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charles2
09-08-2012, 08:51 AM
Is there a list somewhere of water spot sizes? Looking for a good performing, reliable, elongated gravity flush ADA model with the deepest and widest water spot.

GeorgeCT
09-08-2012, 09:06 AM
I know Toto lists water spot (Toto lists it as "Water Surface") on each toilet.
Form the Toto web site ( http://www.totousa.com/ ) Select a toilet, click on the "Downloads & Resources" tab, click on "Spec Sheet", click on models listed, located on the second page is the Water Surface size.

I don't know of an easy way to find water spot size in a more efficient manner.

wjcandee
09-08-2012, 03:19 PM
I will at least tell you about some Totos you should consider. All the Totos I list meet your criteria for ADA (or "Universal") height, and are: (a) Reliable; (b)gravity toilets with (c) a GREAT flush.

The original Drake: CST744SL: ADA Height, 1.6gpf, Water Spot 10 3/8" x 8 1/4"
The Eco Drake: CST744EL: ADA Height, 1.28 gpf, Water Spot 10 3/8" x 8 1/4"

Drake II: CST454CEFG: Universal Height, 1.28 gpf, Water Spot 7 1/8" x 9 1/8"
Drake II 1G: CST454CUFG: Universal Height, 1.0 gpf, Water Spot Size not yet available (different-looking tank and trip lever from the standard Drake II)

Ultramax II: MS604114CEFG: One-piece toilet, Universal Height, 1.28 gpf, Water Spot 7 1/8" x 9 1/8"

Original Ultramax: MS854114SL: One-piece toilet, ADA Height, 1.6 gpf, Water Spot 10 5/16 x 8 1/4
Eco Original Utramax: MS854114EL: One-piece toilet, ADA Height, 1.28 gpf, Water Spot 10 1/4 x 8 1/4

Hope this helps.

charles2
09-09-2012, 08:16 AM
Thanks. Is Toto the only mfr that lists water spots?

wjcandee
09-09-2012, 10:22 AM
Thanks. Is Toto the only mfr that lists water spots?

I'm sure not. But it's the best one, and the one most often recommended on here. After I just did a bunch of work for you, at least read the toilet reviews in the green box above.

charles2
09-09-2012, 12:17 PM
Thanks and I apologize if I seemed ungrateful. I've heard lots of good things about Toto over the years (I'm a remodeler). Problem is no Toto dealers in my area, so I'm left with American Standard and Kohler. Kohler's Highline Classic 14799-0 has a 11-3/8 x 8 water spot, which seems to be at least as good as any you listed. I'm also interested in American Standard's 710FA.101.020, but can't find any specs on their website.

LLigetfa
09-09-2012, 12:24 PM
I have to wonder why the water surface area is of concern and can only surmise it is to keep streaks below the water line. If so, one must also ascertain the location relative to the plumb line of the dump.

charles2
09-09-2012, 12:37 PM
That's half of it - the other is odor control. This is getting too technical!

wjcandee
09-09-2012, 01:26 PM
Didn't mean to seem crabby.

Toto is based in Georgia. Try here for places that carry them: http://www.totousa.com/Default.aspx?tabid=185 Also online sources available if nobody in your area. CST744S or CST744E are going to be available at a price close to that AS you are looking at.

The AS you mentioned -- is this a Lowe's only item (the "Saver" series)? I can't match the Lowe's item to a specific model on the AS web site. Good luck on getting good quality from AS at a big box, so I would call this a no-go. (Lots of info on this site about quality issues with AS toilets.)

Also, for what it's worth, depth is important too, in a water spot. There's a limit to how many litres the water spot can be and still keep the flush cycle (which includes the refill in its measurement) at the specified amount. So wide and shallow may not cover the waste, if you know what I mean. I'm not aware of anyone who gives the spec on the liquid volume of the waterspot.

LLigetfa
09-09-2012, 01:27 PM
http://www.justadrop.com/

charles2
09-09-2012, 01:34 PM
The quick availability of replacement parts is also a concern.

charles2
09-09-2012, 01:37 PM
http://www.justadrop.com/

Hard to believe it works, and would prefer not to use it if the water spot is big enough.

charles2
09-09-2012, 02:16 PM
The AS you mentioned -- is this a Lowe's only item (the "Saver" series)? I can't match the Lowe's item to a specific model on the AS web site. Good luck on getting good quality from AS at a big box, so I would call this a no-go. (Lots of info on this site about quality issues with AS toilets.)


Yes, Lowe's is the closest source to the job site. I personally used a couple of AS toilets for a decade and needed only to replace the flappers. Have you seen any complaints about this particular model?

charles2
09-09-2012, 02:54 PM
read the toilet reviews in the green box above.

It used to be that Toto's CST704L, Kiki CST703 and CST713 were highly regarded, but I don't see these on Terry's list. What happened to them? And does Toto still use universal replacement parts?

wjcandee
09-09-2012, 03:10 PM
The quick availability of replacement parts is also a concern.

