New Construction Plumbing Layout

[eyeglow]

I'm on the final phase of my home plans but the plumbing layout has me stumped. I'm including an attachment in the hopes a plumbing person can tell me if I'm going in the right direction. I have no idea how to layout this pipe work...Only guessing at this. House is on a raised foundation and I'm in Southern Calif if that helps. Thank you

[kordts]

Don't run at bastard angles. Everything needs to be squared off the floor joists. I would run a 3" main drain.

Helpful Plumbing Hints for Residential Construction by Bert Polk Plumbing Inspector Lincoln County (http://www.co.lincoln.or.us/planning/plumbing/apps/plumbingguide.pdf)

[master plumber mark]

of course you are going to get a whole bunch of opinions here
just like when you ask directions from a crowd of people...

so get ready for a big debate..

The only thing that I would certanly change..is the kitchen line

come off the 4 inch well before you get to the bathroom
to run to to the laundry.....run 2 inch over into that area.....

Shoot directly for the laundry makeing it the MAIN run.. then come off with a wye along the way for the kit ....vent both together above the floor going out the roof or whatever is code...for vents.

you dont want all that laundry water to come crashing into a joint at
the kitchen and then makeing a turn...you want it to flatten out
in the pipe before it passes the kitchen......if that makes sense ...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The bathroom is probably ok because you are running a 4 inch
drain.... but you will get many opinions here...


but I would probably kill that double wye under the floor.
(personal preference) Though it probably would work ok
being so large a pipe and a vent going to the lavaroty
in the same joint.......that is up for debate......


come off the line going to the lavatory with a wye for the drain to the shower which gives the shower a wet vent off the lavatory do all this in 2 inch.... ( again personal preference)

either way will probably pass ok

of course the lavatory vent going out the roof is the vent for the whole bathroom group , I dont know what size vent is legal in california, but here I can get away with a 1 1/2 vent

have fun fun fun

[prashster]

If it's a raised foundation, then is there any reason to run through the center of the floorplan? Why not run the laundry/kitchen line 'west' to the nw corner of the house, then south along the foundation. Similarly, the bathroom gp would run 'south' and then at the southern wall of the foundation, turn west to the septic.

Supporting the drains against the foundation instead of the floor joists can reduce the noise transmission thru the floor.

Also this way yr vents can run up the external wall instead of trying to finagle them through interiors.

[hj]

The picture looks good as a general idea, but so has every other plan view of a plumbing system. The real test is when you do the actual installation because that is when all the vagaries come in that cannot show in a drawing such as yours. It is also the reason building departments want isometric drawings because they also show the vertical pipes and how connections are being made.

[mn_nobody]

definately move your wye for the kitchen and the wash box further back behind the bathroom group. you don't want the washer dumping water into the main drain ahead of the bathroom group.

[eyeglow]

I want to thank everyone for there response to my questions. I hope I'm heading in the right direction on this. I like the idea of running the pipe along the outside, it just looks cleaner. However, I'm no plumber so please let me know if this is not acceptable. I have other questions..

1: Kitchen vent, can I vent both the washer and kitchen sink through the outside wall (note where circle and arrow are placed)? I made that whole line 2" and vent 2", is that correct?

2: Bathroom - will I need three separate pipes that go up into the attic for venting, then put all of them together so only one vent comes out of the roof?

3: I understand the bath sink needs an S trap and a bathtub also needs an S trap. However, I just have a shower so I need to find out if the shower is the same as a bath.... needing an S trap or can I just us an elbow?

Here's the new sketch:

Thanks again,

[master plumber mark]

it actually looked better the first way you had it

all those bends around the corners of the house are

only going to clog up someday...

and a longer run to have to clean out someday


though I dont know if this is a basement or a crawl space

if it is a crawl I would go the path of least resistaqnce


It will all work out.....

if you got a fax number..........leave it here

[hj]

You are regressing and making the system worse. I install the plumbing the most direct and shortest way possible. With that in mind, I would put the vertical stack behind the lavatory. The toilet would connect with a fitting we call a "Wisconsin", Chicago calls a "cottage tee", and MA calls an Easterbrook, which would be angled towards the toilet's location. The 2" side branch would go to the tub. If the distance were too long then I would install a secondary vent on it.

