I need help choosing new water softener

[stems 2000]

I need a new water softener. Just wondered if anyone could help me out. I want either Kinetico Mach 2060 seriers or whirlpool (LOWE's) .I wonder if you are better to go cheap or pay ALOT more from start. Are the ones you can get from Lowe's ok?? Or are they not worth buying?? Have you heard anything bad about Kinetico?? Thanks for any help

[hj]

What else do you want to know about Kinetico, other than that they are overpriced and overhyped?

[master plumber mark]

Kenectico is not junk but their are not many
that want to wrok on them


STAY away from LOWES and whatever that they sell....
the Whirlpools are junk and are basically throw away units
(after 3-5 years)


If you want something to last a while
check out an Autotrol type or a Fleck

http://www.puritec.com/residential/water/home/autotrol.htm

[Gary Slusser]

The Whirlpool, GE, North Star, Morton Salt and Kenmore softeners are basically all the same. They have interchangeable parts except the GE uses a different motor. That's because they are all built by the same company, Ecowater. Ecowater dealers have the same style control valve but better electronics; meaning more features. The big box store brands last 2-6 years in average without needing service and finding someone to work on them is difficult. And their repair parts prices are fairly high.

Kinetico has some good equipment but it is proprietary, meaning only those dealers can get parts for them. The Kinetico brand is only on their twin tank immediate regenerated models. Some of them are upflow service and require a prefilter because of that and their centuries old water powered control valve and all its teeny tiny gears. That prefilter increases the cost and pressure loss.

Upflow service means there is no backwash being done during regeneration. Kinetico sells their low salt use but doesn't mention the many more regenerations the smaller tanks require. In many cases more regenerations mean more total water and salt use than regular softeners use.

Another thing, the smaller models use packed bed tanks and you get water through both tanks until one tank goes into regeneration, which can be very soon after the last regeneration (every 45 minutes) and then, you don't get the same flow rate from the softener because you only get water out of one of the quite small tanks. That causes much higher SFR (service flow rate) gpm through the resin bed than the resin manufacturer suggests. And when tha thappens. it causes the softener to not be able to remove al the hardness in the water. That's called leakage. Plus, you share water use with the tank that is in regeneration which reduces your water pressure and thereby flow to your fixtures. Some of that applies to all twin tnak softeners.

If you do not have a need for 24/7 softened water, meaning there is no time during the night for a regular softener to regenerate without you using water, then you don't need a twin tank type of softener or their added expense.

If you need a twin tank model, look at the Fleck 9000, 9100 or TwinFlo 100E models and buy over the internet and save maybe $1000 to $2000. And an additional benefit is that when you need service any local dealer can service them.

Otherwise, I suggest a correctly sized softener (http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm) using a Clack WS-1 (http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/clackws-1.htm) control valve. They are the easiest to repair and a DIYer's dream because you can totally rebuild it by changing all of its 4 parts in less than 30 minutes. That's the first time and once you've done it, you can do it in half that time. They have variable reserve and soft water brine refill and inexpensive parts while any local or internet dealer selling Fleck or Autotrol can get parts for it.

[rdtompki]

Three years ago I bought a softener, filter and uv sanitizer from Ohio Pure Water Co. via the internet. The entire equipment setup was less than what some salesmen were asking for overhyped water softeners. First rate service, no sales tax, no shipping. Equipment used Fleck valves and has worked flawlessly. Check them out on the web .

[hj]

My wholesaler's counterman's brother's experience with a "salesman" is probably typical. He purchased a water softener, (wholesale cost $450-$600), for $5,500 installed. No separate hard water to the outside faucet, but they did not charge for installation or sales tax. Any reputable plumber would have done the same job for about $1,000. The only difference would be that the customer would not have a "nationally advertised" brand name on the unit.

[snickram]

What else do you want to know about Kinetico, other than that they are overpriced and overhyped?

Overpriced, possibly?? Overhyped, not at all.. A new Kinetico softener mach 2060 is priced around $2500 to $3000 bucks.. With softeners you tend to get what you pay for.. Get a cheapo from Lowes and it might perform well, but most likely it will crap out after a few years..
I've installed thousands of softeners and specialized in Kinetico.. I've removed older K-60's that were 15 to 30 years old.. Purchase a new Kinetico and you'll get a ten year warranty and the best system on the planet. The softener company I worked for sold Kinetico and the competitors electrics and believe me there is a difference. I love LOVE working on Kinetico's because they are easy. And if Kinetico's are overhyped then why are these used units still selling for so much? Please let me know where I can get a K-60 or older kinetico unit because I'd gladly rebuild it..

