Cost of repair

[jnkpedraza]

Hi,
I was needing some advice. After 2 trips from a plumber in 2 weeks to come out because my toliets/sink/bathtubs were backing up my sink backed up again and they came out to fix the drain. When they ran the snake, they came back with mud and roots. :eek: They ran cameras down the pipes and when they ran it down the sink, the camera just stopped. He said the piping there was gone. Then he ran it down the main line and he said that there are 3 breaks in the cast iron and it needs to be replaced under the slab. They are talking about tunneling down under the house to replace those pipes with PVC.

My question is:
He gave me an estimate of $10,000 to $15,000. Is this a decent/fair estimate for this type of work? The reason I ask is that he turned around and said he would do it outside of the company for $6,000 Cash. I do not want to go that way because I want the work warrented. I am also asking because to get more estimates, it will cost me $ everytime because they have to run cameras to give the estimates. I know nothing about plumbing! :confused: If this is a fair deal, then so be it. I just don't know if I am being taken for a ride.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Kristy

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Getting mud back on a cable is never a good thing. Is the system draining as we speak?

If it is, deal with the clogging until you get a copy of the actual piping inspection by camera. Post the video on this link and one of us will tell you how bad your situation really is.

[jnkpedraza]

Hi,
Thank you for your reply.

Well, I cannot use the sink at all. It was never fixed. I have not used the washer because he said the line from the washer to the main line was good, but the main line has the breaks and that is too much water to be running trough the main pipe. As far as the toilets and shower go, we have been using them and putting the toilet paper in the trash and have been taking really quick showers. I have sent my kids to my in-laws house for the week, so the usage has cut back by at least 1/2.

I will call back the company and ask them for a copy of the camera inspection, I did not know the could provide a copy.

Thank you so much!
Kristy

[jnkpedraza]

I called the company and asked for any type of video inspection tape/pictures. She said that there is only an invoice of what is wrong, they do not tape it unless the customer requests it. :mad: I didn't know to even ask for that. So I have no records, other than the invoice of what is wrong.

[Cass]

They shouuld have asked you when they did it.

Call them back and tell them that they never asked you if you wanted a tape and you want them to do it again at their expense and give you the tape that you would have wanted had they asked. See what they say.

What did they charge you for the camera work?

[jnkpedraza]

He said that since it was not the primary reason they were out there he only charged 167.00. Then he charged me another 150+ dollars to snake the sink, that didn't get repaired because they hit mud and roots. Total cost $344.00. I will call them back and keep you posted.

[jnkpedraza]

PS. Do you think that camera work even have to be done again since we know which pipes have to be replaced?

[Bob NH]

"After 2 trips from a plumber in 2 weeks to come out because my toliets/sink/bathtubs were backing up my sink backed up again and they came out to fix the drain. When they ran the snake, they came back with mud and roots. :eek: They ran cameras down the pipes and when they ran it down the sink, the camera just stopped. He said the piping there was gone. Then he ran it down the main line and he said that there are 3 breaks in the cast iron and it needs to be replaced under the slab. They are talking about tunneling down under the house to replace those pipes with PVC."

"Well, I cannot use the sink at all. It was never fixed. I have not used the washer because he said the line from the washer to the main line was good, but the main line has the breaks and that is too much water to be running trough the main pipe."

I think there are some questions about what the last guy reported "He said the piping there was gone." What does that mean? It doesn't make sense. The sink should have been rodded out to the main drain, or fixed.

"too much water to be running trough the main pipe." I would use the washer and see if the main pipes will take it. See what really happens. What do you have to lose? You may wash some of that mud into the sewer. Are you on sewer or a septic system? If you can get washer discharge through the main drain, then the sink drain can be fixed and you can make your decisions on bigger things in a more rational time frame.

I would get two separate estimates for replacing the pipe if it is indeed broken. I can't imagine trying to sell someone a $10,000 to $15,000 job without showing them the evidence from the camera inspection.

[Lancaster]

I would also let the owner know that his employe is trying to undercut him on moonlighting jobs.Man,that is the worst thing you can do to your boss.

[jnkpedraza]

I am afraid to run the washer because we just had new carpet installed 2 weeks ago. Will homeowners insurance cover the carpet if it is damaged?

We have decided to have another company come out and video the lines. They will be out this afternoon. If they make a video tape of the inspection, how do I post the pictures online?

[chassis]

jnk,

Do you have a husband/boyfriend/brother/cousin/significant other who likes to do projects? I'm serious about this. 2 people with a pick and shovel can probably repair this in several days. 2 days vacation and 2 days on the weekend. When it comes to the critical plumbing part, call the plumber and have him spend 2 hours laying and connecting pipe. The expensive part is the digging and finding the problem. If your "team" does this part, you will save a ton of $$. Digging is not skilled labor. ;) Knowing where to dig is semi-skilled, but most people are smart enough to make a good educated guess on that.

