PDA

View Full Version : how to square up mounting holes for closet bolts



coldsolderjoint
09-01-2012, 10:35 PM
Hi Guys..

I'm tiling my floor and will soon be installing the toilet. American Standard Champion 4 (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?4833-American-Standard-Champion-toilet-Review-and-comments) (they got me on the hotdog flushing videos).

I have 12 3/4 inches from the wall to the center of the pipe, the toilet says 12" rough in.

In the picture below, the tiles around the edges of the room (including the one under the flange) are just sitting on the floor- no thinset yet. The flange is just stuck into the pipe for alignment purposes. Its one that fits inside a 4 inch pipe or onto a 3" pipe. I have a 4 inch pipe. I cut the pipe a little short.. but I have at least an inch for primer and glue..

So here are my questions:

1. Is there a better flange to use in this instance?
2. Once I glue the flange down.. the metal ring will spin around and need screws to hold it down.. Carbide pre-drill through the tile and then stainless screws into sub-floor?
3. How do I align the ring properly? What do I use as a reference? The walls aren't square like most houses aren't, and I have no vanity yet. should I just wing it? Do the slots for the closet bolts offer a lot of adjustment? How much could I be off and not have anyone notice?

Thanks in advance17193

Terry
09-02-2012, 08:46 AM
The metal ring is fine. You can use the slots, that gives some adjustment later. Galv or stainless screws for the flange are fine. You align the bowl so it looks right to the eye.
Buy shims for installing your Champion. They tend to be a bit wavy on the bottom. That's why we install so many more TOTO bowls. You must be feeling lucky if you bought American Standard. I'm not a gambler. Good luck!

Here are Jamie's instructions for installing a toilet (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?743-Installing-a-Toto-Drake-CST744-or-CST454CEFG-2-piece-toilet-written-by-Jamie-Love)

dlarrivee
09-02-2012, 08:49 AM
What technique did you use to apply that dark paint on the walls?

Terry
09-02-2012, 09:04 AM
What technique did you use to apply that dark paint on the walls?

That's the drywall. The white is the mud that's been applied and sanded. He's getting it ready for painting.

wjcandee
09-02-2012, 10:14 AM
A few other thoughts:

(1) As Terry alluded to, his experience is that the American Standard products now are very hit or miss as to whether you'll get a defective one. There are lots of stories on here about it, but bottom line is that you should inspect your Champion very, very carefully, looking for things like areas that were not glazed, particularly in the bowl, chipped or broken areas that were repaired at the factory and yet sold as new, defective trapways, castings that slump to one side or another, etc. Please, please take it back as many times as you need to (more than once isn't unheard-of) in order to get a good one. If you do, it will do the job, as shown in Terry's Toilet Ratings (green box above). The point is, make sure YOU are happy with the one you get, and keep returning it until you are. If it seems defective, it is. And believe me, anyone who sells these things has seen it before, no matter how surprised they claim to be.

We're not kidding: apparently, AS will sell this stuff and just hope that the homeowner doesn't return it, and our experience on here (which is sometimes heartbreaking) is that they typically don't. That is, someone saves up and special-orders an expensive AS toilet in a particular color; it arrives with a big spot of glazing missing right in the bowl, which couldn't have been missed by even the laziest QA in the factory, but it isn't noticed by the homeowner until after they install it, and they're very sad because they were so happy to get their new toilet and instead have spent all this money on something defective. So they are sad, but it just seems like too much of a hassle to replace it. So they live with it. It appears to be an awful, cynical approach to doing business. It's like GM used to be -- all marketing and limited engineering or quality -- which is why the Japanese manufacturers, who focused on engineering and quality assurance, wiped the floor with them. It's happening again with toilets. Toto does almost no national retail advertising, and yet word of mouth, recommendations of professionals, and sites like this have let them explode in the American marketplace, basically on merit alone.

(2) 12 3/4 is going to give you the toilet's 1.25" plus another .75" off the wall. That 2" or so isn't small, so make sure you paint the wall first and well, because the area behind the toilet will be visible. The benefit is you can easily clean and dust behind it.

