Is there a class action lawsuit against Kitec piping?

[ultimachi]

I recently just bought my first house a little over a month ago. One of my water pipes blew and flooded the house while we were asleep. The home warranty company sent out a couple plumbers to fix the problem, but both say that this Kitec plumbing has been recalled and is not repairable. They state that the whole house needs to be repiped.

Now the home warranty will not cover the cost of repiping the home.....but they also won't approve the repair of this pipe due to the manufacturers recall. They say it has to come out of pocket!!! I also spoke to the homeowner's insurance and they will cover all the damages from the water to the rest of the house.

So what can I do? Is there a class action lawsuit against the manufacturer? The home warranty company stated that alot of people have filed lawsuits against this manufacturer, but they won't give me any details. I'd really appreciate some direction towards a solution.

[Bob NH]

What kind of home warranty is it that won't pay for a problem that they did not reveal to you when they inspected the house before you got the warranty? I would be looking to sue the home warranty people or the inspector that told you the house was ok and resulted in you getting the warranty.

[master plumber mark]

their is no lawsuit about Kiteck that I know of


I have a salesman that is trying to get me to use it right now.....

and I will ask him about this subject....



I do know that the did have problems with

useing it in radiant systems in concrete........



those plumbers should be able to repair a simple broke pipe.....


http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFID=1214156&CFTOKEN=a63fdb-d2a1f5e3-f701-47b9-8fa2-6e3abb153d39&CFApp=2&Thread_ID=22688&mc=9

[Mike Swearingen]

Consult an attorney immediately. Seems like someone else should be responsible for this.
If there is a legal problem with that plumbing, the seller or the seller's agent may have been responsible for disclosing the problem to you prior to purchase, and may be liable if they did not.
Depends on your particular state laws.
Good luck!
Mike
(20-Year NC Real Estate Broker)

[Lakee911]

Those warranties are a bunch of bullshit. After I read mine, I called and canceled and they gave me the $360 back that the seller had paid. After you use it, you can't get a refund. They look like good selling points, but they're just free money in their pocket. I used my refund to buy a new water heater.

Sorry about your luck.

Jason

[Mikey]

Those warranties are a bunch of bullshit.

Hey, tell us what you really think.

[ultimachi]

What kind of home warranty is it that won't pay for a problem that they did not reveal to you when they inspected the house before you got the warranty? I would be looking to sue the home warranty people or the inspector that told you the house was ok and resulted in you getting the warranty.


Sorry for the long delay.

Ok here's the update. The warranty company keeps sending out plumbers from different companies as if they're going to actually fix the problem. But they all say the same thing. "We will not touch this piping due to liability issues. They don't make the fittings nor make this pipe anymore." One of the plumbers told me that alot of warranty companies wont' cover repiping of the whole house......as that's what needs to be done to mine. He said the warranty company will usually write me a check, and tell me to take care of it. More often than not, the check isn't sufficient to cover the cost of repiping the house. The plumber also stated that Kitec is Bankrupt, and many people around here have tried suing but to no avail. He said, I'm basically screwed.

As for the warranty company not covering it.....they say that they don't cover recalled items that have been issued by the manufacturer. So they are still "deciding" on what they're going to do.

As for the Homeowners insurance, the adjustor came out for all the damages and came up that the total damage alone is in excess of 21,000 dollars.

This is a bunch of crap. I know there's something I can do. I'm not going to accept a measly check to cover this. One thing that is making me wonder is that before I bought the house, I had an inspection done. The inspector found small water leaks around the bar area (Which was put in after the house was built) and leaks in the sprinkler system. We gave the option to the owner to either fix it or give me 750 dollars and I'll take care of it. They decided to give us the 750. It's funny because they were such insignificant leaks.

Another thing I noticed was that the carpet was all removed and replaced with tile in the walkways and wood floor laminate in all the rooms. And when I moved in all the walls were painted different colors. Master was green, living area and hallway lavender, rooms were purple and gold. So I had the house painted all one color when I moved in. Now when we had the baseboards removed after the flood, the same paint was underneath the baseboards.....as if maybe they had a similar problem, and had the house repainted. Also, there are cans of paint in my laundry room which match the paint they used.

Is there a way to find out if the previous owner filed a claim and to actually know if they knew they had a problem but did not disclose this? Isn't this illegal for them not to do so? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

[serge]

I don't understand. I thought that Kitec is going just fine?

Is this about polybutylene?

Serge

[master plumber mark]

Are you absolutely sure youare talking about KITEC PEX pipe????

can you take some picutures of it and post them here to look at????

They still sell it her ein Indiana and have not heard a bad work about it....


I am going to pass this on to my sales rep for fun....


but I would really like to see some DIGITAL PICS of your nightmare......


to be sure we ar talking apples and apples......

[Cass]

I think you may be talking about PB pipe. Is the pipe gray in color?

Check this link and see if this isn't what you have.

http://www.spencerclass.com/english.htm

[ss3964spd]

Read all the paper work from the warrenty company. If the paper work does not specifically state that they do not cover re-piping the house, or specifically state they do not cover "recalled" products (assuming you are in fact dealing with a recalled product), then they are responsible to cover the claim.

It does not matter a bit what they may have said over the phone.

Dan

[ultimachi]

Hey guys....sorry for another long delay. I will take pics of this nightmare and post them up. The pipe is going to the master shower. There's 2 plastic pipes in there going into 2 copper pipes. They're held on there by some plastic fittings. Well the one that blew was orange in color and says Kitec Canada on it. The other pipe is blue in color with the same writing. Give me about a half hour I'll get some pics up.

[ultimachi]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/ultimachi/House%20Disaster/P1010121.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/ultimachi/House%20Disaster/P1010120.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/ultimachi/House%20Disaster/P1010119.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/ultimachi/House%20Disaster/P1010118.jpg

[ultimachi]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/ultimachi/House%20Disaster/P1010117.jpg

[Cass]

That does not look like a Mfg. defect.

[OldPete]

Boy oh boy... ok. Base on those pics, what is it, exactly, that failed? Did a joint fail? Please be VERY specific.

Pete

[master plumber mark]

theie is no class action lawsuit on this product.....

I called my KITECH salesman and asked him about

it myself......


This should be a simple repair unless someone
rigged up this Kitech with stainless steel clamps
and did not use the proper connectors to install it...



from your one pic it looks like they riggedup something with
SS clamps tothat shower....and it blew




Probably what you got are some lazy crooked plumbers that
are trying to pull one over on you or your insurance company


call your home warranty insurance company and try to
find an honest one to come out...

[abikerboy]

I have been helping out a plumber friend lately. Very interesting, and Im learning a lot as well. We have repaired some of this type of tube, but we dont use the hose clamps like in the picture. I would think that this is a big no no, and an accident in the waiting. We use a retaining ring (cant remember what he calls them) and a tool to clamp and crimp this ring. Very simple and secure if you do it right. I cant see why there would be any legal issue with this tube because we can get all of the rings and as much of the tubing that we want.

[OldPete]

Yup. Basically, if you found this:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/ultimachi/House%20Disaster/P1010118.jpg

in your home, with the stainless radiator clamps, and all, and YOU didn't do it, that is totally WRONG WRONG WRONG.

The crimp method (pics above) are correct...

I don't know about the pics that have the "indents" in them... that doesn't look right... anyway... sounds to me like you have more homework to do. :(

Pete

[Cass]

The close up of the piece of bad pipe looks like / similar to the holes in the hose clamp.

[Phil H2]

ultimachi,
Perhaps you should explain the pictures. To me, it looks like the adapter going to the copper pipe broke rather than the tubing failing. The photo with two worm drive hose clamps looks like a carriage bolt plugging the end of the tube. I assume that your homeowners insurance will cover the water damage. You might try contacting the manufacture of Kitec to see if they know someone in your area that can evaluate your piping and perform the repair. I think Ipex makes Kitec http://www.ipexinc.com/ . I guess you could contact an attorney if you think that the home warranty company is renigging. I know this must be a very frustrating time for you. But, the previous homeowners may not been aware of any problems. People paint and remodel for many reasons. It does not sound like you have uncovered any signs of previous water damage.

[robert520]

Kitec had a recall in 2005 because of leaks at the fittings. It was their PEX-AL-PEX product (pex, aluminum, pex). The leaks were caused by bimetallic corrosion that would be brought on by expansion and contraction of the tubing rubbing against the brass fitting. The inside layer of pex would wear away and expose the aluminum. Aluminum and brass in contact would leak pretty quickly.

Sometime later, some bubba saw this leak and added a hose clamp to stop it. If the hose clamp was installed during original installation then the plumber was most likely not certified by the manufacturer or is an idiot or both.

PEX is easy to install but rules have to be followed. The water valves have to be supported if they are subject to weight, like a hose bib on the side of your house. Water stop valves on toilets and sinks are usually not subject to weight problems, yanking and constant on and off of the valve handle so leaving them unsupported is OK. Would I want a clamp on the short brass stub on the stop valve? You bet, as a nice to have.

I am dealing right now with a manufacturer certified plumber that thinks kinks are OK as long as it is in PEX-AL-PEX. He thinks the aluminum protects the pipe. The purpose of the aluminium is to stop O2 migration through the pipe wall, the secondary benefit is it lays straight and has a slightly smaller bend radius And that is it!

Its a dangerous world out there.

[ultimachi]

Sorry for the long delay again. Ok. I spoke to a plumber that I was referred to by the homeowners insurance adjuster (not the warranty company just to be clear). The plumber also stated that Kitec is still in business, just like you guys stated. He also stated that it is repairable.

The clamp you see on the pipe was rigged by me. I stuffed a bolt covered in teflon down in there, and clamped it down using the metal clamps so I can turn the water back on in the rest of the house.

I just looked at a piece of the plumbing and it is Pex-aluminum-Pex plumbing. There is a thin layer of aluminum in between the Pex.

Now this is really pissing me off because someone could have fixed this and I would have been able to get the repairs on the house started. I will contact the warranty company tomorrow and see what they say. Shouldn't there be some sort of compensation for all the crap that I have to go through? I had to live without water in the house for 2 weeks all the while the toilets smelled like an outhouse, and showers had to be taken at a friends place. It's just ridiculous.

[Cass]

I have never heard of anyone receiving damages, in a case like yours, for aggravation.

[Mikey]

I would just pick the friend I shower with more carefully...

[master plumber mark]

the peopel that were sent out are idiots and oron drugs...

they probably collected the $100 deductabe from you too...

they fed you a line of shit probably because they dont know how to

repair kitech in the first place...




call and get another plumber to come out there from the place....

call the place and ask for a manager in charge and tell them

your long story and you want a second opinion.

[JohnyChevyEG]

This is why I will never pay for a home warranty myself. AES keeps trying to get me to get set up, but I refuse. Why? Because if you read the fine print, they clearly state that they do not have to make things right for you, if they so choose. This escape clause is standard for just about any extended type warranty that you may purchase for any product. They could either refund you the money you paid, or they could offer you an amount much less than retail. These people are snakes.

[master plumber mark]

I work for a number of home warranty comapnies....

what they warranty for $395 per year is wear and tear...

we have generally found that they keep their word

and make repairs or change out heaters and plumbing

other problems one problem at at time.......

we change out a lot of heaters and disposals for a
$100 deductable....

hvac people make repairs and change out AC uint
all summmer long....

Most people dont complain when you change out their leaking 50 gallon gas power vent heater ($1200) for only $100. Thats a pretty good deal......



if you read the fine print it is wise to be in the house for at least 30 days before makeing a claim........

Its hard to believe but I have actually had people call me BEFORE they have ever moved into their used house and expected me to re-model the whole place for them cause they got this insurance!!

they get totally irate when I expalin to them what they
bought...

no they wont re-build your home from scratch...
even if it is falling down

for $395.

its only common sense folks....

you arent gonna get something for nothing.....





this fellow with the Kitec really does not have much of a problem at all

all he has to do it raise some hell
with the place and get another plumber out there
and the problem can be solved in 5 minutes....


or he can forgoe the waranty company and
call anyone in town and pay about $150



and have the damn thing repaired tomorrow

if he has been without water for two weeks
and hasnt raised holy hell its no ones fault but his

no body is gonna take up this fight for him


and the only compensation or satisfaction he can hope for
is to get the plumber that came out fired from the warranty copmpany

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Don't tell me you work for AHS. They've called me numerous times and I'm the capital one commercial, the answer is always NO.

[master plumber mark]

I work for a whole lot of them

Cross country home services is the best one....

and its no big deal to me......been with them 15 years


they have a hard time finding honest plumbers.....
and once they know you arent going to bend them over
and slam it to them you do quite a lot of work....


usually most problems are covered by the $100 deductble

I go out all the time for $100.....service call....

usually when a disposal happens I get about $220 for one

customer pays 100 they pay 120.......

water heaters the same way.....

