View Full Version : Need Advice on Replacing Cast
rmelo99
07-07-2006, 06:42 AM
I need some advice from the plumbing pros. I purchased a 3 story colonial build in 1900. I am remodeling the entire house.
There is 1 bathroom on the 3rd floor with a cast drain stack that is used for it, the 1/2 bath on the 1st floor and the bathroom in the basement.
There is another stack that is used for the main bath on the 2nd floor and for the kitchen drains and venting.
The third stack is used just for the master bathroom on the second floor.
I have gutted the master bath and main bathroom on the 2nd floor. While neither of these 2 cast iron soil stacks is leaking I have just about all the walls open to where they run.
The stack that goes to the third floor is leaking in the basement, but I don't know where in the run. I haven't gutted those bathrooms yet.
The question of the day is should I replace these cast soil stacks with PVC? How old are these, are they 100 yrs old like the house? Am I asking for trouble by not replacing them now? Do they deteriorate? In addition I think it will make things a whole lot easier to install new fixtures in different locations if I switch to PVC. I will not have to use fernco adapters.
The 1 1/2"-2" drains/vents for tubs and sinks are all galvanized pipe.
If I do decide to tackle replacing the piping, is there any reason I can't leave the vent side of the stacks galvanized/cast?
Thanks
Rem
rmelo99
07-12-2006, 06:03 AM
^^^^^bump^^^^^
rmelo99
01-06-2007, 07:00 PM
Getting back to my ollllddd post.
Yes the project is still going on, and i am at the point where I do need some advice on what to do with these 3 stacks.
Turns out that 3 are not cast. One is hub cast iron, and the other 2 are 4" galvanized, assembled with threaded sections.
I know what happens to smaller galvanized piping, with narrrowing but is the same true for 4" DWV(most people think I'm crazy when I tell them 2 stacks are galvanized)
If I am to replace or splice into this piping how should I cut it? The cast one has enough room to get a snapper around it but the galvanized ones are tight on both sides.
The old toilet plumbing had lead elbows that I know must go. But Can I reuse the stacks and just replace the sink and tub drains with pvc.
If the vents can easily be replaced I would do it. If not use banded couplings to transition from the galv. to PVC plastic. If you need to cut the galv. use a saws all and the appropriate metal cutting blade. I have run into some galv. pipe that was so hard it would take the teeth off a new blade.
Randyj
01-06-2007, 10:05 PM
My 3 blade pipe cutter will cut 4" pipe with no problem... might be able to rent one. My other choice would be a porta-band for the galvanized. Nothing but snap cutters for the cast iron. As for replacing any of it... hmmm...if it lasted 100 years and is still in good shape then I'd be tempted to keep it. As for anything else.... pvc sure makes maintenance and remodeling a heck of alot easier and less expensive. Using Fernco's is not a big deal to me. If they are snug, the pipe is cut square and pushed up to the stops then they are as good as anything for the flow. Any good installation will have adequate support for the pipes.
Austin Home Improvement
01-06-2007, 11:42 PM
Get it out asap! take out the old and put in the new. Don't wait around for a leak on new drywall. it will also give value to your home. don't be scared just do it man. YOu can use lenox blades to cut both galv. and cast. they make a blade for both. ( here is a little trick), use hot glue on the inside of a banded coupling if it is going to be covered up because banded couplings leak and they suck out the butt.
RioHyde
01-07-2007, 01:07 AM
Gotta disagree with Austin about the banded couplings. If they were prone to leaking like he's making them out to be then they wouldnt be an approved fitting in every plumbing code I know of. Perhaps they arent getting torqued to specs or there isnt sufficient support for the piping? Without seeing the application its rather hard to say. I've been using them for years without incident.
Frankly, I'd get rid of the cast and galvanized drains while I had the walls open. Could be that they could go another 100 years without a problem, but my line of thinking is, "why take the chance?". The vents most likely are fine, but again, if it were me I'd replace them just because I had the walls open.
If you have room for the snappers on the cast use them. Even the carbide Lenox blades are a PIA on cast in comparison. You're going to have to make the transition from PVC to cast and/or galvanized at some point. The banded couplings (cast to PVC) will work fine for you.
http://www.fernco.com/proflex.asp
I have been using banded couplings for years and years, they are what is supposed to be used by code . Leaks are very rare. I have never and would never use hot glue on the inside of a banded coupling connection.
solsacre
01-07-2007, 05:08 AM
Any Galv. I would rip out.... the cast.........
If you find any reason to doubt it, rip it out... but think about this.
Unless you insulate the pipe well you will hear the water rushing down the PVC pipe... Cast Iron to some contractors is called quiet pipe. It's actually an upgrade to put no hub cast in the stacks.
quick, simple, piece of mind? Tear it all out and use PVC.
good luck
dances-with-pumps
markts30
01-07-2007, 06:52 AM
I have not had problems with small CI bands either...(6" and below).
