Angie's List

[Cookie]

I know Steve talked about this quite a few times, but, I found an advertisement for it in our local paper. I am not sure, if he ever posted a website address, it is as follows: www.angieslist.com (http://www.angieslist.com)

I am going to check it out later.

[jimbo]

I recommend that you search around this and other forums, and google around as well. Not all the reports about angies list have been favorable. Trade people have to pay for referrals, and do not like a lot of "lookie-loo" calls. I have read comments that some of the better people do not use the list anymore, because the cost/return did not work out.

I have no personal experience on either side of the equation, so this is just 3rd party feedback. Just do your research.

[hj]

I may have to check it out, just to see how they operate. All of the referral services I have been acquainted with have been unsatisfactory. Some people think they should get a discount for using the service, while others have a prioritized referral either by zip code or rotation spot on their list.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

This goes by zipcode. I had to put my zip in. No problem. I found my roofer comes highly recommeneded, which I already knew. I am going to put a comment there for the roofer though, because he did a great job on the roof, his price was very reasonable, which all customers did comment on, and he is extremely nice, which again all the customers commented on plus, of course the extremely good work he did. I would absolutely hire him, again, no problem their.

So far as one plumber. Well, he is the plumber/ceramic tile/ handyman --he is commented on under them all, and none too favorable. Would like to make my comment that this is the plumber from hell, but, I will be nice. I will also, be honest.

It is interesting, too look at those. I am sure glad though, lol, no one can check up on me like this, LOL. I am not so sure it is really ethical. It does invade somewhat someone's privacy. Is it constitutional? lol.


Praise the roofer and slam the plumber. If you are absolutely positive poor workmanship was the issue, they deserve the black eye coming to them. I would deserve the same if I was doing ill-respect towards customers in my profession.

Being nice to those who take of you is a matter of one's reasoning. I couldn't hand the thief a plate of cookies at my door everytime they stop by to steal from me.


Actually.....in that system those you give reports on (if they are a member themselves) can see what kind of reports you give to others.....and who you've dealt with in regards to service providers. If you are notorious for being hard-nosed or nitpick contractors to death......well....not only the SP's but other Angie's List clientell will judge whether your intention is to bash or give a legit rating on the SP.

Most if not all of the members are really decent......and when you hear of their complaint of the contractor.......most of the time it is justified and the SP's have to answer for it. It really makes us as service providers accountable for offering the best service to our customers. Those who think it is a hayride to mow down their customers because they can't do much to hurt their public relations? Welcome to Angie's List and it will tarnish your name if the area you live in has a large population of members. Not exactly getting any ground in your bad movements towards others.


A service provider has to be accountable that his private experience with a customer can instantly become public when they take missteps and take advantage of their customer.

It's a public experience all the time for those to talk of others when they do good work; same applies for bad.

Do me a favor and call them tell them you are moving to Cincinnati/Kentucky area and would like to know of the plumbers in that area....

When you inquire by phone it will show up on your "recent categories" or "recently viewed" specific SP's.

Check out my reports/status with them and you'll see why I get bent on people half-assing work for others.

Just about all of that AL base are people who got screwed by SP's. Then I come around cleaning up all the messes.

I have pictures on my cell phone of a contractor (Mr. Handyman) who came in and needed to fix a floor where a toilet had been leaking. I tell the customer to get the floor renewed, don't let them drill the hole for the new flange; I'll take care of the rest.

When I figure out how to get those pictures up I'll finish the story and you'll hear the response that company tried to tell me and the customer that we both didn't know how to fix plumbing. ????

You don't have to watch the WWF to see a body slam after her and I dealt with this company. It was fun. :D

[master plumber mark]

I am a happy member of Angies list.....

but I feel that Angies list is not actually honest and upfront
about the contractors on their list.....


when I originally tried to get on their list I was told that only
through rferrals from angies list members could I be "blessed"
with membership...

once I was granted this great honor, I was apporached by the salesman at Angies list and politely asked to advertise in their monthly publlication.....

I was stunned to find out that to have a business sized card in
their monthly flyer that only goes out to about 35,000 people in our state region, it would cost me about $900.......yes thats right
$900...a month.. this is higher than a good sized ad in the big yellow page book!!!!!

Then I was told that if I advertised with them I would get preferrential treatment and would be on their-- "best buddies"--
list of contractors that they recommended to perspective
customers....over the phone....