I get about 3 to 10 calls a week directly from their customer

and I have been doing it for so long that no questions are asked

when i call in my bills.....

paperwork can be a problem sometimes....

they presently owe me about 6 k and I am waiting for
the check.....

the check always eventually arrives and its never bounced yet....

its all good.....

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I'd say that it is great for any company trying to make baseline income but AHS and that 2-10 home warranty company is notorious for excluding what normal occurrences are.

I used to work for a company that did all American Home Shield. I can't sit and trade phone calls back and forth to the company in the customer's home for like seems an eternity and catch what falls through the cracks.

It might make a buck but I love my customer base and it keeps growing all based on repeat business and word of mouth. Of course I keep my internet ties and other methods running as well but I don't need another company orchestrating my calls. AHS will make you think you have no life other than their customer base.....and you can't say no to thier customers; you have to "do em all" or you don't get the gravy.

If you have a company with numerous employees then it is worth it if you have patience to deal with it all. I'm running solo so I can't be committed to one avenue of customers. I have to keep that repeat customer happy for as long as I can.

AHS makes their rounds through the companies here in my area; all the plumbers walk away from them eventually with hair loss, having to take prozac.

[master plumber mark]

we basically do he work cause its there....

no advertiseing $$ needed to get it and they call me....

its not too much of a hassell and the calls seem to come

in when we are slow , so its a convienant arrangement



Now if I was running totally solo I would probably not be doing half

the work I presently do......just to pay the idiots

I have working for me...

[JohnyChevyEG]

Mark,

While I totally would agree that 400 bucks a year to ensure that all issues would be corrected seems like a decent price, I feel in the long run, for most people, it's not a good option. This company is in it for the money. You probably dont hear about the many times that AHS does not cover things as advertised. I personally know someone who had insane HVAC issue, that should have been covered, but wasn't. The guy had AHS for about 6 months in a 5 year old house that he purchased. The system failed, and AHS refused to fix the issue. They told him they would refund him the warranty premium and that it was well within their rights to do so. He got his money back, but any company that doesn't stand by what they advertise, is not doing something right. There are many reviews on the net, related to issues like that, and AHS finding excuses not to cover repairs.

[master plumber mark]

i work for cross country home services....


american home serivces I am not sure of.....

In my opinion , the policy can sell a house for you


and either way most of them are better

than nothign what so ever.....


got my check in the mail today for 5300.... whew....

[awryone]

Here's a site that has information about a class action lawsuit against Kitec filed in Las Vegas, Nevada: http://bueller.com/index.html They posted pictures of cut-away views of the affected fittings.

[Cass]

Well.... I don't use the aluminum type pipe for water lines. It will be interesting to see wheat the cause was when the courts are fininshed. There seems to be nothing between KITEC and brass but between the brass and copper. The claim is to much zink in the brass reacting with the copper causing the problem. Maybe a bad batch from China.

[juniper]

looking into the above link, but it does not work ?????

is this a real lawsuit ???

[Dunbar Plumbing]

It was last week. Go to any search engine and copy/paste that URL.

More than likely it was cached and you'll be able to view the info on that link.


Here,

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.bueller.com/


Apparently it has been "wiped clean" it looks. :disgusted:

[OhNoNevada]

Here is the proper link:

www.plumbingdefect.com

[rudytheplbr]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/ultimachi/House%20Disaster/P1010117.jpg

That piece of tubing in the pics you uploaded to us, look like it has been sqeezed with a pair of slip joint pliers (Channel Locks) and thereby damaged to where it would eventually leak. I doubt the installing plumber did this, but could be... actually it looks like some one tried using the pliers to hold back up when trying to tighten the nut showing in the first pic. The former owner may be liable for this damage.:mad:

Good Luck,
Rudy

[ultimachi]

Here is the proper link:

www.plumbingdefect.com



Oh YES!!! Exactly what I've been waiting for. Couldn't have been better timing. The homeowners insurance is ready to settle, and the warranty company is avoiding my requests for action. I'm starting to get tired of this. Do I still have to hire a lawyer even though this lawsuit is in motion?

Anyway to find out if the previous owner would have known about the problem but not disclose it to me when I bought the house? Who do I need to contact? Thank you all for your help.

[geniescience]

i agree with Master plumber Mark, that this thread smells fishy. Welcome to the World's Friendliest Plumbing Shower and Remodeling web site, but still I find it hard to belive that the man named Ultimachi hasn't called Kitec or Ipex to talk to them, and then told us about it. The pictures are grainy, he hasn't described them, and we can't see in 3D what the problem might have been. When he said he had been without water for two weeks, it was more like six weeks since his first post when he already had the problem. He didn't say which city he is in; yet he would like to know about liability in real estate transactions (which varies based on local law). His description of what the Warranty compnay has said, is sketchy. His description of what the plumbers have said, is bare-bones. I find it hard to believe that a plumber would lie, or fabricate an answer, about what he can do when sent out by a firm that would track him later.

That'll be enough. For the record. :)

I hope the Kitec Ipex people, who are being blasted the most here, manage to get a word in somehow. The fittings that were recalled is a known issue that the firm faced up to readily, as far as I am aware.

If I'm too harsh, forgive me in advance; no warring please. PM me.

David

[serge]

:confused:

I just called Cox&Sons plumbing in Las Vegas and they don't know anything about this lawsuit......

There some rotten fish around here.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

:confused:

I just called Cox&Sons plumbing in Las Vegas and they don't know anything about this lawsuit......

There some rotten fish around here.


Did you direct them to this site and the source URL so they can do something about it?


You can run but you cannot hide - Peter Frampton

[Davebirka-white]

We are class action attorneys who specialize in defective building materials. We have extensive experience in defective plumbing pipe, specifically the ABS pipe cases involving 5 manufacurers. These cases took place over a period of 15 years and homeowners are still being paid under the class action settlements. We work closely with plumbing experts and materials experts and have for many years. If the homeowner who is having the problem with the Kitec pipe would like to discuss this problem further, we can be reached at www.birka-white.com or 415-616-9999.

[ultimachi]

i agree with Master plumber Mark, that this thread smells fishy. Welcome to the World's Friendliest Plumbing Shower and Remodeling web site, but still I find it hard to belive that the man named Ultimachi hasn't called Kitec or Ipex to talk to them, and then told us about it. The pictures are grainy, he hasn't described them, and we can't see in 3D what the problem might have been. When he said he had been without water for two weeks, it was more like six weeks since his first post when he already had the problem. He didn't say which city he is in; yet he would like to know about liability in real estate transactions (which varies based on local law). His description of what the Warranty compnay has said, is sketchy. His description of what the plumbers have said, is bare-bones. I find it hard to believe that a plumber would lie, or fabricate an answer, about what he can do when sent out by a firm that would track him later.

That'll be enough. For the record. :)

I hope the Kitec Ipex people, who are being blasted the most here, manage to get a word in somehow. The fittings that were recalled is a known issue that the firm faced up to readily, as far as I am aware.

If I'm too harsh, forgive me in advance; no warring please. PM me.

David



I don't get it.....you think I would sign up on a plumbing site just to lie about my pipes busting? And a plumber wouldn't lie? Maybe not, but what it looks like is that none of them wanted anything to do with repairing this piping. They suggested a complete repiping of the whole house. To me it seems that they don't want to jeopardize their business by repairing faulty piping, which I totally understand. I'd be the same way.

Now I'm speaking to one of the attorneys handling this class action lawsuit. He's sending me all the paperwork needed to get in on the lawsuit. He stated that my house will have to be repiped.

What do you want me to explain about the pics? I told you guys what happened, and took pics of the damage. You're sitting here jumping to conclusions without any evidence to backup your accusations. I'm here to get some advice and input from people.....not to troll around and make fake threads about my water pipe blowing out in a barely decade old house.

As far as Kitec getting a "word" in about their product......who cares? The fact that between 35,000-50,000 homes in Las Vegas, NV alone are affected by their crappy pipe fittings makes any "word" they say redundant. And as far as speaking to Kitec....no I haven't. I tried looking everywhere for some type of contact info, but to no avail. I even called the number in the link for Chuck Walters and left a detailed voicemail.....never received a call back.

Anyways, I appreciate everyone that helped me out. I will still refer back to this thread in the time being for new advice.

[geniescience]

ok. i must be mistaken.

don't let me, one guy, spoil your experience with the whole site.

[Terry]

I just sent the link to Ipex for comment.

It's only fair that they know what is being posted here so they can comment.
I myself, have no personal experience with the product, I use another brand that my local supplier carries.

[Mahybar]

I jst found out through the mail that I am involved in a Class Action lawsuit against Kitec. There are about 35,000 - 50,000 homes in Las Vegas that are affected by this defect of Kitec. The website is plumbingdefect.com.

[Maggie M]

Are you kidding? There is a massive class action lawsuit filed against not only IPEX, manufacturers of KITEC but also agains all of the plumbers in our area (Clark County, NV) inb addition to that the plumbing wholesalers have also been named in the suit. There are aproximately 2500 homes involved just in my development alone plus another 50,000 homes with Kitec plumbing in the Las Vegas Valley alone.

Personally I have not had any problems (knock wood) as yet. There have been only a few homes in our development that have had a problem, but some of the houses are only 2 years old. The developer switched to a different system in late 2004 so none of the additional 3,000 homes built have them same plumbing systems.

My daughter who lives in another area of this valley actually had a major break and water literally poured down 20+ feet of entry tile. The first and all subsequent plumbers they called all said the same thing: "won't touch it because it is KITEC and there are too many liabilities".

The good news for us is that our builder (Pulte) is offering a settlement, but their are other implications in accepting the settlement. Our daughter just has to wait it out too see what happens. Her builder did fix her plumbing but did not replace anything, she and her husband are waiting to see what happens because the quote to replumb her house was $30,000.

[Maggie M]

There is a massive class action lawsuit filed against not only IPEX, manufacturers of KITEC but also against several of the plumbers in the Las Vegas area, (including Cox & Sons) in addition to that the plumbing wholesalers have also been named in the suit. There are aproximately 2500 homes involved just in my development alone plus another 50,000 homes with Kitec plumbing in the Las Vegas Valley alone.

Personally I have not had any problems (knock wood) as yet. There have been only a few homes in our development that have had a problem, but some of the houses are only 2 years old. The developer switched to a different system in late 2004 so none of the additional 3,000 homes built have them same plumbing systems.

My daughter who lives in another area of this valley actually had a major break and water literally poured down 20+ feet of entry tile. The first and all subsequent plumbers they called all said the same thing: "won't touch it because it is KITEC and there are too many liabilities".

The good news for us is that our builder (Pulte) is offering a settlement, but their are other implications in accepting the settlement. Our daughter just has to wait it out too see what happens. Her builder did fix her plumbing but did not replace anything, she and her husband are waiting to see what happens because the quote to replumb her house was $30,000.[/QUOTE]

[crimsonfyre]

This is the first i've learned of the lawsuit, i'm curious about the lawsuit. it doesnt really say if the fittings are red or yellow brass. I'm assuming most of the problem is inside so it would be yellow brass.

[master plumber mark]

That seems a little high.....

For $25,000 and plane fare,

I will fly out to Las Vegas and

do the job myself....... are they re-doing the house in gold pipe??

your daughters house simply cant be that difficult.

(maybe I am wrong)

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I think it has to do with more than just the pipe. It has to do with

dismantling the plumbing system.......which involves no water lines for a number of days, it would be a matter of hours if you are dumb enough to put that kind of pipe back in.


Walls will be opened, new holes have to be drilled because I'm sure the owners want NOTHING of the same going back in.

All walls/ceilings/trim/wallpaper/demolition costs/materials to put back I believe is in those equations.

And if mold is found.......forget it.......the number isn't high enough.

It's okay for plumbers on forums boards to know the baskinrobbins 31 flavors of PEX piping and what crimp rings go with what and which ones are no longer made but


take into consideration that the average homeowner doesn't, and that is a fact. So aaaaaaaaaaaallllll these plumbers promising fast and easy and saves the homeowner money........this very thread along with a growing number of pex piping issues stemming from its growing use indicates that the coming years will definitely enforce why some are still skeptical of its use.

It's okay to use this piping unless you are a victim of its problems...at least that is what a majority of these plumbers are spouting off these days. Count me out in the majority of opinion.

Even though this particular piping doesn't have issues with the piping itself YET, it's the fittings that failed (PB ring a bell?)

