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View Full Version : Replace wall hung with rear discharge?



Joerg
02-25-2006, 05:50 PM
Hello All,

This one was buried in another post so let me just ask that one question: Is it ok to install a rear-discharge toilet such as the AS Yorkville in place of the old wall hung toilet?

The reason I ask is that I'd rather have the stability of a toilet that sits on the ground. Like usual there is a 4" nipple in that wall hung position, not a flange.

Regards, Joerg.

SuperSewist
02-25-2006, 06:37 PM
On a similar subject, how about the other way 'round? Can a floor-mount be converted to a wall hung? I just hate cleaning around toilets. Too many nooks and cranies, and all the little floor spaces behind & around. My sink is wall hung, and that would make a nice smooth floor all across. The Kohler "Hat Box" (http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatalog/newproducts_detail.jsp?section=2&aid=1126632993817) looked real sweet until I saw the price tag.

I was concerned about stability and flush quality on a wall mount. There don't seem to be as many styles or options. As for the plumbing part, I've got a sawzall and a new ratcheting pipe cutter that I'm just ITCHING to use on somethin'. And since I was just cleaning the bath tiled bath enclosure anyhow, it's not a problem to rip up the floor and yank out a chunk of wall while I'm at it. (those of you who know what I mean - you know who you are - - - laugh all you want, you've been there)

By the way, how DO I get a welded pvc toilet flange out/apart? I need to pull the floor out from under it.

~CH!~

Joerg
02-26-2006, 01:54 PM
Hello SuperSewist,

Why would you want to do that? Wall mounts are a pain, are very expensive and can eventually sag. Look under those that you find and count how many owners had to place a chunk of wood underneath to hold it up. Other than maybe in a building with steel/concrete walls my humble opinion is that this whole concept of wall hung toilets is just a problem (leaks etc.) waiting to happen. And when they do leak in a wood frame house chances are you won't notice until the termite inspector says "uh-oh!".

If you absolutely have to, make sure the venting is done up to code. That isn't very easy in tight spots.

Regards, Joerg.

SuperSewist
02-26-2006, 04:04 PM
Maybe not what I wanted to hear, Joerg, but sho'nuf what I needed to know. I like the look of an unbroken floor, but couldn't wrap my brain around how a toilet on a wall was going to be a sturdy and secure seating device. Especially when there's all that reading to be done :rolleyes:

That's why you're wanting to switch from wall to floor, eh? How do the commercial installations do it? Is it the concrete walls?

So, I guess it's deal with the cleaning of all the little crevices :( or fess up 3K for the "hat box" :eek:

Still need to get that pvc flange out, how is it done? (the plywood underlayment was Nasty, especially around the tub - out it came. All that's left is the couple sqft around the flange.)

Joerg
02-26-2006, 05:10 PM
It's best to post a photo so the pros can weigh in. Must be very small file size or it won't upload here. Sure it's PVC and not ABS? If you tear out the plywood I guess you'll need a new flange anyway. Just make sure you don't glue ABS and PVC together, as far as I know that is not a good thing to do. Personally I don't have much faith in 'transfer adhesives' for such jobs.

I don't know about commercial applications but have seen some where the carrier was held by concrete anchors and not those teeny screws through the studs. In Europe things were anchored in the walls but their houses are a lot more sturdy than ours. They do not use wood frame construction and typically don't trust that method. I don't either but what can we do?

One problem I am seeing with the A/S Yorkville is the size. It's a whopping 32" long.

All the best, Joerg.

jadnashua
02-26-2006, 06:53 PM
A toilet like the Toto Vespin or Carlyle have a skirt and don't have nooks and crannies to get dirty. More so on the Carlyle as it is a one-piece whereas the Vespin is a two piece toilet.

Joerg
02-26-2006, 07:02 PM
Hello Jim,

I guess she is more concerned about having to get behind it for cleaning. However, our house has those dreaded wall-hung toilets in every bathroom and it isn't much easier with those either. In the back there is barely enough clearance to get underneath with any kind of scrubber.

This is one of the reasons to try a Yorkville. It butts up to the wall, there is nothing to get behind or underneath. Now if these things just wouldn't be so freaking long.

Regards, Joerg.

SuperSewist
02-26-2006, 10:09 PM
Ah-Ha! Now we're getting somewhere. Yes the cleaning would be the main reason to even think about switching. Toilet fronts are all nice & smooth and then you get to the back and the porcelain follows every swish of the discharge path. Yuck. Jim, your note made me go look at some spec sheets, and I see they are barely 3" off the floor. I get your point about that not being much benefit in the cleaning dept. Certainly not enought to justify the price & the re-plumb. Although this wall hung toilet site in the UK (http://www.bath1959.com/productResultsBySub?sub_category_id=31) has some :cool: suites. The current toilet is still spiffy so I may just put it back. But then again, that pdf about testing toilets for moving 500g+ of waste made considering a new one real appealing. Good thing I've a second bathroom :D This may take awhile.

Now then here is that pic of the flange that needs removed. Isn't that a sweet bit of layering: roll roofing, 3/4 plywood, linoluem, adhesive tile squares, paint, vinyl. Yes, pvc. I did that when I layed the vinyl 10 yrs ago - a byproduct of replumbing the old waste chute which was exposed under the ceiling in the bath below. It never occured to me it might have to be removed someday. But welding is required of a flange, yes?

Joerg, how about this 40-3862 rear discharge (http://www.deabath.com/IFO/Ifocera/ifocera.htm) It is only about 26". I think there's some trick with the connection, I looked over the spec sheet but could quite grasp it. or, this kohler unit at 27.5" (http://www.needplumbingsupplies.com/Kohler-Toilets.asp?id=4850) What are your requirements for size and is there some reason the wall nipple wouldn't connect up correctly? or is that the question? Do you have to mount a flange onto the nipple?

