Water heater question for EXPERTS....

Got a customer down the street that I have installed
4 or 5 water heaters in his house over the past 10 years.

Originally he had 52 gallon electric SMITH,
then I installed another 52 SMITH.
then I installed a RHEEM,
then 4 years ago

I installled a BRAD WHITE

He called me today claiming it was now leaking too...


I have a PRV valve in the line

I have a therm Exp tank on the heater
Pressure is at 70 psi

Theri is a water softener in the system to soften
the water and kill the lime....

I have the heater on wood 2x4s to get it off the concrete floor

I have dialectric unions on it

I have flexible SS braided water heater connectors
going from the copper to the top of the
new heater......


I have had the eleectrical system checked out 4 years ago and they claim I was full of crap ......


Now This time
I am planning on installing a ground rod into the
basement floor and grounding the water heater
and the 220v ground going into the top of the heater
to this copper spike too....

the only thing I havent done to extend the life
of this quirkey house is to bring a Preist in
and have the place excorsized......



Is their anything I am missing here???

Have the water tested to verify that the softener is solving the problems. Adjust the water conditioning as required.

To piggyback on JAD's answer, I would get a complete chemical assay on that water. There might be some other kind of corrosive substance in there that they don't normally check for.

water is ok

its not the soft water....

the area is city water at about 20 parts hard with pratically
no iron at all........

no lime what so ever in any of the tanks I have taken out
ove rthe years



I still think the house is possessed

I suppose I could get the water tested, but it is pretty tame city water
and everyone else around this fellow has no problema at all....

Here you go:

http://www.archindy.org/

1. Not related to the situation that's causing the problem but you know that wood is not code for supporting water heaters. Even wood shims to level is not approved. Reason: Wood absorbs water, deteriorates and starts straining the water lines/electrical/gas sources to the heater.

Will it happen to 2X4's? Doubt it seriously but no matter what I always use concrete or masonry brick, concrete block if the customer prefers a higher elevation. Code approved steel stands for garage applications or solid concrete 8" block cross-tied.

2. Stop by and check the static water pressure at 2 in the morning; you might be measuring the city main static pressure at the time you tested. The testing at night gives the true accuracy if the PRV is working correctly.

3. Check the Expansion tank to make sure it isn't blown. This will allow thermal expansion to build without proper protection.

4. Is the customer on a yearly ritual of draining the tank once a year? This might be a partial problem with the bottom deteriorating.

5. Have you inspected the anode rods on each and every tank you installed to see the wear patterns the rod is taking? If the rod is gone within 2 years then possibly.....like you mention it might be water makeup that is the core problem.


Problem is, all the homes surrounding your customer should be facing the same water issues.

6. What is the detailed diagnosis of each time the tanks leak........and is there any chance foul play is involved? (some customers know to make things leak under the warranty window)

7. You've tried 4 different brands with all the same results. If the community isn't having the same issues then absolutely check to see if that ground to the water heater is going all the way back to the panel or is it jumping to a junction somewhere.

8. If the customer is imposing on you to make it good at your cost......I'd tell them to find someone else to put them in.......especially if the plumbing inspectors have been signing off on the permits to replace the heater. The liability lays back to the state if it was installed incorrectly and the inspectors didn't pick it up.

thanks rugged

the customer is an old elderly man living by himself
in the now vacated family home--had 6 kids backin the70s.

I suppose changeing out the PRV valve might be
one avenue to approach.....the therm tank is only 4 years old too...

he even has pressure guages on both sides of the
prv valve to measure incomming an dout going water
through that valve....

I am not going over ther at 2am......he can check the guages himself if he so chooses.

its always under warranty, so Iusually change it out
for labor ....and of course it has become something both me and
the customer are really curious about....


as far as 2x4s under the water heater, they are actually
pallet 2x4s made out of some kind of scrub oak...absolutely
hard as hell and will probably last forever....

they certanly have to break the ground to the floor from the bottom
of the heater


I plan on nailing a copper ground rod
through the basement floor then running a few jumper
wires to the copper plumbing, and to the ground
going tothe water heater...

my luck I will hit an underground spring....


its finally become personal....

