10" rough

We need two new toilets for our house and both bathrooms call for a toilet with a 10" rough in. What are the best toilets that use 10"?These toilets will both be used frequently by a busy large family and need to be 1.6 gallon.
I'd like something that flushes completely and well on one flush and has the highest water level in the bowl. Help would be appreciated. Thanks

I bought a couple of Toto Vespins from Terry. They can be adapted to a 10" rough in using a different Uni-fit adapter (it comes with a 12 inch). The Vespins and several others have the skirted sides which give a very clean look. There are several Toto's that use the Unifit so can fit a 10 in rough in. Make sure your water supply is at least 6 inches off center to use a skirted model.

The Toto's flush first time every time. I've had mine for three months now and have not had a clog or needed a double flush. They are just excellently designed products, and very easy to install.

I am the new owner of a Toto Carrollton with a 10" adapter, and I think you would be very, very pleased with a Toto.
Do you have a price range?
As mentioned above, you need to make sure the water supply will clear the wider then normal toilet base (>5" off-center I think).

I hope what I've written is clear, and helpful. Kinda long...
Disclaimer: I'm a homeowner, not a plumber.

Toto appears to be the way to go. I am looking for a 10" rough replacement toilet now. I have narrowed my choices considerably to a Toto 10", Colonial White, G-Max flush (Toto's best, I understand) , not too deep (front to back), reasonably compatible style - that gets it down to basically 2 models - the Carlyle and the Vespin. I do still have 'a question or 2' which I've mentioned below, and may post as a separate topic on the board - the only questions I have remaining before a purchase.

What I have learned so far:

Do NOT buy:
- 10" American Standard Cadet, elong. Ours installed 12/99 or so. TERRIBLE toilet. I will never buy AS again! We also have a 12/99 AS Elisse 12" - not much better, but gets less use, so I am in less of a hurry to replace it. Cadet: the current version is almost bottom on the MaP testing list. I could go on and on listing problems with this toilet. I will limit my comments because I will start ranting.
- Kohler makes only one 10" rough, elongated, Welworth. It is very poorly rated, from the MaP to a comment at a web forum to sales people's comments. Sales: I've asked at 3 shops - evasive responses AT BEST.

SANITARY ISSUES plus ROUND VS. ELONGATED (maybe related):
Bowl shape is not always a choice, for 10" esp.
Given human anatomy, well-designed elongated toilets are more sanitary and easier to use for the men than round. (Correct me if I'm wrong, guys.)
I haven't figured out why the elongated AS Cadet is so terrible, especially for women. It may be the contour of the bowl or the position of the water spot. Whatever. In any case, for whatever reason, sorry to be indelicate, but: urine, hitting the shallow water or the porcelain above the water line in the front of the bowl, splashes back up onto the person and/or the underside of the seat. For women, girls, probably for seated men and definitely for my son's friends who apparently cannot aim, this has been a problem. I consider this potentially a serious health issue for females. [I am not a health professional, but from family experience...'nuf said.] It's also disgusting, smelly... and it's ANNOYING to have to clean the underside of the toilet seat several times a day.

>>> QUESTION FOR TOTO OWNERS READING THIS: Especially if you own a 10" rough Toto Carlyle or Vespin, please post whether you are having any splashing problems.
If need be, please ask your wives or whoever cleans the toilets. Or check yourself - clean the underside of the seat (esp the front?) with wet toilet paper - light to dark yellow would indicate a spashing problem.
YOUR INFO, COMMENTS & MODEL NAME or # WOULD BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED - Thank you in advance. (As this is primarily what is holding up my decision, I may even post this as a separate question on the board.)

WATER LEVEL: The only related info I have come across is the size of the water spot. Toto info is on the Spec Sheet page of each model - see "Helpful websites" below. At one point I thought the above-mentioned splashing was related to water level......so I'm not sure why a higher level? Do you think a larger water spot take care of your concern? Some w.spots are quite small. I could guess more, but then I'd be rambling.