(3) You are doing it correctly to mount the flange on top of the tile, secured to the subfloor. That's what is going to hold it in place for the toilet to be secured to. One way to align it is to put the closet bolts in to the long slots, threads up, slide them all the way to the end of the slots, secure them with a nut so they stay there for now (and most plumbers do that when installing the toilet, too: two nuts -- one on the flange, one to secure the bowl). Now, use a long straight edge of any kind on the wall side of the bolts to get a sense of their alignment, and spin the flange until you have them aligned how you want to align them. It's typical to square the flange bolts to the rear wall -- after all, your other fixtures likely will be square to that wall -- but you can do it so it's how you like it. The slots give you some wiggle room to adjust the toilet so it looks good even after you have secured the flange to the floor. When you have the flange aligned how you want it, mark the drill holes, and drill your holes through the tile then secure with screws to the subfloor below. The toilet is going to be held to the floor by the flange, and the flange is going to be held down not by your glue, but by the secure attachment by screws to the subfloor.

Looks nice! Good luck!

coldsolderjoint
09-02-2012, 03:36 PM
That's the drywall. The white is the mud that's been applied and sanded. He's getting it ready for painting.

That's all brand new drywall.. this bathroom was demo'ed to dirt and Studs.. The white is primer, and the gray is finish paint.. My finance wanted bead board wainscoting.. so I only gave the top half of the wall a nice coat of paint to ensure I had enough.. She insisted on using the $7 gallon of "oops!" paint from Home depot that I'd never ever be able to match again.. during the second coat.. I just rolled out whatever was left on the roller to the lower area of the wall figuring it couldn't hurt for sealant/another coat purposes.. now.. shes telling me she wants wall paper on the lower half.. (The thick textured stuff you can paint).. so it looks like I'm going to have to scuff up that paint anyways..

As for the American Standard.. I got it from Lowes for $199, it's been sitting in my kitchen in the box for 6 months or so.. I think I've probably even lost the receipt.. that was back when I thought this was going to be a quick project.. I went on a good review from my boss who is good with DIY stuff..and their magic flushing power videos.. so I'm going to cross my fingers.. when I come here.. I see I might be in for a disappointment when I pull it out of the box.
And.. theres actually a plumbing place in town that sells TOTO toilets.. so if this one is acceptable here for this project.. I guess I'll go with the TOTO when i redo the other smaller bathroom.

Thanks for all the Replies!

wjcandee - I think I'm going to like having a little space between the tank and Wall.. for some reason.. it always bothers me when it's touching.. plus then like you say... i can get behind it a little better for cleaning.. and thanks for the tip about the straight edge and back wall.. that's what I was looking for..

Another question on this about the sink.. the drain is an old piece of copper.. I left all the drain piping in place because it seemed structurally sound. When I bought the house.. it was connected to the plastic trap with a fernco and a "squiggle flexi-tail piece".. the kind that is corrugated and I think is frowned upon.

What would be a good way to clean this up without using the fernco? Do they sell a slip/compression type fitting for connection to the copper, or would I have to solder an adapter to the copper and transition to pvc? I can solder alright when the pieces are on the work-bench.. but my record of not setting walls on fire isn't too great.. and would a standard propane torch even get that hot for the big/old copper? If that is all a big hassle.. I can get another fernco.. we are planning an enclosed vanity.. so the plumbing wont normally be visible.

jadnashua
09-02-2012, 07:20 PM
Depending on the tile, you may or may not be able to drill holes for the toilet flange with a carbide bit...if you mark things, you can make a slot with the tile saw for the screws to pass through the tile. Re how to align the slots of the flange...measure from the wall and make the slots equidistant from the wall. The slots are fairly long, and the bolt doesn't need to be at the end away from the T-slot, but needs to be far enough away for decent support. Use a second set of nuts and washers to lock the bolt in place - makes it easier to set the toilet without knocking things out of line.

Don't know if they make a compression Desanko fitting to the copper drain pipe, but you could use a nohub connection. Fernco is a brand like Kleenex...they make lots of products. A no-hub connection has a metal reinforcement sleeve over it to maintain alignment.

dlarrivee
09-02-2012, 08:05 PM
That's the drywall. The white is the mud that's been applied and sanded. He's getting it ready for painting.

Not even a homeowner would mud and tape the bottom 2" of the wall... it's dark paint.

Terry
09-02-2012, 09:00 PM
Not even a homeowner would mud and tape the bottom 2" of the wall... it's dark paint.