[Mike Swearingen]

We recently replaced an old water softener with a $2,200 WaterCare Elan-T water softener and conditioner system that features a charcoal odor-and-taste pre-filter, metered regeneration, etc. that uses "half the water and half the salt".
It has improved our water (crystal clear with no odor or aftertaste) and ice so much that we have stopped buying bottled water for the first time in more than 30 years. I don't know anything about the various system choices, but we're very happy with this one. I'm sure that there are better systems out there for more money, but this one seems to be doing extremely well and worth the price difference over the big box stuff. (We bought it through an area WaterCare dealer that we've dealt with for more than 30 years.)
Mike

[Gary Slusser]

Overpriced, possibly?? Overhyped, not at all.. A new Kinetico softener mach 2060 is priced around $2500 to $3000 bucks..
Yes way overpriced for what they are. They use the same tanks and resins all of us do. I know very well what I pay for the equipment I sell and the only difference in price is for the control valve and the labor and plant costs to build it. And there is no valve that makes up a $2000 to $2500 difference in the retail price of the softener. Now true I sell online, so some of the difference would be used up by overhead for a local dealer comparison but still, Kinetico is higher priced than most independent and franchised dealers like Culligan, Water-Right, Water Care, General Ionics etc. etc.. It's always HYPE that sells the higher priced whatever..

Overhyped... absolutely. Otherwise they couldn't be sold. All the control valve is plastic and water powered with the associated cost of the many small and close tolerance gears to get it to work, it is much less expensive than a other valves with motors and circuit boards yet they cost the consumer much less.


I've installed thousands of softeners and specialized in Kinetico.. I've removed older K-60's that were 15 to 30 years old..
I've sold, installed and serviced many thousands too and I've seen many softeners and filters using Autotrol and Fleck control valves last 15-25 years. Culligan too and most people don't know it but all Culligan valves for their first 45-50 years in business were made by Fleck. But listening to the Kietico company line type salesmen or dealers, you'd think only KINETICO lasts that long. Fact is there are thousands more of the rest than there is of Kinetico valves.


Purchase a new Kinetico and you'll get a ten year warranty and the best system on the planet.
More HYPE!!! and anyone paying that much for a softener SHOULD have a longer warranty (Autotrol, Clack and Fleck is 5 years) BUT, if Kinetico is so good and last so long, why not a LONGER warranty?


I love LOVE working on Kinetico's because they are easy.
Easy maybe to replace a pawl or two but... for the owner NOT! You can't change hardness etc. settings without tearing the valve apart and changing discs etc.!


And if Kinetico's are overhyped then why are these used units still selling for so much? Please let me know where I can get a K-60 or older kinetico unit because I'd gladly rebuild it..
Because people are misinformed by Kinetico sales HYPE and untrue claims about and comparisons to other equipment. An example is Andy Christensen's claims and comparisons.

[Gary Slusser]

In comparing even other twin tank systems such as the Fleck 9000/9100, the Kinetico is even more efficient than those.
That's like saying a Ford pickup is more efficient than a Chevy pickup!

That is a flatly untrue claim with no definition of the type of efficiency but... the usual Kinetico claim is more efficient salt and water use but.... IF both softeners are using the same size tank and the same volume of the same type resin, they will have the same theoretical efficiencies; it does not matter what control valve is used.

Andy and other Kinetico sales people say something like their softener will use like 1.8 lbs and 35 gallons of water to regenerate and that a regeneration can be done every 45 minutes. That is all true. And that is where they stop.

Yet any thinking kinda person should think if not ask... then how often will one regenerate in MY home? AND! how much salt and water will be used over a week?


There are a few things said that are inaccurate about Kinetico but that was some time ago and maybe he has learned a little since then. The point presented about the MACH 2060 have no technical relationship to the points made elsewhere.
Andy, instead of making another unsubstantiated claim, identify them so we can discuss them?


I have no idea what he means by 'centuries old technology' when they were invented in the 70's. Kineticos, when properly set up, assure the owner of less than 1/2 gpg at all times during noraml operation. This is something no single tank softener can state.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
Water power, centuries old technology, in the age of electronics; especially computer technology.

There you go again with another unsubstantiated claim! BTW, how do your Kinetico customers measure a half grain per gallon of hardness!!

Also, I size all my softeners for 0 gpg leakage and have been doing so for years. I send a test kit with each one and I don't hear of the softeners failing to do that, and as you know they are two tank type softeners; what you call "single tank" softeners. BTW, why do you do that, because you don't know what the industry calls them or is it just to be different? Or is it a Kinetico thing? It's like you calling a salt or brine tank a "salt drum".

[master plumber mark]

I agree with Gary on this....

Kinectico is too hard to fool with and actually falls
into the same category as Cullligan.....

you simply cannot get culligan parts around here
the only ones tha t will work on culligan in this area is
culligan.... the culligan man has you at his mercy

I personally have at the very least 50 customers that wont let the Culligan Man back in their home...
they screw you when you buy the unit then they gouge you any time it needs service...

.presently it costs about 117 to get the Culligan man to walk in your door then about another 69 bucks
to actually touch your two year old cullligan unit.

Basically Kinnectico has you at their mercy too

every week you can find about a half a dozen adds in the
local papers for people wanting someone to just take their culligan water softener off their hands for free and Kinnectico units too ....

just make the rest of the payments on the damn thing.....


I dont like a product that is overpriced and you have limited options for people willing to service the unit....down the road..


The CLACK has them all beat.