Pay your helpers with pizza, soda and donuts and they will appreciate it. A little $$ may help as well, and will be far cheaper than the plumber quoted you.

Yes, 4 days out of someone's life sounds like alot, but these things can actually be fun. Need to compare the effort to do the job vs. the $10k - $15k you would be shelling out otherwise.

[jnkpedraza]

They are talking about digging 28 yards under the house. We would not even know where to begin with that type of digging. :confused:

[prashster]

If the camera can locate the exact positions of the breaks, then it might be easier to go through the slab in a couple locations rather than tunneling underneath the house.

I know one guy who 'diy'ed a tunneling job just like this, and he said it was the hardest thing he ever had to do. You better be darn sure you don't have a high water table or boulders to contend with.

I'd also be leery of a 'professional' who leads with a cash deal. In my experience, if the 'through-the-company' estimate is an honest one, the cash deal discount won't be more than 5-20%. I don't know why - just found it to be true in my experience.

[jadnashua]

You'd have to see the layout, but it might be possible to reroute things so you only have to chop up part of the slab. You could then just abandon most of the part under the slab. Putting a new one under the slab is what's costing so much (I think).

[chassis]

I'm not saying it's easy, but is it worth $10k - $15k to jnkpedraza?

2 people would make the digging go faster, and as jadnashua noted, some digging/busting could be avoided.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I am afraid to run the washer because we just had new carpet installed 2 weeks ago. Will homeowners insurance cover the carpet if it is damaged?

We have decided to have another company come out and video the lines. They will be out this afternoon. If they make a video tape of the inspection, how do I post the pictures online?


If it is a digital tape it can be uploaded through a USB port on your computer. From there either Photobucket.com or other file upload server will work.

From the info I am getting from what the plumbers are saying to you.......I'm thinking someone wants a bass boat......or small aircraft with your plumbing. That type of work is expensive but I would like to see proof of their statements.

Maybe the plumbing is shot but usually a second or third opinion is worth the expense before spending that much money.

[chassis]

Point me to jnk's, I'm bringing my pick mattock and a bottle of Aquafina!!! Who's with me?!? :p ;)

[master plumber mark]

This SKUMBAG should be turned in to his boss and fired.

I suggest you get about 3 more estimates, and dont let him

back into the house.


When they are dis-honest like that , their is aalso a good chance

he is just lieing about the whole situation anyway........

he probably works on commission for his company and finds things wrong.



so all you are doing with this dis-honest fellow is

makeing a Deal with the DEVIL. and ther is a good possibility

his boss might not be any better at $15,000


get other opinions first.

[Cass]

This company sounds like the national company Roto R***er. A lot of their guys work like that because they pay them so poorly.

I'm with MPM. Turn the guy in and get other estimates.

[master plumber mark]

I had a fellow like him working for me
stealing my customers behind my back in y truck.

found out about it after the fact.....


probably stole a few customers from me but

they are not the ones I really dont want or need anyway....

so they both got what they deserved......

.....each other.....

[Cass]

I have had guys approach me trying to sell me copper off their bosses truck so they could go drink.

[prashster]

Do they have any copper left? Are they still interested in selling it? (just asking...) ;)

[Mike50]

A simple call to your insurance agent will tell you if the carpeting is covered in your homowners policy (it probably is BTW). Photograph it Now.

You are getting some great pro advice here and if that leads you where you can all the ditch digging done by out of work laborers neighborhood teen agers then do it. If a plumber tells them what and where to dig---that sounds like a winner to me.

Personally I would think twice about ratting the guy to his boss.
No one here knows what the situation is. A wrong decision could have consequences for people you don't even know. Avoid it if possible. ;)

[Cass]

Mike50, tell me a situation that makes it O.K. for an employee to steal work from his employer.

[jnkpedraza]

Well, Thank you all for your responses.

You were right! I had 2 people around town refer the same company to me so I gave them a call. They said they were not the most expensive or the cheapest, but they were honest, and that is what I am looking for. They came out and did the camera work from the back of the house, through the main line that runs underneath the house. Then, they went from the top of the house back through the main line.

THERE WERE NO, ZERO, NADA BREAKS IN THE MAIN LINE. He said that the main line was nice, round and solid.

There is, however, a break in the pipe that runs off of the main line to my kitchen sink.
He came back this morning and tried to rotor it out, but the mud is just too thick there.

They are talking about tunneling from the side of the house to repair/replace that line. Total cost: $3,590.00.