[Gary Slusser]

I think it has to do with more than just the pipe. It has to do with dismantling the plumbing system.......which involves no water lines for a number of days, it would be a matter of hours if you are dumb enough to put that kind of pipe back in.

In the pictures in this thread and on the web sites shown, there is absolutely no evidence of any failure of the pipe/tubing; only the fittings and they are said to have a manufacturing defect.

Additionally, IMO the type tubing used (containing aluminum) was meant for hydronic heat systems, not potable water lines but I may be wrong on that. The aluminum in contact with the brass is said to have caused the corrosion leading to that failure. I see A LOT of corrosion in the cut away pictures, and it looks like hardness scale rather than dissimilar metals corrosion build up. Las Vegas has some very hard water.

So blaming the pipe is ridiculous, misguided and based on unfounded fears of the uninformed.

Also, this problem seems to be in a limited area; at least I don't think the problem is national. Unlike pinhole in copper tubing caused water damage that is nationwide except for limited areas and really has no solution other than a total replumb of the building.

[Downhome]

I too have been receiving information by mail regarding this lawsuit. What I don't know is whether or not my home actually has this defect or how to find out.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

My attitude is like pinholes in copper.




Even though this particular piping doesn't have issues with the piping itself YET, it's the fittings that failed (PB ring a bell?)


Did you take the time to even read my reply?

Other than a driver's license......do have any license in the profession of plumbing to back up your analogies regarding piping systems?

Do you realize that whenever plastic piping fails ONCE AGAIN you are the first to defend it? You're predictable......and oh let's not forget NSF61....

copper pipe killing everyone and even though code approved and lasts 70 plus years AND COUNTING

Aren't you the same person in another thread stating that a PVC glue joint should have absolutely no none notta any excess glue?

Aren't you the same person that stated you never use fittings, you pull all the pipes into position?

You have not a word of sympathy for any of these poor homeowners who unknowingly became victimized by a piping system that can literally run into the millions.

You'd think by now you'd realize that plastic water line systems are plagued with repeated failures......class action lawsuits, property damage claims, financial strife to those who have no clue what they've embarked upon because the homeowner is unknowledgeable to the facts of certain products.....the cause and effects that can prove harmful to both life and checkbook.

I'm sorry............sorry my dog's water bowl is getting more activity than your website.......the idle time spending it with me trying to discredit is back to the reason why you are banned from so many websites for your ignorance.


You could learn a lot from GSchreiber, CWS VI (MN), the guy is in the same business as you, doesn't EVER follow your antics and the guy is a think tank. I have a TON of respect for him and his profession and all the members on all the sites enjoy his professionalism. A great asset.

He knows his product and that is why he's a longstanding member on numerous sites like myself, giving to others without reward.

Digging up bones with me will not get you back on those websites you was removed from mainly by the administrators, not me chump.

I'm sure you are just sore because since your intent is mainly to make money off others being here in forums, the loss of 7 websites = loss revenue.


Now back to my cheese puffs you interrrupted me from eating.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

lol

I hear gary typing :p

[Gary Slusser]

Did you take the time to even read my reply?

Do you realize that whenever plastic piping fails ONCE AGAIN you are the first to defend it? You're predictable......and oh let's not forget NSF61....

You'd think by now you'd realize that plastic water line systems are plagued with repeated failures......class action lawsuits, property damage claims, financial strife to those who have no clue what they've embarked upon because the homeowner is unknowledgeable to the facts of certain products.....the cause and effects that can prove harmful to both life and checkbook.

I'm sorry............sorry my dog's water bowl is getting more activity than your website.......the idle time spending it with me trying to discredit is back to the reason why you are banned from so many websites for your ignorance.

You could learn a lot from GSchreiber, CWS VI (MN), the guy is in the same business as you, doesn't EVER follow your antics and the guy is a think tank. I have a TON of respect for him and his profession and all the members on all the sites enjoy his professionalism. A great asset.

He knows his product and that is why he's a longstanding member on numerous sites like myself, giving to others without reward.

Digging up bones with me will not get you back on those websites you was removed from mainly by the administrators, not me chump.

I'm sure you are just sore because since your intent is mainly to make money off others being here in forums, the loss of 7 websites = loss revenue.

Now back to my cheese puffs you interrrupted me from eating.

Yes I read your reply and replied to what you said and as usual, you go off emotionally and get personal but don't debate your position. And yes I commented on your wiping plastic cleaner on cement reply in another thread.

And here you go again... wrong as usual. Schreiber is the Mid-West US sales manager for Purolite (resins, he's there 25+ yrs), he doesn't sell equipment. He is an ex Culligan salesman (20 yrs). He rarely helps anyone troubleshoot their broken equipment or tells them anything other than to buy locally and to get more water tests done, but he knows resins.

Yeah my dinky web site only averages 1200 unique visitors per month. I still use phpBB2 while yours is busted and you went and formed another forum with a different software and it has NO traffic since what, Aug was it? I only sell at least one major piece of equipment every day of the month; that's about 20k per month at my prices. As of tonight I have a $5700+ month already while you eat cheese puffs and put on another 40 lbs and whine.

And since you got me banned from other forums as you now admit because I disagreed with you about your denying copper tubing and pinhole leaks, I have more free time and business continues to boom. So thank you, my wife really appreciates it.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

How did I know you was going to post your quarterly reports for me?

FYI, I don't own nor have any financial stakes in any forum website; just admin and moderate. I left the site you speak of months ago because the owner refused to switch to Vbulletin like I asked for.

Do a check on your member list on your site...along with any other phpbb forum base and you'll see that you have tons of spammers just dying to get on your boards and link out their product.

If it works in your head that you "think" I called the shots on your removal, go ahead. Still can't figure out why you think sites I wasn't even a member at (2 of them) had anything to do with me.

I gotta go,

I got other issues right now, issues about my new $59 microwave NOT cooking my corndogs fast enough. Priorities folks.......priorities.

[Gary Slusser]

How did I know you was going to post your quarterly reports for me?

FYI, I don't own nor have any financial stakes in any forum website; just admin and moderate. I left the site you speak of months ago because the owner refused to switch to Vbulletin like I asked for.

Do a check on your member list on your site...along with any other phpbb forum base and you'll see that you have tons of spammers just dying to get on your boards and link out their product.

If it works in your head that you "think" I called the shots on your removal, go ahead. Still can't figure out why you think sites I wasn't even a member at (2 of them) had anything to do with me.

I gotta go,

I got other issues right now, issues about my new $59 microwave NOT cooking my corndogs fast enough. Priorities folks.......priorities.

Steve, it's all due to your superb smarts.

Along that topic, quarterly is three months, not monthly.

So you don't own and/or operate, you just admin and moderate.... and pretend to be imporant. LOL The fact is that you set up a new forum and there has been not one post by anyone but you (admin).
http://stemdoctor.com/cs/forums/thread/57.aspx

I think you pretend to be a service plumber too but at least you don't call yourself a Master plumber like you used to. It's guys like you that give plumbing a bad rap. Here's a sample of your plumbing and it took you FIVE HOURS!!! You owe those people a refund. Use the Next and Prev buttons to see all of it.
http://tinyurl.com/zrym3

[Dunbar Plumbing]

you would quit bringing up my hooked on phonics education. Shame on you~!

Thanks for putting that filter system picture up, I get a lot of site traffic when you do that. That was a hard job too since the customer had me installing that filter to a tee by the mfg. specs. He called them 4 times throughout the job.....part of the reason it took so long.

He even went as far as having a $500 high powered microscope taking samples of the outgoing water from the filter when I prewashed (mfg. specs) initially to remove debri.

I added some bells and whistles (valves and drains) so he could backwash that system as per required by the mfg.

Since you make me feel so warm and tingly with our ongoing love/hate relationship online,

I added some more pictures of water treatment installations. Please be my hunk of burning love hairy chest online inspector would you? :)

[Gary Slusser]

I'm glad to help. You know, you don't see all the help I've been giving you and if you became a bit better listener and got rid of the attitude, I know you'd pick right up on it.

I see you wiped your joints on that filter install, they look simply marvelous.

[Plumb or Die]

You seem to have a bunch of people dicking you around, and hoping you will just go away and eat all this expense yourself. You're problems are due to an improper install of a perfectly good piping product. I assume the plumbers that came over were hired by your insurance person or your realtor. Get a licenced plumbing contractor over to check this stuff out. A properly worded letter from him describing the improper installation will go a long way in court should you go down that road. And it will certainly get your insurane people or whoever to take notice. Don't take this laying down.
I personally helped out a fellow with a problem with a plumbing contractor that froze and burst a bunch of slab heating pipes. The letter I wrote for him helped out a lot when he sued the plumber for negligence. He had to jackhammer out and replace the whole slab in a 2000 sq/ft rancher he was building. Get the sleezebags!

[PLC]

I too have been receiving information by mail regarding this lawsuit. What I don't know is whether or not my home actually has this defect or how to find out.

I can vouch for the fact that there is a class action lawsuit against Clark County plumbers, IPEX, KITEC, etc. Copies of the suit are posted at "www.plumbingdefect.com", where you can sign up for an inspection by the law firm. At this site there is also information which will allow you to determine whether or not your house has KITEC fittings. Ours apparently does.

We have had a preliminary inspection and accepted an offer by Pulte to replumb the house. We are on the waiting list to get replumbed. It remains to be see whether that was a wise decision, but the alternative of waiting to see if the fittings ruptured is too much of a gamble.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

If you type in the words

PEX
LAWSUITS
MTBE
KITEC

These threads are showing up in all the search engines....pulling discussions from web forums like these and others with all the lawsuits of these products coming to light. That is why this thread is generating new members of those "chiming in" to give info to others of what is going on. :teamwork: :thumbsup:

Back in 2005 I commented on this site about the "train wreck coming"...

The forums I've moderated over the years are showing that this product is making its way into peoples homes in leaps and bounds.

Those who are cheerleaders of these plastic piping systems:


What do you say to the victims of these different brands of PEX that are failing?

Don't talk about copper pinhole stories, talk about the facts......the subject of plastic pipe failures.

It's turning into property damage, insurance rate increases, people losing their homes to this stuff because "it's fast and easy" and you can make more money.

There are so many brands/styles/flavors of PEX that when someone gloats about a certain kind.....how do you expect the average homeowner going to buy a home what to look out for?

PEX LAWSUITS is becoming a popular search engine word phrase these days thanks to the failures associated with the fittings and pipe.

Isn't it true that Europe doesn't use chlorine levels similar to ours in the USA and THAT is the reason for some of the problems tied to this piping?

This thread alone is making some waves in the www so if you are going to defend its quality...

speak up and explain to all these homeowners (victims) why they should eat a hamburger from mcdonalds,

but definitely not a hamburger from wendy's.



http://www.lieffcabraser.com/hydronic-pipes.htm

http://contractormag.com/articles/newsarticle.cfm?newsid=221

http://www.forbestlaw.com/articles/kitec-pipe-defects.html

http://www.kirotv.com/money/1954263/detail.html

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/comsite5/bin/pdinventory.pl?pdlanding=1&referid=2930&purchase_type=ITM&item_id=0286-22861792




In the mind of many, a hamburger is a hamburger and until one makes you sick, you just keep on eating them. < vegetarians need not to reply to this. ;)

[mickeymouse1205]

Okay, need opinions.According to Pulte and the Attorneys, Pulte is offering to replace the fittings and repipe the whole house, can be up to a 2 year waiting list for this mind you. The class action law suit is offering you have your options of 1) a 7800.00 check and get your own contractor and Pulte is no longer liable from there on out or 2) Pulte will put you on their 2 yr (so far) list and they will do the repairs.Here is what concerns me, 1st if you go with Pulte and no damage has been done yet it sure the heck may within the 2 years and what a nightmare that could be 2) almost every NV state plumbing contractor I've contacted said the cost total of repiping, new fittings, re sheet-rocking, paint, some people will need stucco repair etc is over the 7800 the lawsuit is willing to give you.(Apparently the judge ruled the fittings are the defect and the there is no need for any repiping) You also have to remember everyone does not have the same model house, some have 2 baths, 3 baths 4 baths, some have island kitchen with sinks, etc. What a mess. Also in order to recieve any help you need to have someone come over, cut a hole and take a picture of the KITECH in your house. The sticker in the electrical panel is not good enough What would you do, with these options??????

[Gary Slusser]

Personally I feel bad for anyone with water damage etc. from leaking water lines. But getting emotional isn't going to solve anything and usually causes more problems. The fact is that in this thread, the pictures do not show failed tubing/pipe, they show failed fittings; there is nothing wrong with the tubing.