I politely declined, which they said was ok too.---they just would
not highly recommend me (now aint that sweet)


Since that time, I have been made aware of a number of other plumbers in
town that have terrible track records but are still on Angies list...

one such person put in a 40 gal gas water heater for a customer for $1500 and then gave the customer a 10% angies list discount!!!!!!
wow , what a deal.....



and now it makes me curious to wonder if Angie looks the other way
for these $$Advertiseing buddies $$ when they gouge and mess up



COOOKIE would you not say that this is
what they call in the book

------a shake down of sorts????

I do use their logo,
but I am not going to bribe them for work...

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Indy is home base for AL. I agree with your statement about preferential treatment to their paid advertisers.


I ran a 12 word ad for 2 years when I first got involved with them; got 1 call for an estimate 21 miles away which I turned down.


They screwed up an honor roll advertisement of mine that should of never been sent to print and even though it was printed and looked horrible.....they refused to give my money back or run a correction.

They haven't recieved one red cent since that mistake and I stand out on that system since I have no advertising with them whatsoever.

Been that way for almost 3 years now and that won't change.....otherwise, like you say above.....it taints the trueness of the system.

One plumber in Cincinnati has 224 reports to my small 55. You know why too.

[master plumber mark]

I despise being shook down

I totally despise any plumbing inspector looking
for a handout

I absolutely HATE the YELLOW PAGES and the head games they
try to play with me each and every year.....

and I simply wont play this game......


the consumer has no idea that they are
being bent over by Angie and many , many times
grossly overcharged by their "preferred" contractors.....



I was actually shook down by an angies list member once too...

they reported me to Angies list for literally nothing at all, then
when I confronted them on teh phone about it they told me
it would be erased from the A site if I gave them back all their money.......

I was told by Angie that it was their word against mine
and I think if I were one of their $advertiseing buddies$ they
would have made it all go away......


After a screaming match on the phone,
with this fine upstanding fellow
I gave this puss bucket back his money

but of course he never totally kept his word...

anyway what comes around goes around..

[Mike50]

I would only use Angies list as a tool for research on a vendor.
No problem with that at all.

Get creative and really learn to do research beyond a cursory google search.

Before I selected the company to replace my septic tank---I knew more about the owner than you can believe.

I bet if you give Angie enough dough, good old Angie would nominate you for the Nobel Prize. I could be wrong but I doubt it....

If I owned a business that needed to do serious research on vendors/people weekly I would be using Lexisnexis. It's not cheap.

Luckily I live in a small town so I just call the local hardware store for referrals.
Can't beat low-tech sometimes.

Mike

[Mike50]

If you have to???- use a nic and non identifying info.
You don't want a water heater thru your living room window. ;-)

Dont libel yourself.

[Mike50]

Aw. Geez. What did you say...?
just remember to duck...lol

I speak out as well Cookie. 2006 was a good year. I wrote 3+ positive letters about service/vendors/products.
Toto was one.

That being said---there is world of Diff between a tradesguy who is just a boob having a bad day--OR someone who is seriously a Cheat-Liar-Bum.


Mike

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Steve, (Rugged)

You got a commendable record with Angie's List. Congrats! You would be hired in a heartbeat.

Should mention, they got a new sector closer to your area, you should absolutely include that area, too.

Cookie


Thanks. 54 A's and one set of C's just because I cancelled a estimate 4 days in advance isn't too shabby.

I haven't received a report in awhile. Usually October brings a flurry of members calling me because that is the time they start hounding the service providers to advertise. This year it didn't happen to me and I'm in no position to take on anymore work than I already can handle.

Most work from that system brings on elective plumbing work which I'd rather be the one who goes out on the drop of a dime to fix a plumbing emergency rather than someone who has a punch list of numerous plumbing issues.

You get to a place in every profession that you want to do what makes the best bang for the buck and has you back home having a personal life aside from work. At one time I was driven that all that matters is work. I'm slowly getting a good balance where if the phone rings I don't feel like a dog with its leash being tugged.

I'm in the "oh well" category that no matter how many calls I turn away....my advertising and word of mouth keeps my hands moving every week without complaint.

