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LookingForAQualityToilet
07-04-2012, 08:36 PM
I am leaning toward getting a Toto to replace a round Eljer toilet. My bathroom is small and the Eljer stands only 27" from the wall. The tank is 19" wide. Is there a Toto that can be adjusted to fit in this space?

jadnashua
07-04-2012, 08:47 PM
First, measure to the finished wall from the flange bolts. How far is it exactly? I think all of the Totos that use the unifit adapter will project further into the room than your current toilet. If the rough-in is exact, they typically have 3/4" space behind them and are in the 28-29" depth range, depending on the exact model.

If you go to the www.totousa.com (http://www.totousa.com) you can check out the various models and review their specification sheets.

wjcandee
07-04-2012, 09:03 PM
First, measure to the finished wall from the flange bolts. How far is it exactly? I think all of the Totos that use the unifit adapter will project further into the room than your current toilet. If the rough-in is exact, they typically have 3/4" space behind them and are in the 28-29" depth range, depending on the exact model.

If you go to the www.totousa.com (http://www.totousa.com) you can check out the various models and review their specification sheets.

Like he says, the rough-in depth measurement is going to be critical. The round-bowl drake is itself only 26 3/8", but it stands off the wall just about an inch on a 12" rough-in.

LookingForAQualityToilet
07-05-2012, 09:33 PM
The distance is 14" to the flange bolts and there is a 1" space between the wall and tank. Does anyone know if it is feasible for me to change to a 12" rough-in so the measurement from wall would be 27 3/8"?

wjcandee
07-05-2012, 11:55 PM
If I understand your question correctly, changing the rough-in would mean moving the centerline of the flange 2" closer to the wall. The flange is sitting on top of a waste pipe that is turned upwards to meet the floor. In older homes, this is often made of a heavy metal, and, of course, the hole in the floor and subfloor for that pipe has already been cut for a pipe whose centerline is 14" from the finished wall. It's certainly doable in the sense that any floor can be torn up and any plumbing changed and/or replaced. But I believe they will tell you that it's usually a significant amount of professional work and a significant expense. (But I don't presume to speak for the pros who know what this entails.)

A more cost-efficient alternative, if it works for you, is the Toto-exclusive Unifit Adapter. The idea behind it is that the toilet will sit in the same position from the rear wall regardless of whether the rough-in is 10, 12 or 14 inches. A male fitting on the toilet, facing down, is slid into a female fitting on the one end of the Unifit, pointing up, which fittings are near the wall. The Unifit, depending on its size, "reaches forward" so that its other end will cover and attach to a flange that is positioned with its centerline either 10, 12, or 14 inches from the wall. The toilet's always going to install in the same spot; the only difference is how far forward the Unifit will reach. It's a neat idea, and like all things Toto, they have tweaked it over the years to improve it. (You actually install the Unifit first, and then mount the toilet on it, but I'm hoping that the "reaching forward" idea will help you visualize how it works.)

I took a few minutes to look at the spec sheets for the various Totos that use the Unifit. As Jim says, on the 14" rough, the toilets vary from 28" even to 28-7/16" for the toilet plus 3/4" to get the total distance from the finished wall to the front of the toilet. If your flange is a smidge less than 14" from the finished wall, then the total distance will be less; a smidge more then a smidge more. Some of the current models that use the Unifit are:

Carlyle II (I have this...love it): MS614114cefg nominally 3/4" from wall plus 28 5/16" toilet length, only 16 1/2" wide "tank" (it's a one-piece).
Vespin II (two-piece): CST474CEFG, (exact same specs as above, including tank width)
Eco Soiree (one piece) MS964214CEFG 28 1/8" length, 17 3/4" wide lid (lid is wider than tank)
Legato (one piece) MS624214CEFG 28-7/16" length, 15-13/16" china width (plus 1.5" trip lever on left)
Aimes (one piece) MS626214CEFG, (same dimensions as Legato)
Carolina II (one piece) MS644114CEFG, 28-5/16" length, 17.5" incl trip lever width
[old] Carolina (one-piece discontinued) MS884114 only 28" length, only 16.5" wide, 1.6gpf old Power Gravity flush -- some still out there apparently
Lloyd MS934214EF (one-piece) 28-1/8", 18-5/8 wide, E-Max 1.28gpf flush (no double-cyclone) [also SF for G-max flush] [also MS934304EF or SF, same toilet with different seat]
Guinevere MS974224CEFG (one-piece) 28-1/4"length, 18" wide incl trip lever

Hope this helps...

jadnashua
07-06-2012, 10:03 AM
When using a Toto with a Unifit adapter (not all Totos use it, and no, it does not work with other brands!), the whole concept is that the toilet sits EXACTLY the same place in the room whether it is on a 10, 12 or 14" rough-in, so no, moving the rough-in won't help, at least with that series.