[geniescience]

draw Wye's not T's where you intend to put Wye's.

Don't call p traps 'S traps'. Showers need P-traps. Everything needs a P trap. Except toilets, as they already have one inside at the bottom of the bowl.

Put a Wye near the toilet, to connect the sink. Put another Wye downstream, but still close, to connect the shower. This will give better venting that will ensure the toilet flushes as it was designed to. Otherwise it may swirl water for a second or two, and then whoosh fast and even open up its P trap letting sewer gases come out before the fill mechanism fills the bowl and tank again.

A single vent for your bathroom group is sufficient. 2". If the vent can go to your sink, then your shower will have venting upstream of its Wye. This is good.


I am not a plumber. Not do I play one for friends and family.

david

[prashster]

I don't believe it's ok to vent plumbing vents THROUGH the outside wall ( exhaust fan/hood vent/dryer vents are ok). Plumbing vents release sewer gasses which can be harmful to people, so there are clearance requirements from windows and doors. The safest thing is to vent through the roof.

I'm not a pro, so I defer to their opinion that plumbing lines shld be as straight and short as poss. How big is the space under the floor? If it's a basement, then going down the center of the ceiling cuts the head space. I think that's why the bldr did it that way in my home (although I do have a spec house from a nat'l builder, and there perhaps there were cost-cutting reasons they did it...)

[eyeglow]

Ok, I went back to the old print and hopefully I was able to understand what I was suppose to do. I had no idea it was this hard to put this together. I changed some things. I also forgot to put in the main water line and where to connect it to. I can do most things but plumbing is NOT one of them as you can well see. It just isn't sinking in.

[Cass]

O.K. instead of going from the 4" line to the kitchen go directly to the washing machine, straight line, and use 2" pipe. Then go from the kitchen to the 2" line.

Your drawing has it the other way around.



A bathroom on the second floor using flat venting and wyes.
Vents below 42" need to be waste fittings.
http://www.terrylove.com/images/bathroom_rough_flat_vent2.jpg
Added by Terry Love

[geniescience]

not hard, no worry,:) eyeglow. Your last drawing is good. :D

In addition to the two Wyes marked as Wyes you have two other ones. However, it is obvious that they are Wyes since the geometry of the lines shows their shape. If you write that two are Wyes, and not the other two, you raise doubts and questions. OK, I know I'm picking nits.;)

I drew a line drawing. I'm not there, I don't have a view, I can't see what challenges you really have -- so do not rely on my ideas, or on this drawing, for anything other than the fact that it shows some concepts.

You read earlier that master plumber Mark said to make the washing machine line a straight line. Cass just said it again a few minutes ago. That is what I drew here.

I drew a little circle near the bathroom sink, on the drain line. This is where I might put a vent going up inside the wall. I repeat, that I am not on site, nor do I want to be. You will do things differently, because you have to. There is a limit as to how much you can get done over the phone when the expert is not on premises. Worse, I am not an expert, and I have not seen your place even once. Reality will dictate other solutions. Let this be understood.

I might use a 3" diameter pipe for the toilet. Either all the way to the outside, or up till the last connection, or up till the shower connection. That could be worth a discussion here. Reason: solids flush better in a 3" pipe -- proven in a CMHC study, which I might be able to locate and point to later.

david
p.s. You can right-click on the image and "save as" or copy onto your computer. Size is 4k.

[hj]

Because of velocity issues, a larger pipe than necessary is not always a desirable thing.

[eyeglow]

Thanks everyone for the info... Hopefully this new drawing is getting me closer. On the new drawing I didn't draw in where the vents will be but I'm assuming that the bathroom one can be vented right above the first Wye after the toilet. Is that correct? The next vent is in the interior wall in the washer line. By the way, thanks for the info on the drain line. I assumed that bigger was better... Now I understand it's not.

[prashster]

I know the pros counselled you to do everything straight and that those angles are fine. But in the bathroom is there really a need to run at 45's?