The only goals I have with my business now is to pay off its debt, concentrate heavily on direct-mail advertising in my local area instead of 2 or 3 counties away and become organized on the paper side of this business. A huge relief follows if I can get my new secretary and myself with continual follow-ups with new or repeat customers, annual reminders to existing customer base of certain to do's on their recent expenditures.

[Mike50]

Let the buyer Beware.

All this online reviewing business is in it's infancy folks. As long as you are armed with the knowledge of how easy it is to give bogus reviews then go for it.

I use wikipedia for definitions and research.
Should your kid use it for college term paper purposes? NO.

I buy books from Amazon. Are the reviews all honest? NO.


Are some of Angie's list reviews (good and bad) agenda driven and fabricated by consumers as well as service providers? YES

No substitute for critical research.

[rudytheplbr]

Well, I don't think I would use their list for anything, I entered my Zip to see if there is any plumbers or contractors on the list in my area, and this list does not know the town for the zip code entered.
They gave me Edna Bay instead of Ketchikan, AK

[Mike50]

Let me say this: The real beauty of the internet is all the free information available. You don't have to be a Techie or data-miner to become semi-expert at gathering data.

Before I invested in a very expensive septic system earlier this year I had it nailed down to one vendor pretty fast.
I found out about his family's local history in the septic business which went back over 80 years.

I also found documents
in the public record.
This guy testified in Washington DC regarding gray water issues and systems about 5 years ago.

It's all free-it's more work and you must be creative.
Right enough, I do some pro bono research for a non profit organization so it easy for me-but easily learned.

It's not rocket science to create any ficticious company you want and plant glowing reviews
for others to "discover"... that would likely come up in google searches after a little while.

I also met a fellow several years back who authored a book offered on Amazon.
Guess what--he and his friends loaded up the reviews section with 4 stars.
The book sucked BTW imo. lol

That is also Why I'm not giving bad reviews of anyone unless they outright
stole or cheated me.

The best plumber in town will have a bad day where everything goes wrong
and the customer is pissed off. The rest of the year he is just Stellar-in all ways.
Do You really want a guy like that to be saddled with a searing review that will affect him and his family for many many years? Not me...
This stuff is "forever". Even these posts are. There are people that actually archive
messageboards. Not sure why-but they do-and store it on disc.

If I don't like you-or him me--it's irrelevant imo.
Not to mention you have crazies & drunks writing reviews all day long.

Checking good\bad\average boxes is one thing.
If you must slam the guy you best get familiar with online libel laws,right now.
That is reality..

As I said in another post Angie is just One tool in the toolbox.


This is all new and changing daily.

Mike

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I did work for a AL member I've done work for a few times and he made a point of telling me that the Cincinnati chapter now has a way to include pictures into the reports.

This is the first I've heard of this but for those in any profession are thinking they'll be able to talk themselves out of a mess, this latest addition to the system will hurt like salt in an open wound.

Some of these members won't even disclaim that they belong to such a system just to see how the contractor operates to the general public.

Accountability says it all when you work for the public. You screw up/take advantage of others and systems like AL become the enforcement group to protect others from shoddy workmanship.

That system in 3 years has expanded quite rapidly in many states. Before too long every state will have numerous chapters. It goes far beyond the limitations of the BBB with the juicy details and pictures to boot.

[hj]

So far as one plumber. Well, he is the plumber/ceramic tile/ handyman --he is commented on under them all, and none too favorable. Would like to make my comment that this is the plumber from hell, but, I will be nice. I will also, be honest.

Now, why do you call him a "plumber"? He is a handyman, clear and simple, regardless of any licenses he has.

I have had all kinds of "referral" companies call me, and they all promise to increase my revenue from their customers. I have yet to find any that do so, and since they want a fee, either you raise your price to those customers or accept a smaller profit margin. In addition, a lot of customers think that a service, like AL, is a discount site and you should be lowering your price or giving a "rebate".

[Mike50]

HJ My comment is this:

Plumbers to me are licensed contractors. But the word plumber seems to get thrown around a lot and the licensed guys suffer.

If I start advertising myself as a plumber on AL and I'm installing toilets for say 50 bucks...and I have 100 great ratings-I would be screwing a lot of career plumbers.

All you have to do is show up with big smile-charge 50 bucks and you will get great plumber ratings.

10 years ago Plumbers didnt have all this complication to deal with. It was yellow pages and word of mouth for the most part.
The mass influx of web data is challenging.

