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View Full Version : Install Drake II questions on steps in write-up



azmikie
10-15-2012, 10:14 PM
First off, I am no plumber, so sorry if these question are something assumed to be known information.
1. In steps 8 and 9 it says to install the tank bolts when you install the tank to the bottom using only one nut per bolt. My assembly instructions tell me to install the bolts to the tank with a nut and the the tank to the bottom with a second nut. Can you clear this up for me?

2 In the next post by Terry it says under the wax ring picture "Notice that the bag of bolts includes four nuts and four washers." My floor mounting kit only came with two bolts, two nuts, two plastic washers and two metal washers. What is the second set of nuts for in the one you have pictured?

wjcandee
10-15-2012, 10:51 PM
These are actually good questions.

First: single-nutting vs double-nutting the tank installation. The preferred way explained on this forum is the double-nut approach, and it's traditional. You take the rubber washer and slide it over the bolt. You insert the bolt into the tank. Only the bolt head and rubber washer are inside the tank. To ensure that this connection stays straight and firm, you put a metal washer and nut on the outside of the tank. This compresses the bolt head absolutely-vertically into the rubber washer, and seals the bolt hole in the tank. So, when you go to tighten the tank onto the bowl, you don't end up applying pressure more on one side of the washer than the other, or pulling the tank down any way but vertically. Now, you mount the tank onto the bowl, and use a rubber washer, metal washer, and the other nut underneath the bowl to do so. This is the way Toto recommends it. It's the way that Fluidmaster and Korky did their toilet rehab kits for years. Then, the manufacturers found out that lots of DIYs and some pros would just chuck the extra washers and nuts, using only one of each, because they don't read directions. Korky claims to have done lots of research and swears that there is no advantage to double-nutting, but admits that they saved some $$ by revising their kits to eliminate the extra set of hardware. Personally, I think you are better off long-term double-nutting. My own experience with a Korky kit was that the first go-round had the bolts at something of an angle to the bottom of the tank by the time I was done slowly tightening the tank down bit by bit to compress the tank-to-bowl gasket and get a firm connection between tank and bowl; it didn't leak around the bolts, but in a few years, it most likely would have. I detached the tank and started over. It took a whole lot of extra care to get that bolt-head/washer seal perfectly-vertical while tightening just the one nut from underneath the bowl, in part because the bolt was having to penetrate two holes but being held in place only by the tension applied from underneath the furthest hole. I love the folks at Korky but I disagree with their analysis, if for no other reason that it makes it harder to get it right the first time. At a minimum, double-nutting is chicken soup -- can't hurt. And Toto gives you the hardware you need to do it right. On the Jamie instructions, he doesn't really say not to do that; I think it's subsumed in the instructions about using the hardware.

Second: Double-nutting the closet bolts. Most manufacturers don't tell you to do this. The way you see in the Toto instructions is to stand the closet bolts up in the flange, to the extent that they will stand, then mount the toilet on them, then on top of the toilet put the plastic base cap, washer and secure with the nut, cut the extra length of closet bolt with a Dremel or hacksaw, and install the cap on top. What many pros do (and Terry is one) is to use that extra nut and washer to secure the closet bolt to the flange first before mounting the toilet. Instead of just having it dangling there loosy-goosy trying to stand up in the flange, you position it where you want it and use the extra washer and nut to secure it to the flange before you put the toilet on top. That way, they stay standing up straight where you want them when you put the toilet on top. Some kit manufacturers now give you a little plastic sleevy thing to prop them up. The nut and washer work best, and for a first-timer, they actually cut the time, even though you have to take time to attach them.

Bottom line, neither way is wrong, but the consensus on here (and Terry's way) is to double-nut both connections. As you can see, there is no downside to doing it this more cautious, thorough way, and logical reasons for doing so.

azmikie
10-16-2012, 03:06 PM
Thank you very much for the response.

wjcandee
10-16-2012, 04:02 PM
Happy to help! :)

Terry
10-17-2012, 08:11 PM
When Jamie wrote those instructions, they only came with one nut and washer for each bolt. Several years ago, TOTO started sending two nuts and two washers for each tank to bowl bolt. It makes a much better connection.