Also, I believe the AL type PEX is not to be used for potable water lines, it is for hydronic heating. Potable water lines do not need/require an oxygen barrier or whatever the barrier is for. So in reality, the plumbers/builders etc. may have specked the wrong material, which caused the corrosion to cause the brass fittings to fail. All of which has nothing to do with the material.

Did you know there are three separate manufacturing processes used to make PEX? They all relate to differences in the finished product, so lumping them together is incorrect.

Another fact is that copper, galvanized, CPVC, PVC etc., including SS, all have problems/disadvantages; there is no perfect potable water line material but... overall, studying actual research rather than listening to gossip shows that you can't beat plastics.

MTBE? That happens to be a gasoline additive, I think you have a typo or are confusing it with something else.

[Rancher]

Also, I believe the AL type PEX is not to be used for potable water lines, it is for hydronic heating. Potable water lines do not need/require an oxygen barrier or whatever the barrier is for. Gary, Soooo... this begs the question, when I plumb my next slab with PEX-AL-PEX what do I use for connectors? And bear in mind that my last slab was plumbed with PB, with no problems after 12 years.

Rancher

[geniescience]

permit me to ask whether this thing in Nevada is about PEX pipe or Pex-AL-Pex pipe.

Although i might be able to answer this myself, with enough searching, i'm posting my query here.

david

[Rancher]

I believe it's about the connectors failing, I haven't seen the reason why, Gary is guessing corrision due to dis-similar metals.

Rancher

[Phil H2]

The website for the lawsuit claims dezincification is the cause of the fitting failure. It seems like a lab could easily determine the brass alloy used in the suspect fittings and tell if it is prone to dezincification. I wonder if the contact with copper pipe accelerates dezincification. By the way, dezincifation happens in brass alloys with a high zinc content and a low copper content. The zinc leaches from the alloy leaving a weak copper skeleton.

As far as MTBE, there are claims that some PEX has problems leaching MTBE and TBA which are by-products of the manufacturing process.

[Gary Slusser]

Nah Rancher, actually I've read every word in all the posts in this entire thread, so no guessing on my part. :)

It is Pex-AL-Pex used to plumb the house (Post #23 ON PAGE 2). The fittings are brass insert x threaded. The failure is supposed to be dissimilar metals corrosion between the aluminium and brass but, there may be a misformulation of the brass (too much zinc someone said), causing the insert end of the fitting to break off the rest of the fitting.

IMO the break might be due to stress on the tubing connection and/or no support of the tubing. IOWs the break may not have happened as soon if ever as it did had only corrosion been involved; now I'm guessing.

Actually, IIRC, the class action law suit lawyers guesstimate 25000 or 30000 to 50000 houses involved (read B I G M O N E Y).

Oh, I've also read most of everything on their site concerning this. They have the pictures of the corrosion in cut-away plumbing.

[Gary Slusser]

Phil, we were posting at the same time.

Yes, there are many "claims" and most are eventally proven untrue but never correctable; like all gossip. IMO most unfounded claims are agenda driven by those with a monetary interest in the use of copper.

[Gary Slusser]

I see that yesterday Mickey and I were posting at the same time. I missed this until now.

ATTENTION rugged: (Apparently the judge ruled the fittings are the defect and the there is no need for any repiping).

Rancher, if your PB has lasted this long in a slab, it probably won't be leaking any time soon. If it does leak, I'd use homerun PE or PEX to replace it with, and I probably would put it in conduit like larger ID PE or sch 40 PVC for easy replacement if needed. Personally I think all slabs should have been plumbed that way from day one and given a blueprint of ther slab plumbing (in an ideal world)...

Just make sure you and/or the plumber strictly follow the instructions for storage, handling, installation and insure the fittings are done right while paying attention to the water quality that is going to be run through it meets the manufacturers' min/max guidelines.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

An ideal world that mickey's situation never existed to begin with.

An ideal world that this house doesn't have holes galore to see the piping in his walls

An ideal world that the mfg of this piping SHOULD of tested their materials before gloating its promise of everything great and now the thousands of people are suffering from that choice.

In your ideal world gary you would probably tell mickey to go ahead and pull those pipes into position, stretching them to use a new fitting to connect two or three pipes back together.

Another bad scenario grows from that as well. The proper workmanship you mention would not include stretching those pipes to meet each other to say lets replace a tee. Pulling that pipe tighter will create the issue of thermal expansion if there is no "give" to the pipe and now when hot water goes through the piping, it's pulling on that new connection.

SO,

The correct application for Mickey's dilemma would be to use 4 connections, not 1 like before at a tee intersection of a line. 3 couplings and 1 tee so that the piping is not strained or pulled together to make that next connection.


Explain to me and the internet world gary how this is acceptable for someone who has a house with this piping system to go after 4 connections to 1 if they want it done right. Every time you add more connections to any piping system, the cost and the possibility of leaks grows.


Here's what the public is not aware of regarding these systems:

Certain PEX mfg. are already out of business.....quit making their product and even though it was installed...there is no way to sue them if and when it fails. < How would you like to be waiting for that ticking time bomb to go off...and not know of the situation?

"Other" companies from a profit endeavor are trying to make products (crimp rings for example) to make up for what this once been company produced.

System failures have been proven in hydronic systems (see link above)

Makes no sense how the plastic industry passes off a product before thoroughly tested. OTHERWISE THESE LIABILITY ISSUES WOULDN"T EXIST

I'm going to try to get an association of condo owners to join this thread who had a plumber in my area plumb their units with QEST PEX piping.

Static pressure to the unit is 75 pounds, large thermal expansion tank at the meter group. All piping was installed per say code.

Riddled with leaks, breaks are common monthly...the product is tearing open like it is ripping open longways in 1"-4" openings. It happens randomly throughout the home and the mfg. of the product AND the state plumbing committee who approved this garbage hasn't identified it's problem source.

In the meantime the condo owners are suffering with the ongoing charges mounted by the plumbers,

no class action lawsuit or "BIG MONEY" as gary wants you to think is motive even exists at this point,

The homeowners, like some of you have joined and tons of you who have viewed this thread now and in the future are in a similar situation.

It all equates to cost savings the builder/plumber assumed was in the best interest of all......and it wasn't.

There are "those" who will try to discredit any of the bad things plastic water line systems produce.....that is why there is opposition to the reality of why this thread exists. That's fine. The "truth" is that there are tons of innocent victims that have issues with their plumbing system thanks to corporate decisions all the way down to the supplier then the plumber who installed this piping system that is KILLING the reputation of this so called good product.

PB, BLUE MAX, PEX < All plastic piping systems...now they are all combined with legal issues stemming from its use.

And these "victims" shouldn't have emotion? pfffft! Tell that to the single mother that has the possibility of losing her condo because the condo association WON'T ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY for the defective product,


and she's shelling constant money out periodically to fix repairs not only to the piping itself, but the walls, wood, paint, drywall, wallpaper, carpet, or anything else that when the piping busts, it does damage.


These victims have a voice in their situation....life interrupted is exactly what it is.


To mickey,

Unfortunately it sounds like there was a decision reached in the court system that didn't have allowances for larger homes and costs incurred. I would NOT go with the thinking of leaving the pipe in. All of those connections will be a sight to see along with the possibility of more leaks at any connection.

Since major demolition would be needed to replace your system, take the shortcut ( a risk you have to take....and knowing what flavor of PEX isn't failing right now ) and repipe the house with minimal damage to structure.


Try to keep it under the confines of the settlement amount, THEN SELL THE BUILDING.

Get as far away from the responsibility of that piping system before it fails. Otherwise the "twice bitten" bug is coming to get you.....and you have only to blame yourself for stalling.

Keep up the good work gary, chain posting and trying to dispute the reality of these failed systems keeps this subject matter in top view and priority. I'm all for it and keep up the good work.

I'm sure there is a consensus can be drawn that my intentions in these subject matters are of the concern that people/homeowners are getting the short end of the stick in these situations.....and I'm all for protecting them with getting them the info they need to make INFORMED decisions before buying a property that unknowingly might have one of these failing systems.

There's a value to that information...that's why I'm doing the deed to help. Thank you too gary. It wouldn't be fun without ya. I look forward to your rebuttal! :hugs: :kisses: :holdshands:

[Gary Slusser]

rugged, you say "PB, BLUE MAX, PEX < All plastic piping systems...now they are all combined with legal issues stemming from its use.".

I agree, you're right. And I agree that many people are suffering huge financial and emotional losses due to leaking water lines.

What I disagree with and IMO you are wrong in, is your implying/inferring that all plastic everywhere is bad and shouldn't be used by anyone at anytime.

Doing that is like saying vehicles should be banned because of the litterally million plus people per year, year after year for the last 50 plus years, that suffer life changing serious injuries and their expense.

You will not admit to any problems with copper that is causing large numbers of people the same expensive damages and emotional time bomb life changing distress as those with plastic water lines.

They have the same holes in the wall and until the copper is torn out and replaced, more leaks to look forward to, no matter if it's a retired couple on $400/month SS in an apartment or a single mother with four kids in her divorce settlement 4 bedroom slum or $500K house/condo she worked 24 hrs. a day over the last 20 years for.

It's all terrible, period. Yet we all need affordable water lines in our houses. There is no even close to perfect defect free water line material; or accident free vehicle. So all that proves is that life is a risk and living is risky, but it still beats the only alternative.

The truth is that the vast majority of residential water lines never leak before they are torn out of the building because of low flow or during a remodel etc. and most of us never have a vehicular accident with any more than minor injuries.

I suggest we all admit it, evaluate the causes of both leaking water lines in houses/buildings and of vehicular accidents and prevent as many as possible and move on making everyone's lives better. All that depends on accurate information and gossip prevents accuracy and gets many going in the wrong direction which simply adds to the problems they are trying to solve.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Gary,

Plastic piping is here to stay, I won't change that and no one will. There "are" good plastic piping systems out there with some consideration following their track records of error-free operation.

My stance on this whole subject matter refers to the defense of products that need a word of caution before you proceed.

I bet the bank and I'll win on this next statement; Affordable piping in the minds of people would constitute that with the problems associated with failing piping systems, these people who are victimized by their situation....they would of paid double for the piping if they knew the train wreck that was coming.


Even though I'm young(er) and still have lots and lots to learn in this profession, I come from the teachings of old school plumbing to express caution when the next fast and furious item comes into my hands to use.

I guess that premace follows the baseline that I'm living in an area that years and years from now........when product fails like we all know that anything man-made does,

I did what was in my best interest for those I worked for and myself to protect them from any product that indirectly causes harm/property damage.

Example,

I have installed nearly 200 B&K anti-siphon hose bibbs in my area over the last 3 years. I've only had 8 callbacks of the handles snapping. It's not my fault. It's a design flaw in the handle that cracks by exposure to UV rays and the fact that if the stem loses grease and gains friction, the handle is the first to go.

I feel bad about it even though Mueller supplies the customer with a free handle @ no charge to them. It's the fact the customer made a informed decision to trust me to put the best product available at the time....and now that I've been getting these returning calls, I'm thinking that maybe it wasn't the best product.

If only B&K would make an aluminum handle....I would buy them in bulk, send them to every customer I installed that for and go with the proactive approach to protect their interests and my reputation.

Thing is, they don't make it. Wouldn't care if it cost me $500 for a box of handles.....I'm putting the consideration out there that I'm giving the customer something that will fix the problem at no cost to them.

Every time this consideration of the repeated failures of plastic piping comes into play, you bring up copper corrosion/pinholing issues.


I never stated that copper is the best choice for all areas. When copper fails 95% of the time, it's regional, it's normally always tied to either an electrical issue or ph levels found in water. Drive a car in wet and snowy weather where salt is used to de-ice and you'll have corrosion on the fenders of your car.

If copper was extremely easy to install......it would be riddled with the same problems some of the plastic piping systems have.

My point solely in being vocal in this matter of new piping systems is to

review case histories of similar products
follow the patterns of product failures and what causes them
determine if its use is dictated solely by economics (cheap)
determine if its use is faultered solely by workmanship (inexperienced installers because of its simplicity)
Follow patterns of companies "bandwagoning" and joining the efforts to make a product and short term shut down....to avoid liability.


No man-made product is perfect for ALL applications....it never will be.

Look at toilets.....look at the reliability standards those follow. There are some on that map that consistently flunk on the chart due to poor performance.


You know why they are still buying those low-performers? Economics of the individual or simply not being aware of what they purchased......and they find out the hard way later.

I can honestly state for the record that I DO NOT know all the flavors of plastic piping out there. I can gauge by certain forums I belong to that their are preferable ones that are holding up......but I cannot for the life of me determine the "down the road" presence of reliability. It's too damn new.