The problem you have is that most companies that actually make a 14" rough toilet often only make the tank thicker to fill in that extra space - the body of the toilet bowl just sticks out the same it would from a 12" rough, but now because that connection is further into the room, it sticks out more than one designed specifically for 14". Basically, it costs a LOT to design a whole new bowl for a new rough-in, and few do it, only make the tank thicker. The vast majority of toilets in the USA are designed and sold as 12" rough. Volume drives what's available. Now, if you could move it to 12", you might have other choices from other brands, and other choices from Toto.

wjcandee
07-06-2012, 12:44 PM
More specifically, 26-3/8" for the original round-bowl Drake plus about 3/4" behind the toilet if you could move the rough-in to 12". Where I have the round-bowl Drake, I probably worried too much about space; if I had it to do over I would take the extra little bit and get the elongated-bowl Drake.

jadnashua
07-06-2012, 03:09 PM
By design, most toilets have some space behind them to the wall. THERE IS NO STANDARD ON THIS, so it could be almost touching to as much as a couple of inches even when the rough-in is exact. Now, if you want to roll the dice, the toilet doesn't 'need' that space, but if it does end up getting flushed many times in the row and the humidity is high, you may get condensation there that can't easily evaporate eventually. You could relocate the flange closer to the wall, say the toilet you want nomally has 3/4" behind it...if you moved the toilet flange say 1/2 to 5/8" closer to the wall (say 13.5 to 13-3/8"), you'd gain that space out into the room. This is risky, as there are tolerances in the build of any toilet, and the next one you might want to install might not fit at all.

The biggest reason people need a shorter toilet is a door. There are ways around that - one I like is a pocket door...no hassles since it does not swing. ANohter is to change the swing so it is out rather than in, or change it from L-R opening or R-L opening, or relocate the toilet altogether.

MikeQ
07-17-2012, 08:35 PM
I am also looking for a good toilet that will minimize the distance the bowl sits from the wall. It has a 12" rough-in. I've noticed models with elongated bowls typically add almost 2" to this dimension and I'm a fan of elongated bowls to help prevent the "dongle dangle" issue.

Do the various Toto round bowl models vary in their "dangle clearance"? The product data sheets seem to omit this most important specification! I'm thinking I might not need an elongated bowl if the toilet is designed properly to begin with.

Thanks,

MikeQ

Gary Swart
07-17-2012, 10:07 PM
The very nature of a round bowl toilet is why we often say that a round bowl toilet is not male friendly. This is one reason why there is less selection of round bowls compared to elongated. You can go to the Toilet Review at the top of this page and follow the links to Toto toilets. The specs for many of the popular Toto models are shown.

wjcandee
07-17-2012, 11:08 PM
Mike Q: I have been used to the round bowls since that is what we had in the house. I replaced a round bowl 1950s A/S with a round-bowl Drake, and an elongated Kohler with an elongated Drake. The elongated Drake adds 1-5/8" to the total length (28" rather than 26-3/8"), and it's a well-used 1-5/8". The round bowl Drake is comfortable in the seat for a guy, but I find myself sitting with better posture, if you know what I mean. The elongated definitely gives you more room in front to sit in a more relaxed way. If I were to do it over again, I would probably not worry so much about that additional little distance, and would have bought the elongated to replace the round bowl, although it would be a close call because the shorter bowl gives a little more room to walk in the smallish room. Although I'd love to steer you to the Drake, note that it sits about 1-1/8" off the finished wall on an exact 12" rough-in, so that's about another 3/8" more than the 3/4", give-or-take, that might seem "normal" to you, and you add that to the total distance that the front of the toilet protrudes into the room. Ultimately, it's a quality-of-life issue that I analyze this way: when you are in that area of the room, you are going to spend most of your time in a sitting position, so you might as well be comfortable, so unless you have a hard restriction like a doorway, or you need to pass between the toilet and, say, a tub in front of it to get further into the room, I'd worry less about the aesthetics and more about the comfort when I'm sitting.

MikeQ
07-17-2012, 11:16 PM
You can go to the Toilet Review at the top of this page and follow the links to Toto toilets. The specs for many of the popular Toto models are shown.

I've been comparing the specs but I can't seem to find the "dangle" spec!