NOW we are talking turkey! Bottom line is that Toto uses straightforward, non-proprietary parts made in large part by Korky here in the US and for which factory-authorized Korky replacement parts are available at any Lowe's and many local hardware stores.

Korky "Fits Toto" Red Flapper at Lowe's: Click Here (http://www.lowes.com/pd_125475-868-2021PK_0__?productId=3158683&Ntt=korky&pl=1&currentURL=&facetInfo=)

Korky 528MP Fill Valve at Lowe's, functionally-identical to the new Toto Universal Replacement Fill Valve that Korky manufactures for Toto and which Toto sells directly: Click Here (http://www.lowes.com/pd_336988-868-528MPK_0__?Ntt=528mpk&productId=3284948&rpp=16)

So, now and for the forseeable future, you will have no problem getting replacement parts easily and locally, or by mail order from Lowe's at an affordable price. Toto also has excellent customer service; if you call them with an issue, they are in Georgia, are very nice, and often will just send you a part free even if they don't have to, just to keep you as a happy customer.

wjcandee
09-09-2012, 03:19 PM
The first two are long-discontinued "Reliance Commercial Line" toilets, and the 713 is I think the Carusoe, all with 2" flush valves. Last spec sheets I found on the first ones were from 1997.

Come on to the 21st Century! Terry indicates that the basic Drake, with readily-available parts and a great flush with the 3" flush valve, is something he considers commercial grade. I think I saw where he just put a bunch of them in his local church (look at the end of the CST744 owner reviews). It comes in an ADA height version and a right-handle if you need them at the job site. CST744SL or CST744EL for the ADA-height and add an "R" to the model for a right-handle.

charles2
09-10-2012, 07:58 AM
Come on to the 21st Century! Terry indicates that the basic Drake, with readily-available parts and a great flush with the 3" flush valve, is something he considers commercial grade.

OK, you've convinced me to pull the trigger on the CST744SL.

wjcandee
09-10-2012, 08:18 AM
Great! If you want to buy local, I would look off the Toto supplier locator I linked to above.

wjcandee
09-10-2012, 09:09 AM
We generally don't talk about online sources here, but you'll see what i mean if you google the model number. look at colonial white as well as cotton when you find the site. colonial is closer to current AS white.

charles2
09-10-2012, 10:59 AM
OK, I understand. But this is a replacement for a 1979 Kohler lowboy, not AS.

charles2
09-10-2012, 11:05 AM
Also, is Toto compatible with Bemis seats?

wjcandee
09-10-2012, 01:02 PM
Yep. No problem. 5 1/2" between post holes. As to AS, I was just identifying the difference between the two whites.

charles2
09-10-2012, 04:43 PM
I should probably start another thread to ask this, but how do you decide between a closed front and open front seat?

jadnashua
09-10-2012, 04:55 PM
You generally see an open front seat in public restrooms...it enables 'drips' to go onto the porcelain rather than run under and on the seat, and provides a little more room for the male anatomy.

charles2
09-10-2012, 05:16 PM
Is that why hospitals do it? I'm asking because the clients are elderly and are trying to stay out of nursing homes.

jadnashua
09-10-2012, 05:21 PM
It's easier to keep the seat clean.

charles2
09-10-2012, 05:29 PM
Yep. No problem. 5 1/2" between post holes.

Yeah, but sometimes the shape may not exactly match.

wjcandee
09-10-2012, 08:14 PM
Terry has indicated that the relevant Toto seat really fits the bowl of the Drake very nicely; it's comfortable and aesthetically-pleasing.

In our house, we had recently replaced the plastic seats on several toilets with the wooden Mayfair (Bemis) slow-close seats with the EZ-detach feature, and I just moved them to our two new Drakes (one round, one elongated). To us, they seem to fit fine, and the family really likes them, but we seem to like the hard seat. Guess it's just what we're used to; it's not a money issue, we just like 'em. But they do "fit" in any way that's noticeable, although they don't fit the contours of the toilet exactly like the Toto seat, I think.

brucet99
09-11-2012, 06:04 PM
I found my Toto toilet at National Builders Supply, Austell GA, delivered to my door in SoCal in 5 days for $100 less than at a local discount plumbing supply. They actually packed the original cartons in bigger boxes surrounded by packing peanuts foamed in place with expanding foam.

www.national*************.com

Edit: apparently there is something on this forum that prevents posting their url, so I guess I cant do it.

*************

.com/c/toilets/368

wjcandee
09-11-2012, 06:45 PM
Hey, Charles2, I did a little open-seat research for you and was intrigued at the compliments that the open-front, commercial-grade Toto SC134 seat seems to get from folks who had bought it for home. It's one of the ones noted by Toto on the spec sheet for the CST744S. If you look at the customer reviews at the major housewares merchants' web sites, they're almost unanimous that this is one nice seat.

