So how hard is it to install the toilet flange for my new bathroom?

[lithnights]

We are renovating our downstairs area which involves moving our half bath. I am pretty comfortable with most of the plumbing that needs to be done (teeing off and running the supply pipes and installing the waste and vent) as I have done these before and have learned a lot from you all on this forum.

What I'm not sure about is the toilet flange. How hard is this really to do? Is this something I need to call a plumber in to do? I can't imagine what they would charge for that single job.

Thanks,

[jadnashua]

What kind of pipe? Is it in concrete? Do you have access from below? Do you have enough depth to maintain the proper slope?

The physical connection is only one part of it. That part is usually the easiest.

A flange should be installed flat on top of the finished flooring. If it sits too high, many toilets will not fit properly. It should also be centered on (the bolt holes should be) 12" from the FINISHED wall. Depending on the type of toilet, you may need to have the supply line for the water offset further than others, so make sure you know that first.

Can you do it, probably. Need more info to guide you further.

[lithnights]

Where the new bathroom will be is currently a vacant area above an accessible/exposed basement. The current subflooring is tongue and groove and there is a laminated flooring on top (which will be ripped up).

Thus it is basically a blank canvas... part of the reason I thought I could do it.

One further question... where the flange would fall (approx 12" from the finished wall), there is a joist running right through that area (joist is parallel to the tank). How do people handle that? The toilet HAS to go there (will be a small bathroom) so can you just cut and sister the joist?

I think it will be a pretty standard toilet (much like the other I have installed in my home which was a breeze).

Thanks,

[Cass]

For this, I would recomend an estimate from at least 1 plumber.

[hj]

The price does not depend on whether it is a single job or not. It depends on the amount of time it takes, and if it is a very simple job, then you pay the plumber's minimum fee. Cleaning an aerator, unjamming a disposer, or snaking a drain could all cost the same, even though the first two could only take a minute or so to do.

[Bob NH]

"where the flange would fall (approx 12" from the finished wall), there is a joist running right through that area (joist is parallel to the tank). How do people handle that? The toilet HAS to go there (will be a small bathroom) so can you just cut and sister the joist?"

You need to plan where all of the pipes are going to run and plan to restore the structual integrity after you cut the joist. If the joist is fully cut through, the ends of the joist that you cut are usually attached to a header that connects adjacent uncut joists. The uncut joists must be reinforced to carry the extra load, unless they are near the end of the span. If you are making only a small cut, you may be able to just "sister" it or reinforce it. You still may want to attach the weak joist to adjacent joists so it isn't "springy" right under the toilet.

[jadnashua]

Well, 12" is for a normal toilet, you can purchase them that will work with the flange centered both 10 or 14" from the wall as well. It often can cost more, but that may be an alternative to cutting and reinforcing joists. If you support the joist, you can put in two headers to support the cut section. I like the Toto Carlyle, but there are at least some choices.

[lithnights]

For this, I would recomend an estimate from at least 1 plumber.

Cass,
Are you saying that based on my joist situation or just the fact that installing the flange can be a pain in the butt? I'm assuming the former..

[lithnights]

Well, 12" is for a normal toilet, you can purchase them that will work with the flange centered both 10 or 14" from the wall as well. It often can cost more, but that may be an alternative to cutting and reinforcing joists. If you support the joist, you can put in two headers to support the cut section. I like the Toto Carlyle, but there are at least some choices.

So I can get a toilet that has anywhere between a 10 and 14 " distance from flange center to finished wall? I will have to go remeasure the joist location and see if using a different size toilet is a possibility here. That would make life much easier.

Thanks,

[jadnashua]

Yep, although your choices and the price (because there aren't as many of them) may be tougher.

Some of the Toto toilets (generally have good reviews) use an adapter that fits on the flange, then the same toilet fits over the adapter. They make those adapters for 10, 12, and 14". Other toilets must be purchased for the specific rough-in.

[Mikey]

I'd like to test the toilet before setting the tile in a newly-remodeled bathroom on a slab. If I install the flange directly on the slab, and later tile around it and set the toilet on the tile, there'll be an additional 1/2" between the flange and the toilet. Will the wax seal seal OK? It's a Toto Drake toilet.

In the 2nd bath, OTOH, I've got an American Standard toilet on a flange that sits about 1/2" proud of the tile and rocks ever so slightly. I'm pretty sure the wax seal is squashed flat before the toilet seats on the tile. Is there a way to fix this other than the obvious 2 choices (raise the tile, lower the flange), neither of which is attractive?

[lithnights]

OK, I remeasured the distance from where my finished wall is to the point on the floor where the basement joist runs. The measurement is 12 3/4" to center of joist. So the space 12" to 13 1/2" from the wall is on top of some part of the joist.

Thus..

The 12" would sit right on top of the joist and is obviously no good. The toilet's waste pipe assuming 4" diameter, would eat up space between 10" and 14" which is the entire joist.

The 10" toilet's waste pipe would jut up against the joist assuming the pipe is 4" diameter. It would eat up space betwen 8" and 12" which is OK.

The 14" toilet's waste pipe would have to cut into most of the joist assuming the pipe is 4" diameter. It would eat up space between 12" and 16" which is the entire joist.

Thus I'm stuck with a 10"? Do you agree with my analysis here?