I had added this picture showing the extra nut and washer, but forgot to change the text.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/ecodrake_tankbottom.jpg

Snugging up the large nut

http://www.terrylove.com/images/drake_install_large_nut.jpg

piezomot
10-26-2012, 07:33 PM
Hello Terry, I was following this advice below and just installed Toto Drake II toilet today. I refer to this procedure - "...it is not necessary for the tank to touch the bowl on all sides, a little gap all the way around is fine... ".
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?743-Installing-a-Toto-Drake-CST744-or-CST454CEFG-2-piece-toilet-written-by-Jamie-Love

Only problem I have with it - water tank rocks, see my picture below.

I installed tank bolts 3 properly, not to brake the ceramic, but the tank would rock forward and back each time I touch the handle to flush the toilet. This is because there are two gaps 1 and 2 between tank and bowl.

I just placed elastic into gap 2 as a temporary fix, as I do not know if this Toto Drake II design problem or just my toilet has such defect.

17702

wjcandee
10-26-2012, 08:00 PM
The key is it has to be level. Mine just lightly touch all the way around, and they don't rock at all. Rock solid.

Gary Swart
10-26-2012, 08:37 PM
It is not a design problem, and it's not likely to be a defect. When you tighten the nuts, you should alternate from one to another. Watch the space so you can keep the tank coming together with the bowl evenly. The three points on the tank and three on the bowl should either touch or have the space of a playing card between them. As WJ stated, the key is level. Mine also touches lightly on the three points. In your photo, it appears that the front was pulled way down and the back bolts were not tighten to keep pace with the front. Back off the front and bring the rear of the tank down so as to level it out. Then take like 3 or 4 turns on a nut then switch to another and do it 3 or 4, and continue this pattern until the tank reaches the points.

piezomot
10-29-2012, 08:38 AM
Mine also touches lightly on the three points. .

It looks like two points are at the same level, but third one (at the back) is far lower then those. Sorry, I did not get it how yours tank would touch 3 points...

Terry
10-29-2012, 08:59 AM
I would remove the water, loosen the bolts and try to re-center the tank. You should be able to pull it downward more evenly.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/epps_drake_2.jpg

wjcandee
10-29-2012, 10:36 AM
Have a look at the Toto installation instructions. I'll give you a link if you need it. It shows how the thing is supposed to touch at 3 places. It's two places in the front (left and right) and one place in the back (so...front to back). It's a way of making sure the tank is level. What Terry says is of course the answer.

piezomot
11-05-2012, 10:39 AM
Have a look at the Toto installation instructions. I'll give you a link if you need it. It shows how the thing is supposed to touch at 3 places. It's two places in the front (left and right) and one place in the back (so...front to back). It's a way of making sure the tank is level. What Terry says is of course the answer.

Thank you wjcandee, I have found it here - http://www.totousa.com/Portals/0/ProductDownloads/0GU048Z_TOILET_IM.pdf

"NOTE: Three Points of Contact:
The toilet bowl has three points of contact, which will actually contact the bottom of the toilet tank when properly installed. The location of these points can be seen on the bowl at the tank receiving area. The three points are front left (1), front right (2), and back center (3). Recall these three points during the Toilet Tank installation."

I will try to re-install water tank today...

wjcandee
11-05-2012, 01:37 PM
My pleasure! Good luck!

piezomot
11-06-2012, 05:20 PM
I am totally convinced that it is manufacturing defect. I removed tank completely and was trying to re-install it and water is leveled, you could see it from the picture below, but third point at the back still would not touch the tank.
17783

piezomot
11-06-2012, 05:22 PM
Here is another picture I made, you can see the water level better here. This back point as it could be seen on my first picture is lower then two front points!17784

LordManDude
12-11-2012, 08:15 PM
I am having the same issue right now. Without the rubber ring, the tank sits perfectly on all three points. When I put the ring on, the gap between the tank and toilet bowl is about 3/4"

When I snugged it down, I was able to get it within a hair, but honestly I was paranoid I was going to crack one or the other. Something seems off. I know we shouldn't have to be tightening these down this tight.