When we use the larger sizes (10", 12", 14" etc) they do get a bit tricky to install without leaks but we find that is usually a case of getting them to seat right as the larger fittings are sometimes not that smooth around the casting seams...
solsacre
01-07-2007, 08:19 AM
small? I've never worked on anything above 6"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Randyj
01-07-2007, 10:04 AM
Sols... ya get into commercial then you'll run into some serious pipe. Ductile gets into using glands (funky high dollar compression type of coupling) rather than bands. One building I worked on used 8" and 10"... had to keep plenty of help and a backhoe and Lull around to help tote the stuff. All of the commercial work we did in Birmingham used cast iron with bands because it is "the quiet pipe". Myself, I'd rather use pvc and good insulation.
markts30
01-07-2007, 11:18 AM
Got a commercial office we are doing with a parking structure in it....
The main building drains are 6" and the roof drains are 6, 8, 10 and 12" cast iron...
One school we did had a set of 15" CI roof drains - that is about 515lb. for a 10' stick...
When we say "small" cast iron pipe, it usually means the size you can carry by yourself...
I would not want to have to carry 8" and above alone - but 6" and lower is not a problem...
Now with copper, I don't like to carry anything over 3" alone - 4" and higher is heavy and I won't even try to carry any type K over 2.5" alone... That is some serious pipe...
Randyj
01-07-2007, 06:15 PM
Woah bubba.... that's some serious pipe! Man, if I get tired of hanging around here I'll come work for you. I kinda got into that cast iron thing for a while....but burned out on being around so many of the scuzzy type construction workers... man there were some freaks on one job! For the most part tho' the guys were really good and nice to work with.
rmelo99
01-08-2007, 08:53 PM
Ok, so we cut into one section of 4" galvanized tonight.
20 reciprocating saw blades later we got one 7' section (2 cuts).
There has to be another way!! 10 blades were blu-mol and 10 were milwalkee i think. They were the best looking ones they had.
I tried finding the "lennox" blade mentioned but HD didn't have it. I have a whole lot more pipe to remove. And at $20 per cut in blades it is gonna be expensive unless I find another way.
Try using a metal cutting blade on a circular saw to cut as much as you can. Or I have used a small angle grinder with metal cutting blade also. High speed will create heat and ruin the teeth on the saws all blade, slow down the speed.
Lowes carries Lenox, so HD doesn't. They're also often found at plumbing distributers.
One thing to consider is the fittings used with the galvanized--they are generally cast iron, which can be readily broken with a hammer. That may be the easy way to disassemble some of this.
rmelo99
01-09-2007, 07:49 AM
how can I tell for sure if their cast fittings(short of wailing on them and hoping for them to crack)
The fittings and couplings are all threaded 4" if that helps. They are also the same "grey" as galvanized not brown like cast iron.
how can I tell for sure if their cast fittings(short of wailing on them and hoping for them to crack)
The fittings and couplings are all threaded 4" if that helps. They are also the same "grey" as galvanized not brown like cast iron.
Sorry I can't give better advice on identification. I was passing along a tip I received from a plumber 25+ years ago when I was working on my first home, a late 1930's vintage. It worked for me then, but I haven't worked on anything but plastic or copper drains since then.
markts30
01-10-2007, 03:42 PM
Most threaded iron fittings are cast...(AFAIK)
Best thing to do is to break them off if demoing sections of the system...
Get a 2.5 lb single-jack (small sledge) and hold it against the fitting then hit the fitting hard with a standard framing hammer - the single-jack will act like an anvil and stop the hammer from damaging more than the fitting you are hitting...
The heavy weight of the single-jack means it does not bounce much when the hammer hits the fitting - don't try this with 2 framing hammers or 2 single-jacks - you will most likely hurt yourself...
PVC Life expectancy? Does anyone know how long this stuff lasts? In particular the joints?
Molo
Well if we can get odds on it I would guess that in 1-200 years the PVC will be the same. The problem is I don't think I will be around to find out if I am right. :D
Randyj
01-13-2007, 09:21 AM
The only thing you'll have to worry about that will cause PVC to have a short life span is heat and U.V. CPVC takes the heat and there is a PVC made for exposure to sunlight and contains UV inhibitors.
Dunbar Plumbing
01-13-2007, 09:24 AM
Got a commercial office we are doing with a parking structure in it....
The main building drains are 6" and the roof drains are 6, 8, 10 and 12" cast iron...
One school we did had a set of 15" CI roof drains - that is about 515lb. for a 10' stick...
When we say "small" cast iron pipe, it usually means the size you can carry by yourself...