Thanks for the great tips throughout the forum, between here & the tile guys, my eyes have those cartoon swirlies in them.

hj
02-27-2006, 06:43 AM
A floor mount cannot just be "converted" to a wall mount because it does not have the necessary mounting fitting in the wall to support a wall hung. And a wall hung may not necessarily be able to be converted to a floor mount, unless the drain opening in the wall is at the exact height needed for the floor mount. The odds are that it would not be. A properly installed wall mount toilet is definitely better than a floor mount, but the key thing is "properly" so it does not sag and leak.

SuperSewist
02-27-2006, 08:31 AM
hj, couldn't either of those things be adjusted (adding proper wall support or moving the hole in the wall) if the person had enough time, money & energy to bother with it? The important thing would be to know what's required and then decide if the change is worth it, yes?


A properly installed wall mount toilet is definitely better than a floor mount
why?


-~-Carol

Joerg
02-27-2006, 02:02 PM
Hello Carol,

Thanks for the hint but the Ifo rear discharge requires 7/1/2" pipe height. That is non standard, 4" is the standard and so I just ordered a Yorkville. Kohler has one as well, Barrington or something like that. But I had some not so positive experiences in the past. After some time they dropped a product line and then spare parts became impossible to obtain. When our Kohler wall-mount tank broke they also could not deliver a replacement which is why this whole dilemma started. Same with the faucets we have. I am not going to drive myself into that corner again.

Now I am going to have to tile since the pros that did the old tile messed up the part under the old wall mount toilet. But what can one do? Roll up the sleeves and wield the jackhammer again.

Regards, Joerg.

hj
02-28-2006, 06:33 AM
hj, couldn't either of those things be adjusted (adding proper wall support or moving the hole in the wall) if the person had enough time, money & energy to bother with it? The important thing would be to know what's required and then decide if the change is worth it, yes?

Anything can be done given enough time and money. But as a practical matter, not all are economically justified. In this case, the original assumption was that they had one or the other, but now it appears that they are changing from a floor outlet to a wall outlet toilet. That automatically adds a lot of time and money to the equation, and as long as the choice is made soon enough either is possible.

why?

They are easier to keep clean, and when it comes to removing one to unplug it, if it were ever necessary, I would rather remove several wall hungs than a single floor outlet toilet.

SuperSewist
02-28-2006, 08:49 AM
hj, we've got two projects going in this thread - Carol (that's me) wants to convert from standard floor discharge to wall mount but am not committed yet, and Jeorg has a committed project to convert from wall hung to floor-mount rear-discharge with a fine Yorkville on the way.

Jeorg, if 4" outlet height is the standard, there's no way a wall hung is ever going to be more than 2 to 3" above the floor, right? That kinda spoils the clean open visual look I was imagining. Did you get your nipple:flange issue straightened out?

The Carlyle and the Vespin are an excellent step in the right direction. There's still a gap between the toilet and the wall, but I'll bet I could live with that. I've found some "back to wall" units in the UK. Very sleek. Why can't the USA make some units like this with a floor discharge? I was unable to find even one. That would get me no-nooks-and-crannies cleaning AND have no re-plumbing to do.

-~Carol~-

Joerg
02-28-2006, 01:23 PM
Hello Carol,

With a 4" pipe center height a wall hung is usually just about an inch above the floor at its thick back plate, then gradually (but slowly) increasing towards the front. I don't think it's much easier to clean around them.

Yes, I did solve the waste line issue. Took a solid hour but I finally found a Zurn carrier for rear discharge that seems to have the usual threaded nipple. It is the Zurn Z1203-N-F. So I believe it's ok.

Don't know about the UK but Europe has a much better toilet selection than the US. I have installed a few over there and if you need a rear discharge version you just walk into a big box store or a small plumbing supplier and buy one right off the shelf. They cost about the same as floor discharge, not anything like we are now paying for the Yorkville. Of course, if you want one of the fancy designer lines it can get really expensive. But that is probably because then you pay Enzo Ferrari's staff or other high-$$ design groups for their contributions.

There are also less clog and venting issues in Europe. In Germany the standard pipe is 110mm or about 4". You can buy all kinds of angle pieces with built-in rubber seals. No glue and it can all be taken apart again although I never saw the need to do that because there were no clogs. Most houses only have one central stack vent, that's it.

When thinking about importing one (I have no idea whether that's legal) always mind the pipe sizes. Most EU toilets are about 4" while many US homes are piped 3". I believe that would be a recipe for repeated clogging. If the trapway diameter of a toilet would be larger than the waste pipe that can't be a good thing.

Regards, Joerg.

graman
10-03-2010, 10:23 AM
Carol,
Did you complete the floor-to-wall conversion of the toilet? I took out two floor mounted toilets in my new home and am wanting to mount toilets on the wall.
What kind of sewer pipes do you have? In my house, there is the Standard ABS-DWV Schedule 40 ASTM D-2661 3-inch pipes (black).
-Graman

rocknice21
10-15-2010, 10:27 AM
I just put a review on my rear flush toilet on the "quitest rear discharge" thread... the Sani-flo ends up about 7" or so off the finished floor.

-Ryan

hj
10-16-2010, 09:03 AM
quote; They cost about the same as floor discharge, not anything like we are now paying for the Yorkville

There is a LOT more to making a wall hung toilet than a floor mount, especially if you do not want it crashing to the floor the first time it is used. THEREFORE, they cannot cost the same as a floor mount, unless the floor mount is overpriced.