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jeff_bathroom
05-14-2006, 04:30 AM
Hi,
I've attached a photo of my proposed drain / vent for the toilet. The
pipes shown are not glued yet. I wanted to be sure this configuration is ok for code and whatnot.
What the photo is showing from top down is the flange, then a 45 degree elbow, then about 24" of 3" pipe connecting to a 3x2 Y to vent. I could not vent behind the toilet due to electrical panel behind the toilet wall, so I'm venting up the wall adjacent and next to the toilet.
Can anyone tell me if this is ok to go with ?

Terry
05-14-2006, 10:53 AM
That would work in Washington State for a toilet vent.

jeff_bathroom
05-14-2006, 11:53 AM
Are you saying it's a bad setup? Can you please
help a little more w/ details? Thanks.

NaumoffPlumbing
05-15-2006, 09:17 AM
Where are you located? Are you getting the job inspected?
It will work. Different areas have stricter codes then some.

Terry, I am a new guy so I hope I am not stepping on your toes. :)

Terry
05-15-2006, 09:41 AM
Not stepping at all.

The reason I even mention codes and location, is inspectors being who they are, and how large this country is, there will always be some differences.

What I see are nice wye fittings and 45 els. It looks nice.
The toilet is one of the few fixtuers that can be vented this way.

jeff_bathroom
05-15-2006, 09:42 AM
Hi Naumoff,
I'm in GA. I really appreciate your response. I'm sort of getting the impression that coming straight off the flange at 45 degrees for several feet then venting is a little peculiar. I've seen pictures similar to this in one of my plumbing books.
I am considering changing this setup so that the drain pipe goes down
vertically from the flange to just below the joists (about 8.5 inches) then doing a 90 degree and heading directly under the 2" vent pipe connecting to it and the 3" drain using a 3x3x2 combo. I suppose that would be more normal
than what I have in the photo. But, I don't know how far below the flange I'm "allowed" to go before the 90 degree turn. I need to be below the joists.
The thing that plumbing books don't talk much about is whether it's ok to run drain pipe at various angles that are not the usual vertical or horizontal with the proper slope per pipe diameter. I know there's issues with fluid speed at different angles, but not much more than that.
Suggestions welcome ! Thanks again... :)

jeff_bathroom
05-17-2006, 05:14 AM
Hi,
reading my various plumbing books related to toilet connections, I usually see a "closet bend or closet flange" which is a 4" flange with a gradual reduction to 3" diameter. However, I have yet to see one of those in Lowes or Home Depot. Instead I see a short 4" flange with an immediate reduction to 3" such that you connect to a 3" pipe from that small flange. I'm assuming that's the preferred method these days over a closet bend. Is that so?
I am still wrestling with this connection because immediately below is a cinderblock wall that is in the way by a little over an inch. What I'd like to do is come off of the flange with an 1/8 bend, then down an inch or so and add another 1/8 bend in the opposite direction to bring back to vertical and get around the cinderblock.
Is that an acceptable/practical/in-code toilet connection ?

hj
05-17-2006, 06:05 AM
The reason the closet bend into the tee is "normal" is that it is the way most plumbers would do it. But that does not make it more "right" than your way. The "right" way for any installation is the one that is best for that particular set of circumstances. Unless the inspector has some particular reason for not liking it, your way is perfectly okay. I might have come straight down from the toilet flange into a Y for the vent before offsetting it to the drain connection, but that does not make it any better than your design. If would just have used fewer fittings.

jeff_bathroom
05-17-2006, 09:28 AM
Thanks hj,
I appeciate your help. I'll tape these together again and post
another photo and see if it looks ok.

jeff_bathroom
05-23-2006, 02:53 PM
Hi,
I've changed the drain/vent config. What say ye ?
Look better ?

Terry
05-23-2006, 04:45 PM
Frankly, I like the old picture better.

The new picture would not fly where I plumb.
The 3x2 santee would need to be replaced with a 3x2 wye or combo fitting.

hj
05-23-2006, 07:43 PM
The system is cleaner that way, just replace the tee with a combination Y-1/8 bend and you should be home free.

jeff_bathroom
05-24-2006, 04:31 AM
Terry,
I thought w/ my old config that the 2 foot long 45 degree drain pipe
was sort of a no-no, which is why I went to this new configuration.
HJ,
I think I know what a Y-1/8 bend is, but I'll need to look it up to be sure.
Not sure why though that the existing T is an issue. I wondered about the sanitary T; but I thought it was more that you had to have a sanitary T for the drain line rather than it being an issue used in a vent. Thought wrong, I guess.
Thanks again guys. I'm almost ready to kick this project into gear.