In some cases the new kid on the block can squash his competetion in months
even if his product or service is mediocre simply because he's very tech savvy.
The man who spent 30 years slowly developing his clientele can suffer unfairly.

Mike

[Cookie]

Catch Angie this weekend on CNN's Open House with Gerri Willis:

Nov. 18 9:30 AM EST CNN
Nov. 18 5:30 PM EST CNN Headline News
Nov. 19 5:30 PM EST CNN Headline News

[Randyj]

This list sounds about like the "Better Business Bureau" in Alabama. Reminds me much of a Mafia routine... "pay me and I'll let you do business and say nice things about you"... don't pay me and I won't protect you...

I'm somewhat a flegling business and still do all kinds of handyman work to make ends meet. I definitely prefer just doing plumbing but take on kitchen and bath remodeling as well. I WOULD NOT invest in a yellow pages ad for a business of my size (one person!). I have LOTS of days off, extremely low overhead/operating expenses, streamlined bookeeping, and when I do work I make more in a day or two than I would make working for a company in a whole week.... and my prices are fair and reasonable and the quality is as good as any other. I did the yellow page ads in a previous business. The first year or two it helped but not enough to cover the expense. My best advertising has been fliers, busines cards, and inexpensive local sales papers.

I simply do not trust the feedback from these kinds of lists. Word of mouth and seeing their work is the only real way to evaluate an unknown contractor/skilled laborer. Too, just because one person is unhappy with a contractor does not mean that conractor is not the one for you. Contractors get bit by customers who expect more than agreed upon. Contractors are people too and have personal and family problems as well as jobs that just have kinks and get tough which throws their timing off. Some take jobs too cheap just to have an income or to keep their employees busy during slow times...and this is going to end in someone not being happy...they sometimes leave the job for more lucrative work only to come back later to finish the "cheap" job when they get around to it. For this reason I highly recommend that you don't haggle over prices... take it or leave it. Don't expect a good job or good relationship if you get the work done for less than the original price quoted. If it's someone who is new in the area or new in business (but has the skills) he/she may not be familiar with pricing and wants the job for the experience and exposure. These guys can give you a really good deal and very good work! You can pretty well tell that if a person is well tooled and equipment is obviously used but in good condition that the person has experience. They won't have much experience if they are not good and will not have a decent set up... I'd also watch out for those who are "TOO" organized... a sure sign of a flim flam.

[Randyj]

Nope... seldom go to Tuscaloosa. Once upon a time (1998) I did a short stint as a truck driver and had a couple of jobs with Rite Aid and with Flower's bakery. I barely learned my way around Tuscaloosa then... The company put me up at the Jovonn Inn and I had to eat out all the time. I found an old restaurant where they served meat and vegetables ... I'm not much for the burgers and fries.. prefer just good down home cooking... peas and taters, greens & beans. I eat GOOD low classed food! I travel to Marion and Livingston from time to time on jobs... so maybe I'll stop in on McFarland and check out Archibalds... thanks..RJ

[Climber]

Angie's List or BBB, they both have extreme limitations on what they can tell a consumer.

Case in point:
I had my roof completely redone; eaves and all, by an, according to bothe these companies, a very reputable roofer. One of the largest roofers in Columbus. Not only could they not properly put tongue and groove boards fit tightly together; it is crooked, split from overnailing, sections upside-down, rotten decking, warped felt paper, improperly nailed shingles...there was not one area of the entire process from contract bid to arbitration that they did not mess up. They lost, I received back nearly all my money.

Moral: Do your research yourself. Ask for references and visit them if you can. Document, document, document.

[Randyj]

Oh well, I gave up the real world and moved to my vacation home (an old old mobile home) on the banks of one of the most beautiful lakes in the USA... I'm still new here and building local business is slow. Hopefully I'll be on the good side of Angie's list. Funny you mention roofers... one of my side gigs is occassionally repairing roofs on apartments for one of the largest construction companies/property management agencies in Alabama. I'm not saying they don't do good roofing... I just get alot of business repairing the one's they built. (2) Years ago my mom hired the largest roofing company (and the highest bidder!) to do a roof on a rental house. I spent the next 10 years replacing sheetrock in the ceiling and patching the same are of the roof. Finally I totally ripped the roof apart and rebuilt it to eliminate a turn in the valley.... problem solved. A big part of the problem is that the old wood was held down by old rusty nails and would pull up in high winds. The wood went back down but the nails stayed up causing lots of leaks over the years.