Edit: By sheer coincidence, after I posted this earlier, a family member allowed as how the Toto SS114 seat on our Carlyle II had "broken". I assumed it had just slipped on a loose attachment bolt. Nope -- one side had come apart, apparently from significant torsion (don't ask). So I took the thing off the toilet, disassembled and reassembled it and reattached it...good as new. However, in doing so I just have to say that every piece is really nice, solid, heavy plastic or metal, an interesting and solid design, and it just exudes quality. Apparently, this is a newer design of the SS114 where they have kept the model number, because I saw lots of bitching on one seller's web site about how the seat shipped didn't match the photo on the site or the SS114 that had come on their old toilet, and posted their own photos to prove it. Indeed, my 114, which came with the toilet, is different from the old product photo but exactly what the seller was selling. (People were actually sending it back saying that the wrong product was in the box, even though the box had the right number. The perils of significantly-redesigning something and giving it the same model number, I guess, but if I were the merchant I would be pissed at the manufacturer for causing all this tsouris.) Regardless, my point is that the current SS114 seems to be a very nice closed-front seat.

charles2
09-11-2012, 09:53 PM
Hey, Charles2, I did a little open-seat research for you...

Hey thanks. What's the difference between the SS114 and SS204 soft close seats? And between the SC534 and SC134 seats?

charles2
09-12-2012, 05:33 PM
I see now that the SC134 has a cover and the SC534 doesn't, but still can't discern the difference between the soft close seats. Anybody?

wjcandee
09-12-2012, 06:56 PM
I see now that the SC134 has a cover and the SC534 doesn't, but still can't discern the difference between the soft close seats. Anybody?

Appearance. The ss204 has a wide-back design that makes it look like a complete oval on the top of the toilet and is a top-mount design. The SS114 has the nuts under the toilet, and a different look. Everybody has the wrong picture of the current SS114 unless you look at totousa.com, and to see it there, enter ss114#01 in the search box, otherwise it doesn't come up.

charles2
09-17-2012, 04:55 PM
I found my Toto toilet at National Builders Supply, Austell GA, delivered to my door in SoCal in 5 days for $100 less than at a local discount plumbing supply. They actually packed the original cartons in bigger boxes surrounded by packing peanuts foamed in place with expanding foam.

They're still doing it that way. Order arrived today.

wjcandee
09-17-2012, 05:17 PM
Awesome. If you would, I'd love to know how the install goes and your impressions of the toilet quality, flush, etc., and how your clients like it. After using "regular" toilets elsewhere for a couple of days, I was newly-amazed today at how fast the flapper opens and closes on the Drake, and how quick and effective the flush is. I remember that one family member at first thought the Drake was "broken", because it all happened so fast. I am always interested in what other people think about the whole thing.

PS I know you know how to install a toilet, but for what it's worth the directions for the Drake install are pretty good, and show a good method for determining how tight to make the tank to eliminate wobble. And of course there is Jamie Love's overview of how to install a Drake on the Drake review thread.

And you probably know this as well, but you need to bring your own wax ring and closet bolts to the party, and maybe a new supply line.

charles2
09-20-2012, 05:44 PM
I was a bit disappointed to see Made in Mexico instead of Made in Georgia. My plumbing sub said the installation was typical for him. However, after he left I saw that he didn't read the directions so the tank wobbles. But it doesn't leak, the clients haven't complained and are very impressed with the flush.

What do you mean "maybe" a new supply? Are you forgetting what got replaced? :-)

wjcandee
09-20-2012, 06:28 PM
The Drake gets made in Georgia, Vietnam, Mexico and perhaps other places. In our house, two of the four components (2 tanks, 2 bowls) are from the US, and one each from Vietnam and Mexico. If you got the Korky fill valve inside, that part is made here. The good news is that the quality is pretty uniform across plants, unlike the Hecho en Mexico American Standard products. My Vietnam bowl matches my US tank just perfectly, for example. Hope you didn't feel misled.

If you want to eliminate wobble, you can always empty the tank, loosen the tank bolts, and retighten the right way. Anyway, glad they like the flush. Mission accomplished.

On the supply, all I meant was that it wasn't in the box, so unless you wanted to reuse the old water supply line, you needed a new one. I follow Terry's recommendation that one change the supply line when one changes the toilet, but I know it isn't always absolutely necessary.

charles2
09-16-2013, 08:26 AM
Well, almost a year has passed and the same clients want another toilet. Is the Toto CST744 still the best choice?

wjcandee
09-16-2013, 01:32 PM
It's still a great value! We still love ours!

The CST744EL (the 1.28gpf version) now is available with the option of a different-look tank. It's a little more money for the new-look tank. That would be CST744ELN. The bowl is the same. The old tank is still available (and I still like its look better) under CST744EL. If you want that 1.6gpf flush, than you want the one you bought last time, which is CST744SL. (S for 1.6, E for 1.28)

The Drake II, again for more money, is also a fine toilet and has become one of Toto's most popular. CST454CEFG. It has a "dual cyclone" flush that gives a little-better bowl wash. And it comes at "universal height" for no extra charge.

However, if the clients like the ADA-height 1.6gpf Drake that they have, another one is probably the best value out there!