The problem(?) with yr bathroom layout is that you can only have 1 vent for the whole bathroom since the drain doesn't pass under a wall cavity until after the wye. If you ran each fixture first into its respective wall, you can vent up individually through it and loop the vents together. In fact, if u don't vent until after the wyes, then wouldn't you be creating an s-trap condition on that sink? (Unless yr planning to run the drain 18" above ground to the junction). You'd need a vent at the point it goes into into the floor else you risk a siphon there.

I've seen it written time and time again here that fixtures SHOULD be indiv vented.

Where's your kitchen sink vent gonna be? Are you planning to run horiz under the window along the xterior wall and tie into the laundry vent?

[Mikey]

Hard to tell from the drawing if those are really 45s or not. You might be able to use a couple of 1/16 bends in the drains and lay things out so you could vent the sink and shower drains as they pass under the wall.

[eyeglow]

I don't think it will be a 45, it will end up more like 1 16 bend. The house is up 30" off the ground. The 3" drain pipe will start out at the toilet then it must be buried in the ground before it hits the front porch (located next to the septic tank). So there's only 12' to make the drop. My guess is that anything in that pipe will slide fast...or so I think.:D

I'm having a real problem understanding the venting system. In the kitchen, I can't vent the sink right there because of the windows. Another poster thought I couldn't use outside walls to vent so I switched to the inner wall. I thought I could use the one vent in that inner wall to vent the kitchen sink and washer.
I hope this helps better understand the drawing.

[Cass]

The kitchen sink can be vented. You can run your vent down beside the window and hit the T there. You can use outside walls. You can use inner wals also. Use what ever is easy.

[prashster]

You should get a UPC or IPC ref book - or at the very least the latest Plumbing Code Check book. There's a req'mt that the vent can't go horiz until it's some " above the flood plane of the sink. So, you can run it up and under the window. It's not going to be filled with water, so freezing is not an issue, and it being in the outside wall shldn't be an issue.

Not sure the laundry vent will be close enough to the kitchen sink to permit sharing. Further, each fix might require a dedicated vent.

[kordts]

I still don't like to see bastard angles. I hand everything square off the joists.

[Phil H2]

eyeglow,
What is the goal of your plan? If it is just for fun, I can appreciate that. Is it something you want to use for plan check to get permit? Are you planning to build (or just plumb) the house, or are you going to be hiring a contractor(s). The amount of detail on the plan can vary.

Anyway, since you are in California, the code is based on the UPC. I agree that you should get a book; a picture is sometimes worth a thousand words. You may be able use wet venting in the bathroom (you run the tub and lav drain into a vertical toilet vent). But, there are different requirements for the lengths of the pipe between the trap and the vent. There is a chapter in the UPC on drainage, another chapter on venting, and yet another chapter on traps. Eventhough much of the code will not apply to your house, there are many things to consider. For instance, the area of you vents added together need to be at least as big as the area of the drain leaving the building.

Venting under the kitchen window may not be a problem. But, you need to know what your area allows for drilling studs. We do not know if you have 2x4 walls or 2x6 walls. It could be a problem if problem if you have 2x4 studs and need to go through more than 2 adjacent studs. Also, your plan does not have any clean-outs.

If you have a plumber doing the project, he will know what to do. You do not need every detail on the drawing. The plumber will have ways that he likes to do things. There are many ways to run drains and vents. But you might want to talk to him early to see if there are things in the framing that could be changed to make life easier. If you are doing the work yourself, you will want a lot of detail.

Here are a couple links that may be helpful
This one is information sheets for the city of L.A. There isn't much for plumbing, but there is a Type V sheet that would help you with the general stucture. There is another sheet on notching and drilling that can be helpful. You may check and see if your buliding dept. has similar information because it may be slightly different. http://www.lacity.org/LADBS/faq/info_bulletins.htm#ib3

Here is some helpful information on plumbing requirements, but it may be out of date http://www.masterplumber.com/Laws/UPCExcerpts.html#toolow

[eyeglow]

The walls are 2x6. New construction. I'm going in as an Owner/Builder but the stem walls, plumbing and septic system will all be contracted out. I can do the rest myself. I've contacted 4 plumbers out my way but they've all said the same thing. They will bid on the job but won't supply me with any drawings. All of them said they use to but more and more people only wanted to pick there brain and the plumber wouldn't get the job. I can well understand that and don't blame them in the least. However, I still need to have a plumbing plan to submit to the building dept. They didn't say how technical I have to get but I'm sure they realize that when a plumber comes in, they will do it there way. I've tried to get the UPC book from the library but that was months ago and not available yet. I just want to give the building dept something and if they require more I can add to it. Hope this helps a little more. Thank you for the links.