jeff_bathroom
05-25-2006, 02:03 AM
Is that the piece I have in my first photo ?

hj
05-25-2006, 06:12 AM
That fitting with a street 45 would be equivalent to the combination, just two pieces instead of one.

jeff_bathroom
05-27-2006, 03:04 AM
Hi Terry/HJ,
I think I've done your bidding. How does the Y w/ 45 look now for vent?
I've also attached a photo of where this 3" drain connects
to the main 3" drain running the length of the house. Does that
Y look ok to connect? I had planned on cutting two short pieces on
either end and connecting with those screw-tight rubber connectors.
I originally bought an all rubber Y, but the angle of its Y is not right and
I didn't like how the inside diameter looks smaller to me than regular 3" pipe.

Cass
05-27-2006, 03:20 AM
Looks fine to me.

jeff_bathroom
05-27-2006, 05:52 AM
Thanks Cass.
Is the Y w/ rubber connectors to the main drain ok?

Terry
05-27-2006, 11:07 AM
http://www.terrylove.com/images/abs/proflex.jpg
You will want to go with a metal sleeved coupling.
They call these shielded no-hub couplings.
The metal shielding prevents the pipes from shifting over time.

jeff_bathroom
05-27-2006, 12:35 PM
Thanks Terry;
I'll return the rubber ones w/ metal straps and pick up some of those.
I really appreciate the good advice; thanks again.
More pics coming of addition of utility sink drain and vent.

jeff_bathroom
05-29-2006, 07:50 AM
Hi guys,
photo 5 shows the drain config for the garage utility sink and the
pedestal sink which is on the wall opposite the garage sink and up about
three feet higher. The diagonal pipe is the drain for the pedestal sink.
1. Is it ok to run at a slight angle like that to connect to the util drain line?

Photo 6 shows the 2" drain further down in the photo that I want to connect these two sinks with using a 2" to 1 1/2" sanitary T.
2. Is that ok ?

Photo 7 shows the drain config for the "inside" utility sink.
3. Does that look ok?

Photo 9 shows the vent for that same inside utility sink. I made the 90 degree turn to get the vent more in the middle due to nails that I had to cut through in the first stud. That turn is above the high water mark.
4. That ok too ?

Sorry so many questions at once.

jeff_bathroom
05-30-2006, 03:42 AM
Should I be using a Y w/ 1/8 bend in Photos 5 and 7 instead of
a sanitary T?

jeff_bathroom
05-30-2006, 04:37 AM
I'm going to answer my own question. Those should not be
sanitary Tee's. I didn't realize that a sanitary tee is used only
for horizontal drain connection to vertical pipe. Oh well, at least
I didn't glue yet. I'm getting really good at sawing that pipe though. :D

I haven't seen a combo Y 1/8 bend where the connections are
of different sizes. Only ones I find at HD or Lowes are of same pipe diameter.
Can I use a Y w/ separate 1/8 bend like I did w/ the toilet vent ?
Or is it preferable to use a reducer piece ?

Terry
05-30-2006, 10:14 AM
That fittng where the waste line drops into the horizontal should be a wye or combination fitting.
Basicly a wye and 45.

They have reducing wyes, but if not, it's okay to use the fitting reducers.

Where is the vent for the lav?

That will need to be tied in on the next floor at 6" above the flood level of that fixture.
Most of the time, it would be something like 42" from the floor of the next story.

jeff_bathroom
05-30-2006, 10:43 AM
Hi Terry,
thanks, I'll replace those two sanitary tee's.
You're right; in photo 5, the vent for the garage util sink is not yet installed (in the photo). That vent connects to the lavaratory vent at least 6" above
the high water mark as you suggest. I'll send a photo of that vent config tonight or tomorrow.
Thanks for checking this out...

Terry
05-30-2006, 12:20 PM
The santee is okay for the trap arm on the vertical piping.

jeff_bathroom
05-31-2006, 07:19 AM
Good; I was going to keep those as is. I didn't get a chance to
work on that last night since I had to put in a gfci outlet that had
to be moved due to new location of utility sink. Learned some though;
I had no idea there were line and load wires. Scary huh?
Anyway, now the garage door and sprinkler systems are working again. :)

jadnashua
05-31-2006, 04:39 PM
Not all (but most) gfci outlets have load out lines. Make sure that the input is on the line side, and only things you want to be protected by the gfci on the load side, or a tripped gfci will kill everything downstream as well.

jeff_bathroom
06-04-2006, 03:46 AM
Thanks Jadnashua for the info.
I do plan to put one of the new bathroom's outlets downstream
of that gfci so that it is protected and so I can use a regular-looking
outlet in the bathroom.

jeff_bathroom
06-04-2006, 03:51 AM
Hi,
The length of these 90's just worked out well for the bend I needed.
I know I can't use a vent 90 for drains, but hoped this was ok.

jeff_bathroom
06-04-2006, 03:55 AM
I removed the sanitary T from being on its back.
Please see new config for the garage util sink and bathroom lavatory
sink. Photo S35...3.