[speedbump]

Funny this thread is still running. I just got spammed by Angies list today from the Tampabay affiliate. They are on my S*** list now.

bob...

[Randyj]

Speed... I think we all have at least one of them lists...

[speedbump]

Good point Randyj.

[speedbump]

It was a typical HTML email with all the bells and whistles. Telling you how much you need them etc. I don't think there was any corilation between this thread and the Spam. I just thought it was odd that this thread was ongoing and I get the Spam during it.

I am not a member and won't be. I know a bazillion contractors in my area. I know the good and the bad, so I don't need a "for profit" entity to help me find the guy who is heavily sponsored by them to do my work. Even though you can get a good contractor from their recommendations, you must realize the "for profit" thing is what concerns me the most.

I'm sure some of the guys out there have worked for American Home Shield. The company that insures homes for a year after the sale or longer if you care to keep the contract going. It didn't take me long to find out how many things weren't covered after a few service calls. They make you think your are covered against practically everything. Better read the fine print. And if you stick up for the customer, your not going to get any more of their work.

bob...

[Randyj]

Inverness.. ugh... too much big money, too many snobs, too many apartment dwellers... give me the air and the smell of pine trees!!!! (Have you ever seen what happens to an overcrowded box of rats? That's close to what happens in a big crowded city... it's nasty!) NO WAY to sell out of this place and get crammed in a city ever again... We must be in the same age group... My joints are too rusty to do just any kind of work anymore. I frequently turn down jobs where I have to look up alot. My sister lives out past Inverness down in the narrows off of 280...garden homes... for what they paid for that cracker box of a house where they can spit on both neighbors without moving out of one spot I can get a double wide and 40 acres in Cullman and be lots happier and safer.

[Randyj]

I've never been much of a traveler and some of the hard knocks in life definitely kept me close to home. I went to Denver with my family in 1957 and a few years ago I went back there to deliver some restaurant equipment that I sold over the internet... it was a good father/son trip and mainly just to get away from a dying business. I was definitely needing a change in my life at the time. Other than that, except for basic training at Lackland AFB, I've never been north of the Mason Dixon and only a couple of times west of the Mississippi (as far as Killeen,TX) while working as a "rent-a-driver" for a truck driver employment agency.
Not knowing much about other parts of the world, I've never been anywhere that the people are any better or nicer. My neighbor lives in California. He told me that he is seriously consdering moving back here full time and that his wife can come if she wants to or just stay there. His whole reasoning is simply that there is just such a big difference in the people and the lifestyle. If you've not been around since the 80's I can tell you that the traffic on 280 has only gotten worse. I-459 is open 1/2 way around Birmingham (on the south side of I-59)... and Birmingham is #4 in the nation in it's rate of murders... highly concentrated in inner city black areas...lots of drugs and drive by shootings. Downtown is highly minority oriented and most contracts are going to minority owned companies. Alot of the old department stores and other buildings are being converted into loft apartments. I worked with a contractor last spring plumbing one of these... the old Blach's department store. These seem like alot of kickback, high dollar, schemes to me..and very politically backed...but that's politics everywhere. Alabama & Auburn are still the big colleges to watch and football is all anyone wants to talk about except for lots of folks into NASCAR racing. The growth around Birmingham has been nothing short of phenomenal. Hiway 280 has developed tremendously all the way out past Chelsea with high dollar everything. Trussville area has gone up the same way. All of the places that were classy and nice in the 70's are falling to the wayside, getting run down and becoming crime ridden....and people who can are moving out. Even the area around Jefferson State Jr. College which used to be heavily wooded is now heavily populated with lots of housing developments, apartments and businesses. Walmart has killed all the businesses in small towns and Target is aiming at them. Hmmm... I could probably write a book on the changes I've seen without even touching on politics and the huge growth of prisons and what an industry that has become.

[Randyj]

Should I ever make it back to T'town I'll seriously consider having them make package I can send you and hubby. We do have a couple of good BBQ places. Near Hanceville there's a place almost out in the road "Top Hat". And, near the walker county line there's Green Top. Both are super good and hard to truly enjoy without a good cold beer.