Why aren't this forums riddled with (*I have a house that was plumbed with PEX 34 years ago and I have a question about.....*)

All I get in the forums are (*I have a house that has PB or BlueMax and I want to know if this system needs to be replaced, can you.....*)

I can't be sold on any product in the profession of plumbing regarding plastic piping until the lawsuits and continuing problems with these systems.....minimize.

[Gary Slusser]

Ok, I agree that people need to look where they'll land before leaping. And most do not do that because they just "love the house" and must have it N O W or, they pinch every penny and go solely on price. And many get taken and burned BUT, there's nothing like the school of hard knocks to teach unforgettable lessons.

The problem today is that most of those folks refuse to take any responsibility for THEIR decisions that got'em burned; it's always someone else's fault.

I can appreciate you wanting to replace faucet handles before they break because you think maybe they aren't as good as you told people they were. I've been there a few times myself. And I went back to all of those customers and informed them of what I had learned. I was well recieved, so maybe you should get a case of handles and do it; write it off as advertising expense. Or, tell them to remove the handle and keep it inside until they need it and find some key chain for them to use so they don't misplace the handle.

[Downhome]

I am a layperson who's been sent the class action information by a lawfirm in Nevada re Kitec plumbing.
My electrical box has a sticker that says I have Aquapex by Wirsbo. My homeowners manual says the same thing.
The law firm says they sent the letter to anyone who they had reason to believe might have Kitec plumbing. They say the only way to verify what I have is to have an inspection - the least invasive way by having a plumber poke a pencil eraser size hole under the kitchen sink and insert a camera to take a picture of the fittings.
I asked whether the brand of fittings used could be mixed throughout the house and the lawyer said no, only the fitting appropriate to the brand of tubing could be used.
So here is my question
Most of the tubes are run through our attic and dropped through the walls to the bathrooms and kitchen. If only Kitec fittings can be used with Kitec tubing and Aquapex fittings with Aquapex tubing, why can't someone just go into the attic and look at the type of tubing used to determine what type of fitting we have??? Why does there have to be any cutting through the drywall at all???
I appreciate any insight the pros on this site can give.

[Rancher]

I asked whether the brand of fittings used could be mixed throughout the house and the lawyer said no, only the fitting appropriate to the brand of tubing could be used. This doesn't sound correct, PEX is PEX... correct?

Rancher

[Plumb or Die]

PEX and Kitec are different. Kitec (PEX/AL/PEX) fittings that I've installed are similar to PEX fittings, but where PEX fittings are just barbed, the Kitec ones have two rubber O-rings seated in the barbs. But hey, I'm in Canada, you guys might have different stuff down there.
Also, I remember when polybutylene started crapping out and the lawsuits started, that was Nevada too. What's up with that?

[Rancher]

PEX and Kitec are different. Kitec (PEX/AL/PEX) fittings that I've installed are similar to PEX fittings, I thought all the PEX pipe suppliers supplied both kinds... I know Wirsbo also makes a PEX/AL/PEX pipe...

And I would assume you use different connectors for each, but does that mean I can't use a Kitec connector on a Wirsbo pipe and visa versa?

Rancher

[Gary Slusser]

In reply to the camera inspection post... lawyers doing class action law suits need all the complainants they can get; hence the shotgun approach letter. They also need proof, hence the on site inspection, that each household/person is actually able to be involved in the law suit. The more there are the larger the problem and larger the settlement, if any. And many class action lawyers and/or their staff do not know or understand everything about the products or processes etc. they file law suits against, or gather info on and spread incorrect info in some cases.

To be fair to class action lawyers, they do all the leg work, and educating themselves about the products etc. and court time all at their expense and it can take many years to reach a decision and then usually there are appeals and they recover all their expenses and hopefully make a profit out of the settlement, if any. That's why they get the lions share of any settlement AND since they win all suits, it's why they charge so much for their services. IOWs they gamble their money, their reputation and future.

I do not know for sure but I believe most brands of PEX have their own line of fittings (along with some universal type compression fittings) because the ID of the pipe can vary from one brand to another because all PEX is CTS (copper tubing size) meaning only the OD is maintained and the ID varies. Unlike IPS (iron pipe size) that maintains the ID and the OD varies.

For potable water lines CTS types are PB, PE, PEX, CPVC, copper and IPS is PE and PVC. PE is made in both but for water lines it's IPS while softeners, filters etc. use CTS for drain and brine lines although IPS can be used for drain lines also.

And then there are the different types of fittings. Some PEX is expanded, the fitting is installed and the tubing shrinks onto the fitting and crimped, or another insert type has a compression nut. I believe at least one manufacturer refuses to sell their PEX to anyone that has not completed their training; is it WIRSBO?

And there are three types of PEX based on how it is manufactured. So thinking that all PEX is the same is like calling all copper copper, or all plastic plastic, without getting into the differences between M, L and K or PVC, CPVC PE, PB etc. and any of the various specs/applications and/or types...

[messboy]

gary, you say there three types of pex based on how they're manufactured. can you please explain. Also,can you recommend a brand or two with a great track record{pipe and fittings}. thank you in advance

[jadnashua]

Not to be a kill-joy, but a little search using google will get you the info you request in far more detail than can be posted here. Then come back with a question. Some of the choices plumbers make in choosing is which brand their local supplier carries, and has little to do with the differences between the types.

[Gary Slusser]

Maybe I should have said there are three ways to manufacture PEX... they are somewhat different and may give one type an edge over the others. I think they PEX-a, b and c but could be wrong. A search will find the info.

I've used some QEST PEX but I don't know one brands' difference from another.

[Downhome]

So here is my question - can anyone answer this for me?

Most of the tubes are run through our attic and dropped through the walls to the bathrooms and kitchen. If only Kitec fittings can be used with Kitec tubing and Aquapex fittings with Aquapex tubing, why can't someone just go into the attic and look at the type of tubing used to determine what type of fitting we have??? Why does there have to be any cutting through the drywall at all???
I appreciate any insight the pros on this site can give.
01-19-2007 07:17 AM

[master plumber mark]

That is why I still love copper .


I do use the WIRSBO pex only..with the heavy duty expansion rings...

but now they are even finding ways to mess up that system
with shitty wimpy crimp rings instead of the expansion couplings....


everyone is trying to make things easier and cheaper to use
without too much concern what might hapen down the road
and no one is really watching these pipe compnaies too closely



I might be wrong,
but I still feel that in about another 10 years from now


THEIR IS GOING TO BE BLOODY HELL TO PAY for everyone

involved in some of these low end pexes...........

just have an decent 2 millioin dollar umbrella policy on your company

so when you get named along with the builders
and the bankrupt pex companies in all the many lawsuits,

at least your defence will be for free


and I am trying to stick to only one brand that I feel is best

[Gary Slusser]

downhome... looking at the car/PU/SUV doesn't tell you what engine is in it and looking at your tubing isn't going to tell you the type or brand of fittings used.

[f.2]

Homeowners sue installers, who blame manufacturer for faulty fixtures (http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2007/Feb-09-Fri-2007/business/12368182.html)


Feb. 09, 2007
Copyright © Las Vegas Review-Journal

Lawsuits flow over plumbing

Homeowners sue installers, who blame manufacturer for faulty fixtures

By HUBBLE SMITH
REVIEW-JOURNAL

A-Bear plumbers Carlos Jerez, left, and Oscar Sanzores help replace Kitec pipes and fittings in this Henderson house on Forest City Drive.
Photos by Gary Thompson.

About 35,000 to 50,000 homes in the Las Vegas Valley have Kitec brass fixtures. A class action lawsuit claims the fixtures are faulty.

A construction defect lawsuit that started last year with about 1,000 homes in Sun City MacDonald Ranch has been expanded to include potentially 35,000 to 50,000 homes throughout the Las Vegas Valley, an attorney for some of the homeowners said.

Randall Jones of Harrison Kemp Jones law firm said the class action lawsuit includes all owners of homes in Clark County with Kitec brass plumbing fittings. Defendants named in the lawsuit are Kitec maker IPEX, Classic Plumbing, Sharp Plumbing and Cox & Sons Plumbing.

Extensive corrosion and crystallization caused by chemical reaction occurs where Kitec is coupled with polyurethene-based tubing, resulting in plumbing problems such as leaks, reduced water flow and breaks, the lawsuit alleges.

"We have metallurgists who opined that, based on testing of these brass fittings, they will all fail," Jones said. Major home builders that used Kitec include KB Home, Pulte, Richmond American, Signature, Woodside and John Lang, he said.

Steve Hawley, owner of Classic Plumbing, said the Kitec problem cost him his business and he's pursuing legal action against IPEX, the Canadian-based manufacturer of Kitec.

"I'm basically out of business," he said. "I have no employees. I'm the only employee now just to handle the lawsuit. Here I had one of the largest residential plumbing companies in the valley for 25 years and had to shut it down."

Hawley said he put Kitec fittings in about 5,000 homes in the valley, many of them for Richmond American. When the fittings started having problems, he called Kitec and company officials said it was "no big deal." They paid for product and labor to repair a few homes and then "pulled up stakes" in Colorado and moved to Canada, he said.

"I was out of pocket $300,000 taking care of these people, so I couldn't come out and take care of the poor homeowners," Hawley said. "I told them it's not a workmanship problem, it's the product. So I sued Kitec."

Cox & Sons Plumbing declined comment. Sharp Plumbing failed to return phone calls.

Developer Del Webb started using Kitec fittings after other plumbing problems surfaced in Sun City Summerlin, attorney Francis Lynch of Lynch Hopper Salzano, representing Sun City MacDonald Ranch homeowners, told the Review-Journal last year.

He said the MacDonald Ranch case is continuing and a hearing is scheduled in March. Judge Nancy Saitta, who was previously handling the case, was elected to the Nevada Supreme Court. The new judge, Timothy Williams, certified the class action lawsuit.

Pulte Homes, Del Webb's parent company, recently sent letters to residents of its master-planned Anthem community in Henderson, offering to pay homeowners $7,800 to make necessary repairs, which could require rerouting plumbing overhead through walls and attics.

Nevada Revised Statutes Chapter 40 was changed a few years ago to rein in construction-defect lawsuits, giving builders the right to repair or compensate home owners before they go to litigation.

"In this instance, we want to compensate homeowners to get repairs done on their homes so they can go on with their lives and enjoy their homes and not be caught up in a lawsuit for five years with no promise of compensation," Pulte spokeswoman Sasha Jackowich said.

Pulte "hasn't offered a dime" to homeowners in Sun City MacDonald Ranch, Lynch said, even though the same Kitec material was used in those homes and the builder's own experts said the plumbing has to be replaced.

Favil West, president of Sun City Anthem Homeowners Association, said Kitec fittings may have been installed in as many as 3,000 homes there.

"The board had, up until last week, declined to become involved in this matter as clearly it is a homeowner-developer issue," West wrote in the Anthem Compendium. "At the request of literally hundreds of our residents, the board directed me to investigate and report. The board further directed that a legal opinion be obtained with respect to the limits of participation of the board without exposing the association to any liability."

Sun City Anthem resident Tony Bell said most of the people he's talked to are taking the money and forgoing the lawsuit. He was told it would take about 45 days to receive the check.

"A lot of them are having the work done before they get the money," he said. "I'm taking the $7,800 rather than wait five years in the lawsuit and get a check for $36. You've got to take the money out of your pocket and fix it and you might not get enough money to fix it."

Bell said he signed a release from future claims against Pulte over the Kitec fittings, though it does not exclude other coverage under Pulte's home warranty. It gives Pulte the right to sue Kitec and recover losses, he said.

Chuck Davis, another Sun City Anthem resident, said he signed the release with Del Webb and opted out of the class action lawsuit. "I don't do anything for attorneys," he said.

Davis said the $7,800 repair cost is based on the largest home in the Anthem community and there's a "flock" of residents who think they can make money by having the work done for less.

West said board members met with the class action lawyers in December and then met with their own attorney. Sun City residents discussed the issue with lawyers from both Pulte and Harrison Kemp Jones at a January board meeting. He said most of the board members have requested an inspection.

Kristi Lonsinger said she's happy with her plumbing repairs, but complained that the city of Henderson raised its inspection fee from $91 to $285. Normally, city officials would inspect the work once when it's completed, but now they make three or four inspections, she said.