I would have probably flipped at first over that estimate, but after being quoted $15,000, It is wonderful news!

Now the situation with Mr. R**ter, Even though this guy tried to rip me off, I don't know if I should report him. I know he will probably loose his job. I just feel sorry for him. When he came to my house, he had his wife and kid in the van the entire 2 hours he was here.

On the other hand, It is people like him who give the company a bad name. He shouldn't be doing this to his boss and I don't want him to rip off other people. What would you do?

[Mike50]

Mike50, tell me a situation that makes it O.K. for an employee to steal work from his employer.


I never said it was OK Cass. But why does she have to do something about it? We don't know anything about these people. I'm not prepared to pass judgement on a man that made a bad decision out of desperation who might be trying to feed a family of five so now he gets fired...

You are also assuming that she could handle all the possible consequences of getting the guy fired.

M.

*BTW the above post was written before I had read the posting above.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Mike50,


The right thing to do is report someone who not only steals from the employer, but the customer as well. It is not the customer's problem that the worker's wife and kid is in the van. So what. It's unprofessional on all levels. If this guy is a bad apple in the whole basket, you don't spoil the good to allow the bad to ruin it for all.

I'd be reporting the guy instantly to make sure no other innocent customers get had by this fool. He gives plumbers like myself a bad name and this thread starter could of been on here complaining that she spent $6000 CASH for what amounts to next to bogus repairs. Another black eye for the profession. Stopping someone like this now can protect other unsuspecting customers from the same. Judging one's actions and not them personally is considered proper.

There will always be thieves amoung us; it is in the best of public awareness and professionalism to report those who take of others.

I don't care if the guy has 9 kids; we condone acts like this just for the sake of children, we set a poor example for human kind when times are tough. The worker was attempting to steal intentionally. Fair natured thinking is okay but $6000 could amount to financial disaster for some. Please don't tell me that you think a crook deserves to prosper by evil ways and the innocent stumble and struggle and it's okay. No

[Dunbar Plumbing]

2 really important things about sites like these:

1. Prevents overspending when members inquire about "questionable" work practices.

2. Allows "other" members to read/educate themselves when dealing with service providers. People still get "had" but those who take the time to educate themselves gain on so many fronts.

[Bob NH]

I would go back to the first company with the new report to secure recovery of all of the costs of the original visit, and the cost of the second inspection that was necessitated by the false report.

The first company is responsible for its employees, and giving a false report to the customer in an attempt to gain more business from the customer is fraud.

[Gary Swart]

Yeah, don't blow the whistle on a wrong doer, just turn away, don't get involved, don't make a wave, let someone else speak out...unless the dirty deed is done to me, then you should do the right thing! :mad:

[Mike50]

Mike50,


The right thing to do is report someone who not only steals from the employer, but the customer as well. It is not the customer's problem that the worker's wife and kid is in the van. So what. It's unprofessional on all levels. If this guy is a bad apple in the whole basket, you don't spoil the good to allow the bad to ruin it for all.

I'd be reporting the guy instantly to make sure no other innocent customers get had by this fool. He gives plumbers like myself a bad name and this thread starter could of been on here complaining that she spent $6000 CASH for what amounts to next to bogus repairs. Another black eye for the profession. Stopping someone like this now can protect other unsuspecting customers from the same. Judging one's actions and not them personally is considered proper.

There will always be thieves amoung us; it is in the best of public awareness and professionalism to report those who take of others.

I don't care if the guy has 9 kids; we condone acts like this just for the sake of children, we set a poor example for human kind when times are tough. The worker was attempting to steal intentionally. Fair natured thinking is okay but $6000 could amount to financial disaster for some. Please don't tell me that you think a crook deserves to prosper by evil ways and the innocent stumble and struggle and it's okay. No


Hey, I'll re-read the thread again. If this is truly a bad dude engaged in Fraud-charging for bogus "repairs"and even price gouging in some cases-He needs to be exposed not only to his employer--I would go even further than that.
BBB, Consumer affairs or even prosecution for provable Fraud.

But...if this is just some guy who whispers in your ear that he will do the work for less on the side--Under normal circumstances I probably wouldn't report him to the employer....thats just me.
I'm not getting him fired.

note: If he worked for my plumber who has become a friend of mine- I would rat him out in a heartbeat. That's different. Any good friend probably would.

[Lakee911]

What an a hole....I think you should report him for trying to rip you off. I'd call his boss, try to recover your fees, and maybe the media if they have any of the 'Eye on your side' or other fraud reporting segments on TV. You can also complain to the BBB.

If he gets fired, he deserves it. He did it to himself. I have no tolerence for any professional who acts unprofessionally to take advantage of the customer.