And Terry asked about the vent for these. Please see S35...2. Does this
all look ok now?

jeff_bathroom
06-04-2006, 03:57 AM
I replaced the san T that I had used on it's back (no no).
Is this config good now ?

jeff_bathroom
06-04-2006, 04:01 AM
From what I've read, I think the way the trap for the washer
is set up (originally) might not be ok when the inspector gets here.
Doesn't this trap have to be up in the wall rather than below the washer ?
If so, do you all think the inspector will give me grief about it?

jeff_bathroom
06-04-2006, 04:26 AM
Hi,
I posted several questions in separate replies. The
first starts at: "Can long-sweep 90's be used for vent turn? " above,
if anyone has a moment. Thanks.

Terry
06-04-2006, 09:31 AM
The last few pictures posted look good except the last one on the washer drain.
Below the floor of the washer fixture is a no-no.
The standpipe starts getting too long and will siphon.
It's hard to say what the inspector will do.

Long sweeps can be used anywhere.
I never even buy "vent" 90's
They cost more and you can't use them as many places.


I do buy a lot more of the low dollar med 90's for that.
They replace everything except a long sweep.

SteveW
06-04-2006, 10:17 AM
What about the pic on post #32? Doesn't seem right to go up in diameter.

Right or wrong?

jeff_bathroom
06-04-2006, 10:54 AM
You're comment about long sweeps being used everywhere makes
sense because both Lowes and HD seem not to carry many vent elbows
or true vent T's.

I hope the photo in thread 32 is ok. I couldn't find a 3" x 1.5" combo y
if that's what you call it.

Thanks for your help !

jeff_bathroom
06-04-2006, 11:11 AM
I'll be getting to the supply part of this job soon.
I have two existing copper pipes in the new bathroom
that were previously for the old utility sink.
I'm trying to avoid sweating the copper fittings or getting
involved with any of that torch stuff. Not to say I couldn't
do it. But, my plan is to use the Watts Waterpex push on fittings
to connect the existing copper to manifold then to the fixtures.

Question is: to get those old copper supplies cut out, can I use
one of the waterpex fittings on the end of where I cut it. The fitting
is one with a valve. I was hoping to just clean up the cuts w/
some emory cloth and shove those fittings on there w/ the valves
closed. Thing I'm not sure of is since the waterpex fitting has a 1/2"
connection on other side of the valve, is it expected that there must be
a pipe connected to the other end of the fitting. In other words, can that
fitting just end there with the valve closed, or is it expected that a pipe be connected on the other end to provide force to keep the fitting connected on other other side, if you know what I mean?

jeff_bathroom
06-05-2006, 02:37 PM
I've read that you all approve of the push-on pex connectors.
I wondered if my idea above was ok. Just push one on w/ a valve to terminate an existing copper line after cut?

jadnashua
06-05-2006, 02:45 PM
I'd much prefer to solder a cap on the unused lines. PEX pushon connector? There are pex connections you push in, but you have to then add a crimp ring. In fact, usually, you have to use the expander tool to allow the connection to push in first. There are compression connection for pex that use internal stainless steel sleeves to support the tubing when compressed by the connector. Not sure what you have...

jeff_bathroom
06-05-2006, 04:50 PM
Hi Jadnashua,
they're called "Quickconnect" from Watts.
Here's the URL - http://www.wattsreg.com/pro/divisions/quickconnect/literature/literature_catalog.htm
Page 39 - type 3539 stop valve is what I had in mind.
My guess is that most plumbers would think this is goofy since you all
so easily work with copper. I just thought if I could limit the number of methods that I'll be using, e.g. no sweating copper at all; that would be simpler.
I guess it comes down to whether you trust these connectors although I've heard good things about them. Lowes sells them.

jeff_bathroom
06-05-2006, 04:58 PM
Sorry, page 9 above, not 39.
Here's a quicker url - http://www.wattsreg.com/pdf/PL-QuickFit.pdf
After looking at the catalog though, I see what I need is an "End Stop"
on page 8 which is what I was looking for in Lowes, but they didn't have it.