[chel_in_IL]

I have a used Culligan unit in my house - somehow I jammed a gear which broke the little motor that drives the gears when I tried to manually regenerate the system. I called the local Culligan dealer, and they charged me about $70 for the service call and a new motor. I thought it was pretty reasonable, but YMMV with whatever service company you call for whatever brand water softener you own. (In contrast, my fiance' paid around $250 for another water softener company to repair his softener, and it still didn't work right after that. He ended up repairing it himself after having this company out three times.)

I owned a Kinetico in my last home, which I sold with the house when I moved. Was it worth th $2500? Looking back, it was overpriced even tho it worked fine for the 5 years I was there. I wouldn't purchase another one, just because of the cost, but I'd buy a used one at a good price. ;)

Here's a place that both my brother and a friend have purchased water softeners from, and have had very good luck with them. It's more than just a "name" on a softener, it's the sum of the parts that make it a good system.

http://store.qualitywaterforless.com/reswatsof.html?gclid=CILWm62rmZACFQKhIgodfDk-ow

[Zozzie]

I suggest a softener using a Clack WS-1 control valve.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd298/Zozzie1/homer.gif

[Johnvickib]

I am planning on getting a water softener soon. I live in West Texas (Midland) and the water is terrible, the city of Midland said you can set your water softener for 25 gpg but their water report says it gets between 35-40 gpg on occasion. I am going to make sure I get an good unit with a Fleck valve but can anyone tell me the improvements that I will notice when the change is made from hard water to soft. I know the lines will have to purge for a while but I never hear about the things people notice for the first couple of months, (spots gone or reduced, bath tub ring gone or reduced, softer skin, etc). I would like to surprise my wife and kids and just see what they say when they notice the difference but I would like to hear what others have niticed too. I guess our water is more on the extreme as far as hard water goes.

[Gary Slusser]

Well, actually, just that they are both twin tank designed doesn't mean they work the same way. This indicates that Gary doesn't understand hte basics of twin tank design. The Fleck 9000/9100 uses between 2 and 3 times as much water and regenerates more often under the same size tanks and given the same water use and conditions. The Fleck uses a co-current regeneration which uses more salt. It uses more water in its backwashing stage.
Flatly not true, and here is why.

All cycle positions of a regeneration are adjustable on both the 9000 and 9100 in either the mechanical or SE (electronic) versions.

The length of time of each cycle position (backwash, brine draw, brine refill, rapid rinse and final rinse) is set based on the volume and type of resin being used and the volume of resin dictates the size of the tank used. The DLFC (drain line flow control sized by its gpm) size is dictated by the volume of resin. So it is not the valve that uses water Andy, it is the entire softener.

If I put two softeners using the Clack WS-1 together with the alternating motor control, I can go co or counter current regenerated with soft water refill and regeneration on an immediate or delayed basis getting water through both at the same time.

I can use that setup on tanks from 6" x 18" up to 21" diameter. If I want to I can used packed bed resin beds and set the salt dose in tenths of a lb.. Meaning... that with the same type of resin I can get exactly the same salt efficiency and possibly better water use efficiency than your Kinetico AND cut the cost in half or more plus... the whole softener is DIYer friendly. Your Kinetico is very DIYer UNfriendly, the owner can't change any setting including their hardness without buying and changing parts from only the local dealer but...

Andy, why is a couple lbs of salt more or less per week so important to you?

Also, tell us specifically how the Kinetico works differently than the 9000 or 9100, or 2 Clacks as a twin tank softener.

[speedbump]

I'll side with Gary, HJ, and Master Plumber Mark. Over hyped and over priced.

One thing I will say for Kinetico is that their sales staff is the best around. They can sell these things to little old ladies for 4 times what they are worth. Now that's service.

bob...

[Gary Slusser]

Andy, it appears you didn't quote properly....where did you get this from:
****** Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
Being adjustable doesn't mean they are are adjusted correctly. You can't change the kinetics of what makes a softener work in the way it is designed to work best.****** Andy, I did not say that, you are saying that now.

Andy, as you should know, kinetics don't have anything to do with the control valve, the brand of softener or the resin used in it, kinetics are only a function of the type of resin being used.


Flatly not true, and here is why.

All cycle positions of a regeneration are adjustable on both the 9000 and 9100 in either the mechanical or SE (electronic) versions.


Duh! Your semantics don't change the facts.
What are you calling semantics? Or don't you know how to program a control valve other than Kinetico!


I have never seen anyone put two Clacks together. Buy two valves and a extra motor device to put them into sync, sure I suppose you could. Go ahead. Congratulations on a wise choice. I am sure it'll do the trick.
That's because you know so little about anything other than Kinetico.... BTW, I don't do it, Clack does it for their 1", 1.25, 2.0" and 2.5" control valves. And if I mistakenly thought that everyone should have a twin tank type softener as you do, I'd sell more of them than you do. I'm quoting one now for two 1.25" valves on 2.5 cuft tanks for a 10,000 sqft lodge in Alaska with 10 campground sites, 9 bathrooms, 2 kitchens, 2 laundry areas used by 40 people 24/7 in the May to Sept. season. I may use the twin for carbon filters after chlorination too.