As for the 'doing it on the side' type of thing, it depends on the situation. Typically if its something big you don't have the warranty or company to back it up, etc. I dunno..different topic.

Glad you got your situation figured out though.


Jason

[Dunbar Plumbing]

He needs to be exposed not only to his employer--I would go even further than that.
BBB, Consumer affairs or even prosecution for provable Fraud.


note: If he worked for my plumber who has become a friend of mine- I would rat him out in a heartbeat. That's different. Any good friend probably would.


Atta Boy! I knew you'd see it that way! I figure a round of beers for everyone including Terry for having this website save the thread poster at least $10,000.00!!!!

http://www.ambrosiasw.com/~andrew/funny/beer_spill.jpg


Sorry folks, I happened to drop a few before I got here. Cheers!

[Bob NH]

If the invoice for your original inspection describes breaks in the main line or other faults that were subsequently shown to be false, then the original company is responsible for the fraudulent report.

The company is responsible for the fraudulent actions of its employee in the course of his employment.

You, as a customer, should be compensated for all of the consequences arising from the fraudulent actions of any employee of the company.

[Cass]

Now that I see he was not only setaling from his employer but trying to rip off a customer it is even more important you notify his employer.

Everyone suffers from people who operate in like him, including his family.

[Mike50]

If the invoice for your original inspection describes breaks in the main line or other faults that were subsequently shown to be false, then the original company is responsible for the fraudulent report.

The company is responsible for the fraudulent actions of its employee in the course of his employment.

You, as a customer, should be compensated for all of the consequences arising from the fraudulent actions of any employee of the company.

If this is the case then you at the very least have considerable leverage
and can use this as a barganing chip to get a big discount on the job should you use the company.

OTOH if you are seriously considering filing criminal fraud charges you will want to cease all communication-written or verbal with him sooner rather than later.
A decision not to be taken lightly obviously.

[master plumber mark]

what gets me pissed off about this whole subject..


is how other emplloyees you have working

for you see what is going on behind your back
and they dont tell you about it either....


wether they are takeing drugs, drinking on the job,

stealing you blind, moonlighting or whatever...

they wont mention a word about it to you........

its like some sort of

honor system among flunkies not to squeal on each other........

perhaps they all can squeal on each other...

--------------------------------------------------------------

But they WILL tell you what they knew about the a--hole

after you have figured it all out yourself and fired the jerk.

------------------------------------------------------------------

That makes me want to fire them too.........and I have. because

in my mind.......


If some DRUNK you got working for you kills someone or

a whole family in your truck..

I am guilty of not running a tight enough ship......and I got to pay.....


and I honestly feel the other people working for me
are just as guilty if they knew what was going on and
did not say something before a tragedy happens.

and they need to go too.

[Mike50]

Rugged you need to knock it off with this shy/coy routine. Say what's on your mind for crissake!

:D

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Rugged you need to knock it off with this shy/coy routine. Say what's on your mind for crissake!

:D


What? I couldn't help that I was drinking a few cold ones before I wrecked the truck.

Trust me, all beer, even the partially empty ones with broken chards of glass, will be consumed. :p

[sjsmithjr]

Speaking of rip-offs, I'm in the process of dealing with a guy that took my elderly in-laws for a ride. My father-in-law figured I was too busy with my own house to relocate/replace his shower diverter, so he hired a guy he found under plumbers in the yellow pages. Later in the day, my father-in-law notices puddles of water behind the shower wall and at the toilet stop so he calls me. It took me about two minutes (I'm slow) to identify two leaks on the hot water side - one at a pvc fitting at the diverter and another where he threaded a female pvc nipple into the existing galvanized. Water was also weeping in around the threads of the black iron nipple he used at the toilet angle stop. And pvc is not a typo; this "plumber" used PVC pipe, not CPVC, to replace both the cold and hot water supply lines. My father-in-law was pretty adamant about getting the guy back out to fix it (all work guarenteed he said), so I empowered him with the knowledge that PVC should be used for cold water, should never be used for hot water, and that if wanted to go with plastic to save a couple of bucks, it needed to be replaced it with CPVC. This guy comes back out, and I'm not kidding, told him that CPVC was for trailers, and that he would never use it in a house. The leaks weren't from their work, so it must be that galvanized pipe he tied into and to fix that would be extra. He would probably have to replace everything. When my father-in-law told him it wasn't leaking before, he was told that it must be where they're standing in the shower. The plumber then left without fixing any of his work.

I had a hard time believing this guy was actually a plumber, so I called the city. Although he doesn't have a license to work within the city limits, he does have a state plumbing license.

I don't know how some people sleep at night.

-Sam

[Bob NH]

There is an Amish community around where my mother lives in rural Michigan. She found that they do good work at a fair price.