View Full Version : Bad flush w/no vent
04-18-2006, 08:58 AM
I brought this problem up here before. Since every one says a toilet won't work without a vent. I will agree. However the toilet does flush sometimes quite well. The floor the toilet sits on is 8" of concrete. I've been there with a jackhammer in the past. There is no way to install a vent without tearing up a lot of this floor which I am unwilling to do. I don't know why this unit was installed this way, but it's what I have to deal with.
I managed to find the 3" pipe leading to the tank about 3 feet from an outside wall 10 feet from the stool. I cut a 1-1/2" round hole in the top and inserted a short piece of PVC pipe into it. This provides the only vent in the entire line.
My question: Which low flow toilet would work the best to not cure but possibly improve this situation. I don't know what brand toilet I have now but it is 3+ gallon flush.
I am going to order one from Terry, but I want to get the best option possible.
Thanks in advance.
I like the Caromas, they have a 4" trapway may help with the no vent problem, but what ever you get I would get a dual flush.
Many of the people who I have sold Caromas to tell me that the 1/2 flush works reguardless for both.
You may find that a 1/2 flush will work all the time or worst case you do 2, 1/2 flushes.
04-18-2006, 04:18 PM
Is this a Toto brand? Since I am a well guy, I'm not real up on toilets (thank God).
This whole installation is a botched job. But I bought the house this way. This is the pool house that is two story, has a bathroom on the lower level where this stool is. The bathroom used to be much smaller until we took out a closet and added a shower which I plumbed into the tank with a different pipe to the tank. It works great. The toilet is the only problem and is only used during partys etc. And I don't have to tell you how that goes with this toilet. They still haven't built a plunger that will do it with just one push.
04-18-2006, 06:27 PM
Try this: get a rear discharge toilet, and then place it slightly farther forward than the existing one, and then your NEW vent can come down from above.
Rear discharge can be either a wall-mount or a floor-mount (rarer animals, these). A wall-mount toilet can take as little as 26 inches total space front to back including the tank. And you can even position the toilet differently, like on a 45 degree angle, or 90 degrees. In case you want to change the layout too.
Caroma is a brand. They are made in Australia.
Google the name Caroma Tasman 270 or Caroma Caravelle 270.
Tasman and Caravelle are about the same but the Tasman has a plastic tank and is less $$$$. Caravelle has a ceramic tank. Both have a 4" trapway but small water spot.
I think Terry carrys them also.
04-19-2006, 06:16 AM
This sounds good guys. So how do I work the vent? I'm not with you on that part. I wouldn't mind getting into the wall behind it if necessary to install one. (Well I would mind, but if that is what it takes, I'll do it)
I'll go have a look at the tank.
04-19-2006, 06:21 AM
Now for the other kink. The bathroom fixtures are all black. Sink, toilet, towel racks, paper hanger etc. What do you think the little woman is going to say when I install a bisquit colored toilet? They don't have them in Black. Just my luck. Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.
04-19-2006, 07:20 AM
Geberit has three different in-wall carrier systems (almost identical) that carry wall-hung toilet bowls made by a dozen other manufacturers.
You'll find one black. Or paint it black.
The Tessera model bowl is Geberit's own, and it must be located directly above the hole in the floor. The other carrier models can be situated wherever you want to, and you direct the drain to the hole in the floor using bends / elbows.
You can also get a floor toilet with a rear discharge, made by various US manufacturers. Some condo buildings have only this type of toilet, since the drains were designed to be in the "common property" space inside extra large wall cavities.
Hope this helps.
04-19-2006, 07:36 AM
What would be involved in making a wall able to hold the toilet and a say 300 lb. guest?
04-19-2006, 10:29 AM
Toillets will siphon without the vent I'm told.
Since you added one ten feet downline, it may be vented anyway.
The vents are normally done within six feet.
Since the toilet works some of the time well, and somtimes not, I would think that a repair of the toilet, or a new one would do just fine.
There are many toilets that would work well for you.
04-19-2006, 10:49 AM
Can you recommend one for me. I have seen so many in your store, that I don't know where to start. Knowing my problem and the way this thing has been acting, can you recommend one that might be the best for the job?
04-19-2006, 11:07 AM
You can't go wrong with the Toto Drake.
and a few others, Caroma, Aquia, Ultramax, Dalton, Gerber Ultraflush (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28088)
04-20-2006, 05:15 AM
...The bathroom used to be much smaller until we took out a closet and added a shower which I plumbed into the tank with a different pipe to the tank. It works great. The toilet is the only problem...
Tell me what tank you mean.
Where is the closest vent to the toilet? Downstream, I presume. How far? What else is connected? Where, how? Please.