DIMENSIONS (HxWxD):
Others have pointed out width issues if the space is narrow. And the water supply. You should also consider the depth. Someone I know put in a new toilet - knees hit the tub. Also remember that people tend to lean forward for balance when they sit down and get up. (Older folks, folks with knee problems, etc., may lean forward more than others.) So, if space is tight, make sure the door will open, large & small people have space to turn around, room to stand at the sink, etc. You get the idea. Sorry, I don't know the magic dimensions needed. For dimensions of Toto toilets, at totousa.com, go to toilets, click on one of the models, then click on "Spec.Sheet" on the right.

COLOR: re: whites, all whites are tinted differently. If your toilet will be near other fixtures or white tile, the difference will be most noticeable. As you probably already know, lighting makes a big difference also. Toto makes 2 whites. Colonial White is a little creamier and appears to closely match AS White and our older unbranded fixtures. Find a shop that has porcelain color samples you can take home. Not every model is avail. in both whites, let alone every color. For me, function is more important than looks, but I can't forget resale value, and I resent having to even consider replacing other fixtures also.

2-PIECE VS 1-PIECE: I keep leaning towards the 1-piece, but despite our aim-impaired male friends and family, our 2-piece Cadet has done very well. (Wow, there is something ok about this toilet!) I think the key to our current 2-piece is that the back of the bowl-base curves up into the tank so that there is no visible, seam that can be aimed at, and the tank sits sufficiently high off the flat surface, so the area stays cleaner and cleans up easier. (Sorry I can't include a diagram here for you.)
>>> VESPIN OWNERS: COMMENTS, PLEASE ?! Does the Vespin collect 'dirt' between the 2 pieces, that is a pain to clean?

HELPFUL WEBSITES:
www.terrylove.com - obviously - excellent. Look for installation advise as well.
www.totousa.com - Consumer->Toilets. Narrow your search by Rough and whatever else. Click on a model for more info, & then "Spec Sheet", "Colors & Finishes", etc for lots of useful info, including water spot size.

There are a few do-it-yourself sites as well. Some good, some not so good.

Good luck. Let us know how your project turns out.

Took another look at our AS Cadet last night. Part of the reason the seam stays so clean is that the lid of the Bemis (?) toilet seat creates a shield so even even a direct aim will not reach the seam.

Cleaning the seat with lid and area is always a pain, of course, but it's always been, esp around the bolts. I'd like to see the top surface of the toilet contoured more so that one could liberally spray or pour cleaning solution/water on the rear edge of the toilet seat and the excess fluid would drip back into the bowl -- but that's another discussion.

The Vespins have a reasonably large water spot, though not near as large as the old 3.5 gal, but large enough, I think. The Sanigloss finish tends to resolve some problems with a small water spot. But that's about the extent of my analytical analysis.

If I had had my druthers, I would have bought a one piece, but I could only get the Sanigloss in the color I wanted in the two piece Vespin. But, I will never own another brand than Toto's.

I have both a Vespin and a Carlyle. I don't notice any performance difference between the two. Don't notice any splash, but I don't flush while sitting. Between the two, I'd probably have bought the Carlyle instead of the Vespin, but I was trying to save a few bucks at the time. I'm not sorry I bought it, but I like the looks a little better of the Carlyle.

Thanks for your comments, Spokaneman & jadnashua!

Our Cadet splashes on flushing, too (towards the end of the flush, I think - I hope! because that would mean relatively clean water), but that's not what I meant. I meant when the urine hits the porcelain or shallow water, it splashes up and at the seat and the person seated. Maybe has to do with the angle of the porcelain in the front or the lack of deeper water to absorb the splash - don't know. (This was never a problem with our old 3.5/5g round toilet.) It's most visible on the underside of the seat at our house.
Maybe neither of you is having this problem with your Totos.....?

If the Carlyle will actually fit (looks like an exact 10" rough, and the baseboard is a full 3/4" thick), that is the one I am partial to for the downstairs 1/2 bath. We won't have to carry it up any stairs. It will get more use and therefore require more frequent cleaning. I still have to compare local prices.