jadnashua
06-05-2006, 05:28 PM
I'd still prefer to just cap it off with a $0.30 cap. I suppose if you didn't have the tools, then it might be cost-effecitive to use one. Note, legs that are capped off with no water flow aren't the best idea...better to tear them out in my opinion.

jeff_bathroom
06-06-2006, 02:41 AM
Thanks for your opinion Jim.
I had planned on cutting the legs back to a stub at a convenient point.
I'm still not sure if I want to use these quickconnects, but they certainly
are tempting. Seems I have three choices:
1. Quickconnect fittings everywhere.
2. Use copper caps in certain places and the rest quickconnects
(requires the torch and copper working tools).
3. Standard pex crimp connections (requires the expensive tools)
and copper caps and connections to pex (requires the torch and copper
working tools).

jeff_bathroom
06-09-2006, 06:03 AM
Hi,
I'm at the point where I need to think about where all these test balloon fittings have to go and have a few questions. I've read some of the other threads and got some info there.
One question that was answered was whether I could put a balloon or some kind of cap on the vent on the roof. I believe from what I read; that's ok. (Any product recommendations for that?). I also gleaned that these balloons are kind of a pain to use. Looks like Terry recommends Clean-Seal Plugs. They're a bit pricy but they look safer and probably easier than just a glued plug or balloon. I realize I have to plug all the fixtures at the stubout. And, the toilet flange has a built in cap that I guess snaps off after the test.
My question is where I place plugs/ballons for the two drain pipes that connect to the main 3" drain running the length of the house. There is an existing 2" drain that serves the washer and what used to be the utility sink. It will now serve the washer, new utility sink (moved to garage nearby), shower and lavatory sink.
The new 3" drain that you've seen photos of earlier will serve the water closet and new laundry utility sink downstream a bit.
I know that I only need to test new connections, so I thought I would put a test T w/ clean-seal on the 2" drain prior to where it already connects to the main 3" running the length of the house. The thing I'm not sure about is where I'm allowed to put the Test T for the new 3" water closet drain pipe that will connect to the main 3" drain. The new 3" will connect using a 3x3 Y using the flexible metal clamps that Terry recommended. Can I install a Test T just prior to connecting the new 3" pipe to that Y and use a clean-seal plug there, or will I need to run a balloon into that T and run downstream a foot or so past the the new Y connection where the metal clamps are located?
btw; I don't know yet what tests they use here; I'm waiting for a call back on that.
I want to thank you all again for your valuable help getting me this far. I really appreciate it.

prashster
06-09-2006, 06:31 AM
Find out what yr inspector requires first b4 theorizing how /where to plug. My inspector skipped a full pressure test and just made me fill the system w/5ft head of water. I added a cleanout 6ft up one vent that served as the water fill point.

I didn't have to use any balloons. I was able to use the wingnut plugs in some places and cemented caps in other places. Make yr stubs long enough so you can cut the caps off.

As for the water supply, I was in yr boat and opted for copper. I looked at Sharkbite quick connects. In the end, there just wasn't enough history for me to feel confident w/ it. I'm not knocking it. But I will say TRY sweating copper b4 you poo-poo it. You can practice easily and it gets exponentially easier as you do a couple. And I gotta say: there are few feelings as satisfying as solder being pulled into a joint.

If yr really trying to save yourself effort (and considerable cost), I'd vote for a cpvc supply before the quick connectors. Using shortcut fittings with copper defeats the major benefit of copper over other supplies, IMHO.

jeff_bathroom
06-09-2006, 06:53 AM
Thanks Prashter,
Knowing the inspection method is a good idea. No sense in wasting
effort if not required.
Regarding stub length and caps; I thought those caps are to be just
knocked out after the test? Does that not work well?
I haven't made a decision about the quick-connects yet. Although I spoke with a co-worker's husband whom is a plumbing supply guy. He also recommened Sharkbite over quick-connects if I am going to go that route.
And, you really got me going on that solder being pulled into a joint experience. Having heard that, I would hate to go through life missing out on that ! :)
Like you, I'm concerned about the lack of history for the push-on connect products. After all, once they're in the wall, they're in the wall. (I'm kind of like Plato sometimes).
Even if I convince myself that I'm comfortable with push-on connectors; if I sell the house, the buyer might not feel that way if the inspector points it out. So, still struggling with the decision, but leaning towards conventional pex crimp connects (expensive tools and all). And, not to forget about the creeping solder experience. ;)
Thanks a bunch for your input !

jeff_bathroom
06-09-2006, 07:44 AM
He said either a air pressure test or mostly they just do a water test
where maybe they fill up to the washing machine drain level.
So, sounds like this water fill test would be easier than an air pressure
test, correct ?
He said I could just put a ball in prior to the 3" connection to the main.
So, very good advice Prashter.