MikeQ
07-17-2012, 11:31 PM
Although I'd love to steer you to the Drake, note that it sits about 1-1/8" off the finished wall on an exact 12" rough-in, so that's about another 3/8" more than the 3/4", give-or-take, that might seem "normal" to you, and you add that to the total distance that the front of the toilet protrudes into the room. Ultimately, it's a quality-of-life issue that I analyze this way: when you are in that area of the room, you are going to spend most of your time in a sitting position, so you might as well be comfortable, so unless you have a hard restriction like a doorway, or you need to pass between the toilet and, say, a tub in front of it to get further into the room, I'd worry less about the aesthetics and more about the comfort when I'm sitting.

Thanks, that's helpful feedback.

Still a tough decision. I have the floor stripped to the sub-floor so I could move the drain 3/4" closer to the wall but that probably doesn't make sense for 3/4". The room is 59.5" wide but I have to walk between the end of the toilet and a wall (with a towel rack) to get to the shower and stacked washer/dryer. And the W/D is close enough that it is necessary to stand pretty close to the toilet when loading/unloading/transferring laundry. But I'm leaning towards seated comfort.

MikeQ

wjcandee
07-18-2012, 12:18 AM
FWIW, if you go with the Drake (not the Drake II or any other toilet in the Toto line), you could move that drain so it's 11" off the finished wall and the Drake will fit (but also beware the baseboard or whatever at the floor level, if there is one). However, that's probably a lot of work that's then going to leave you with a very challenging situation if you decide to or otherwise need to swap the Drake for something else (or if you or your successor wants to put in a different toilet ten years from now), so it's not something that's probably all that brilliant an idea.

MikeQ
07-18-2012, 12:38 AM
FWIW, if you go with the Drake (not the Drake II or any other toilet in the Toto line), you could move that drain so it's 11" off the finished wall and the Drake will fit (but also beware the baseboard or whatever at the floor level, if there is one). However, that's probably a lot of work that's then going to leave you with a very challenging situation if you decide to or otherwise need to swap the Drake for something else (or if you or your successor wants to put in a different toilet ten years from now), so it's not something that's probably all that brilliant an idea.

That's what I was thinking (too much effort for too little gain).

I have the wall behind the toilet stripped to bare studs. I wonder if I should consider a wall mounted toilet with the tank in the wall? This could achieve a gain of 8 or 9 inches. I notice the Toto Aquia but the specs don't appear to mention whether it has an elongated bowl or not (it looks like it does) and the flush action of this model is not rated on Terry's consumer toilet reviews. I would need to mount the tank at the minimum height due to a horizontal plumbing vent in the wall. Would this reduce the flush action?

MikeQ

wjcandee
07-18-2012, 07:25 AM
That's what I was thinking (too much effort for too little gain).

I have the wall behind the toilet stripped to bare studs. I wonder if I should consider a wall mounted toilet with the tank in the wall? This could achieve a gain of 8 or 9 inches. I notice the Toto Aquia but the specs don't appear to mention whether it has an elongated bowl or not (it looks like it does) and the flush action of this model is not rated on Terry's consumer toilet reviews. I would need to mount the tank at the minimum height due to a horizontal plumbing vent in the wall. Would this reduce the flush action?

MikeQ

It is a "compact" elongated bowl.

I have some experience with this: our refurbished neighborhood beach house has the Duravit wall-mount and our country club's new beach house has brand-new Aquia wall-mounts; both installations, interestingly-enough, use the Geberit in-wall tank, which is odd since Toto makes a combo that includes the tank as well for a price that's better than the Geberit [and it comes ready for pex or a different one ready for copper]. You have 21-1/16 from the finished wall to the tip of the bowl, so that's going to give you some room -- about 7-ish inches over the elongated Drake and less over the round.

The flush on these is different from what you find in the typical toilets that we have been reviewing. It's called a "washdown" flush and it just pours the water violently into the bowl. The Duravit is disquieting to me, because it never seems to break the surface of the water. If you have bugs on the surface, for example (beach house), the thing can go through this violent flush and the darn things are just doing the backstroke right where they were...there's no gurgle, gurgle as the stuff on the top gets pushed under the lip of the bowl outflow. Just weird. Although the Toto is also a washdown flush and also doesn't have that gurgle, gurgle, the stuff on the surface more obviously disappears, and it doesn't have a refill stream that looks like it's coming from one of those fountains with the little boy peeing into the fountain bowl like the Duravit.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/geberit_carrier_1.jpg

In short: wall-hung is gonna give you a totally-different flush, and some more space in the room, but maybe not quite as much "package space". However, it's certainly acceptable. As to whether your proposed mounting strategy will affect how the thing flushes, I can't help there.

jadnashua
07-18-2012, 12:33 PM
As I understand it, unless the wall is deeper than a standard 2x4 studwall, you'd lose some of that space by making the wall thicker to hold the tank and plumbing. You'd have to read the spec sheet to see the minimum, though.