You weren't listening, obviously. Then why are some softeners rated at around 2000 grain/lb and others more than double that? Even you admitted to that.
You only get 2k/lb salt efficiency when the salt dose is set at the maximum of 15 lbs/cuft of resin in the tank.

The salt dose is adjustable and that adjusts the capacity of the softener. You really should know this stuff Andy, being WQA Certified! but it's obvious that you don't!

You simply and mistakenly think I'm wrong, yet every resin manufacturer will tell you I'm right on.

To get 4500 grains/lb, you set the salt dose at roughly 2.0 lbs/cuft of regular mesh resin and the usable capacity will be roughly 10k. The volume of resin will be less if you use fine mesh or SST-60 resins; the capacity will be the same roughly 10k/cuft of resin.


Andy, why is a couple lbs of salt more or less per week so important to you?


Duh, I thought your agrument was efficiency. Are you back stepping?
No, your argument is always about Kinetico being more salt efficient and I'm asking why a couple lbs of salt per week is so important to you Andy. My take on it is that it's part of your and other Kinetico salesmens' sales hype to be able to sell such overpriced softeners like this one sold in North Las Vegas NV for $2250 in late 2005 IIRC; I can look that up if needed. I wonder what they go for today in all but 2008?

It has 6" x 18" tanks filled with less than one half cuft total of fine mesh resin between both tanks, no gravel underbed, IIRC it is upflow service and it's downflow (co current) regenerated with a Kinetico Quad drive control meaning it allows water through both tanks at the same time as long as neither tank is in regeneration. It was installed by the local Kinetico dealer.... I would not have installed it that way!

[speedbump]

Your comments, as usual, are helpful, professional, accurate, pertinent, and without a hint of sniveling, pettiness or pointlessness.

Thank you for the kind words Andy.

I suppose you use those BIG words to fleece money from those little old ladies while your impressing them with your Salesmans Test Kit and your great knowledge of Kinetico Water Softeners.

Keep up the good work.

bob...

[SteveW]

Anyone else happen to notice that this is a rescusitated thread from March 2006?

[Gary Slusser]

Yes, true, I made an error on quoting. My apologies.

Yes, that's why I stated that and you seem to agree with me. Kinetics is not affected by valve. But valve performance, along with other aspects, does affect effeciency.
OK (more dancing on your part here) Andy... but what do you mean by "valve performance, along with other aspects affect efficiency"?

Get specific. Kinetics are a function of the resin and salt dose in lbs. The softener could be a manual regenerated with manual stop valves in the water and drain lines and no control valve; we still have kinetics. Kinetics actually get into SFR of the volume of resin Andy. Maybe you aren't thinking of the SFR of a softener.

I have no idea what you mean by "along with other aspects, so are you thinking that counter current brining has something to with the kinetics of resin or specifically what do you mean?


Just for fun:
How much water for regeneration does a Fleck 9000 with say, 1.5 cuft per tank, treating 35 grain-CH use? How many gallons will it have left for service before the next regen? What salt setting would you use and how many grains per pound would that be? I am sure you know more than me.
Andy, you didn't say what type of resin....

Anyway, I can get the salt efficiency down to whatever figure you want it to be. And I have three choices of resins; regular mesh, fine mesh and SST-60. In this (competitive) example, I could use SST-60 against your fine mesh but... SST-60's increased cost, or fine mesh for that matter, isn't going to be recovered by salt savings for many many years, so I would not suggest this to a prospective customer although I go over it with them so they understand the subject and their choices.

The water used per regeneration is dictated as to how I program the control valve for each of its cycle positions. That depends on how frequently I want to regenerate the resin. More frequent regenerations causes more friction wear on the resin beads and attrition, over once every 7-9 days harms resin too so...

How about I go for every 300 gallons like Kinetico does in many of their softeners? I'll get like 4500 grains/lb and use about 35 gallons of water.

OR... I can go like 900 gals between regenerations and 100 gallons of water and 8.5 lbs of salt with regular mesh (inexpensive) resin; that's 3411 grains/lb.

OR.... at the maximum salt dose of 15lbs/cuft; 22.5 lbs, I get 41500 usable grains (not counting the 3500 grains used for a regeneration), that's 1185 gallons between regenerations and still only use 100 gallons (*35 gpg=3500 grains) of water per regeneration. That's at the 2000 grain/lb efficiency setting.

BTW, that's using the 35 gpg hardness and if it changes, my customer just redoes the math and sets the gallons on the meter accordingly. It takes about 2 minutes. Also, the electric use for the 9x00 1.5 cuft (10" x 54" tanks) softener will be less than $3 per year.

The Kinetico customer can't do that flexibility thingy of changing how long between regenerations OR how many gallons it uses OR to change the CH if the iron or hardness or number in the family changes, unless they go to the local Kinetico dealer and get a new disc or two or get into teh salt tank to change the height of the float, right?

So now a few questions for you... how many times will the Kinetico softener I pictured above have to regenerate for a family of 4 with two teenagers? Or how many gallons between regenerations? How many lbs of salt per regeneration? What is the maximum salt dose in lbs per tank? What is the maximum grains of capacity per tank at the maximum salt dose per tank PER regeneration? What resin is being used? What is the volume of resin in each tank.