[Mikey]

For $40 you don't need no steenking library :D :

http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=0071358994

I've also seen books in the big-box checkout area from Stanley and others (Black & Decker, I think?) that do a decent job of illustrating the basics, including planning and layout. Books like these run about $20, and should be good enough (with help from the pros here) to allow you to draw a plan that will satisfy the permitting folks.

[mn_nobody]

just hire a professional. they'll handle everything in the best way they know how. look for a smaller shop. ask around. doing this yourself can have bad repercussions. i've jackhammered up way too many DIY jobs that didn't flow, blocked, glued but not primer and on and on. just save time/money and hire a pro.

[eyeglow]

I have no intentions of doing the plumbing myself as I've stated. I know we won't get to the plumbing until Spring time. I can't hire a plumber until then but that doesn't help me now.

[geniescience]

Venting as much as possible is good, and sending your lav drain to the wall first to get venting is good. The extra bends are no big deal for a lav drain which does not need to drain a lot or fast.

The 3" drain dropping three feet over fifteen feet is too steep for my liking. You don't want to let the liquids drain away so fast that they let solids start collecting on the side walls. Liquids carry solids away, and the best slope is just a slight one.

others with more plumbing experience may wish to speak up.:)

david

[hj]

Give the plumer a contract and you will get your drawing. I would not take the time to make one until I knew I was going to do the job, otherwise the homeowner could use my drawing to get his permit and then try to do the job himself, or give it to some other plumber, along with my price quote so he could beat my price. But, in many cases the drawing is just an exercise in Creative Writing 101 to get the permit, because it has little relationship to how the piping will actually be installed.

[markts30]

1254

1255

1256
Try these on for size - sorry for the rough sketch quality....

[Floridaplumber211]

There is a few problems with this layout that I can see (conforming to Florida State Code.)

The WM is required to have a 3 inch trunk line. Also, having your shower connected between your toilet and Point of Vent is illegal. Nothing can break the vent between the two.


This is how I would do it. With with an AAV at the kitchen and lav. or VTR.

[hj]

The way you have it drawn, the kitchen sink cannot be vented, the lavatory probably will not be, and the washer may or may not be depending on how you run the pipe. You might check your county regulations also, because most septic tanks have to be at least 10' from the house. You say you don't do plumbing, and the drawing bears this out, so why are you doing it?

[jimbo]

Well, you can see that the devil is in the details. You have been offered several different solutions, all proper! A plumber on site could lay this out for you quickly.

A couple of issues: you have to vent the kitchen sink. A plumbing inspector does not care that you have a window. You have to find a way to take off a vent and run it up beside the window. You can drain the sink horizontally over to one side of the window, and take a vent off vertically in that area.

They will not want the kitchen and washer sharing a 2" line.

You have left out a lot of details about vents, and that will be your waterloo. Venting is important and complicated in the fine details.

The comment about excessive slope............that issue is discussed occasionally. It is an engineering concept, but as far as I know, there are no code limitations, or known problems, with pipe sloping too much.

Don't see too many foundations in S. Calif. Are you out in the inland empire? And is this a short cripple wall, or an actual crawl space? That will make a difference in running pipes.

[hj]

Mark30's upper left hand drawing is close to the way I would install the bathroom. The sink drain would be better if it were on the right side of the window. That would make the washer vent easier to install, and both the drain and vent for the washer would be shorter. I would also use 3" for the sewer to the septic tank. Because there will only be two vents out the roof, the one for the bathroom will have to be 3" all the way.