In any case, your comments are helpful. Thank you for taking the time.

Depending on where you live, you might want to check the internet. I bought mine from Terry's internet store and saved a total of $200 on two over the cost to buy locally.

I could have saved a bit more money if I had bought from the Toilet Warehouse in Atlanta, but that was way across country and I needed them more quickly than the motor freight would allow.

If you have them shipped, be sure to have a clear agreement as to freight damage as Terry says there is a high incidence of that.


Toto Vespin II CST474CEFG with SS114 Softclose seat.
This bowl was installed on a 13-1/2" rough-in using the 14" Unifit adapter.
The water shutoff can be as close as 5-1/2" to the left of center, unless it's higher off the floor, and then it can be even closer to center.
This shutoff had been replaced with a new 1/4 turn valve with brass nipple through the wall.
Installation was by James Love of Love Plumbing & Remodel 206-949-5683
In some of the older Seattle homes, the old toilets had been wall mounted tank toilets.
Those typically are 14" rough-in and need a flange repair to use standard closet bolt connections at the flange.
Everything is on the truck for that.
The Vespin comes with a standard 12" adapter or you can order a 10" or 14" adapter depending on your rough-in distance.

Spokaneman - Terry does have good prices. 3000+ miles away, however.
Thanks for the heads up re: internet shopping and freight damage. I will keep it mind for the next project, especially. We are fortunate that we have some places locally for discounted purchases, some significant discounts, some not so much. We will probably go this way this time.

Thanks, everyone, for the help on this project!
I'll still be looking through the forums some more for info on installation, including floor tile issues.
And I will try to remember to post how this one turns out.....but then, assuming I end up with the Toto Carlyle, I think many of you already know.

And then on to the next project....
Anyone know of a good forum on roof work, especially for a slate roof'?

Hi -
Update. We got the Carlyle, installed 10" rough, CEFIONTECT finish. Colonial white looks fine with the nearby American Standard pedestal sink.
The toilet is great!!
- Quick, quiet flush!
No more standing around holding the handle down until it completes a slow flush. The *time* saved on this alone has been remarkable!
Multiple flushes not needed, etc., etc. - which you all already know.
- The biggest challenge our toilet, and our plumbing, has gotten - and the toilet was up to the challenge, thank goodness! : One kid accidentally dropped a piece of paper in the bowl (8.5x11", 20 lb weight). Not wanting to reach into the bowl (and not thinking to fish it out , he decided to flush it down. As it did not want to be flushed down, he decided to 'help' it down with the toilet brush. The paper was quite resistant. It 'needed' so much help that the brush became jammed and the end broke off. One of us had to yank out the broken end - I have blanked out on who now, though I do recall finding the pieces in the toilet. In the end, the paper went down, the brush pieces came out, and I have not noticed any problems with the toilet or the pipes since. (Are we lucky or what!)
- Occasionally leaves a skid mark, which we didn't really have before and which wants time or a brushing to go away, but with so many upsides to this toilet, I can live with this. (If someone has solution, I'll be listening, though.)

I found a site or 2 re: slate rooves (roofs?).

I don't recall if I even mentioned the 'old toilet'. Not wanting to get into a major bathroom renovation now, we had the old toilet modified to take replacement parts. The toilet still uses too much water, but it flushes quickly and quietly and doesn't run incessantly, so we are happy with it, for now.

With the plumber here, we also replaced 2 American Standard kitchen faucets. After only 5 or 6 years, they were acting funny and one developed a serious leak. With space constaints and preferences, we went with the plumber's advise re: manufacturer and got one Delta (should be easily repaired when it needs it) and one Grohe.
I doubt I will ever buy any American Standard product again.

I will check back when we are ready to replace the other 5-6 year old poor-performing American Standard toilet (12" rough)!

Thank you for all your help and advise! I don't know what I would have done without it! Special thanks to Terry for the wealth of information you make available on your website!