how do you make a pressure balancing loop?

i'm installing a 4 spray verticle spa with a moen 253cpm setup, and a 3330 valve. the instructions are at best, vague. i'm actually a auto transmission master tech. home repair is a hobby and a real great joy. this is something i need to get right the first time. i'm concerned with the distances from the valve and other measurements as well as the actual supply line into a loop configuration. anyone have any experience? please help me. i'm way to stubborn to quit on this project.


thanx in advance guys.

mike

pressure balance??

basically what you are trying to do is get
plenty of water spraying on you from all angles
while you and your girlfreind are playing around in the shower..

I would have to see a diagram to see what you are tryng
to accomplish.....usually if you were to divide the main line with a tee
then divide those two branches evenly again, its about as good as it will get...

The easiest solution would be to simply put shower heads in
that have shut off handles on them so you can adjust them
evenly .... but by the time you get them throttled down
just right, you and your girlfreind will probably be through
or you will run out of hot water...right when you are geting in the "groove"

aint life funny that way..

master plumber mark said:

basically what you are trying to do is get
plenty of water spraying on you from all angles
while you and your girlfreind are playing around in the shower..

I would have to see a diagram to see what you are tryng
to accomplish.......

Click to expand...

Mark, if you need a diagram...............your beyond help.

sometimes a diagram helps

yes, I would be much more happy to help
if I could get some idea of what the goal looks like..

It looks like you are talking about as much as 12.5 GPM if you have the 4 showers plus a "head" unit, which will run out your 50 gallon water heater in about 4 minutes.

You will want at least a 3/4" supply and maybe a bigger-than-standard valve.

If I had to do it and wanted to deliver 10 to 12 GPM total to multiple shower heads:
1. Get a 3/4" shower valve; maybe a big tub valve with pressure balancing or thermostatic control.
2. Come out of the valve into the branch of a tee and make a loop of 3/4" connecting both ends of the tee.
3. Connect each of the showers off that loop using 3/4 tees with 1/2" outlets.

The pressure differences in that loop will be small compared to the pressure loss in the shower heads, so you will have close to equal flow from each head.

I think you mean how do you establish equal pressure between all heads... answer is not easily, unless your supply piping is sized big enough.

You want to create your loop to be completely equal in its' branches to the heads, and have this loop act as a header (pipe in a supply header off the valve that creates a loop and returns to itself before the first shower head branch with branches to each head within the loop)to ensure that the first heads in line don't steal all the pressure and send dribbling pressure to the remaining heads. I have a beautiful copper version sparkling in my mind, but I'm not sure if I'm conveying it well to the DIY'er performing the work... enjoy your maximum 5 minute shower!!!

Nothing sucks more than getting the dribbles while your man enjoys the pressure

LOL

thanks for the supporrt

this is 4 small sprays with a shower head. it comes with a balancing valve and it's fully adjustable. here's a picture.thanx for the help guys mike

ok, is this right?

ok. here's what i've come up with after exhaustive research 2 loops, 1 for each side(with 2 sprays each). each loop gets a supply in the middle of the loop. that way neither of the heads gets more supply than the other. seperate loops seems to be the way to go with each loop getting equal supply from a tee eqaully spaced from the valve. sounds ok to me. anyone have a better idea? think of a square, with the heads on the top and bottom surface. then the supply line comes in 1 of the side surfaces right in the middle. this is with the valve in betwwen the loops. looks like a pair of eyeglasses with the bridge being the valve. am i wrong? come on pro's, help me here.

is this right?

Kristi said:

I think you mean how do you establish equal pressure between all heads... answer is not easily, unless your supply piping is sized big enough.

You want to create your loop to be completely equal in its' branches to the heads, and have this loop act as a header (pipe in a supply header off the valve that creates a loop and returns to itself before the first shower head branch with branches to each head within the loop)to ensure that the first heads in line don't steal all the pressure and send dribbling pressure to the remaining heads. I have a beautiful copper version sparkling in my mind, but I'm not sure if I'm conveying it well to the DIY'er performing the work... enjoy your maximum 5 minute shower!!!