He might if that's where the taper is.

coldsolderjoint
09-02-2012, 09:02 PM
White is primer.. gray is finish paint.. sorry it got hidden in my last reply.. but was planning beadboard/wainscoting so i didnt paint the whole wall.. just rolled out what was left on the roller. Also.. bottom 4 feet has a rougher finish than the top.. only put on one skim coat and didnt go crazy sanding the bottom

Terry
09-02-2012, 09:27 PM
White is primer.. gray is finish paint..

I stand corrected.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17193&d=1346564075

nestork
09-02-2012, 11:33 PM
Cold Solder Joint:

You said:

"My finance wanted bead board wainscoting.. so I only gave the top half of the wall a nice coat of paint to ensure I had enough.. She insisted on using the $7 gallon of "oops!" paint from Home depot that I'd never ever be able to match again.. during the second coat.. I just rolled out whatever was left on the roller to the lower area of the wall figuring it couldn't hurt for sealant/another coat purposes.."

If you're saying you used real cheap paint on the upper half of those walls, then you need to repaint. Especially if you painted the ceiling with that paint.

You see, 90 percent of the latex paints in North America are made from one of two different kinds of plastics:

1. All exterior latex paints, top quality interior latex paints, kitchen & bath paints and special primers for fresh masonary will be made of a plastic called polymethyl methacrylate, which you probably know better as Plexiglas.

2. General purpose primers and budget priced interior latex paints are made of a plastic called polyvinyl acetate, which you probably know better as white wood glue.

The problem with using a budget priced paint in a bathroom is that white wood glue just doesn't have good resistance to moisture. In fact, it doesn't matter how long white wood glue has been dry, it'll still soften up and re-emulsify if it gets wet and stays wet for a while. When you use a white wood glue type paint in an area with high moisture and humidity, the result is that the paint softens up and looses it's adhesion, and the result is that it cracks and peels off the substrate. Peeling paint on the ceiling above the shower or high on the walls around the bathroom is probably THE most commonly misdiagnosed paint problem there is. People invariably attribute it to insufficient prep work prior to painting, and that's exasperating to the homeowner who knows that he did everything he could have done to ensure good adhesion prior to painting. In most cases the real problem is that a paint with poor resistance to moisture and humidity was used in the wettest and most humid room in the house; on the ceiling and high up on the walls where the humidity is highest of all.

Your best bet would be to paint over that cheap paint with a paint specifically made for bathrooms like Zinsser's "PermaWhite" bathroom paint available at Home Depot or a product sold at Sherwin Williams paint stores called simply "Bath Paint". By purchasing a paint specifically intended to be used in bathrooms, you know you're getting a paint where the binder resin was selected specifically because of it's high moisture resistance. And, two coats of a paint specifically made for use in bathrooms will protect the underlying white wood glue from the moisture and humidity, thereby preventing it from cracking and peeling and taking the much better quality Bathroom paint off with it.

Look on that can of black paint to see if it says it contains "vinyl acrylic copolymers", which means it's made out of polyvinyl acetate (and other stuff), and that in turn means it's not a good choice for use on surfaces that are exposed to dampness, moisture and high humidity. And if it wuz me, I'd repaint with two coats now while you still have good access to all the painted surfaces.

coldsolderjoint
09-02-2012, 11:58 PM
No.. by "oops!" paint I mean when they mess up a color or the customer don't want it.. they sell it cheap for $7/ gallon.. they usually put out a whole bunch of them on Tuesdays and they are all gone by the weekend.

I used Glidden Duo which is around $35/gallon normal price, on the ceiling and upper walls.. and glidden pva drywall primer on the lower half which is to be covered over..

paint per the msds:

limestone
kaolin
titanium oxide
2-propenoic acid, butyl ester, polym
propanoic acid, 2-methyl-, monoes
water
ammonium salt of polycarboxylic a
acrylic resin

primer:
titanium oxide
nepheline syenite
ceramic materials and wares, chemicals
water

So if im reading this right.. the paint is ok.. but the primer is wood glue primer.. but it might not be a big deal because its to be covered over anyways....

nestork
09-03-2012, 12:49 PM
You're correct.

If it says acrylic resins on the paint, then that normally means "100% Acrylic" resins, which in paint speak means the Plexiglas type paint which have much better moisture resistance that the wood glue type paints.

And you're also correct about covering a general purpose primer. Once it's covered with a quality paint, it won't get enough moisture into it to cause problems with peeling.

