New tile under flange or around it?

Just pulled up the old vinyl floor and leveled it with self leveler, added hardibacker to whole floor. Its time to put in the new flange but should I put it over the tile job Im about to do or should I mount the flange to the hardibacker and cut the tile so that it sits around the flange?

flange on top of new tile is the target

flange over the tile or around it

Thanks, but how do you get the screws to mount the flange though the tile? Wont the tile break?

To make it easier to mount the flange, when cutting the tile, make slots where the screws that mount it to the floor so you don't have to drill through the tile. Some tile are fairly easy, but some porcelains are a real beak. Much easier on the tile-saw or diamond grinder.

What I did...

I retiled my bathroom two years ago. I didn't have to lay cementboard as I had vinyl tiles that I removed which were sitting on top of some old school tiles set in like four inches of cement. My flange was cast Iron to cast iron, so I wasn't removing it just to do the tiling. Given that a lot of people have this kind of flange in an older house, I imagine that the standard procedure is to tile around the flange. I could be wrong, however.

Anyway, I wound up just tiling around the flange. The new tiles were stones in mesh sheets. But in my case, there were already tiles under the flange.

Since no one is going to see under there, you could just arrange things so that the holes for the flange go into grout rather than drilling the tiles, which seems a bit harder.

I'd trust one of these pros, but I'd bet that would be fine.

The picture that "coach" paints is common, but not strictly correct. The proper height of the flange is on top of the tile , not flush with it. His flange is too low, but can be accomodated by (a) using extra-thick wax (b) using no-wax ring (c) adding one or two 1/4" thick flange extensions to get the height up.

SO. while the proper answer is to raise the flange, this is often not a trivial task, and could be beyond the skill level of a DIY or tile installer. Unless you use one of the procedures I mentioned above, a low flange is likely to cause trouble.

Thanks...

Thanks for the info. I didn't know that about flange height. Luckily, I haven't had any problems despite the lowered flange height.

My guess still is that most of the time when tiling is done the flange is not removed, but is tiled around. Whether or no this creates a huge volume of problems is up in the air. I know tons of people who have tiled around the flange and I haven't heard of many problems. Even plumbers who've installed rough ins for me have left the tiling for later. I mean, most tile isn't that thick. In my case, I used natural stones that were very thick and things were still okay. This isn't to say that you can't have a problem, though. It could cause a leak in the seal of the wax ring.

It's something to keep in mind. I'd hate to be the person who has a big problem because of tiling around the flange. But honestly, it's very common and doesn't seem to cause too many problems. I've done it twice with no problems and I know lots of people who do it all the time.

Since it's pretty easy for you to do it on this job, seems worth it to me.

A cast iron pipe and flange is (usually) quite sturdy on its own. It should still be mounted to the subflooring, but often isn't, again, because it is quite stiff. PVC or ABS on the other hand, is quite flexible. To ensure you have something to anchor to, you should screw the plastic to the floor. Using extra wax rings makes the toilet more susceptable to blowout if you need to use a plunger. It can last a long time and not give problems. It is better if you do it right.

If the tile is installed properly and the thinset has cured, drilling through it should not create problems. You might need a diamond drill bit, though, depending on the type. The easier thing is to plan ahead and slot the tile so you don't have to drill through it. Having the flange well supported by and on top of the finished flooring is the only correct way, any othermethod is a make do and has (maybe minor) compromises.

Please explain...

Jim,

I'm not sure I see how tiling around the flange can affect it's support. Clearly, the best way to do it is the way you've stated it, with the flange on top of the finished flooring. But even if you have a pvc flange and pipe screwed into the subfloor and backerboard and then tile around it it should be well supported.

Seems like the only issue would be whether the flange height creates an issue with the seal of the wax ring. Either way the flange is screwed into the flooring.

flange

You can buy deep closet flanges. That would be doing it the proper and best way.

It's probably the easiest too.

If the existing flange is properly anchored to the floor, then tiling up to it has a height issue. You can overcome that with flange extenders, but every time you add a part, it is one more opportunity for it to fail, plus the further down in the floor the whole thing is just makes it harder to remove if and when you ever decide to do it. MANY are installed as inidcated without problems, but it is easier for there to be problems if you don't get all of the new pieces together properly - the extender rings can leak, and it would be below the floor surface and thus, you might not notice it until the floor rotted out and the toilet fell through. Granted, that typically would take a long time. Carpenter ants adn termites just love damp wood, too. A few drops every flush might not create a stain on the ceiling below, but it can feed wood rot.

tile above flange or around it.

Thanks for all the info. I slotted the tile and put the flange over it used a fluidmaster wax ring (standard size, not a thick one) and it came out great. No plroblems YET. I did my best to check for leaks but I guess if there is a problem my downstairs neighbor will let me know soon enough or the toilet will fall on his head in ten years from the rot.

flange

Years ago the toilets horn was much longer and would extend into the flange and below the level of the floor. Today the horn is the same as the base of the toilet, but still extends below the top of the flange if the flange is sitting on top of the floor.

I've seen toilets mounted with closet screws and no flange and that doesn't make it a good installation.

If you hang around long enough you'll see all kinds if installations, but if you want to do the job the right way, set the flange on top of the floor. Less likely to have a problem.

I'm currently working on re-installing an old toilet after retiling my 1/2 bath. The tiling part went smooth, but hit a snag with the toilet. My flange is low, and the slots are cracked, so my bolts won't stay in. Do you recommend glueing down a superflange to hold the bolts, or maybe screwing a superflange into the old one? The original flange (all the I saw when removing the toilet (which was on raised tile) is still there and about 1/2 inch lower than floor. I don't really see making the flange over the tile a possibility.