"They no longer care about the final cosmetic look. The city said they want to make sure our homes are put back together the way they should be," Lonsinger said in an e-mail to neighbors.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Steve Hawley, owner of Classic Plumbing, said the Kitec problem cost him his business and he's pursuing legal action against IPEX, the Canadian-based manufacturer of Kitec.
"I'm basically out of business," he said. "I have no employees. I'm the only employee now just to handle the lawsuit. Here I had one of the largest residential plumbing companies in the valley for 25 years and had to shut it down."
Hawley said he put Kitec fittings in about 5,000 homes in the valley, many of them for Richmond American. When the fittings started having problems, he called Kitec and company officials said it was "no big deal." They paid for product and labor to repair a few homes and then "pulled up stakes" in Colorado and moved to Canada, he said.


http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2007/Feb-09-Fri-2007/photos/kitec.jpg


wow,

a failed brass connection, fancy that.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/DUNBAR/ahhh.gif


"Oh but it's fast and easy, stuff is going to take over the world because Europe been using it for years without failure"




About 35,000 to 50,000 homes in the Las Vegas Valley have Kitec brass fixtures. A class action lawsuit claims the fixtures are faulty.





Thanks for the latest documented evidence.

[master plumber mark]

Have a good business, do over 5,000 homes

be rolling in good money and service work....

and have it all taken away from you, or you have to

go bankrupt --restart your bsiness under another name.
and go underground just to save your assets.....


I wonder how it all shakes out with his insurance????

I would think it would be their problem to deal with....not his.

No Umbreall Policy???

wouldent it be their problem to insure this plumber????


I would like to hear more about this mess....


sounds like the dip tube fiasco of the mid 90s to me...

[Gary Slusser]

Had he used plastic fittings, he wouldn't have the problem...:D

[Rancher]

Wait a minute....

"Extensive corrosion and crystallization caused by chemical reaction occurs where Kitec is coupled with polyurethene-based tubing, resulting in plumbing problems such as leaks, reduced water flow and breaks, the lawsuit alleges."

Huh? Polyurethene-based tubing... everbody know you can't mix polyethylene and polyurethene products.

Oh and where in this picture is the polyurethene.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2007/Feb-09-Fri-2007/photos/kitec.jpg

Rancher

[serge]

Living in the Pacific NW, I had heard about the supposed PEX issue with the Blueberry development. However, even in the article, they admit that the systems were basically hickedly-piggeldy mix of different pipes connections, water heaters etc.

In Vancouver BC, thousands of condos there have PEX pipe. I've heard about the leaky condo issue there, but that was due to siding (DryVit) issues and not PEX. Many of those condos have been around for >10-15 years and not one peep about the PEX.

And I'm not really sure what the issue is in the Las Vegas houses is, but from reading the posts (and especially Gary's posts) it seems to be the fittings and using the PEX-al-PEX for potable water.

It'll be interesting to see how this all turns out, especially since I have PEX in some areas in my house. Luckily, most of it is accessible....

[serge]

"Due to the unique quality of water in the area, chemical reactions may occur that cause these brass fittings to clog over time. In recent months, some homeowners in Sun City Anthem have reported decreased water flow in their homes, believed to have resulted from corrosion of Kitec brass fittings. To date, corrosion of Kitec fittings has not been found to have caused leaks or any problems other than reduced water flow in any homes in Sun City Anthem."


http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:W5fwJPggN84J:www.anthemwebs.com/Documents/anthem_compendium061223.htm+kitec+lawsuit&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=15&gl=us

[Gary Slusser]

The other day when Rancher posted the picture, I was going to say that I suspect the water quality may be responsible rather than the fittings. I suspected the water when I first saw the pictures on the class action lawsuit web site. That is because of what I see inside the fittings and tubing. It's just too much 'corrosion' (actually material) to come from the aluminium/brass contact corrosion. Someone should do an analysis on it, possibly it's caused by high velocity and erosion corrosion that caused the leaking fittings.

Another thing I thought about... I wonder how tight the compression nuts were tightened, in those instances where the fittings leaked/broke, and if they weren't overtightened (to prevent leaks) and if they weren't stressed. I also wonder if that were done if it might cause the aluminum to deform enough to touch the brass and cause corrosion. Since I don't know the construction of the fittings or how they go together, my theory may not be possible.

And isn't it strange that no leaks are present in the case discussed in the linked web site, just loss of pressure/low flow complaints?

[Phil H2]

My guess is the fittings are made from poor quality free-machining brass that is rich in zinc, coupled with a thin spot located in a turbulent area. The fitting was thus subject to rapid dezincification and being in contact with the copper water pipe doesn't help.

The aluminum is not in contact with water, so any contact between the Aluminum and brass wouldn't have an electrolyte to accelerate the corrosion.

[Gary Slusser]

Then it must be a bad batch of fittings, all used in only one location in NV, which sounds highly unlikely to me but it's possible.

[mrsocks]

I am hearing that this whole situation is because of the extremely hard water in that area and other components are failing as well: Taco Pumps, fixtures, etc.. anything with brass in them.

Also supposedly Zurn was one of the pipe suppliers and they are running into the same lawsuits.

Has anyone gotten any updated info or more reports of this happening to anywhere outside of this NV area?

Thanks.

[Son of Thunder]

My home's on the market here in the Vegas Valley, and all indications are that we have Kitec plumbing. Our house was built 4 years ago. Our builder is one of those listed in the class action lawsuit cited in this thread. I've seen comments from those who believe this leakage/blockage problem may be due to the extremely hard water here in Southern Nevada.

Is there any information on whether this corrosion is mitigated or eliminated by softened water? Any opinions here?

Our water has been softened from the day we bought the house new from the builder. There are just a couple of lines (cold line to kitchen sink, fridge, and outdoors) where the water isn't softened.

We found out about this issue earlier this week, and have found this thread very informative. Thanks in advance for any comments.

[suecpdx]

YES!
There is a very large class action lawsuit occurring in Las Vegas, NV right now. Any repairs to plumbing and any houses built in 2002-2003 are involved in this lawsuit. The pipes that were installed during a repair or during initial construction are faulty. Customers have a choice: pay $$$$ to have the plumbing repaired now before pipes break and cause damage or wait until the courts decide when and how much you will receive to make repairs. Not a good situation!

[GeorgeA@Repipenow.com]

Okay, here is the straight dope. I am a plumbing contractor in the Southern California area and have been in the Plumbing industry of over 40 - years. The name of my company is MasterServ and my website is www.repipenow.com. We specialize in copper repiping in Southern California. Over the last several years there has been a problem with Kitec piping in the Las Vegas area. What has occured is that the water conditions in the area react adversly with the type of brass fittings that were used in the construction of appoximately 50,000 - homes in the area. What has been found out is that if the brass has too high of a percentage of zinc in it, it starts to decompose and wear out; causing leaks. The problem that most homeowners are experiencing is that the plumbing contractors in the area are not familar with the repiping industry and are just now coming up to speed as to how to handle this problem. I have seen some of the postings in this forum and most people are just not familar with this type of industry as it is a specialty that started in Southern California and does not ocurr much in other parts of the country. The only solution is to replace the Kitec with PEX or Copper, there is no other solution as the Kitec will just continue to fail. If anyone wants more information, please contract me personally at my office at (800) 806-7374 or (818) 408-4100.

Sincerely,
George Anderson
President
MasterServ, Inc.

[Rancher]

What's the difference between Kitec and PEX?

Rancher

[master plumber mark]

If it was not already known,
or If I have already posted this... sorry

the Zurn brand of PEX
now has a class action lawsuit against it......

something to do with the crimp fittings comming agapt....

Zurn is sold at LOWES, and some supply houses....and I guess it is jsut not holding up well


the only type of pex that I trust is WIRSBO with the
plastic expansion clamp rings..... it appers to be about
the absolute best on the market.


Rancher.....Ki-tech is considered pex, but it has an allinimum inner core....
between an outer and innner pex cover.... I have used a little of it,
and it bends something like soft copper would and stays as you bend it...

I dont like it...at all..


The Wirsbo and other pexes are some sort of cross linked polymer
just solid plastic pipe....

goto thier web site if you want the chemical breakdown

[GrumpyPlumber]

the only type of pex that I trust is WIRSBO with the
plastic expansion clamp rings..... it appers to be about
the absolute best on the market.


I've used it extensively on baseboard heat working for other shops, I agree.
Given a choice of nothing or PEX, I'd take Wirsbo.

[toddskoglund]

I recently just bought my first house a little over a month ago. One of my water pipes blew and flooded the house while we were asleep. The home warranty company sent out a couple plumbers to fix the problem, but both say that this Kitec plumbing has been recalled and is not repairable. They state that the whole house needs to be repiped.

Now the home warranty will not cover the cost of repiping the home.....but they also won't approve the repair of this pipe due to the manufacturers recall. They say it has to come out of pocket!!! I also spoke to the homeowner's insurance and they will cover all the damages from the water to the rest of the house.

So what can I do? Is there a class action lawsuit against the manufacturer? The home warranty company stated that alot of people have filed lawsuits against this manufacturer, but they won't give me any details. I'd really appreciate some direction towards a solution.
There is a claas action lawsuit seeking to recover damages from defective piping.

[toddskoglund]

My name is Todd Skoglund and I represent a class of individuals seeking to recover damges for failures or bursts in their IPEX hydronic heating tubing in their homes. The tubing at question was installed and/or manufactured between 1999 and 2003. If you have any questions regarding the action filed against IPEX please email me at todd@casey-skoglund.com. SIncerely, Todd K. Skoglund

[jimbo]

For george at repipe, thank you for your input. Your company is very well known thanks to the advertisements for Bill Handel's Persian Palace, on KFI.

We appreciate your in-depth input on this kitec situation. You can see this thread is about to set a world record for # of posts!

[LVDon]

Am new to this site. Live in Vegas and have recently learned that our home has Kitec fittings. Having the house re-piped and have joined the litigation. I would like to establish the date in which the fitting failures were initially documented. Can anyone provide that info or tell me where to look? Would appreciate your sending me a private message along with responding to this site.

Thanks.

[rich1534]

Hello all,
I have read this thread, and being a retired pipefitter with 37 years under my belt (not a plumber). When I bought my house on North Padre Island, TX., Dec. of 2003, it was about 40% done. As being an old fitter, the first thing I saw was that dam Red & Blue pipe. At the time I couldn't find anything bad about it. I personaly em just a copper man when it comes to water pipes. In my house I have the allinimum core between the inner and outer pex cover. Has there been a problem with THIS pipe in your area?

Thanks for your replys ----------Rich


PS: Keep up the good work

[wet!]

I have just had a failure of the brass nut on a Zurn pipe fitting. I will join the class action suit. This whole problem was avoidable. There is nothing wrong with the plastic. It is just that Zurn have chosen to make the fitting out of substandard material and above all tap the thread too fast.

Here is my story. This is the letter I sen to Zurn, and it contains a copy of the letter I sent to Todd Snodgrass's firm.

This is what I sent to Zurn. It has the correct link to the damage pictures.

This is the link: - http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/3975792#231080554


Dear Mr Sauer,
I sending a copy of the letter I have sent to the lead attorney in the class action suit about your pex plumbing fittings. My property suffered damage last night as a result of the failure of Zurn half inch brass FPT x Barb female adapter.
Fortunately I was home at the time, otherwise property damage would have been in the tens of thousands of dollars. As stated in my letter this failure is a new low benchmark for me in the current race to the bottom among the world's manufacturers. These fittings are concealed, and the potential for significant harm and property damage enormous. Judging by the fact that the fault rate of the fittings I examined in Bemidji today was 100%, I suspect you will end up causing more property damage than the natural disasters of recent years, including hurricane Katrina.
I own two lovely vintage John Deere tractors here at Walberwick House Benedict. The model A is 60 years old. The fittings are beautifully machined, by fine American craftsmen and machinists. John Deere have always had a contract with the farmer. On the rare occasions in their long history when they have produced substandard product, they have admitted it, bought them back and made restitution. Now farm machinery is predominantly green in North America and Europe. And I'll tell you another thing, I can go to the John Deere dealer and buy new parts for my 60 and 50 year old tractors. More often than not the parts are in stock, and if not they are there the next day.
What you need to do, is admit the problem. Don't deny it, That is useless, the problem is blatantly obvious. In fact so obvious the case my well be ripe for summary judgment against you. You need to cut this misery short. Get a well made product in the hands of customers to replace the defective parts. And another thing, lets have them made by good American machine shops. You don't state the country of origin, but I would bet it's China, and I very much doubt America. For Heaven,s sake spare American families the agony of severe water damage to their homes. Get a beautifully machined product in the hands of your customers, and a big ad campaign to make consumers aware of the problem and the solution. If you do that you may yet get to become the worlds best manufacturer of plumbing fittings. At the moment you have to be the bottom of the heap. Here is the letter I sent to Mr Raiter which defines the problem.

