Should I install mixer valve? sweating toilet

[molo]

Hello all,

I have two toilets that are sweating badly, i just replaced a large patch of subfloor because of rot. I want to stop this from happening, what can i do!!!???? Will a mixer valve work? Any advice on installing one and what brand to use? I have no experience with mixer valves.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Thanks, Molo

[Verdeboy]

There was a long thread on this subject a while back. Here's the link:

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7786

[molo]

Thanks for the link Verde,

Based on the info gathered from the link, i t appears that tank insulation kits are not reliable. So....... I believe I have two options.

1. Install Mixer Valve
or
2. Buy new toilets (designed to prevent tank condensation)
Questions:
Which is better option, mixer valves or toilets?

Can anyone suggest brands or techniques of installing a mixer valve?

Does anyone kow of toilet brands/models that prevent tank condensation?
Any input is much appreciated, i need to stop the condensation from rotting the floors!

[Terry]

You can go with flapperless tanks,

Pressure assist tanks

or Insulated tanks.

Toto and other brands make insulated tanks as an option

In the Toto Drake, it's a CST744SD

Most of the time though if a tank is dripping, it's a leaking flapper causing the problem.

[molo]

Hello Terry,
Thanks for the reply, from the oracle himself. So are mixer valves a bad idea entirely? I'm pretty sure the toilet seals are ok. And a mixer valve would be cheaper than 2 new toilets.

Thanks for the response,
Molo

[Verdeboy]

They're not a bad idea. But you have to tap into a hot water line. If there isn't one close by, it can be a pain. Maybe you can just buy a couple of insulated tanks that will fit.

[Cass]

molo, get an estimate for the cost of a tempering valve installed and then you can decide if you want to keep your old toilets or go for new.

[molo]

I will be doing the work myself, so it is only a matter of materials cost. A mixer valve is much cheaper than a toilet. One way i know its not a tank/bowl seal problem is because i can see the condensation on the tank above any seals! So.........does anybody have any specific advice on mixer/valve brands and where ito install them?

[abikerboy]

A mixer valve is much cheaper than a toilet. One way i know its not a tank/bowl seal problem is because i can see the condensation on the tank above any seals! So.........does anybody have any specific advice on mixer/valve brands and where ito install them?

You may see condensation on the tank above any seals, and you will probably see it all over the tank below the water level, even if a flapper or fill valve is leaking. I went through this a couple of years ago. Never had a problem with condensation before in my life, then one nice warm day, one of my toilet tanks was sweating to beat the day! Plumber found a fill valve that was letting water trickle into the tank. Was actually leaking so small that you couldnt really notice it. He explained to me that when a tank of water sets at room temp, no problem, but if you have a slow leaking flapper, or a fill valve with a worn seal, you are constantly introducing a very small amount of fresh, cold water into the tank, always keeping the tank below room temp, and then you have condensation...sort of like leaving your cold beer on the table for a few minutes. Put some food coloring in the tank, see if it shows up in the bowl. If so, flush it all out, let it refill, put in more food coloring, and turn off the water supply. If it still shows up in the bowl with the water off, put in a new flapper. If it only shows up in the bowl with the water supply on, then put in a new fill valve. If it were mine, I would just go ahead and replace both the flapper and the fill valve. You can buy a kit at L**es that has both in it, and I would bet that the kit is even cheaper yet than a mixing valve.

[molo]

Thanks for the response abikerboy! I will try those dye tests.
Another note...........The toilets in my home get flushed all the time. Therefore, cold water from our well is always being added (every flush), and there are alot of them! I will move forward on the food coloring tests, and see what i find! I'LL BE BACK!

Thanks,
Molo

[abikerboy]

Thanks for the response abikerboy! I will try those dye tests.
Another note...........The toilets in my home get flushed all the time. Therefore, cold water from our well is always being added (every flush), and there are alot of them! I will move forward on the food coloring tests, and see what i find! I'LL BE BACK!

Thanks,
Molo
I hope this solves your problem. Good luck!

[Verdeboy]

You may see condensation on the tank above any seals, and you will probably see it all over the tank below the water level, even if a flapper or fill valve is leaking. I went through this a couple of years ago. Never had a problem with condensation before in my life, then one nice warm day, one of my toilet tanks was sweating to beat the day! Plumber found a fill valve that was letting water trickle into the tank. Was actually leaking so small that you couldnt really notice it. He explained to me that when a tank of water sets at room temp, no problem, but if you have a slow leaking flapper, or a fill valve with a worn seal, you are constantly introducing a very small amount of fresh, cold water into the tank, always keeping the tank below room temp, and then you have condensation...sort of like leaving your cold beer on the table for a few minutes. Put some food coloring in the tank, see if it shows up in the bowl. If so, flush it all out, let it refill, put in more food coloring, and turn off the water supply. If it still shows up in the bowl with the water off, put in a new flapper. If it only shows up in the bowl with the water supply on, then put in a new fill valve. If it were mine, I would just go ahead and replace both the flapper and the fill valve. You can buy a kit at L**es that has both in it, and I would bet that the kit is even cheaper yet than a mixing valve.