Toilets will flush without a vent, and sometimes better without one, but the air in the pipe has to have some way to escape as the water tries to displace it. Without any air outlet, and with a closed system such as a septic tank, most 1.6gpf toilets cannot create the pressure needed to overcome the backpressure. If the hole in the pipe allows the toilet to flush properly, and it should if the only problem is the lack of a vent, then a riser pipe anywhere in the system is all you need. Otherwise, you do not have a vent problem and have to locate the real cause of the non-flushing.
04-20-2006, 06:42 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by what tank David. The vent is downstream about ten feet from the toilet and 20 feet before the septic tank. It is a hole in a 3" pipe with a piece of 1-1/2" pipe sticking up above ground. No restrictions there. I just checked it the other day. The 3" pipe was nearly empty when I checked. I really think the main problem is this old low flow toilet. I think it was bought around the time they became mandatory and hadn't been improved on yet.
My vent should do what you suggested HJ, so I'm going to order a Toto and check for any restrictions when I remove the old one.
I'll let you all know how it goes. I'm going to go spend money in Terry's store.
04-21-2006, 08:45 AM
I called Terry and he doesn't ship because of UPS breaking so many toilets. I can sympathize with him. UPS has broken lots of our items. Mostly in the northeast for some reason (Unions???). We are using DHL now.
Anyway, I called a local supplier that we deal with once in a blue moon. They said at first a Black Toto would be 3 months out. Then he tapped a few keys on his key board and found one in Sarasota. I'll have it in a few days. I hate to tell y'all what I paid for it, since I don't buy from these guys a lot and sort of compete with them as well.
After the install, I'll post back with the results, since I know y'all are dying to hear the outcome.
Go ahead, tell us what you paid, I'm interested
04-22-2006, 06:01 AM
Including around $45.00 freight, right at $400.00. This includes some kind of special toilet seat cover that doesn't slam shut or something like that. Maybe you have heard of it, I sure haven't. I always just let it slam.
I guess if I were a midget, that might be a good idea.
That doesn't seem to bad of a price in order to keep peace in the house :)
04-22-2006, 06:39 AM
I hadn't thought of it that way, but you have a very good point. I don't know if this will renew my marriage of 30 + years, but it sure can't hurt.
05-09-2006, 07:24 AM
Finally found a Toto in black from a local supplier. Installed and tested. It still does not flush like a toilet should, but it is 9 to 10 times better than the old low flow toilet I took off.
I'm sure this system has some problems, like roots from the Hugh oak tree that is next to the 3" line leading to the septic, and the fact that there was no vent installed other than the hole I put in the line outside the building.
So, in conclusion, I am very pleased with the Toto's flushing ability as opposed to the old unit and must say it was well worth the investment.
The only regret was not being able to do business with Terry. He has the same problem with shipping I have. And porcelain breaks so easily.
05-16-2006, 07:46 AM
Here's another update:
The Toto was better but not better enough. So the wife and I spent Mothers day digging up the 3" pipe just outside the wall of the bathroom. Then 40 feet north of that pipe is the tank and we dug up the pipe where it enters the tank. I took a hand level and a tape measure, (an old trick used by surveyors) and discovered the pipe at the tank was 4.5" higher than the pipe at the building. Now I have always heard that certain things do not run uphill.
I think we have solved the mystery. I cut the pipe just outside the building before digging the second hole at the tank to see if the problem was under the building or beyond. Wow, does that Toto flush. Man--- Whooooooosh, the waters gone. It's amazing. And all this time, I thought the bowl was supposed to fill all the way to the top. I'm all done bad mouthing low flow toilets. I don't see how you would ever have to flush this one three times to get the job done.
Now I have to figure out how to fix the problem. Lower the back yard maybe!
raising the yard wouldn't help. You have three options.
1. Lower the septic system.
2. Raise the house.
3. Raise the plumbing system in the house.
You do not want to do option #4, lower the opening into the septic tank, because that could affect the overall operation of the tank.
05-16-2006, 09:01 AM
One more method, since the tank is too high, would be to run the lower plumbing into a basin with a pump.
My brothers last two home in Spokane have done this.
The upper floor goes out by gravity, and he pumps the lower floor.
05-18-2006, 08:26 AM
I like HJ's idea better Terry. Raising the house. I know if I put a pump in, lightning would take it out at least once a year. And, I don't have the stomach to change it out.
Did I ever tell you the story about the two big ladies that brought a sewage pump in my shop set it up on the counter (yes still dripping) and wanted me to; not replace it, but repair it.
After my wife got out of the bathroom and I politely as possible asked the ladies to take their pump back to their truck... well that's enough of that.
Who was it that mentioned the old Camaro on blocks, toilets backed up and not two nickels to rub together? Well, after a lot of digging, we now have a 220 gallon aerator buried and connected to that 3" pipe. It is upside down so as to have an open bottom in very good draining sand. With the little usage this toilet gets, I hope it will last a lifetime. And that Toto still goes Swooooosh.