View Full Version : Toilet bowl loss of water
Carol olson
06-26-2006, 08:57 AM
My new toilet loses water after being flushed. It is higher for a few minutes then drops to a small amount of water in bowl. installed the same one in another bath and it works fine. Whats wrong?
Terry
06-26-2006, 09:01 AM
It may have a crack in the bowl.
dcalkins
06-30-2006, 12:25 PM
Same problem but this toilet was installed four years ago and has been working fine. The vent is open so there is no siphoning going on, the flapper has been replaced, an identical toilet downstairs works fine, etc. Is it possible for a bowl to crack under normal conditions - no kids, no freezing, no abuse, etc. Was it simply a defect waiting to break through? The water must be going down the drain since the ceiling downstairs isn't wet. It completly drains overnight.
Thanks,
Dave
Mikey
06-30-2006, 01:52 PM
Carol, when you flush, does the bowl clear completely and refill normally? When you say the water is "higher" for a few minutes, do you mean higher than normal, or just at the level it's supposed to be at? When it recedes, does the toilet slurp as the water settles at the lower level? If you carefully pour water slowly into the bowl, does the water return to its "normal" level and stay there?
Dave, if yours completely drains overnight, there almost has to be a leak in the bottom of the bowl -- can't be siphoning. If there's no water on the floor or on the ceiling below, there almost has to be an internal crack in the toilet allowing the bowl to drain into the normal drain. I hate to say "almost" so often, but I almost never use absolutes. Last-ditch guess: do you have a cat or a dog?
dcalkins
06-30-2006, 02:47 PM
No cat or dog, no activity in the house throughout the night. Bowl fills to normal level but drains completely overnight.
You are probably right about a crack but I'm just amazed that it would show up after so many / so few years of service.
Thanks for giving me my weekend project.
Dave
Mikey
06-30-2006, 03:53 PM
If it's any consolation, you're no more amazed than I'll be if that turns out to be the problem, but apparently it's more common than one would think.
plumber1
06-30-2006, 08:16 PM
I saw it happen twice as I remember and the toilets may have been 15 years old. I found a sand hole that was probably was patches when it was new and then sent out. It was a Kohler.
dcalkins
07-04-2006, 01:17 PM
Replaced the four year old Western 1.6 with an old American Standard 5.0 I had in storage for parts. That fixed the problen, no more water bowl leakage. I'll have to shop for a replacemment now. I'm looking for recommendations on Toto's new one. Thank you for the assistance.
Dave
I have problems with my toilet bowl losing water, too. Since my floor is dry, and there is no water stains on the lower floor (garage ceiling), I also thought I had a cracked bowl. I replaced the entire toilet with a new one, and I am still losing water! What's weird is that I don't even have to flush and the water level still drops. Doesn't this eliminate the venting/suction possibility? I am at a loss. I pour water in the bowl, and within an hour or so, the level has dropped. The next morning it is lower still by an inch or two. Within days, it is WAY down. The funny thing is, it does not ever appear to drain completely dry. Does anyone have any ideas here?
jadnashua
10-28-2008, 09:27 AM
Do you have any pets?
Is the floor level?
After a flush, it may take a minute or two for the bowl level to stabilize...it is like a cup that is filled to overflowing.
If it isn't vented properly, waste passing by could pull water out of the bowl but wouldn't be able to drain it dry. If you watch the bowl and someone runs water anywhere else, see if the level fluctuates. Could be the washing machine, another toilet, or maybe draining a tub...something that potentially has a high velocity flow.
If you were unlucky, if the bowl was defective, it could be dripping into the drain, and wouldn't show up on the floor. If you were really unlucky, it's dripping and destroying the subfloor.
I've lived here for over 10 years, and this problem only recently came about, so I'm pretty sure it isn't related to the floor not being level. The water level lowers even when the toilet has not been flushed. I can add water to the bowl (without flushing), and it will still lower. I thought about it being related to a washing machine, other toilet, etc. however, since the water level lowers further over-night, when no other plumbing fixtures are being used, I have ruled that out as well. Since I have installed a brand new toilet, the odds that the new bowl has a crack are rather slim. The sub-floor is dry and not soft.
Southern Man
10-28-2008, 12:02 PM
The water level will drop an inch or so if its windy outside and air passing over the vent outside causes pressure changes in the vent system. Do you think this is what's happening?
Terry
10-28-2008, 12:15 PM
Since I have installed a brand new toilet, the odds that the new bowl has a crack are rather slim.
Really?
And yet the old toilet didn't lose water?
I would pull the bowl, and test it overnight outside somewhere.
It's not uncommon for some brands to have a certain percentage of defective bowls and tank.
The wind theory is an interesting one. I live on a hill, where it is windy at times. However, my two other toilets do not lose any water. Aren't they all vented to the same vent? Also, this phenomenon just started a few months ago. I've lived there several years, but never had this problem. No cracks were noted on the old toilet, and the new toilet is an American Standard. I really don't think a cracked bowl is the problem...