If the flapper was leaking, no matter how minor, you would hear the fill valve go on every now and then, and it would be loud.

You can generally tell if the fill valve is leaking by pulling out the little rubber tube that is clipped to your flush valve and looking to see if any water comes out. And, if your fill valve was leaking from the top or the bottom, you would notice that your tank was overflowing, and you would be able to hear a drip drip drip sound if it was quiet enough.

[plumber1]

Tempering valves are not expensive and if your toilet sits next to a vanity just connect them in the cabinet and run the supply line. It will not look bad and will solve your problem.

[Mikey]

I inadvertantly avoided this problem when I re-plumbed my house overhead following an under-slab leak. During the summer, the tank always refills with water well above the dewpoint -- late in the afternoon, it's about 120 degrees. It'll be a little chillier in the winter, but then the humidity is low enough I doubt there'll be a problem.

[molo]

I think I'm going with a mixer valve. Can i simply build one by doing the following?

1. Putting a ball valve on a hot water line
2. Putting a flow controls on the hot and cold lines
3. Combining the hot and cold lines after the flow controls.

If this will work I'll do it, if not I'll buy them from the store.

Thanks for any input.
Molo

[plumber1]

Price out a Dole or another tempering valve. It might be cheaper to go that route.
It sure would be a lot safer than a cracked, leaking toilet tank.......

[molo]

I am wondering if the tempering valve will work for my toilet that is far away from the hot water tank. Will the water warm up in time? Anyone with any suggestions or experience will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Molo

[Cass]

If it is a newer toilet using 1.6 Gal./ flush it will depend on a combination of 3 things. The distance your toilet is from the water heater and if your water lines are copper.

When you flush as the hot water is traveling down the pipe the toilet will be filling. The copper will be drawing heat from the hot water side and cooling it while the toilet is filling. The time it takes the toilet to fill and how much tempered water gets to the tank will depend on the distance. But if you shower then flush the hot water will be there from the start. That said if there will be multiple people using it like in the AM getting ready to leave and not just you 1 time it should work then also.

How far is the toilet from the heater.

I have been in some homes that it takes nearly 2 min. to get hot water to the bath.

[Mikey]

You could also install an on-demand circulating pump to draw hot water to the bathroom area prior to flushing.

[molo]

I bought mixer valves yesterday, there is a set screw foir adjusting the amount of hot water, and not the cold. It would be nice if you could control the flow of both, because I would cut the cold down, and turn up the hot. I'm wodering if I should install a ball valve on the cold before the tempering valve so I can control the amount of cold. Also, Mikey, I have no experience with those heaters you mentioned, are they expensive?

Thanks,
Molo

[jadnashua]

He was referring to a pump to keep hot water in the area. Doing this on its own might solve your problem, since unless you have a dedicated return line, the thing pushes water from the hot line into the cold line, which eventually runs back to the WH tank. The system consists of a pump, a check valve, and a control that turns the pump on or off. It is used to keep the water in the hot line from cooling off in between uses. If it doesn't have a dedicated return line, it warms up the cold water , and that might be enough on its own to keep the toilet from sweating. If it wasn't and you had one installed, you'd still gain from having hot water when you wanted.

Another alternative is to put a small tank under the sink to provide hot water quicker there; then, you don't have to keep circulating water around. It would be insulated better than your pipes, and you'd have a fairly constan hot water source.

[Mikey]

Jim was close; actually I was talking about an on-demand circulating pump. I've got a couple of "chilipepper" appliances (http://www.chilipepperapp.com/), one at each end of the supply manifold that runs the length of the house (about 75'). These connect to both the hot and cold lines, and when triggered by a pushbutton, they pump water from the hot side into the cold side until the water reaches a settable temperature. This brings hot water to this point, and also warms up a small quantity of cold water as the warming hot side is returned to the cold side.

Plumbing your toilet with this kind of device in the system would be an interesting exercise, with several options.

The small WH at the toilet is also an interesting option -- do they make a 1.6 gallon tankless WH? Another option would be to buy a cheap immersion heater (like they use for aquariums/aquaria -- http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/set.../TPheaters.htm (http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/setupequipment/tp/TPheaters.htm) --) and leave it in the tank. Pray that it doesn't short out :eek: .

[plumber1]

I have to remind you that a thermostatic tempering valve would be much better. That's the only way I would go if it were my toilet.

[molo]

Hi again,

Thanks for the input everyone, I'm still forming an understanding of this subject. I'm interested in the thermostatic tempering valve that Plumber1 mentioned. Any more info on these?

