100 aquariums on a central filtration system with manifold water and air supplies... talking about ALOT of plumbing!!!! My son was about 13 when I did this... he's 28 now and has got a good job with a national plumbing repair company... he makes very good money... from just the good old stuff his old pappy taught him...never a day in class, never worked for anyone else. It just takes a good mechanical aptitude and decent problem solving skills. I know lots of people who can't hold a screwdriver and never would be able to do it. It just requires patience and taking it step by step. In the plumbing business the shortest route from point A to point B is seldom a straight line. Knowing what's available, learning the tools and the parts, and doing just what you're doing here... picking up tips from experienced people.. that's what it's all about. Belive me, you can get a good education just screwing up jobs and having to fix your screw ups to satisfy an inspector... they've taught me alot!

[dukes]

Hello again, It seems we get so much wiser with years. I enjoyed the high tech business for about 44 years. I literally burned out trying to keep up with technology. Looking back it was kind of foolish working so hard to produce products that would only last (market wise) about a year. Building this addition is so satisfying, and if I do a good job this house might last 50 years or more. Which was more important? Duh, looks like a "no brainer" question. Anyway, I have an appointment with the plumbing inspector Thursday morning to go over my DWV plan. I'll let you guys know how it turns out. Thanks again, Bill (Dukes)

[dukes]

Hello, I just realized this morning something probably everyone else on this forum already knew. Just in case there is someone else who could benefit I will reveal my ignorance of the subject. DWV fittings have "built in" 1/4 inch per foot angles! It was bothering me that I might have to torque the pipe to achieve the correct angle. I have not yet found the actual specs on the internet, because apparently the published standards for the fittings have to be purchased. Is this why they are called "drainage fittings"? Thanks, Bill (Dukes)

[Randyj]

I don't have a clue about that...but I can tell you that DWV is not necessarily rated for the pressures of a water line. For drains and waste it has to have an adequate curve for the flow of the waste. For a water supply (water under pressure) this curve is not necessary. And for venting, nobody really cares.

[prashster]

Not sure how fittings can be "pre-sloped". A 90 deg el, for example, can be mounted horizontally or vertically, or anyway in between. That'll affect the slope, no?

I'm no pro, but my daughter has noticed that 4 secs of straight pipe can be combined with 4 els to form a perfect square - which might not be poss if the fittings weren't perfect 90's.

There is a good amount of 'play' in the fitting that allows you to achieve desired slope with a little effort; maybe that's what they meant.

I've seen 'drainage' pipes that were much thinner than Sch40 and had flared endings; i thought they were only appropriate for storm water apps...

[Randyj]

Pipes are made in a variety of ways. The bell end you describe is for ease of connection (be sure the bell is on the intake end, not the discharge end) and keep one from having to use couplings at every joint. About any copper or plastic pipe can be bent a little with no problem, even galvanized. Cast iron and ductile pipe ain't gonna bend. But, you can get just a little bend in about any fitting. You just have to be careful not to stress it so much that you introduce leaks. As for pre-formed, I never noticed and would guess it's just a manufacturers perrogative to cheap out on manufacturing and push the limits for tolerance.

[dukes]

Hello, I guess the pre angled fittings claim is hard to prove. I based my claim on 3 sources I found last night, and forgot to bookmark. I have only refound one so far and it is by Nibco (a mfg. of ABS pipe and fittings). To quote ""These "systems" have built-in "pitch" or "fall" and require a high degree of accuracy in laying out and cutting pipe to exact lengths. Errors cannot be corrected with stress , heat, or a hammer." " This is at
http://www.nibco.com/assets/ABSGUIDE.pdf I forgot which page, but I found it by clicking on the binoculars and typing in "pitch". One of the other sources was a plumbing engineering standards site. Back to the original thread: My review of DWV plans went well with the inspector. Out of 17 fittings he only found fault with 3. The items are:
1. Did not like wet vent of lavatory in front of toilet. Go around toilet and connect downstream with Y.
2. Did not like combo wye and 1/8 bend from toilet. Use 4 to 3 closet bend instead.
3.Did not like combo wye on shower arm vent end. Use santee instead
I am redrawing my system, and will provide a link later. Thanks, Bill (Dukes)

[dukes]

Hello again, more about the angle. I have found several references to ASTM D3311 as the standard that defines drainage fittings. It cost $45. I don't want to know the answer that badly, but if someone already has the standard maybe they could check it. I did find a patent application that discusses this. It is at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20040194840.html
It says in part "For example, in the case of a sanitary tee branch, the sanitary tee branch isn't exactly 90 degrees, so that when pipe is attached to it, the tee branch approaches at a slope of about 1/4" per foot." Later, Bill (Dukes)

[Randyj]

Hot diggity dog... I learn something new ever day.

[dukes]

Hello, I have posted the DWV plan I am going to start building today at
http://img481.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plmbpg5bzj9.jpg

Thanks for everyone's help. Bill (Dukes)

[dukes]

Hello again, the link above seems to have quit working. I put another copy at http://home.budget.net/~bherzog/Images/plmbpg5b.jpg Bill (Dukes)