[Randyj]

Don't know what to say to that... I've got 3 ex-wives but none resulted from that fate. Fortunately...maybe this time.. I'm really mad at this woman that lives with me because she didn't come into my life 30 or so years ago. It sure could have saved me lots of grief had she been around rather than having to do so much sampling to find someone that could get along with me.

[Randyj]

I had a difficult time finding a woman who would use a shovel and get on a ladder... my prerequisites for a serious relationship!

[Randyj]

Hmmm.. a whole 'nuther thread.. I got into oil painting for a while... no time to go there.... Drop your easel and get a ladder. Starving artists don't eat well.

[Randyj]

I got weirded out for a while thinking I wanted to be the next Norman Rockwell. I had a few friends who were amazing artists...totally self taught. We critiqued and taught each other and just passed on alot of "how to" things...kinda what's happening on this here forum here.

[Randyj]

I used to do alot of SCUBA diving... no way in hell am I gonna jump out of an airplane... actually I wouldn't mind the jump... it's hitting the ground that scares me. Falling off of a ladder is scarey enough. I have issues with just climbing up on roofs.....ain't jumping out of no airplane...uh uh..no way.

[Cass]

SCUBA is great. I was certified in 1967 but haven't done it in years. I need to start it up again.

[Mike50]

SCUBA is great. I was certified in 1967 but haven't done it in years. I need to start it up again.

Me too. In 1968. My brother is a master diver.

[Randyj]

I got certified in '70.... looks like we got a bunch of old farts in this forum. I've got 3 tanks sitting on my front porch...over 10 years since last hydro. Two have k-valves and one with a J-valve.

[Cass]

Lets get together and start underwater remodeling. :)

[Randyj]

Ya... I've been trying to save up a couple of water heater tanks for ballasts on the submarine I drew plans for about 40 years ago. Hey,,. this lake has very clear water... decent visibility except on summer weekends. Maybe I'll take a couple of pictures today and show you guys what my humble abode looks like....A BIG MESS!

[Mike50]

Did you get cerified about age 18? I am proud to be 80. ONLY kidding, I will now sound young when I tell you I am now...ha, will never tell.

Cookie I was certified at 12 yo.
Some special designation called "Blue Sharks" in Los Angeles. It was one of the most difficult things I've ever done.
I had to pass the tests by all the adult standards mentally & Physically.

And in LA-back in 1968 a lot of Divers were Hard drinkin-Womanizing-pistol packing hombres.
Spending 36 hours in close quarters with these guys aboard ship near Catalina Island was
pretty eye popping for me at 13. yea buddy...
:D

[Randyj]

Yep.. 18..right out of h.s. Did it all in the indoor pool at the YWCA then did an openwater checkout in Morrison Springs, FL ... IMHO it was a wimpy course and NASDS certification... PADI was still young and I didn't even hear of it until a year or so afterwards except in Skin Diver magazine. But, hey, I got this really nice patch which looked really KEWL with my corvette patch on that nice blue windbreaker with the pretty racing stripe... and guess what?... I've still got it! One of my few artifacts from my "coming of age" years....

[Cass]

I was also a swimming instructor, Red Cross certified.

I went to a summer camp in NH that the Red X rented for their training course and when it was over we found out the during the rest of the year it was a nud*st camp!!!!:)

[Mike50]

Randy...I had a big ass Blue Shark certified diver patch on my jacket when I was 13. I thought it would impress my friends and make me popular with the girls. Had no effect what so ever.
So, I grew my hair down to my shoulders-Now That did work. lol


On my checkout dive I had to swim down 75 feet. Sit on bottom of ocean floor then take off every piece of equipment--then put it all back on.
So you start again with no air and no mask. OMG
It was so intense I didnt have time to be scared.

[Randyj]

Mike50. Much the same as we did. Morrison Springs has caves that go way deep.. like 140' but the water is super clear and warm. The ditch and recovery (removing tanks and stuff) didn't phase me. I guess I was just comfortable with diving and with the equipment. I went diving with a couple of guys off of Molasses Reef near Key West where I just threw everything overboard in 65 ft of water and dove in with my weight belt on and goggles in my hand. It was an attempt to save air and keep from hitting my head on the tank valve. I had no problem with that either... just some of those funky things kids do... man it's been such a long time ago...1977

[Cass]

I was also a Life Guard and rode a motorcycle, talk about girls...... Cookie you listening.