BTW, I have that 9x00 softener on my web site for a delivered price anywhere in the lower 48 of less than $1000 AND, it has a constant SFR (service flow rating) per tank of 12 gpm (only one tank allows water through it at a time).

As long as the household's peak demand does not go over 12 gpm, I expect 0 gpg soft water (I do it everyday Andy).

What is the constant SFR gpm of the Kinetico softener pictured above? And that should be with both the regular valve (one tank in service at a time like the 9x00) and the Quad valve with both tanks in service until one regenerates.


Gary says:
"It has 6" x 18" tanks filled with less than one half cuft total of fine mesh resin between both tanks, no gravel underbed, IIRC it is upflow service and it's downflow (co current) regenerated"

You may have made a mistake there. All Kinetico softeners use counter current regeneration. There are no exceptions except for the Hydrus Valve which can go either way...but that is s dofferent story. I am assuming you know what counter-current regeneration is and how it is different than co-current, right? I know that you have made a claim stating that I liad about all Kineticos being counter current. But that's OK if that's what you want to believe.
Well yes I made a mistake in the "(co current)" part but the upflow service and downflow brined parts are correct. Right?

[SteveW]

OK - let me jump in here one more time with the "big picture."

Is anyone else puzzled by why this thread got brought back to life, and by someone with the email name "snickram" and who has not posted before, or since?

Seems like someone is trying to stir the pot.

[Gary Slusser]

Steve, I'm not puzzled and I agree with it probably being pot stirring.


Standard high capacity resin is OK.
There are three types of resin, regular mesh (8 and 10% crosslinked), fine mesh and SST-60 and IIRC, two types of Zeolite.


Thanks for your stats on the Fleck twin, Not sure how you got your info, though.
And therein lies our problem. Frankly IMO you don't respect much of anything I say. That's what is with that as you ask at the bottom of this. I took the time to answer your questions and IMO, you really haven't answered mine, or at least a very important one. It's how much and what type of resin.

As an independent dealer, I have to rely on my self or my suppliers for info. They are not always available when needed so independent dealers learn this stuff. One of the best places to learn is from resin manufacturers. Check any of them and you'll find my figures and how I arrived at them. You once told me the softener in my picture used Sybron C-266 fine mesh resin. I used regular mesh for this.


You gave a couple of different avenues you could take according to salt dosage. Kinetico likewise can be set at different levels. Changes in the number of people using water is rarely a reason to alter valve settings here, though. Why would you want to change something if guests come over or the kids move out?
You are assuming the changes are for guests. They aren't. They are for different scenarios of family size, water quality and most importantly the frequency of regenerations and the length of time between regenerations. Another is that city water changes fairly frequently although I size for the highest hardness in the system.


Two systems could be used: either the 2100s or the 2060s (10" and 8" tanks respectively.
Now I can come up with the volume of resin as long as the tanks aren't packed bed (for others reading this... meaning full of resin with no freeboard).


The 2060 would be set on a disk 5 with a salt efficiency of 4622 gr/lb . The 2100 would be on a disk 4 at 4591 gr/lb.

The 2060 would regenerate every 251 gallons of service flow and use 2.7 lb of salt. The 2100 would do that 425 gallons of service flow at 5.5 lb.
I don't know one of those model numbers from another.... yet the 2100 seems it would be a 1.5 cuft tank. So what dictates what disk you use?


But if you compare your best effeciency with the Fleck twin at 3411 gr/lb and Kineticos lesser choice of 4591 gr/lb that make a 1180 gr for every pound of salt. at 100 lb (two bags) that would be 118000 grains removed difference. (around 74%) 7000 grains equals approximately one pound. So for every two bags of salt that would be 16+ pounds of dissolved rock more removed at the same cost of salt. That sounds pretty signifiacant to me.
Yes I agree but we aren't comparing the same resin are we? I'm using regular mesh, what are you using and what are your figures with regular mesh resin?


But really GARY you have got to get that chip off your shoulder. It doesn't make you appear very professional. You mustn't take things so personally and stoop to name calling. What is that?
I define "professional" as you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours and we'll both go along to get along.

I'm proud that I am not "professional". I've been in sales since 1980 and have never been "professional", and at my age, I have no desire to change. I also don't have a need to change. My customers, 20-40 a month, and untold thousands of forum readers seem to like me for being me. ;)

[speedbump]

SteveW,

I agree with you. There were two statements made by this bogus snickram.


Purchase a new Kinetico and you'll get a ten year warranty and the best system on the planet. I would like to have this warranty explained to me in full. Most of these ten year warranties cover things that would never go bad, such as the resin tank/s.


And if Kinetico's are overhyped then why are these used units still selling for so much? I have never heard of used Kinetico's being for sale. But I can tell you why so many new ones are being sold. It's because of the Media Hype put out by the Franchiser and the crackerjack salesmen they hire. It has nothing to do with quality.

bob...