Dear Mr Raiter,
I understand that you are the lead attorney, in the class action lawsuit against Zurn for failure of their PEX plastic plumbing system. Denise and Terry Cox are the plaintiffs.
We have a beautiful lake home on Benedict Lake Minnesota. It was extensively remodeled Between January and April of 2006.
Last night at 11.00 PM I went into the main level bathroom. There was water coming through the ceiling, at a fast rate. I shut off the water. I ascertained that the leak was coming from the wall space between the shower and the tub bath, by taking off the inspection cover on the tub. My builder Mr. Stuart Wick of Guthrie came first thing this morning. We had to cut out tile from the shower. We ascertained that there was a large jet of water coming out of the side of the brass fitting connecting the hot water to the shower control. Now I'm a retired MD but I have a large workshop and do a lot of machine work and welding. I have never heard of, nor seen a half inch brass fitting fail in this way. It appeared to me and Mr. Wick and I that it was a defect of manufacture in the thread tapping.
We went to Lindy's plumbing of Benedict who had supplied the part to get a replacement, but they did no have any. Their Master plumber Mr Tim Johnson, did tell us that they had recently replaced one of these fittings in a local home that had failed in the same way, and done over $80,000 in damages. It thought this was unlikely coincidence. I found out beyond a doubt that Zurn was the manufacturer of my defective brass connector.
I then went on the Internet and found out about the class action suit.
I went to Bemidji to get a replacement and found every single one in the store had defective thread tapping! They all had cracks at four spacings of the thread tapper. There happened to be a machinist in the store who over heard my conversation. He examined my defective part and the other items in the store and agreed with my conclusion, that the thread tapper was rotating at far too fast a rate. He also felt that the brass was substandard and likely had too much zinc compared to copper. I was suspicious of that also. In his words, the product was "junk". I took the fitting where the stress lines lined up perfectly with the shoulders of the nut. I thought that was the one least likely to fail. That has been installed and the tile put back tomorrow. The ceiling in the bathroom below needs repair. Total bill for this episode, will be a little over $1000.00.
State Farm are well aware of this problem with Zurn plumbing fittings. The cost of this repair is about my deductible. They suggest getting the money from Zurn. I have been in contact with their industry rep. He has been conciliatory and has sent me a claim form. However they want me to send them the defective fitting. This I'm reluctant to do. Also on the Internet I have found that Zurn have stopped paying for home repairs due to failure of this product. The other issue is that our home is not safe. This Zurn Q-PEX system needs taking out and replacing with standard copper plumbing. To do this the shower in the master bath needs to be substantially dismantled. In the main level bathroom the tub would have to come out. This will be a big bill. Like Denise and Terry Cox I believe Zurn should pay. What I would like from you is whether or not by joining this suit or suing Zurn individually, I have any chance of getting these needed repairs paid for? I would certainly value your honest opinion in this matter.
Unfortunately substandard goods, especially from China are far too common. The county of origin of this part is not stated on the part or packaging. Zurn refused to disclose to me the country of origin. However what I have seen today represents for me a new low benchmark in this modern world's race to the bottom. A failure of a half inch brass nut would have been unthinkable in eighteenth century England, but not apparently in the 21st century world manufacturing.
I'm not an individual who rushes to lawyers and have never sued any one. However Zurn need severe punishment, and need to make proper restitution to their customers. One Minnesota plumbing firm alone has had to deal with 150 of these failures. Apparently 130 million of these have been sold. It seems many are destined to fail over the next year or two, in fact it may well be the majority. This one outfit will likely rack up more in property damage than the last few years natural disasters, including hurricane Katrina. Everybody pays for this gross malfeasance, in increased property insurance. So the damage caused to society by this one $3 item is potentially immense. And that is the other problem, the item ought to cost about $8 to $12 if made properly. A good deal of the responsibility for all of this sort of egregious malfeasance goes right to the front doors of the major big box retailers.
Here is a link to the pictures I took today.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/3975792#231080704

Here are pictures of the home.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2467814#P-1-12

We really can do without Zurn's negligence ruining these nice spaces.

I await your thoughtful and honest reply with interest.
Yours Faithfully, Mark Carter MD

I certainly hope you handle this matter honorably and correctly. If you don't your name will be raked through the mud and I will do more than my share. I think without an honest and fair attempt to make restitution you likely will be put out of business.

[master plumber mark]

jump out of this Kitech thread and start your own
thread .....

This is a NEW HOT TOPIC and you should

repost this whole comment you made
so that others will know about this new ZURN fiasco....

Its everywhere in indianapolis ....literally millions of miles
of the crap is out there ..sold by major plumbing supply
houses and also by the knowledgeble fellows at LOWES...

I am going to be a busy beaver once this really hits the fan..




You would be wise to just change it all out before other
damages begin...

the pic of the actual
pipe that blew apart ....is that an adaptor that is
attached to a brass faucet?????

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I really liked your comment

However what I have seen today represents for me a new low benchmark in this modern world's race to the bottom. A failure of a half inch brass nut would have been unthinkable in eighteenth century England, but not apparently in the 21st century world manufacturing.......


We the USA have sold our souls to the devil---
its called Nafta or the new world order....
or whatever you want to call
all the cheap crappy junk flooding our shores.
including the people too.

as long as the stock market just goes
upwards into infinity that is all that matters in life.
cheap goods and slave albor..


we give our blue collar jobs away to the mexicans and chinese
and we get poor quality dog crap shipped
back to us in return.


Zurn will most likely go bankrupt and or leave the
country and re-incorporate in Canada just like Kitech did

Zurn might actually have more of this product out in the
market than kitech has..

So I doubt that they will do the honorable thing


once they realize that their goose is cooked they
will take theri lawyers advice and they will bail .








I also liked that photo gallery that you have your pictures on....and I wonder how many can be uploaded to that siet and how quickly

[wet!]

jump out of this Kitech thread and start your own
thread .....

This is a NEW HOT TOPIC and you should

repost this whole comment you made
so that others will know about this new ZURN fiasco....

Its everywhere in indianapolis ....literally millions of miles
of the crap is out there ..sold by major plumbing supply
houses and also by the knowledgeble fellows at LOWES...

I am going to be a busy beaver once this really hits the fan..




You would be wise to just change it all out before other
damages begin...

the pic of the actual
pipe that blew apart ....is that an adaptor that is
attached to a brass faucet?????

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I really liked your comment

However what I have seen today represents for me a new low benchmark in this modern world's race to the bottom. A failure of a half inch brass nut would have been unthinkable in eighteenth century England, but not apparently in the 21st century world manufacturing.......


We the USA have sold our souls to the devil---
its called Nafta or the new world order....
or whatever you want to call
all the cheap crappy junk flooding our shores.
including the people too.

as long as the stock market just goes
upwards into infinity that is all that matters in life.
cheap goods and slave albor..


we give our blue collar jobs away to the mexicans and chinese
and we get poor quality dog crap shipped
back to us in return.


Zurn will most likely go bankrupt and or leave the
country and re-incorporate in Canada just like Kitech did

Zurn might actually have more of this product out in the
market than kitech has..

So I doubt that they will do the honorable thing


once they realize that their goose is cooked they
will take theri lawyers advice and they will bail .








I also liked that photo gallery that you have your pictures on....and I wonder how many can be uploaded to that siet and how quickly

Thanks for the tip, and advice. Here is a link to the new thread.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?p=111629#post111629

[wet!]

Thanks for the tip, and advice. Here is a link to the new thread.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?p=111629#post111629

By the way yes, that brass fitting was connected to the hot side of the master bath shower control. The control has a quality brass thread. Never ever expected to see anything like it!

[chipperman]

The Kitec is not the problem, it is the fittings. With the new plastic replacements, the problem is solved. And with the exception of the drop ells in the walls, most of the systems were on some kind of mainifold in an area easy to access. Sorry, repipe guys, but the piping is not problematic, and the cost to fix not all that bad.

[Cass]

Seems like if they had spent another 25 cents on the fittings they wouldn't be having the problems and everyone would be happy today and they might even have more $$$ in their company coffers. With the low cost of the piping no one would have flinched to spend a little more for fittings.

I would say greed somewhere along the line was the culprit.

[wet!]

The Kitec is not the problem, it is the fittings. With the new plastic replacements, the problem is solved. And with the exception of the drop ells in the walls, most of the systems were on some kind of mainifold in an area easy to access. Sorry, repipe guys, but the piping is not problematic, and the cost to fix not all that bad.

This was a ZURN fitting. It was lousy brass and very poorly machined. I bet this is the first generation in three hundred years, that has managed to make brass nuts that fail!

[chipperman]

I understand the Zurn fittings were bad. I didn't mean to mislead. I haven't had experience with Zurn, only Kitec. The brass fittings were expensive, I'm sure, and the ones I used were well made. But, that doesn't overcome a bad chemical reaction. Brass is strong, machines well, and makes a strong fitting. I think they were forced into the plastic. It seems to work well, and is just as easy to use, but they only make it in a crimp fitting. Trying to fight the various code requirements makes it difficult. I have heard plumbers say the plastic fittings are a fire hazard. By the time they melt in the wall, you will have other problems of a much greater concern.

And, of course, everyone went to Taiwan or China for the manufacture because of cost, not always equivalent quality. But as any contractor can tell you, the low bidder always does the best work!

[jconta]

Yes, there is a potential lawsuit for California and Arizona consumers. I am a legal investigator, working for the attorneys who are putting this case together. There were cases similar regarding Kitec, already litigated in New Mexico and Nevada. Where are you from? Please contact me either by phone at 661 312-5156, or email at jconta@batza-associates.com

Thanks,

Jennifer Conta

[wet!]

I was contacted by a near by home owner about the failure of another Zurn brass fitting yesterday.

The circumstances are as follows. He left his expensive log home for 90 minutes. When he returned he heard water running. He had 4 inches of water in his basement. The cause:- another Zurn fitting had failed and the nut split in half and the pipe fell free in the wall space. Water leak was estimated at 120 gallons per hour at least.

Damage is severe. New water heater, new sheet rock new carpet.

Now the interesting part. His insurer says he has to remove all Zurn plumbing or there will be no payment for future claims. This job will be $80,000 to $100,000. This is at his expense. Now his legal advice has been to sue his Plplumber which he is going to do. His lawyers have said it will be easier to sue the plumber than Zurn, he can then sue the distributor who can then sue Zurn.

Now this is a small rural plumber. I feel really sorry for him.

This is a small sparsely populated area, and we have now had three cases of this type of failure that I'm aware of.

My advice to plumbers: - Do not install any more Zurn Q-pex plumbing.

My advice to retailers and distributors: - Return all Zurn Q-pex plumbing parts and don't stock it in future.

If you don't take this advice, you are likely to get yourself knee deep in lawyers.

Plumbers, don't be surprised if you get forced to bear the total cost of removing the Zurn Q-pex you have installed.

[TXHomeowner]

Chipper Man,,,,,,,,, I have been unable to find anyone locally (Texas) that knows about the plastic replacement fittings you mentioned. Can you tell me where to find them and the brand name? We have a new house that was plumbed with Kitec, and between the time it was roughed in and the time it needed to be topped out, the kitec was pulled from the market and all quotes to replumb were too high,,, so we waited for someone to come out with a replacement fitting to solve the problem,,,,, as you suggested.

[KITEC-VICTIM]

You might try DORON LEVIN an ATTORNEY in HOUSTON,TX. He placed a notice on craigslist. His phone number is 1-888-935-2929 or 713-229-9300 & the website is www.levinclients.com. I am from Seguin, TX and had my NEW home entirely plumbed in 2007 with KITEC. If anyone knows a legal council in TEXAS who plans to go into a class action suit against the mftr of KITEC PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!! THANK YOU!

[polyresearch]

Hello KITEC-VICTIM. From what I can gather their may be tons of Kitec victims in central Texas. In speaking to a few fellow plumbers and others within the industry it sounds like there may be a good amount of failing Kitec fittings from San Antonio to clear north of Austin. I'm sure Houston and DFW area are also having problems as well. In any event I ran across your posting this morning and strongly recommend that you contact Shawn Raiter of Larson King LLP at 877-373-5501. Feel free to email me directly with any other questions at polyresearch@yahoo.com.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Wow,


This is the first I heard that this product was failing in texas. I thought it was limited to just Las Vegas Nevada.

[Redwood]

It's failing everywhere it was installed.
Even in Canada it has been pulled from the market!

[nhmaster]

This website has been established by Class Counsel to provide information to class members of the class action lawsuit involving brass KITEC® plumbing fittings ("Kitec® Fittings") that was certified by the Nevada District Court on October 16, 2006, which alleges that KITEC® Fittings are defective because they dezincify and fail when exposed to water.