In future, when it comes time to repaint your bathroom, remember that you can also get paints specifically meant for bathrooms. Not only will these paints stand up better to moisture and humidity, but they'll also have mildewcides added to them. These mildewcides are solid powders that dissolve in the latex paint. These mildewcides are so highly soluble in water that even the presence of high humidity causes those mildewcides to migrate through the solid paint film toward that humidity. Once at the surface of the paint, those mildewcides kill any milidew spores that land on the paint before they have a chance to grow. So, to keep a bathroom paint effective for as long as possible, it's a good idea not to clean that paint with water any more often than necessary because doing that accelerates the depletion of the mildewcide out of the paint film.

brucet99
09-03-2012, 09:32 PM
PVA primer is perfectly fine for drywall. In fact drywall is the only substrate for which PVA is suitable.

dlarrivee
09-04-2012, 05:24 PM
w
You're correct.

If it says acrylic resins on the paint, then that normally means "100% Acrylic" resins, which in paint speak means the Plexiglas type paint which have much better moisture resistance that the wood glue type paints.

And you're also correct about covering a general purpose primer. Once it's covered with a quality paint, it won't get enough moisture into it to cause problems with peeling.

In future, when it comes time to repaint your bathroom, remember that you can also get paints specifically meant for bathrooms. Not only will these paints stand up better to moisture and humidity, but they'll also have mildewcides added to them. These mildewcides are solid powders that dissolve in the latex paint. These mildewcides are so highly soluble in water that even the presence of high humidity causes those mildewcides to migrate through the solid paint film toward that humidity. Once at the surface of the paint, those mildewcides kill any milidew spores that land on the paint before they have a chance to grow. So, to keep a bathroom paint effective for as long as possible, it's a good idea not to clean that paint with water any more often than necessary because doing that accelerates the depletion of the mildewcide out of the paint film.

I'm sorry to hear that you drank that kool-aid and feel the need to spread the word.

I'm going to ask for plexiglass paint the next time I'm at the paint store too, they should get a good laugh out of that one.

nestork
09-05-2012, 01:22 AM
w

I'm sorry to hear that you drank that kool-aid and feel the need to spread the word.

I'm going to ask for plexiglass paint the next time I'm at the paint store too, they should get a good laugh out of that one.

If people working in a paint store laugh at the idea of latex paint being made out of the same plastic that Plexiglas is made of, it's more sad than it is funny. That's cuz most people working in paint stores know next to nothing about the paint they're selling. If they did, they'd know that good quality latex paints are made from polymethyl methacrylate, which is the plastic that Plexiglas is made of.

Here, take a look at this Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poly(methyl_methacrylate)

Right at the beginning of that page it says:
"Poly(methyl methacrylate) (PMMA) is a transparent thermoplastic... ...and was first brought to market in 1933 by the Rohm and Haas Company, under the trademark Plexiglas.[4] It has since been sold under many different names, including Lucite and Perspex.

They're saying that Plexiglas is made out of PMMA, or polymethyl methacrylate.

Now, look further down on that same Wikipedia page under Artistic and Aesthetic Uses where it says:

"Acrylic paint essentially consists of PMMA suspended in water; however since PMMA is hydrophobic, a substance with both hydrophobic and hydrophilic groups needs to be added to facilitate the suspension."

What they're saying is that acrylic paints consist of extremely tiny blobs of hard clear and colourles Plexiglas (called "binder resins") suspended in water, and that a chemical is added to the paint to keep those tiny particles of plastic in suspension.

Now take a look at this page from the Rohm & Haas Company:

http://www.paintquality.com/homeowners/paint-advice/infosheets/100acrylic.pdf

In paint-speak, the term "100% Acrylic" means the binder resins are made out of polymethyl methacrylate and "vinly acrylic" means that the binder resins are made out of polyvinyl acetate, which is often abbreviated to "PVA".

That web page from Rohm & Haas lists the benefits of using paints made with PMMA resins, and point #1.b is that under wet conditions, there is a "minimized chance of peeling and loss of adhesion".

They're saying that if you use a 100% Acrylic paint on the ceiling and walls of a bathroom with a shower that's going to create wet conditions for the paint, the paint isn't less likely to peel off.