[Gary Slusser]

Kinetico uses fine mesh resin only in packed bed models. So standard/regular mesh resin was being referred to. Those efficiency ratings used standard resins. Does that help?


The 2060 use 0.7 ft3 and the 2100 uses 1.5 ft3 of resin. I guess I didn't mention my point was an apples-to-apples comparison to level the playing field. Still the grains-per-pound of salt difference was significant.

Absolutely it helps. Thank you. It actually says that we are using the same brand of resin. And if that is the case, then that means that a Kinetico softener and one of mine in the same house on the same water and set up with the same salt dose gets the same grains per lb salt efficiency.

And if I were to measure the gpm of the drain line from yours, and if I used the same DLFC gpm and adjusted my control cycle positions to the same length of minutes run time, my softener would use the same amount of water per regeneration. So we'd have identical water use efficiency too. Especially since both softeners would have the same volume of the same resin in them.

I've been trying to tell you that for like 3 years!

Now I suppose you'll tell me I'm somehow wrong but... find out what resin manufacturer Kinetico uses and go find the manufacturer's spec sheet on that resin and show me where they say I'm wrong. Seriously, please do that.


Gary writes:
"And therein lies our problem. Frankly IMO you don't respect much of anything I say."

I'm sorry, where was the disrespect, Gary? I simply wondered where you got your info on valve capacities and functions, but I accepted it anyway. When it comes to respecting others, maybe a little introspection wouldn't hurt.
It has accumulated over the last 3 years. You accepted my figures because they were higher than Kinetico's but... you don't really believe me. Yes my figures were higher but, do they mean much to someone comparing buying a Kinetcio for $2000-4500 and my softener for <$1000? No they don't. You guys should give a lifetime warranty on the whole unit for what you charge people for it! Especially since the only difference is the non electric blow molded plastic Kinetico control valve! All the other components are the same I and most other dealers use/sell; for a lot less money.

I can tell you I sell at least one softener a week, and it's usually 2-3, that the prospective customer says they had Kinetico out BUT MY GOD! for that price! and the salesmen didn't know a thing about my questions about who makes your resin? Tanks? And the negative things about all other types of softeners!! WOW. So I did some research and found you Gary...


I gave you certified information from two third-party, independent testing organizations (NSF, WQA) and simply can't find those details on Fleck (or Clack) valves from those or any other non-bias sources. Naturally, if I said these results were from Kinetico HQs, then even I might consider them tweaked to look positive. Right?
You are playing with me now right? You can't not know that Autotrol, Clack, Erie and Fleck don't make softeners... You know they make control valves. See to me, that is disrespectful when we are supposed to be having an honest comparison. You've fallen back into your sales hype stuff.


The 2060 use 0.7 ft3 and the 2100 uses 1.5 ft3 of resin.
What is the constant service flow rating of .7 and 1.5 cuft of that standard/regular mesh resin?


We have charts that are used to determine optimum settings. Iron concentration can alter salt dosage to be more effective.
All the resin manufacturers have charts too, they are called spec sheets. And they probably use conservative figures but if I was willing to set the salt dose as low as you guys, I'd get the same capacity and salt efficiency from the same brand and volume of the same resin.... You don't believe that.

That's the bottom line to the people that buy from me.

You and others call me unprofessional because I demystify this stuff and tell people these things about other brands and how to fix their softeners rather than being dependent on a local dealer. I don't turn a blind eye and keep my mouth shut. I've been this way all my life since Cub Scouts in the mid 1950s and I'm quite proud of it. I don't take advantage of peoples' ignorance, I teach them how to help themselves when they need water treatment equipment or need to fix it.

Question Andy, why do you post on forums?


Gary writes: "I define "professional" as you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours and we'll both go along to get along."....
Another question Andy, in simple terms no flowery speech as you're prone to, what is your definition of "professional"; limit it to you and I, softener salesmen?

[SteveW]

SteveW,

I agree with you. There were two statements made by this bogus snickram.

I would like to have this warranty explained to me in full. Most of these ten year warranties cover things that would never go bad, such as the resin tank/s.

I have never heard of used Kinetico's being for sale. But I can tell you why so many new ones are being sold. It's because of the Media Hype put out by the Franchiser and the crackerjack salesmen they hire. It has nothing to do with quality.

bob...


Thanks for the support, Bob!

This whole transaction reminds me of one of my favorite books - called "Games People Play" and written by a psychiatrist named Eric Berne (if I recall correctly). In it, he describes a number of common patterns of behaviors humans have. One "game" is called "Let's You and Him Fight" and the idea is that the instigator of this somehow maneuvers two OTHER people to duke it out between themselves, and then stands back and watches the whole thing.

I don't have a clue who "snickram" is or whether he/she really is clever enough to have set up a "game" like this, but that's effectively what's happened to this thread.

[Gary Slusser]

They are called trolls; he may have been trolling, as in fishing. But maybe not too. He may have simply found the thread in a search and replied honestly but in the defending Kinetico mode and Andy just loves that! and jumped on the opportunity. Another possibility is that they know each other.

It will be interesting to see how Andy answers my question of why he posts.