Nothing sucks more than getting the dribbles while your man enjoys the pressure

LOL

Click to expand...

please look at my new post/. i think i have it right now and you seem to be the only 1 interested in helping me. ya know, in my field of which i'm a certified master tech. i always try and help others solve prob's i know are a little over thier heads. it's only becasuse they lack experience that they ask seemingly silly questions. explaining it plainly to them almost always at least helps them get started. i just need some direction here, it's not rocket science. i'm an auto transmission rebuilder with a strong understanding of hydralics. i know i'm not dealing with that specifically and i'm also not taking anything away from any tradesman (or woman). but why do some forum participants belittle questions like mine? if after the research and planning i'm still confused i'll hire a pro. no way in hell am i gonna tackle a project in my own home that i dont thoroughly understand and have planned down to the last 1/16 of error. so please take pity on me and give me some direction so i can sleep tonite

This installation is a cause of anxiety for you, obviously you want to do the job right and are looking for the right direction on this forum. I think because you are a little stressed about it, you are overlooking the fact that each of the responses are giving you the answers to your dilemma... that even goes for MPM, you just have to know that he's an old timer pro with plenty of humour to go with his advice (even when he's not trying to be funny he makes me chuckle) - these guys are all a serious pool of information that you can't find anywhere, and they are helping you. It may be hard to see that BECAUSE you're stressed about your project.

You are on the right path, eyeglasses with the valve in the middle. You can take some reassurance in the fact that you have the right valve for the right system, and any extra effort that you put into the installation will help you sleep better at night. There should be some instructions or specs that came with the valve that state: you must have "this size" for the supply, etc, sort of thing. If it's too vague, then contact Moen directly and ask for clarification. If everything checks off the list, then go for it! Get 'er in! If you are still really nervous about the performance, then take that extra effort you're already putting in and try to test the valve/heads before you seal up the wall with tile. It will mean extra work, but should give you that final reassurance you're looking for before you tile up the walls...

that's exactly what i needed kristi!

thanx for the confidence boost. you are right, i'm nervous only because the directions arent complete. they expect a pro to be installing this model and some of the terms and steps are skipped. i appreciate the help and if ever i can answer your vehicle question just let me know how i can send you a private e-mail with a phone number.

thanx
mike

gib7464 said:

please look at my new post/. i think i have it right now and you seem to be the only 1 interested in helping me. ya know, in my field of which i'm a certified master tech. i always try and help others solve prob's i know are a little over thier heads. it's only becasuse they lack experience that they ask seemingly silly questions. explaining it plainly to them almost always at least helps them get started... but why do some forum participants belittle questions like mine?... so please take pity on me and give me some direction so i can sleep tonite

Click to expand...

I can't speak for anyone else here, and I can't help with the tech side of your original question. I would just encourage you to take a deep breath and ride the wave. A little good-natured ribbing is not the end of the world.
The extremely good-hearted folks who post answers here are just trying to help, and as Kristi says, you actually got substantive information from two other posters in addition to her advice.

Also, try to keep things in perspective. You are looking for information on an elective procedure -- plumbing a multi-spray shower. A number of recent threads here have been related to conservation, such as brand new, less than 1.6 gal toilets and use of hot water recirculation loops to avoid wasting water when turning on your shower in the morning. Maybe some folks are concerned about the potential water use of a fancy shower.

Or maybe they're just jealous (like me!)...

i'm laughing hard right now

thanx for the encouragement. i'm was stressing out hard. i agree with you and didnt mean to dog some posters. but when i here "you shouldnt be doing this job" i get defensive quick. i've either built from scratcgh or repaired everything i've ever had too! people bring me the jobs they give up on, including home pc's. so to all who tried to guide me along.....thank you hope i can return the favor.

mike

ps. the laughing part was in reference to the jealousy coment.