However, when most people see paint peeling in a bathroom, expecially on the ceiling and high up on the walls, they attribute the problem to insufficient prep work prior to painting. This is probably the most commonly misdiagnosed problem when it comes to painting.

http://cds.a9t2h4q7.hwcdn.net/main/store/20090519001/items/media/Wallcoverings/conco/ProductLarge/5000front1G.jpg

coldsolderjoint
09-05-2012, 07:27 AM
I put the grout in last night.. and ordered wainscotting for the bottom 36" of wall.

When I do install the toilet.. can I use the wax rings and bolts that are in the toilet box, or should I get new ones?

wjcandee
09-05-2012, 07:41 AM
I would look carefully at what they give you in the box, because it's not always the best quality. Frankly, if I were going to spend money on something, I would get myself a better set of tank-to-bowl hardware, as many of the reporting professional on here do with this toilet. I would likely get a decent set of closet bolts, meaning made out of an appropriate material in a good thickness, with two nuts: one to nut to the flange and another to secure toilet to flange. As to wax rings, if you have the flange at the proper level, which you will here, a standard-thickness wax ring should suffice; when using a single wax ring, many posters here recommend the one without any kind of plastic horn or flange built-in. Of course, it couldn't hurt to have a good, thick wax ring...

BobL43
09-05-2012, 07:47 AM
I put the grout in last night.. and ordered wainscotting for the bottom 36" of wall.

When I do install the toilet.. can I use the wax rings and bolts that are in the toilet box, or should I get new ones?

Just out of curiousity, why do you feel that the bolts and wax ring are any different than what you'd buy yourself? Are they not brass bolts, or long enough?

On my last toilet installation, I used the Sani-Seal ring instead of a wax ring. Its not very long ago, but it is very neat to use and I liked that part of it. I have had no leaks with it, and hope it lasts as long as the wax ring that was under the old toilet that I replaced. time will tell

coldsolderjoint
09-05-2012, 07:49 AM
I was just curious.. i still havent taken the toilet out of the box yet.. and i saw last night on the side of the box that they where included.. so given that the pro's here don't really like american standard.. thought they might not be putting good hardware in the box.

wjcandee
09-05-2012, 01:15 PM
I was thinking of replies 4, 5 and 6 of This Thread (Click Here). (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?46274-American-Standard-Cadet-3-toilet-tank-bolt-rubber-nipple-washer-leaking)

The Wolverine Brass tank-to-bowl set that the poster iin that thread mentions isn't sold to non-plumbers by Wolverine, but there are similar ones out there at any good plumbing supply place, or online. Look up Lasco 04-3675 for the kind of thing the posters are discussing.

coldsolderjoint
09-05-2012, 01:31 PM
interesting.. maybe i was on the right track to think about new hardware.. and my next toilet... :-/

wjcandee
09-05-2012, 04:53 PM
I don't mean to torture you into spending 5% of the price of the toilet (and 50% more than you spent on paint) on a tank-to-bowl set when the AS one may work just fine. That set I mention might be perceived by some as quality-overkill, but I'm pretty sure that once it is in, there will be no leaks and the tank won't be going anywhere. So one option is of course to check out what's in the box, see if it looks like it's going to work, and have the knowledge of this stuff as a fallback if there's a problem soon or down the road. Also, you can check out Terry's toilet install kit; he has said that he includes the brands that he particularly likes. If for no other reason, you can check it out to see what he uses when installing toilets. It's under shopping, near the bottom of his list of toilets and such. At the bottom here: http://www.easycarts.net/ecarts/terrylove/Toto_Toilets.html

jadnashua
09-05-2012, 08:19 PM
If the supplied hardware is solid brass or SS, it should be fine. If it is plated, it's probably not the best thing to use. And, they probably do not include a second set of nuts and washers which can really help.

dlarrivee
09-05-2012, 09:48 PM
nestork sorry to burst your bubble but there is more than one polymer in the world.

coldsolderjoint
09-08-2012, 08:45 PM
Thanks guys!

Two new questions:

1. I'm going to be installing MDF wainscotting on the lower parts of the wall.. thinking I should prime with Killz Latex and then Paint with the Gliden Semi-Gloss in the same color as the ceiling "white on white".. any problems with the semi-gloss?

2. How's the quality of Mancessa Toilets? I have one in my half bath that I will re-do after this main bath is done. I'm running low on funds and I'm thinking about re-using this toilet. It works ok overall I guess, need to plunge every once in awhile, and the tank needs to be rebuilt.. i have the fluid master kit.. just haven't got around to installing it all. Also, a lot of brown (guessing hardwater??) stains in the tank.. is it worth trying to clean it up?

wjcandee
09-08-2012, 11:02 PM
Item 1 isn't in my skill set.