Terry
10-28-2008, 02:30 PM
the new toilet is an American Standard
American Standard? (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4833&highlight=american+standard)
Why am I not surprised.
I may have found the answer! I just spoke with a business associate, and he had the exact same thing happen to him, not once, but TWICE! He experienced one toilet bowl water level fine, while one lost water - they were on the same floor! Another occasion, he said the toilets upstairs were fine, and the main floor toilet bowl lost water. He said in both instances, there was blockage down line. Once he cleared the blockage, the problems were resolved. Do you think this is purely coincidence, or is he on to something? He couldn't explain it, but said once the blockage was cleared, the toilets were normal again. What do you think?
Southern Man
10-28-2008, 07:18 PM
I may have found the answer! I just spoke with a business associate, and he had the exact same thing happen to him, not once, but TWICE! He experienced one toilet bowl water level fine, while one lost water - they were on the same floor! Another occasion, he said the toilets upstairs were fine, and the main floor toilet bowl lost water. He said in both instances, there was blockage down line. Once he cleared the blockage, the problems were resolved. Do you think this is purely coincidence, or is he on to something? He couldn't explain it, but said once the blockage was cleared, the toilets were normal again. What do you think? Yes if there is a blockage you won't get complete energy in the flush. Depending on the severity you could get exactly what you experienced. You may be able to clear it with a standard closet auger. If it's further downstream you'll need something longer.
kingsotall
10-28-2008, 07:39 PM
If it's further downstream you'll need something longer.
auger = 5 letters
plumber = 7 letters
Yes if there is a blockage you won't get complete energy in the flush. Depending on the severity you could get exactly what you experienced. You may be able to clear it with a standard closet auger. If it's further downstream you'll need something longer.
Thank you for your time! I'm going to try first a blockage removal product for septic tanks. It's cheaper than hiring an plumber with an auger. What do you think?
Redwood
10-30-2008, 04:27 PM
A plumber works a lot better....
Save your money for the fix that works...
How have you decided that you have a blockage?
Redwood
10-30-2008, 05:24 PM
The new toilet is an American Standard. I really don't think a cracked bowl is the problem...
American Standard? (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4833&highlight=american+standard)
Why am I not surprised.
OMG... Say it isn't so! A defective Am. Std. Toilet?
Who Woulda Thunk? :eek:
A plumber works a lot better....
Save your money for the fix that works...
How have you decided that you have a blockage?
It's only about 5 bucks. Not much to lose. I don't know for sure that I have blockage, but it sounds likely.
Terry
10-31-2008, 01:44 PM
If you have lot's of grease in the line, then something like Bio-Clean works nice.
http://www.easycarts.net/ecarts/terrylove/sewage_ejector.html#Bio-Clean
There are other products too, but this is my favorite.
If you have roots outside in your main line that is backing up your entire plumbing system, then you can use a cutting cable to clear them out.
If someone flushes a toilet in the next room, it can cause the bowl to lose water. This can happen when a surge of water goes up a closet arm, forcing water up in the bowl, and then when it drops down, some of the water goes down the drain. The end result is a loss of water in the bowl.
To determine whether the bowl is really losing water, it would need to be removed from the plumbing system, and then the bowl filled.
If it holds water, then you look to see why.
Is it a toilet being flushed in another room that is draining the bowl?
Is it a blockage?
If it is a blockage, is there a sign of it near the floor, of water coming out below the bowl? No?
Does water come up in the shower or tub?
Southern Man
10-31-2008, 02:34 PM
Thank you for your time! I'm going to try first a blockage removal product for septic tanks. It's cheaper than hiring an plumber with an auger. What do you think? Every house should have a decent closet auger, especially if you have the first generation 1.6 gallon toilets. I went through several cheap ones before I bit the bullet and bought a Rigid for about $20. The shape of the head makes it easy to go around bends by rotating the handle, and if you dry it off with a paper towel it doesn't drip on my way back to the basement to store it. After 5 years it hasn't rusted too badly either.
A plumber works a lot better....
Save your money for the fix that works...
How have you decided that you have a blockage?
I am not sure. I did try the store product, RIT I believe. It didn't work. I will need to call a plumber, unless I could rent or pick up an auger at Home Depot. What do you suggest?
Mikey
12-04-2008, 09:39 AM
I pour water in the bowl, and within an hour or so, the level has dropped. The next morning it is lower still by an inch or two. Within days, it is WAY down. The funny thing is, it does not ever appear to drain completely dry. Does anyone have any ideas here?
If the level falls below the trap, then air flows freely from the DWV system into the bowl, without disturbing the water -- it can't be siphoning or vent problems, or other-toilet problems; look at the cross-section of the trap:
5875
About all that's left is a crack in the bowl somewhere, at the final level of the water. You can see that it's possible to have such a leak draining into the outlet, so you won't get a wet floor. The best way to check is to pull the toilet, fill the bowl with water, and set it on a bucket in the yard. If the water level falls, and it goes into the bucket, you've got a leak.