MikeQ
07-18-2012, 12:59 PM
The flush on these is different from what you find in the typical toilets that we have been reviewing. It's called a "washdown" flush and it just pours the water violently into the bowl.

In short: wall-hung is gonna give you a totally-different flush, and some more space in the room, but maybe not quite as much "package space". However, it's certainly acceptable.

Thanks for the feedback. I currently have a Toto in my main bath and while I don't know the exact model it is a G-Max flush. Works very well and I am more than happy with it. The only thing I don't like is it is regular white porcelain (not Sanagloss) and it is stained very easily. Is G-Max flush a type of washdown flush (but without the dual flush feature)? I'm wondering if the flush action and bowl shape of the Aquia wall mount can be compared to the Aquia III?

MikeQ
07-18-2012, 01:00 PM
As I understand it, unless the wall is deeper than a standard 2x4 studwall, you'd lose some of that space by making the wall thicker to hold the tank and plumbing. You'd have to read the spec sheet to see the minimum, though.

When I reviewed the specs of the Aquia wall mount they indicated it could be mounted in a 3 1/2" wall cavity.

jadnashua
07-18-2012, 01:55 PM
You may have a problem with getting the vent where it needs to go if you don't have more depth.

MikeQ
07-18-2012, 01:58 PM
You may have a problem with getting the vent where it needs to go if you don't have more depth.

Maybe I don't understand what you are saying but I would install the water tank under the horizontal plumbing vent line.

wjcandee
07-18-2012, 02:43 PM
Maybe I don't understand what you are saying but I would install the water tank under the horizontal plumbing vent line.

We're getting outside my expertise, but I do know that Toto makes an "optional residential installation kit" that is supposed to fit a 2x4 wall instead of 2x6, and it has a special drain kit. The installation instructions are on the toto web site. Look at CWT418MFG for the whole shebang.

wjcandee
07-18-2012, 02:49 PM
Thanks for the feedback. I currently have a Toto in my main bath and while I don't know the exact model it is a G-Max flush. Works very well and I am more than happy with it. The only thing I don't like is it is regular white porcelain (not Sanagloss) and it is stained very easily. Is G-Max flush a type of washdown flush (but without the dual flush feature)? I'm wondering if the flush action and bowl shape of the Aquia wall mount can be compared to the Aquia III?

The flush on the Aquia wall-mount is different from your G-Max flusher. More of a big cascade of water into the bowl and you don't get that same gurgle at the end (hence "washdown"). Your G-Max uses a lot of the water to pull the water down from the bowl and through the trapway (which is one reason you have to start with the right amount of water in the bowl), and less for rinsing, if that makes sense. I wish I had used an Aquia floor-mount before so I could compare for you, but I haven't. However, given the suprising number of videos on youtube of toilets flushing, maybe you could type in Aquia there and see what comes up. (There's a couple of videos there of a properly-functioning Drake G-Max flush that I made for someone who wondered if his toilet was working right. It wasn't, and he could see the difference in the video.)

MikeQ
07-19-2012, 09:58 AM
The flush on the Aquia wall-mount is different from your G-Max flusher. More of a big cascade of water into the bowl and you don't get that same gurgle at the end (hence "washdown"). Your G-Max uses a lot of the water to pull the water down from the bowl and through the trapway (which is one reason you have to start with the right amount of water in the bowl), and less for rinsing, if that makes sense.

Good idea!

I found this video of an Aqiua floor mount:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXEPkLcIeAI

It looks to flush almost just like my Toto G-Max except the G-max water level goes closer to zero during the very end of the flush. The washdown part looks very similar.

I also found this video of an Aquia wall mount that looks like it may not be installed or adjusted properly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1206um8cko

It looks like the flow is terminated too early.

MikeQ

MikeQ
07-19-2012, 10:00 AM
We're getting outside my expertise, but I do know that Toto makes an "optional residential installation kit" that is supposed to fit a 2x4 wall instead of 2x6, and it has a special drain kit. The installation instructions are on the toto web site. Look at CWT418MFG for the whole shebang.