As to item 2, Mansfield is owned by Corona, a Columbia-based company that makes China products. Mansfield makes Mancesa plumbing products, in large part for South American customers but they also sell through some channels in the US. So, think of it as a Mansfield, I guess. Bleach in the tank after the guts are out often helps with the brown, at least in my experience. Lots of people like that Fluidmaster 400A, but I get the sense on here that their flappers are crap; don't know if that flush valve will take a standard Korky flapper. If not, you might think of chucking that Fluidmaster flush valve and getting a Korky flush valve and flapper at Lowe's for about $10. HD has a crappy selection of Korky stuff; it's much more complete at Lowes.

You can get a Toto Drake now in a lot of places for a good price. But with your skills, you can always rehab the toilet you have now and change it out later for a Toto if you want.

jadnashua
09-09-2012, 04:28 PM
Stains in the tank aren't a problem...it can be a problem if it's in the bowl, but only asthetically.

coldsolderjoint
09-09-2012, 06:12 PM
Thanks..

like 99% sure its NOT an upper Decker

coldsolderjoint
10-12-2012, 09:45 PM
Hey Guys,

Its been a while since I was here.. but I finally finished all the small details of the bathroom! 7 months and 19 days from the first hammer blow till now! Yay! at least its done before Halloween!

I forgot all the stuff we talked about but I'll try to give a quicky update.

Toilet - Went in Fine, I bought Tile Drill Bits and drilling the holes for the flange was fine.. just went nice and slow. The flange worked fine. I used an Oatey Wax Ring and the bolts that came with it. The AS wax ring just looked cheap as did their hardware. I couldn't find a bolt set with two nuts, I was going to add my own nuts, but I got it done without it. Also I realized how much adjustment I really had once the porcelain went on.. so I guess my original question how how to square it up was kind of wasted :-D. As far as the quality of the AS Champion 4, I guess I got lucky.. couldn't find any defects other than sticker residue?? (weird).. I cleaned that off with goo-gone. The floor was off level in that area.. so the toilet ended up leaning back a little rather than front.. but it's level side to side, used two of the plastic shims. I'm really impressed with the flush power so far.

Vanity and Sink - Went in pretty easy.. took a little bit of time to find the right mounting points.. I have one toggle bolt, a long deck screw into a stud, and a tapcon into the brick chimney behind it :-P Faucet is a $60 Moen from Home depot. It came out of the box with one bad cartridge.. Moen sent me a new one 2nd day air, but still shouldn't have been broken. I used 20" supply lines because the way I measured it, 16 would have just made it.. I didn't know if I had enough room to tighten the nuts. Too bad I couldn't find 18" and I didn't want to mess with the hard lines. They kind of flare out to the sides under there.. but they are out of the way.. so that shouldn't be a problem.

I put a new radiator in and put my heater back together (replaced leaky valves, and a back flow preventor and replumbed).. imagine that.. my fiancee and the dog NEEDED to be warm :-P. I have a full pound of solder now.. so that will take a few years to get through. I had about 12" left and it was 9pm, so I knew I had to make it over to Home depot before closing, or else that 12" would surely NOT be enough :-P So I also need to get a new torch. The "clicker" on mine doesn't always work. Is this new propane/butane mix stuff they have now worth it? I still have like 3 full tanks of propane it will take me years to go through.. Also.. should I invest in a jet-swet? All you pro-guys can recoil in disgust.. but I have been using shark bites in areas where the pipes have water in them.. I'm just no good in getting the water out before soldering.

After that.. I think everything else is pretty much just details.. but I threw in a picture of my window.. actually a bit proud of how that one came out.. at first I wanted to just picture frame it.. then when the decision about the height of the wainscoting came from the higher authority (my fiancee).. I had already put the sill in.. but in the end I think it probably looks better with the Sill and the bead board.. gives it kind of the older feel.. (what do i know.. she designs it.. I do it :-D ) ... slowly... :-D Hey.. quality work aint cheap or fast! 175291753017531

wjcandee
10-12-2012, 09:53 PM
Thanks for the update! It has been fun following your progress, and the final result looks really-nice. Really something to be proud of! Thanks again for sharing.