Thanks alot,
Molo

[jadnashua]

What you want is to add warm water to the tank, or at least warm enough so it is above the dew point. A tempering valve will work fine if the water in the hot line is warm enough. Problem is, it might be the same as the cold water line, depending on the way the pipes are run and how long it has been since you ran hot water. That is why I thought of a circulation pump, it keeps the hot water line charged with hot or at least warm water when activated (this could be on a timer, by using a demand momentary timed activation, or with an on/off switch). Unless you have a dedicated return line, the thing works by pumping the cooled off water in the hot line through a bypass into the cold water line until you've got hot where the sensor is, the timer runs out, or you turn off the switch depending on how you have it set up.

If your water line doesn't have to run very far, the hot water won't be far away, and there'll be enough to actually raise the water out of the tempering valve above the dew point. But, if it is a long run, or the pipes run along a wall where they can cool off a lot, even with a tempering valve, it may not get above the dew point.

They make small electric hot water tanks that will easily fit under a typical vanity. This would supply hot water instantly, making the tempering valve always have a supply to raise the water temperature above the dew point. It would also make it so you'd have immediate hot water at the vanity near the toilet rather than having to run the water for awhile. You wouldn't need to have it set very high, say maybe 105 or so which would limit the radiation loss.

Keep in mind that on a hot humid day, the dew point can be at or very close to room temperature. If you ran a dehumidifier or an a/c, that would lower the dew point, and minimize the problem.

I'd try it with just the tempering valve, then decide if anything else was needed. The circulation system might make hot water use at the rest of the house quicker and more pleasant.

[Verdeboy]

Here's another link to "sweaty" toilet tank remedies.

http://www.factsfacts.com/MyHomeRepair/ToiletSweats.htm

[molo]

OK,
I'm going to get toi the bottom of the sweaty toilet subject! Thanks for the links Verde. I'm wondering now if I can avoid a new toilet, mixervalves, mini hot water tanks, etc. Is it true, that I can get a tray to put under the tank and catch the condensing water? I'm sure this would be easy to fabricate, then I'd have to decide where I could drain it.


Sweating it,

Molo

[Mikey]

Let's see... you've got a container of water near a toilet. Where might you drain it :confused: ?

[molo]

I dont think a tray will work, because the bowl sweats too! So, I'm back to the mixer valve or a different toilet.

Molo

[Mark H.]

This may or may not be of any help. Indoor condensation (and therefore mold) is a huge issue for homeowners in our area, although our summer temperatures are usually in the mid-60s and rarely reach 80 degrees. One of the things that helped us a lot was to install "real" air exhaust systems in both bathrooms. You mount the air pumps in the attic (using a bicycle tire to insulate them from structural members so that you don't hear them running), and vent them to the outside as usual. The in-ceiling variety of exhaust fan you see everywhere is basically useless in a humid environment.

And from having partially flooded three times in the last 11 years, we've learned that air movement is the key to drying things out. Heat doesn't really help and it increases mold growth, and even a commercial dehumidifier can only do so much (and dehumidifiers cost a fortune to run). An ordinary fan, however, is very effective at keeping things dry.

Good luck, Molo. I look forward to reading about the solution that works for you.

Best wishes,

Mark H.

[molo]

Can i vent the thing your talking about out the side of the house? I would have to run any vent hose through the floor above to get to the attic.

Thanks, Molo

[jadnashua]

If the humidity is high outside, just blowing air through the house isn't going to dry it out much. It is only if the humidity in the house is higher than that outside where it makes a big difference. Now, moving enough air might make you feel cooler, and it will help a little. The humidity added by cooking or bathing is best removed at the point of generation...size the vent large enough and let it run long enough to get the humidity at least as low as it is outside. A stove vent that doesn't exhaust outside is a grease trap, but does nothing much for odors or anything for moisture and, in my opinion, is mostly cosmetic, and almost useless.

But, if you live somewhere hot and humid, unless you remove the moisture, while enough people are flushing the toilet to keep it cool, it won't keep it from sweating - the water needs to be in there long enough to warm up above the dew point and then the moisture to evaporate. WIth any kind of frequent use, it will just stay wet all day unless you warm up the water before putting it in the tank.

[Mark H.]

Hi Molo,

You can vent through the wall, but it might be noisy since you'd be creating a hole to the outdoors and your air pump would be right there on the other side of the wall. Perhaps that's not the best solution. I think you're back to warming your inlet water. :(

Jim, I don't understand the physics of it, but blowing air around actually dries out soaked carpets, etc., even when it is raining outside. It's totally counter-intuitive (at least to me), but it works.

Good luck, Molo and best wishes,

Mark H.

[plumber1]

The more I read molo's comments I think he needs to repair the darned toilet.

[molo]

Haste makes waste, and there is no condensation problem right know because it's autumn/winter. I'm just trying to find the right solution, and do it right the first time. Anyway, this will be a good threrad for people to refer to in the future, so that they can learn about this common problem.

Molo

[plumber1]

Well, thank you for your persistence. I'm sure it helped others, but your question does comes up regularly....

[molo]

I'm going to install the mixer valves and won't know till next summer if they work, (unless i create a controlled high humidity environment in the bathroom). Time will tell.

Thanks all,
Molo

[dircom]

Get something like a Niagara Conservation Toilet. No tank sweating.