See my pics:
No ring.. it sits flush

18191

Here's where the ring sits and the height it absorbs

18193

What I assume is the ring, correctly attached to the fixture

18194

This is the height of the tank, just sitting on the bowl. Is this really the height it's supposed to be?

18195

piezomot, are your issues similar?

stephenk
12-11-2012, 08:25 PM
I just installed my Drake II yesterday. I've read this concern a bunch of times on this website, and of course I had it on my first Toto toilet. There are quite a few posts here where people claim the tank doesn't need to touch the bowl, but the manual is very clear that the tank does need to touch the bowl on the three contact points.

I was in the same boat as you. I ended up using a small plastic shim on the back to fill the space, so it's now rock solid. I may try to re-set the tank, but at the moment I didn't have enough time to keep messing with it.

EDIT - I had a little time today and took another crack at it. It took a couple tries, but I was able to get the tank to touch on all three points without really cranking down on the bolts. Repositioning the tank did it.

Terry
12-11-2012, 08:30 PM
We install hundreds of them, and we never shim the tank to bowl.
And what can I say, we're like perfect!

LordManDude
12-11-2012, 09:28 PM
Well, so far, all is good. I just went slow, and evenly tightened the nuts. It's flush now, and all three are touching, but I think just maybe there could be a little more room here from Toto.

Terry, I read these posts before starting, and I thank you for all the quick replys to this community. I have been a car nut for years, and have spent hours and hours on car forums. When I looked at this toilet forum, there are over 1000 other people viewing this at the same time. Wow!!! Good thing you have going here.

wjcandee
12-11-2012, 10:07 PM
Good Job, Duke!

I know it's a little unnerving the first time, but once you see how you can get it nice and tight and straight and solid, just by taking it easy, holding it vertical, and tightening slowly, you'll know how to do it for yourself and family and friends in the future!

It's funny, some folks don't believe they can crack the porcelain and that we're just being paranoid (wrong), and some believe that something must be wrong with the product because they're afraid to tighten it a little more to get it right (also wrong). There sure is a little touch involved, but once you get it right, it's pretty easy to see how to do it right every time after that.

And I have to say there's a real sense of accomplishment (at least for me) after a couple of efforts get it just right. I actually rehabbed a 1950s toilet a few months ago with the Korky complete kit, which includes a big thick rubber sponge gasket for the flush valve nut. It took a while to get it just right, but once I did, the thing was rock-solid. I was kind of proud because the professional who had installed it over 50 years ago had built a little plaster of paris base for the tank in order to produce the same no-wobble result, and mine was straighter, with no plaster or shims, just by doing it right. Felt good.

jadnashua
12-12-2012, 07:32 AM
The magic here is you must tighten the nuts evenly, and only just until things touch (or a hair less). It also helps if you hold the tank straight while tightening so the gap to each point stays the same as much as possible - starting out crooked can be problematic. Porcelain has no spring, and if you try to go beyond touching, you can crack things. There's a very slight amount of give because of the rubber washer, but not much!

Because I don't do it often, I'll use thick strips of paper between the contact points (say 24# copy paper), and stop when I start to feel friction when trying to pull it out. This means there's all of a few thousands of an inch clearance, and I've not gone too far.

piezomot
12-21-2012, 08:21 AM
The magic here is you must tighten the nuts evenly, and only just until things touch ...