I replaced the toilet with a new one, and have the same problem with the new one. I am doubtful both have cracked bowls...
Mikey
12-04-2008, 12:05 PM
I replaced the toilet with a new one, and have the same problem with the new one. I am doubtful both have cracked bowls...
Don't suppose you've still got the old one, by any chance?
Do you have a dehumidifier running in the bathroom? The water in a bowl will completely evaporate over a long time, but it takes about 60 days to do so in the average home, in my experience.
Thanks for the thought, but no, I don't have a dehumidifier. The water level in the bowl is lower after just a few hours. Over night it is down considerably. I think think I might have a blockage down line. Would it make sense to buy an auger at Home Depot, if they sell one?
I don't have the old toilet, but no cracks were evident on it before I tossed it.
jadnashua
12-04-2008, 03:48 PM
If someone flushes a toilet somewhere else in the house while you are watching the one in question, or say the washing machine is draining, does the water in that toilet move around a lot? What about on a windy day?
I'm not sure, I haven't tried flushing one toilet while looking at the one in question. I'll try it. If it does swish around, what might that indicate? I suspect your question about windy days has to do with the vent. I've ruled out any vent problems, since the other toilets work fine, and they likely all use the same vent. Also, wind or no wind makes no difference.
Gary Swart
12-08-2008, 10:56 AM
To properly auger a drain, one needs to use a professional auger that will reach clear to the street with a large cutting head. These are not usually available as a rental for good reason. In the hands of a novice, they are extremely dangerous not only to the operator, but to the sewer line and the auger itself. In other words, you have reached the limit for a DIY job, and it's time to call in the pros. Just be sure the company you call does not have rooter or roto in their name.
Thanks Gary. I have essentially came to the same conclusion, time to call in the pros. I take it that companies with roto or rooter in their name are NOT pros... Do you have any suggestions on how to locate a "pro"?
Terry
12-10-2008, 08:50 AM
I'm not sure, I haven't tried flushing one toilet while looking at the one in question. I'll try it.
I have back to back bathrooms upstairs.
When I flush either toilet, it lowers the water in the bowl next door.
While I was replacing one toilet, I looked down the closet flange while my son flushed the other bathroom. The water surged up the drain line, and then went down again. This was causing the water in the bowl to rise, and then when it went down again, to took some of the water with it, thus lowering the water level in the bowl.
So, maybe it would be a good idea, to have a neighbor come over and flush the second toilet while you watch the first one?
At least you could eliminate some possibilities.
Did your situation arise from "nowhere"? I've have 3 toilets in my townhouse condo - 2 upstairs and one on the main floor. The one one the main floor is the problematic one. I've lived there for over 10 years, with never a problem until just this past fall, when I began the water level lowering in the main floor toilet. My "flushing patterns" (if you will) have not changed. I'm still thinking there must be some sort of blockage way down stream, as the problem "just appeared" and I have essentially rules out cracked bowls, venting problems, etc. (see blogs above). Wouldn't that likely be the problem, or am I missing something...? Also, as of just lately, I have begun to notice some minor however evident odor problems in this bathroom - even though I'm making sure the water levels in the toilet tank and the bowl remain well above the trap level and the flushing opening in the tank. I think I just need to hire a plumber at this point, but I am still open to suggestions.... Thanks everyone who has contributed!!
Terry
12-10-2008, 04:54 PM
I have begun to notice some minor however evident odor problems in this bathroom
That could happen with a bad wax seal, or a defective bowl.
Last week, Jamie installed two different Gerber toilets in the powder bath in a home and could not get either of them to work right. The Gerber we had installed upstairs earlier in the year still worked fine.
We went back with a TOTO Ultramax and that worked fine, in the same bathroom.
Now why did two "brand new" Gerber toilets not work right in the same bathroom?
That is very interesting! I had a "handyman" who does has extensive experience in the construction trades install my new toilet. Would you recommend I call him back and pull the new toilet? I could test the bowl for leaks, and we could rule out the wax ring if and when the toilet is re-installed. But I still don't understand what would be causing the water level to drop - the same problem I had with the old toilet.
jadnashua
12-10-2008, 08:25 PM
If you can detect the toilet moving, it was not set properly and DOES need to be reset. A toilet must be shimmed if it doesn't sit with no movement. Movement will break the wax seal. The best procedure is to set it first without the wax to see where you need to shim. Set the shims, then pull it and reinstall with the wax.
Thanks for the good advice.
barbsharon
12-29-2009, 02:10 PM
Just wanted to thank Southern Man for that point about windy days and water level in the bowl. I have been worrying about this all day as this has never happened before (that I can remember) and it affected both toilets, so I knew it couldn't be a crack in both bowls simultaneously. But it has been a very cold and windy day here and that's the answer.
Thanks again!
B.:)