This class action includes all owners of residences in Clark County, Nevada that contain, or at any time contained, a Kitec and/or PlumBetter piping system and/or components, although it is now believed this product was not used extensively in Clark County beyond 2004.

IMPORTANT CASE UPDATES

Class Counsel recently reached a tentative settlement with the manufacturer of the Kitec brass fittings, Ipex, Inc. and IPEX USA, LLC, for $90,000,000. This settlement does not resolve the entire In Re Kitec Fitting Litigation case as claims remain against the home builders and the plumbers. Because this is a partial settlement, it will not be enough by itself to re-plumb homes. Therefore, litigation will continue against the home builders and plumbers that have not yet settled. This settlement must still be approved by the Court and by the Class, which will take several months. The settlement may be appealed by other defendants in the case, which may substantially delay Class Counsel’s ability to use these funds for repairs. For more information regarding this settlement and how it may affect your rights, please read the Notice of Preliminary Approval of Settlement and Fairness Hearing and the Fifth Notice of Class Action documents in the Updates section of this website and/or contact our office at the telephone number provided below.

If you wish to support the proposed Ipex Settlement, click on the banner below.

[trauschu]

Well, another home in S. Texas with Kitec in it. We bought the home new from a small custom builder in July '08. From what I can tell, it was plumbed in mid-'07 during framing, and the water was turned on in May '08.

No fitting leaks, YET....

But, two questions:

1) There was mention of new plastic fittings for use with the Kitec tube. Is there any more info on these? I would like to install a water softener, but getting fittings for this Kitec is next to impossible. If there is an approved plastic fitting, I would like to use it.

2) The documention from the Las Vegas class action suit said that the water there was very hard. Could this excessive mineral content in Las Vegas help cause the aggressive decomposition of the Kitec brass fittings? If so, S. Central Texas is going to be the second big lawsuit if there is as much Kitec down here as was stated in the previous post, as we also have VERY hard aquifer water here.

So then, back to my #2 question. Has there been any research into water softeners in relation to the brass fittings? Will installing a water softener to effectively remove the minerals in these hard water area help prolong the brass Kitec fittings? Is it worth a shot?

Ideas? Suggestions?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

trauschu,



Tear that complete system out, make it all disappear and get something reliable in there.


There are no quick fixes.

[polyresearch]

Well, another home in S. Texas with Kitec in it. We bought the home new from a small custom builder in July '08. From what I can tell, it was plumbed in mid-'07 during framing, and the water was turned on in May '08.

No fitting leaks, YET....

But, two questions:

1) There was mention of new plastic fittings for use with the Kitec tube. Is there any more info on these? I would like to install a water softener, but getting fittings for this Kitec is next to impossible. If there is an approved plastic fitting, I would like to use it.

2) The documention from the Las Vegas class action suit said that the water there was very hard. Could this excessive mineral content in Las Vegas help cause the aggressive decomposition of the Kitec brass fittings? If so, S. Central Texas is going to be the second big lawsuit if there is as much Kitec down here as was stated in the previous post, as we also have VERY hard aquifer water here.

So then, back to my #2 question. Has there been any research into water softeners in relation to the brass fittings? Will installing a water softener to effectively remove the minerals in these hard water area help prolong the brass Kitec fittings? Is it worth a shot?

Ideas? Suggestions?

I assume you're talking about the Edwards Aquifer? A couple of things you'll have to consider regarding the purchase/installation of a water softener. It's my understanding that in some cases these fittings are failing in a little as two years time. If you install a water softener now you may just be prolonging an inevitable leak at some point in the near future. If you'd prefer a softener for other reasons then I'd go ahead an get one. However if you're just buying one to extend the life of the system then you may be better served by starting to budget for a whole house repipe. At a minimum you may want to locate your home's main shutoff valve and turn the water off when you plan to by away for any extended period of time, including for example before you head out to work. The last thing you want is to have a leak while your away from home.

[master plumber mark]

Rugged....didnt we talk about how all these different pexes
would eventually fail someday...

I think it was only two years ago,,

i did not think it would happen this fast...


Lots of Ki-tech around here in indiana too

and our water is the worst in the USA

[kitec]

I talked to a lawyer who's working on this case - very helpful. yes, there is a lawsuit because the kitec fittings are bad. I have them in my house and there has only been 1 leak but i'm not wanting anymore problems. the lawyers number who I talked to is 1-888-935-2929 and I found his website at www.levinclients.com.

[kitec]

Yes there is a bunch of class action lawsuits filed against Ipex, the company that makes Kitec. I talked to one of the law firms involved in the cases that have been filed and they sent me papers to join. Supposably it is the brass fittings that go bad and need to be replaced. Call them yourself if you have Kitec. 1888-935-2929 or website www.law29.com. Good luck.

[Linda702]

There is a big class action suit in Las Vegas over Kitec Plumbing. Some neighborhoods have settled. (Basically, it covers the cost to replace all the fittings throughout the house. My friend has a small single story. It took several weeks.) A real pain. See: http://www.plumbingdefect.com/index.html

[biggy]

ok this is my first post and after reading threw some other posts here, im not sure this is the right place to ask this but....

i live in canada, i have ipex piping in my home, the blue and orange stuff, any way, my cold water pipe to the outside tap, the pipe inside my house just short of the shut off valve, has split, and causeing a leak, is there anyway to fix this? my home is 4yrs old and this is the first ive heard and read about the problems with this type of piping?

anhy advice or suggestions?

[Redwood]

ok this is my first post and after reading threw some other posts here, im not sure this is the right place to ask this but....

i live in canada, i have ipex piping in my home, the blue and orange stuff, any way, my cold water pipe to the outside tap, the pipe inside my house just short of the shut off valve, has split, and causeing a leak, is there anyway to fix this? my home is 4yrs old and this is the first ive heard and read about the problems with this type of piping?

anhy advice or suggestions?

It has been withdrawn from the market even in Canada I believe about a year ago.

I'm not sure what is being done to redress this problem in Canada but I'll bet there is something going on there too...

[kingsotall]

*Nuzzles closer to his Uponor expander tool... * :(

[jeffusa]

It looks like I have been dragged into this Kitec nightmare.

I'm one unlucky person that bought a foreclosure late last year and have since found out about this Kitec piping. I can't believe I could get through the whole process of buying a home and nobody mentioned anything about this Kitec stuff. From what I have heard there are over 40,000 homes in the Las Vegas valley here that have this piping.

The house I own was built in 2000. There is a big orange sticker on the electrical box that the house has Kitec plumbing. Kitec plumbing has been verified in this house by a lawyer's team that is working on class action lawsuits for this issue. They cut a little hole in the wall underneath one of my sinks to verify Kitec was inside the wall and then they took pictures of it with a miniature camera on a flexible hose.

Since day one, my plumbing system appears to show the advanced issues of Kitec. All the shower and bathtub fixtures have reduced waterflow. At first, I thought maybe I just needed new showerheads. Now after finding out about the Kitec problems it confirms the issues in the Bathrooms.

I certainly did not sign up for these problems when I bought the house. If I would have known about this issue I would have never made an offer on this house. I just can't believe that the inspector, real estate agent or anybody else did not say anything about this.

It could be years before the class action lawsuit comes through and has the plumbing system redone in this house. In the meantime, I could be dealing with serious problems which already appear to be developing based on the reduced waterflow.

So, to get out this mess, I'm gonna try to see if I can find a lawyer who will help me (with my meager funds) to sue the real estate agent, inspector, the FHA, and the bank to take this house back. Or I will just have to let this place foreclose and declare bankruptcy. What a nightmare.

[MikaelJ]

I agree. My home warranty that came with my house was more of a problem than the issues I had with my air conditioning system. I dont recomend them at all. It was the worst customer service I have ever had in my entire life.

[donnagvia]

Kitec Brass Pipe and Fittings Lawsuits

Class action lawsuits have been filed against the manufacturers of "Pex" pipe and "brass fittings" used in residential construction: Zurn-Pex has been sued, as has Kitec.

Kitec Pex Pipe and Fittings:

Kitec pipes and fittings may fail prematurely causing leaks and water damage to your property. At least one expert evaluation has found that Kitec pipes have a manufacturing defect that can cause corrosion in the pipes. Corrosion can result in leaks and other problems with your plumbing system.

Kitec consists of flexible aluminum pipe sandwiched between an inner and outer layer of plastic pipe (PEX Pipe). Kitec generally comes in two colors: blue (for cold water use) and orange (for hot water use). The pipes are manufactured by IPEX USA LLC and have been used in houses as far back as 10 to 15 years ago.

Kitec pipe and fittings fail when they are exposed to water because of a chemical reaction known as dezincification, which results in reduced water flow and leaks. Dezincified Kitec pipe and fittings cause damage not only when they burst and leak, but also impair the ability of a home's plumbing system to effectively provide water to appliances and fixtures.

If you or someone you know have incurred property damage or economic losses due to failed Kitec pipes, or if you believe Kitec pipes may have been used in your home, contact Audet & Partners at 800.965.1461 and ask to speak with attorney Michael McShane.

[Redwood]

Anybody want to believe Donna is a spammer now?

[donnagvia]

No Redwood, sorry I really just thought it might be useful information for someone with this problem.

Not everyone in this world has ulterior motives.

Donna

[aoreo]

I just found this thread even though it's a bit dated, as I'm running into a similar scenario and wanted to see if anyone had input?

I have Kitec piping, but my failure is from the piping itself. Apparantley bubbles/bulges are forming in the pipe and leaks are starting. My house is 7 years old, so I think a bit premature for this. The last plumber has told me I need to re-pipe the whole house, as he sees other pipes deteriorating. I've already had to do 3 repairs.

I called IPEX and they said they have to take a look at my home first and collect samples of the bad pipe and go from there to see if it is really a pipe defect. Apparantley a few homes in my area have the same issue.

So what I am wondering is, do I repipe or just install a new heating system all together. My neighbor is looking into minisplit ductless system. If I repipe, what piping should I use? My worst fear is repiping only to have leaks again in a few years.

Should I wait for IPEX to come back with an answer (could be months) before repiping? The drawback is that I have tenants in there.

Any help/suggestions appreciated!

[Mikey]

Kitec pipe and fittings fail when they are exposed to water...
Am I the only one who thinks this is pretty funny?

[Doherty Plumbing]

Not everyone in this world has ulterior motives.

Or spell check.

[Jrednaxela]

Found this on the web, maybe it will help http://www.plumbingdefect.com/index.html
This website has been established by Class Counsel to provide information to class members of the class action lawsuit involving brass KITEC® plumbing fittings ("Kitec® Fittings") that was certified by the Nevada District Court on October 16, 2006, which alleges that KITEC® Fittings are defective because they dezincify and fail when exposed to water.


This class action includes all owners of residences in Clark County, Nevada that contain, or at any time contained, a Kitec and/or PlumBetter piping system and/or components, although it is now believed this product was not used extensively in Clark County beyond 2004.

[millerrob]

I'm looking for a sample of kitec pipe and/or fittings and hope someone here can help me. Let me explain a bit.

I'm a home inspector by trade but am going to be teaching a continuing education class in the evening for first time home buyers. Just kind of the basics of obvious things to look for when walking through homes. I do run into a fair amount of kitec plumbing on home inspections but I write my report and move on. I'm never around for the repipe. I'd like to get a sample of the blue or orange pipe and maybe some fittings that I could pass around in class as visual aids. So if anyone on here is getting their kitec system replaced or does repipes for a living and could save a foot or two of pipe before it goes in the trash I can paypal you for your trouble and shipping, just shoot me a pm. Thanks in advance. -Rob

[ShawnaG]

Is anyone still paying attention to this thread? I just discovered a water leak (36,000 gallons in one month...) and my plumber friend told me to look up the class action lawsuit with Kitec. I did and it said to find out if you have that type of pipe, there should be a sticker in the electrical panel. I looked at the electrical panel and it says Aquapex. As far as I can tell, there is no evidence of a lawsuit or complaints of defective piping with Aquapex. The leak, however, is right in the fitting, (which is in my plumber's hands as we speak). Is it possible that the fitting is the brass fitting made by Kitec? If so, my home would not qualify for the lawsuit.....anyone know anything about this? My house was built in 2001 on the southern end of Las Vegas. Luckily, so far in the game, I think this is a fairly easy and somewhat inexpensive fix. I am hoping it doesn't get worse. My fear is that they used the Kitec fittings throughout, but I'm not sure how to find out. Any suggestions or input for me? Thanks!!

[ShawnaG]

Rob, I have a blue pipe with the fitting attached that I need to use to try and get mine replaced, but once I'm finished with it, you're welcome to it if you still need it. you can email me @ silvermist52875@gmail.com