I would not want to have to carry 8" and above alone - but 6" and lower is not a problem...
Now with copper, I don't like to carry anything over 3" alone - 4" and higher is heavy and I won't even try to carry any type K over 2.5" alone... That is some serious pipe...
I had to take pain medication just reading this.
Dunbar Plumbing
01-13-2007, 09:35 AM
PVC Life expectancy? Does anyone know how long this stuff lasts? In particular the joints?
Molo
Dictated solely by the workmanship when it was installed.
If the piping wasn't properly bedded underground or piping wasn't properly secured/supported through the walls and like, then naturally the system won't be error-free. Straining plastic piping into position no matter if it is flexible at the time...is the worst practice I've seen in regards to pipe/fitting damage down the road. PVC is like glass after a few years. Have to be very careful when working with the existing when adding on to it.
There is a plumber in my area that actually lost his master's license because he was roughing bi-level homes, 2nd rough, 7 hours.....and that was running the plastic and copper.
Everything was cut with a hacksaw double blade
no sandpaper on any fittings or ends of copper; jabbed pipe in solder pail, none on the fittings
Sawzalled the holes for the closet flanges
Would go through 2 quarts of glue in a home per job due to sloppiness
Would do a ground rough completely flat to the ground....then walk around bridging the piping up with rocks for fall WTF???
No doubt the guy was making money but who cares. People couldn't flush their toilets without it clogging because his saw cuts were so crooked and never deburred....it was a guarantee that anything was going to hang up before heading out to the street.
The inspectors made a point of telling us plumbers in the area that if they EVER catch any of us pulling that nonsense, you'll suffer the same fate and lose your license. Rightfully so. Those homeowners are screwed literally in the long run because someone was throwing a system in without proper workmanship.
rmelo99
01-14-2007, 05:35 PM
Ok so I experimented with a metal cut off blade/disc on a circ saw.
It cuts the galvanized very well, but the sparks are scaring the sh.. out of me. This is a 100yr old house and the studs and wood lath are nice and dry. I stopped for fear of a spark dropping into the wall cavity and sparking a blaze.
Any tips there? I guess I might be over worrying but they fly like 10ft and in a steady stream.
I will use the saw for one of the stacks that is open on both sides and i have 360deg access but I have other sections that I only have a 16" stud cavity open on one wall side that I need to cut the pipe out of.
Dunbar Plumbing
01-14-2007, 06:06 PM
A diamond blade on a angle grinder will greatly reduce the sparks and cut a great deal faster.
Plumb or Die
01-14-2007, 09:20 PM
Most fittings I use on steel these days are malleable, but old puppies like what's in your place are undoubtably cast. I find a good heavy hammer like a two lb maul, and use the pointy end, works really good on smashing them. You gotta hit them like 50 times, but once they crack you got 'er made.
Also, as far as using an abrasive wheel, the thing to try is Zip-Cuts. They fit on a 4 1/2" angle grinder, like a grinding wheel but only about 5/32" thick. Way less sparks and easier to get into tight spaces. Soak the nearby wood down and your'e all good.
Also , if you don't already know, don't let the sparks hit and glass or tiles. The sparks will stick like sand and pit them up and you never get rid of the little particles.
Have fun.
solsacre
01-14-2007, 09:39 PM
Ok, so we cut into one section of 4" galvanized tonight.
20 reciprocating saw blades later we got one 7' section (2 cuts).
There has to be another way!!.
It's all in Your Speed... low Carbon steel is about 98 sfpm......
What that means is run your sawzall at about 3 or 2....... if your frying your blades it's too fast.... if your not cutting it's too slow....
Your trying to cut too fast... it's a formula...... look up the Macinist hand book, or just feal it out....... but your running your saw too fast.
slow down.... it'll cut faster.....
good luck
dances-with-pumps
Randyj
01-14-2007, 10:49 PM
If you're dealing with cast iron snap cutters is the only way to go. If you're just knocking off a fitting then a big hammer will crack it and knock it out in chunks. Sure you're not working with steel pipe?
rmelo99
01-15-2007, 07:07 PM
just a recap I am cutting steel pipe(galvanized is steel right?) The pipe then becomes cast when it hits the basement. one of the stacks is cast the whole way, a friend is lending me a snap cutter for that one.
Thanks for the tip on the diamond blade/grinder. I will give that a shot.
nimrod
01-15-2007, 07:43 PM
when cutting metal of any kind with a sawsall it is better to cut at a lower speed [variable speed sawsall] make sure you use lennox or milwaukee bimetal blades .milwaukee makes a cast iron blade with diamonds in it . they are costly but they are worth it when cutting close to concrete floor on older cast iron or in a tight spot . also having another person spray water on the blade will keep it cooler .