Simple check of ground is to take your tester and go from both legs, 1 at a time, to ground. You should get 120V or so. Try this also.... go from the water pipe B4 valve and exp. tank over the heater to ground useing a digital multimeter B4 the heater is installed and see if there is any voltage at all, there shouldn't be any. I have found a couple of units over the years that had low voltage flowing. This could be the problem.

Check the new heater for continuinty from tank to ground screw B4 installing.

On the other hand maybe you have been lucky enough to have gotten all your defective heaters come to one house.

heater

Get 2 electrical ground clamps and put them on the hot and cold pipes where they come out of the wall, then put a piece of wire between them. I have had the same situation, in one case it only took about 3 months before it looked like someone took a can opener and went between the two heater connections and it blew out. Since I did this on that heater,and others, I have not had any further problems. However, I could not find any power flow with any testers I used.

I'm just wondering, being a former chemist and all, why no one has invented a heat-proof, water-proof polymer to coat the inside of a hot water tank to prevent it from rusting out. Or, are they already using something like that?

They have

http://www.marathonheaters.com/consumers.html

A.O Simth

I spoke too soon about the brand of the heaters

Originally their was a Rheem,

Then I installed a Smith, then another Smith,

then Another Smith......

(a crummey brand like SMITH could be the problem )

Now I have stuck a Brad ford white in there......

put some braided conncectors onto the dialectric nipples
and tied them into the copper....

the prv valve has a copper jumper across it at the main
incomming copper line....


their is just something real goosey going on here and

next week I will probably do what HJ suggests and
jump the hot and cold lines

also I am going to drive a ground rod into the
front yard right outdside the basement wall
by the water heater then
poke a hole through the wall and
ground that puppy


the junkey Smith heater was leaking like a faucet
was turned on....

I did one today also that flooded the basement, 8" of water. The floor drain was clogged and the home owner used a 5 gal. wet vac. running up and down the basement stairs, dumping it, for 2 hrs. getting the water out B4 I got there.

Just a possibility...
Check the anode rods to see if the softener is not causing them to corrode too quickly...
The extra salt is possibly accelerating rusting of the tank...
Otherwise, you have stumped me....

heaters

The Marathon, and other "lifetime" heaters are a pure plastic tank, as you can tell if you pick one up with one hand. State made a plastic lined Duron tank for a while and that put them out of business in AZ because of all the warranty replacements.

hj said:

The Marathon, and other "lifetime" heaters are a pure plastic tank, as you can tell if you pick one up with one hand. State made a plastic lined Duron tank for a while and that put them out of business in AZ because of all the warranty replacements.

Click to expand...

Why did those tanks fail?

Mark , Don't go too far from the whole " Plumbing Ghost " thing !!

I SWEAR I've had a couple of houses over the years that have been possesed !

NO REAL REASON for something to leak ,,,,, then every couple of months ,,poof !!! There it is again .

Get a priest ! Or ,,,, just to continue our other debate ,,,,, Have you tried an On-Demand water heater ?? heh,heh !

Cal

Just to add to Markts30's comment, I also have heard that the water softener will cause premature tank failure. I have researched this a little and the softened water may cause the anodes to wear out due to a change in the ph of the water. I have as softener and have been thinking about inspecting the anodes. Is this difficult or a job for an expert.

There should be a large nut on the top of the heater. This is the nut connecting to the rod. If you go to one of the big box stores you can look at a rod and see the nut I am talking about. B sure to close the valve over the heater or coming in the house and relieve the pressure first.

tanks

The State Duron tanks were a good idea in theory, but had at least two problems.
1. Since they had plastic in contact with the water they did not need an anode rod, or at least that was the theory.
2. The heater elements and the bosses they were screwed into were metal exposed to the water, so without the anode rod they would oxidize and once the threads were gone the elements blew out and could not be replaced.
3. To counteract that problem, they went to an oversized 1 3/8" element with an anode block on it and double "O" ring seals to isolate the metal.
4. They had no control over whether the Duron plastic liner was coating the entire inside of the tank, and when it didn't, without the anode rod, the heater failed.