Thanks,

[jadnashua]

If you have access, and a 4" pipe is too big, you could replace the vertical with a 3" pipe with no big problems...that would give you a little more leaway.

[jadnashua]

Mikey,
the existing toilet, if it rocks, it is a problem waiting to happen. Lower the flange and that rocking should go away. You probably have some leakage there unless you used something other than a standard wax ring, cause once it starts to rock, the seal is gone. Fix it now...

On the new one you are just installing the tile...I'd just wait until the tile was down...why install the thing twice, unless you need a second toilet in the process. Just wait until the tile is done (notch the tile for the flange screws so you don't have to drill through it), and install the flange when done.

[Mikey]

Lowering the flange means I start with a jackhammer, unless there's some secret pro-plumber method. I had the same problem before I tiled the bathroom (was vinyl flooring), and I hoped the additional tile height would fix things. It's better, but still not right. I used a wax ring with the built-in rubber or plastic funnel-like thing, and there's no sign or smell of leakage, so I'm not panicking, but I want to fix it. Guests are unnerved when they use it. I think it'll be easier to raise the floor, either by setting another layer of ceramc tile under the toilet, or cutting a piece of cementboard to fit. There's probably a commercial product to do this as well, but I haven't seen one yet.

[lithnights]

If you have access, and a 4" pipe is too big, you could replace the vertical with a 3" pipe with no big problems...that would give you a little more leaway.

I do have access, but unfortunately even with a 3" pipe, the 12" and 14" toilets would still be placed over the entire joist or a huge portion of the joist.

[casman]

I think I had the same issue in my 1890 farm house. I had access in that I removed the entire floor in the upstairs bath. The joists were already hacked up pretty bad by the prior owner. I figured anything I did would be better than the way it was. The joists I had that were in the way were already cut off at both ends, and really just sitting on the ceiling. With mine the toilet was near the corner of the room. I basically lifted the joists out of the way completely, created a small boxed section, then sistered alongwith various joist hangers. I had true 2 inch lumber, and ended up getting an extra few inches. Almost forgot, I did go down to 3", and moved toilet a little to swing the waste arm off the joist.

[lithnights]

I think I am going to check out the availability of 10" toilets.
Based on that, I'll make the decision of whether to cut the joist and sister it or not. I may have a structural expert come in and take a look.

[lithnights]

I am back... we actually decided to push the wall out 4" (to make a soffit for ductwork running through the new soffit) so now my flange (using 12" toilet) will NOT fall over a joist.

With that said, I revert back to my original question... how hard is it to install a toilet flange? With everything opened up from underneath like I have it, I just can't see why this would be so difficult. Like I said, I have done full bathrooms before.. just never set a toilet flange. Is it that difficult that I would need to call in a plumber just for that?

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

[Mikey]

Kohler now makes a toilet with a 7 1/2" rough-in, if that's any help.

http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecata...=13&subcategory (http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatalog/detail.jsp?item=10497802&section=2&category=13&subcategory)=

[master plumber mark]

Dont move that wall out 4 inches.....

Just take a chain saw and cut those pesky joysts

right out of the way......


then its clear sailing with a can of glue and some PVC fittings....



just kidding



seriousley


installing a toilet falnge is pretty easy.....

cut a hole in the wood tothe right size and simply screw it


down into place.....


the rest is just the pvc glue, hack saw, and pipe..

[jadnashua]

A flange is pretty simple to install, assuming you are talking pvc or abs. The skills to do a cast iron one are greater along with the tools required.

The flange should sit on top of the finished floor and be fastened firmly through and to it. Leave the vertical pipe long through the floor, cap it, finish the floor around it, leaving enough room to slide the flange over the pipe (if 3" - no gap required if 4" since you can get an internal flange vs an external one for 3"). When ready, cut off the pipe to the proper height so the flange will seat fully and sit flat on the floor, prime things, then cement, then slide it on making sure the toilet bolts are in the proper orientation. You are almost done. Then, screw it down using either stainless steel or brass screws so they don't end up rusted out sometime down the road.

[lithnights]

Kohler now makes a toilet with a 7 1/2" rough-in, if that's any help.

http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecata...=13&subcategory (http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatalog/detail.jsp?item=10497802&section=2&category=13&subcategory)=


Thanks but with the wall out where it will be, the 12" toilet my wife picked out will fit great now

[lithnights]

Thanks all. That gives me the confidence to do it myself. I recall reading so many posts sayin "call a plumber in" when it comes to flanges, but I seem to think that was in reference to dealing with cast iron flanges already in place.

THAT I wouldn't mess with.

[Lakee911]

Mikey,

Can you take out the wobbles with some plastic shims? Plastic funnel do-dad should prevent leaks in your case. (I tried one of those once. Leaked. Then I used the tried-and-true wax ring w/o any problems!)

Jason

[Mikey]

Funny you should mention that -- I just bought some plastic shims yesterday at HD -- first time I'd seen them there. Looks like they'll do the job. Also, I think Terry hit the nail on the head in another forum, where he said that some wax rings with horns get in the way when the flange is a little high. I'm going to go with the shims for now and try a non-horned ring the next time I reset the toilet. (Wife is holding up wallpaper samples in the bathroom now -- a bad sign.)