[Gary Slusser]

Oh but I do understand co and counter current brining and basically, the heal of non regenerated resin is pushed up to the top of the counter current brined bed and it's pushed down to the bottom of the co current regenerated bed.

That reduces the potential for hardness leakage in the upflow counter current brined softener but in reality, that's about the only difference. Basically the regenerated capacity per lb of salt used in the same volume of the same type of resin is very close with either co or counter current brining. Any salt savings is minimal OR many other softeners would be suing upflow counter current regeneration.

And now you've left but you didn't answer my other question! Why did I think you would do that?

Why do you post in DIYer forums when you always are telling guys to buy local and rely on "professional" dealers?

Which reminds me of my other question you didn't answer, what is your definition of "professional" in regards to softener salesmen like us?

[Exodus]

OK - not sure how this forum works, but I've spent the past hour or so reading comments about how to choose a water softener.

In fact - I am the "little old lady" the salesmen are referencing and with my fixed income in retirement community need to be careful.

#1 - I do not like softened water . . . neither the taste or the slickness, but also don't want my new soaking tub to be ruined w/rust stains or clothing to be stained in washer.

#2 - from pictures in some of your replies, it seems my space may be limited and I believe there was a Culligan unit in my place previously.

My questions are as follows:

Can the customer ever regulate the amount of hardness in the water?

Do you HAVE to have extra faucets in order NOT to have soft water to drink?

Hopefully, someone will see this and answer before too long as I will be moving in soon.

No offense, but I prefer answers from folks who are experienced in installation & repair of water softeners rather than those with conflict of interest (salespeople)

PS - I got this link from the Indianapolis Star

[SteveW]

I am not a pro or sales person - just a fairly handy homeowner that's installed 3 of his own Kenmore water softeners over the years and has learned how to maintain them.

The pros will warn you against some brands, like Kenmore, GE, etc - and these are the ones you most commonly see in retail stores. For someone who does not do their own maintenance, I agree with this - were I in your shoes, I would go with a Clack unit such as Gary S recommends. These can be bought through the internet,including from Gary himself (I don't know him personally, but I would buy from him if I were in the market right now), but I don't know if you also could find someone locally who sells and installs them. They have a reputation for reliability and easy "fixability."

Yes, you can regulate how "soft" the water is - some folks like to keep it just a little "hard" to avoid the slippery feeling. (I personally like that feeling - it tells me my skin is clean, not clogged with soap/hard water deposits - but that's just me.)

I personally have a hard-water line plumbed to my refrigerator, since I too don't really like the taste of machine-softened water. So - most of the water we drink plain comes from the fridge dispenser and is hard - but we use soft water out of the kitchen faucet for cooking and making coffee (and this way the coffeemaker doesn't get all limed up.)

[Exodus]

Yes, you can regulate how "soft" the water is - some folks like to keep it just a little "hard" to avoid the slippery feeling. (I personally like that feeling - it tells me my skin is clean, not clogged with soap/hard water deposits - but that's just me.)

I personally have a hard-water line plumbed to my refrigerator, since I too don't really like the taste of machine-softened water. So - most of the water we drink plain comes from the fridge dispenser and is hard - but we use soft water out of the kitchen faucet for cooking and making coffee (and this way the coffeemaker doesn't get all limed up.)

Funny, isn't it how we're programmed somehow re: personal taste - to me, that slippery, slimy feeling does not feel nearly as clean as when I hear my hair squeak because it's no longer coated with shampoo and/or a slick substance I already chose the fridge without water - so that's not an option :(

Anyway - thanks so much for your succinct, readable answer, I was getting really bogged down trying to digest the technical jargon. I did try to take notes on brands various posters recommended, but it became almost impossible when the whole thing seemed to turn so competitive! I very much agreed with whoever quoted Eric Berne - "lets you & him fight" - I felt like writing - OK, guys . . . play nice!

One other question:

It seems like (and I'm not there to measure) that the allocated space in the utility closet is only a little over 2' square - does that seem like a large enough place for both brine & resin tanks?!? Is it possible when people subscribe to a service like Culligan, their equipment takes less space?

Thought I was through asking questions, but it seems that the more thought I give this, the more doubtful I become. Am certainly open to opinions of others - just keep it simple, please - any number can play :D

[Ohio]

I agree with rdtompki, I purchased a Clack WS 1 from Ohio Pure Water Co and was pleased with their service. I'd not known much about the voodoo water softer machine in my basement but now I know just enough to be dangerous. I installed it myself and other than programing the computer brain, it was easy. Do it youself and save bigtime.

[Exodus]

I agree with rdtompki, I purchased a Clack WS 1 from Ohio Pure Water Co and was pleased with their service. I'd not known much about the voodoo water softer machine in my basement but now I know just enough to be dangerous. I installed it myself and other than programing the computer brain, it was easy. Do it youself and save bigtime.


Does anyone on this list know ANYTHING about Aqua Systems - they're in the midwest and seem to be growing fast. Their softener has an easily detached control valve that can be taken to their facility and exchanged for "less than the price of the first hour of a service call"!?! You do not have to use their salt to stay under warranty but they offer drive-thru service if you do. Prices seem comparable and they have won Angie's List awards. I'm interested in any input since I need to make a decision quickly here - rust is invading ! ! !