I know I don't have to put a ball in the roof vent now.
So, let's see if I've got this right now:
1. cap off all the fixtures.
2. Put a test T w/ clean-seal plugs on the 3" and 2" pipes just prior to their connection to the main 3" pipe.
and I should be good to go?
How do we drain the water once the test is done?
And, I noted in another thread some danger of flooding if a balloon or cap
pops off. Any recommendations or suggestions about this? Should I use
something more sturdy than glued caps?

jeff_bathroom
06-10-2006, 05:25 AM
Hi, do Clean-Seal plugs have a pressure release valve or something
that would allow water to drain after a water test ?

jeff_bathroom
06-11-2006, 04:27 AM
I read the pdf's on the Cherne site and these test plugs appear to
require their special hand-pump and pressure gauge (correct me if I'm wrong). I guess I'll have to rough it with the test balloons from the rental center. I would like to have used these though.

jeff_bathroom
06-14-2006, 06:43 AM
I contacted the manufacturer and they say that a standard
bicycle pump will suffice, but you still need a pressure gauge.
I asked if ok to use one of the pumps w/ attached gauge and they
said as long as you test that gauge with a standard gauge to be sure
it's accurate.
I think I will use these in this case.

prashster
06-14-2006, 08:45 AM
Man the plugs I used only had the wing nuts as pressure relief valves and were mounted perpendicular to the water flow - not inline like the cleanseals. I basically untwisted it a little at a time at the outlet until I started to hear a trickle. The trickle will grow as the plug is pushed out. This'llgive you time to get out da way before she blows!

jeff_bathroom
06-14-2006, 05:26 PM
Well, I've got one of those to plug up the 2" shower drain; hope it holds.
I'm not as brave as you are though. That sounds way too exciting for me!

I did buy a torch and some copper plugs though. Actually I bought two torches or course, returned the first because I found it was not propane. It was that other gas that's really hot. I'll be dangerous enough with propane.
I think everybody has convinced me to do this job the more difficult but conventional way with pex and regular pex crimp fittings instead of the push on shark-bite or quickconnects. It was really appealing though to be able to avoid both torches and all that expensive crimping stuff. Oh well, I guess I'll be happy when it's done.
Thanks guys !

pyrazole
08-21-2006, 12:58 PM
I've had these Watts quickconnect run in my house for about 6 months, no problems, up to pressure 24/7...except for the first week or so (I admit, they didn't 'feel' right at first). I bought an old house which had holes about every 2 ft in the copper because the house was unoccupied over the winter and the realtor didn't drain the lines.

The BEST thing about these pex runs, is the lack of joints. I ran a manifold from the basement, one for hot, one for cold (red and blue pex, isn't that great?). Each supply has it's own line from the manifold, since pex is pretty cheap. So...only joints at the beginning and end of each run. If get a leak, the possibilities are limited.

Now, I'd say crimped pex is probably better, but if you're not into buying the tools, these quickconnects are a good alternative (at least for 6 months and counting). With the price of copper up where it is now, I estimated I saved about 25% on pex with quickconnects.

jeff_bathroom
03-07-2007, 12:49 PM
Sorry I missed your response back when Pyrazole.
I did end up using two quickconnects for the connections from the 3/4" hot and cold to pex. Otherwise, I bought a combination 1/2 and 3/4" pex crimping tool and used that for the rest of the connections. So far the quickconnects are fine. I figured that if they ever leak, they'll just leak on the dirt beneath the house. I wasn't brave enough to use them inside of finished walls, but maybe they will be fine.

jeff_bathroom
03-07-2007, 12:53 PM
Thanks everybody for your help during the first-time
bathroom install. I attached a photo. It came out nice.

jeff_bathroom
03-07-2007, 01:04 PM
I think somewhere in this thread I asked whether anyone thought the Kohler Devonshire toilet was any good since it's the one I purchased for this new bathroom. I don't remember getting a response, but I did want to tell others how I feel about it.
The one I bought is the less expensive two-piece unit with elongated bowl. I guess they're maybe $225 to $250 or thereabouts. When I first flushed it, it seemed ok for a 1.6 gal unit. But, I took the tank top off and noted that it had a float attached to the chain that prevented it from using more than about 1/2 the water in the tank. I moved that float down to almost the bottom. I suppose I could have just removed it entirely.
In any case, after moving that float down, this toilet flushes extremely well. I mean, it flushes better than my other two, old-style, big-tank toilets.
I'm very pleased with this relatively inexpensive toilet and I think it looks pretty nice too, so I thought I'd pass that along.