I would like to confirm that I still do have the same issue as it was described by me earlier and was described by LordManDude. If you follow this advice above and use this so called magic, then toilet would crack. This is a manufacturing defect. I am using small eraser to fill the gap.
18325

In-spite of this problem I will buy the second Toto Drake II toilet for my second bathroom next year as this is the best toilet I ever had!

piezomot
04-16-2013, 04:29 PM
I just purchased and installed my second Toto Drake II. I have the same problem, but now I have to insert extra piece of rubber in all tree contact points to prevent tank from moving. Without the rubber ring, the tank sits perfectly on all three contact points. 19894

piezomot
04-16-2013, 04:30 PM
I started to investigate what is the root of the problem here. It looks like water tank is made in USA:19895

piezomot
04-16-2013, 04:34 PM
But the toilet is made in China! It looks like Chinese toilet C454CEFG#01 and USA ST454E#01 tank do not match very well...
19896

cacher_chick
04-16-2013, 04:54 PM
When the tank "nub" will not touch in the back, it is because you started tightening with the tank leaning forward a bit. If you were to put a level across the top of the tank, I believe you will find it is not parallel to the bowl from front to back.

The sealing washer is compressible. It is designed to compress when the bolts are tightened down. If the tank is not sitting parallel to the bowl when you start tightening, it pinches the seal more on one side than the other. The tank should be centered and level when you start tightening the bolts or it might never reach 3 points of contact before it breaks.

jadnashua
04-16-2013, 04:55 PM
While it can be disconcerting...the tank can be tightened so it makes contact. Since porcelain is not elastic, you cannot overdo it or it will break. That's why I (since I don't do it often) like to use a sheet of thick paper underneath the contact points and stop when you can still just pull it out, leaving a few thousandths clearance. A half-turn each side until you get close is all I like to do, so that the tank essentially stays even. You can crack things if you tighten one side , then go to the other. Slow and easy and evenly is the key. Your solution will work, but should be unnecessary. Toto has some of the tightest manufacturing tolerances in the industry, and it should not make any difference where the parts come from.

piezomot
04-17-2013, 06:40 AM
When the tank "nub" will not touch in the back, it is because you started tightening with the tank leaning forward a bit. If you were to put a level across the top of the tank, I believe you will find it is not parallel to the bowl from front to back.

The sealing washer is compressible. It is designed to compress when the bolts are tightened down. If the tank is not sitting parallel to the bowl when you start tightening, it pinches the seal more on one side than the other. The tank should be centered and level when you start tightening the bolts or it might never reach 3 points of contact before it breaks.

No this theory is not correct, I went to the local plumber shop dupontplumbing.com (not the one where I purchased my TOTO toilet) and examined TOTO Drake II toilet on display there- it has the same issue, it will rock. I spoke to shop owner named Frank and he told me that he did not noticed it and it is interesting observation...

I think all of these Chinese units has smaller diameter of inlet hole for the toilet water tank flange. I do not care about it as there is no water leak and water tank would not rock now...But the toilet itself is great.

wptski
04-18-2013, 06:33 AM
Toto has some of the tightest manufacturing tolerances in the industry, and it should not make any difference where the parts come from.
That may be but unless I'm wrong, it's been stated here several times that Toto toilets are made in the USA. Labeling as having high US standards manufactured elsewhere is very common.

cacher_chick
04-18-2013, 10:13 AM
That may be but unless I'm wrong, it's been stated here several times that Toto toilets are made in the USA. Labeling as having high US standards manufactured elsewhere is very common.

SOME Toto stuff is made in the USA. Some are made both here and overseas.
TOTO is not an American company, nor are all of it's components made here.

jadnashua
04-18-2013, 11:46 AM
Based on what I've heard Terry say, and other's experiences reported on this site (and mine, too)...he's not had any trouble mating tanks/bowls made in different countries with Toto. And, the colors match, too. That's what I was saying about QA/QC...they have it. Toto does make a bunch of toilets in Georgia, but depending on sales, weather, shipping, and probably other things, they bring supplies in from where ever they need to to try to meet demands. Most of their toilets that use the Unifit adapter are made here (at least for the US consumption), and some other models, but it's not a certainty you'll get one made in the USA. One of the big things with any porcelain product is the amount it shrinks from when cast to once dried and then fired. Most companies pour their slip into the molds...Toto uses a much drier mix and almost packs it in. Starting out with less moisture means it has less chance to slump and shrinks less. This keeps things like trapways the design shape and helps things stay nice and flat and level. Nothing's perfect, but their technique works.