[Gary Slusser]

I've looked at their site awhile back and know that you'll pay a premium price for something you may never use.

I take it you don't want to be a DIYer, you want to be tied to a local dealer right?

Ohio, do you mean they told what to program your control to? What problems did you have programming a Clack?

[Exodus]

I've looked at their site awhile back and know that you'll pay a premium price for something you may never use.

I take it you don't want to be a DIYer, you want to be tied to a local dealer right?

Ohio, do you mean they told what to program your control to? What problems did you have programming a Clack?


You're right - I'm retired & disabled and can't DIY. I'm hoping I "never use" their services again, but on the other hand . . . it means I've outlasted their warranty and that's not a bad thing! Thanks for your input!

[Ohio]

Hi Gary, I knew nothing about softeners so this was all new to me. A lot of research later and I did it myself. Still, I found the set up of the valve sort of confusing. I called Ohio Pure Water Co and they walked me through the parts I didnt understand, such as setting the total capacity (64,000) and lbs. of salt (20) per regineration. My unit came pre-programed for 30,000 and 1 cubic foot of resin, and it showed only 900 gal until next regen. I knew something was wrong as I sized it at 64 and 2 cubic foot of resin. Now after a regen, with the correct settings, I get about 2000 gals. and it regen's about every 8 days. My hardness is 28. Now Im thinking of setting it so the brine tank fills 2 hrs. befor it regenerates. This is interesting and I thank everyone for the help.

[Gary Slusser]

You're right - I'm retired & disabled and can't DIY. I'm hoping I "never use" their services again, but on the other hand . . . it means I've outlasted their warranty and that's not a bad thing! Thanks for your input!
Now recall what you said about me... I've just read you other posts, I am in sales; but I have sold, installed and serviced all types of equipment for 21 years now, so who should know this stuff better? ;)

You will do better if you bought from me or someone else online and hired a plumber to install it. Their control valve is not industry standard, it is proprietary and... not being a DIYer, I doubt you can take their control valve off the resin tank and take it in for service so, you'll be totally dependent on them for all service. That's not where most folks want to be.

[Gary Slusser]

Ohio, what are your settings exactly; capacity, salt dose lbs and all the rest of the programming?

What cuft size do you have; 1 or 2?

How many people in your family and any iron in your water?

[Ohio]

Clack WS1 Electronic 1 Inch Meter On Demand Control Valve Water Softener 64000 Grain Capacity, 2.0 cubic feet of high capacity resin. I have fill set to PRe (fill brine tank 2 hrs before regen), program is P1, capacity is 64x1000, regen is 20 lbs, next setting lists AURo, and then normal (as you cycle thru the display settings). I have 4 persons in home with an avg of 300 gal use per day. Our water is very hard with 28 gpg, but no notable iron content. Everything sound ok?

[Gary Slusser]

You have left out a lot of the programming but what you have shown is mostly wrong. The Auto and Pre is right but the rest is not.

I get about one of their customers a week that contacts me for programming. I average one from other competitors about every 10-12 days. Ohio Pure Water and Quality Water Treatment are the two most common customer asking me for help with programming. Those and other of their customers should have bought from me. ;)

Call Ohio Pure Water and insist they give you new programming and confirm it for their version of a 2.0 cyft softener. Then post it and I'll give you my ideas. That includes both the dealer side and the consumer side. You might also make sure they are using the right DLFC for their size tank and type of resin and tell me what they are using.

[Ohio]

Well, thank you for your advice. I did check with them and they stated the settings are correct. They also said the Hi Capacity Softening Resin Specs can be found at http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/files/nelsencation.pdf

The DLFC for the 64000 grain model (2.o cu/ft) ..... is 3.5 gpm. What does DLFC stand for?

I have not had the water tested yet but I can fell a diffrence and our dishes are spot free now. As I mentioned before, with the above settings (only regen once - new install) the display told me it will soften aprox 2000 gal. before the next regen (last was 8 days between regen). Im sorry I didn't give detailed info on all settings, as you can see I am still learning. O, I forgot to tell you I am on city water http://www.cityofbellbrook.org/files%20for%20down/newsletters/2006%20Water%20Quality%20Report.pdf

And, I read your SFR and salt dose page and boy am I stupid, I don't get it. I have read it 2 times. I think I am using too much salt but not sure. I will try again, and thank you for your help.

Thank you.

[Gary Slusser]

I did check with them and they stated the settings are correct.
That's the same they tell everyone and proves they don't know what they are doing. The .pdf file is not a spec sheet, it's at best a definition or description.

I guess they didn't help you with the original sizing. I don't like people buying off my web site unless they have talked to me and I sized it for them. And that's why I only have 1 and 1.5 cuft sizes on my web site.

You can not get 60k with only 20 lbs of salt in a 2.0 cuft. Call me when you can be at the softener and I'll go over all the programming with you, and you can help me out by telling me why you didn't buy from me. ;)

[Ohio]

Deal ! Thanks.