Yes, I saw that, it looks like the drain may be smaller diameter. I wonder if that would affect it's flushing ability?

wjcandee
07-19-2012, 10:52 AM
Good idea!

I found this video of an Aqiua floor mount:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXEPkLcIeAI

It looks to flush almost just like my Toto G-Max except the G-max water level goes closer to zero during the very end of the flush. The washdown part looks very similar.

I also found this video of an Aquia wall mount that looks like it may not be installed or adjusted properly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1206um8cko

It looks like the flow is terminated too early.

MikeQ

I saw both those videos and I was shocked that the first guy got it to gurgle. Every one of these Duravit and Aquia wall-mounts I have seen doesn't have the gurgle, and there's something weirdly-incomplete and unsatisfying about it. The Duravits I have seen are worse than the Aquias, which in my experience are just like the second one you posted. If you look at 4-5 other Aquia floor-mounts on youtube, even, they all flush without the gurgle. Either there are a lot of crappy installs out there, or that's the way they normally work. I would actually be curious to know which one it is...

MikeQ
07-19-2012, 11:21 AM
I saw both those videos and I was shocked that the first guy got it to gurgle. Every one of these Duravit and Aquia wall-mounts I have seen doesn't have the gurgle, and there's something weirdly-incomplete and unsatisfying about it.

I think the first video is a floor mount. I would think the gurgle/no gurgle would have to do with either the amount and speed of the water released and/or the amount of wasteline vertical drop before hitting a Y.

jadnashua
07-19-2012, 03:52 PM
These toilets stop the draining when the siphon is broken...THAT causes the gurgle. The shape of the newer toilets and the speed with which they flush all combine to make the gurgle more common of one that works well. If you want silent, use an outhouse!

A dual-flush toilet by its nature will have either less water in the bowl to start with, since you still want to empty it all regardless of the small/large flush you activate otherwise, it would only be diluting things, and not flushing them out. Depending on the design, you can either make a smaller waterspot that is deeper, or a shallower one that is wider. Or, make one that only dilutes things and doesn't really flush on the smaller flush.

wjcandee
07-19-2012, 06:33 PM
I think the first video is a floor mount. I would think the gurgle/no gurgle would have to do with either the amount and speed of the water released and/or the amount of wasteline vertical drop before hitting a Y.

I thought that, too, but there are a bunch of floor-mount Aquia videos with no gurgle that look very much like the action of the wall-mount. So I'm confused.

MikeQ
07-24-2012, 06:47 AM
FWIW, if you go with the Drake (not the Drake II or any other toilet in the Toto line), you could move that drain so it's 11" off the finished wall and the Drake will fit (but also beware the baseboard or whatever at the floor level, if there is one). However, that's probably a lot of work that's then going to leave you with a very challenging situation if you decide to or otherwise need to swap the Drake for something else (or if you or your successor wants to put in a different toilet ten years from now), so it's not something that's probably all that brilliant an idea.

After visiting the site I've eliminated the wall mount idea and since I'll be raising the drain rough-in to accommodate a tile floor I am quite interested in the Drake I. I've already cut the 90 degree ABS elbow below the drain off at the horizontal end. I did this because the original rough-in was actually 12 3/8" from the finished wall. So I'm committed to moving the drain closer to the wall. The only question is how close.

What is the story behind the Drake I and it's larger back wall clearance? Is this a model designed specifically for installs where the 12" rough-in has shrunk to 11" due to addition of thicker wall facings being added (such as tile)? Why would the Drake I be unique in this way?

Maybe I should mount the drain at 11 1/4- 11 1/2" to preserve future options?

Mike

jadnashua
07-24-2012, 05:16 PM
If it were my house, I'd want the flange at the standard 12" from the finished wall...then, I'd have a huge range of choices at any time in the furure (or now). If you moved it closer to accommodate your preferences for a specific toilet, you'd forever be stuck should you wish to remodel down the road.

Why the Drake ends up with a larger gap than many, I don't know. It is a good toilet...I put two of them into my mother's house. If I had to do it today, I'd seriously consider the Drake II for the neater bowl wash and lower water use. Toto just announced a new toilet that only uses 1g! Not sure when you'll actually be able to buy it, but if you were in an area where water was particularly dear, it sounds like a great choice.

MikeQ
07-25-2012, 04:33 PM
If it were my house, I'd want the flange at the standard 12" from the finished wall...then, I'd have a huge range of choices at any time in the furure (or now). If you moved it closer to accommodate your preferences for a specific toilet, you'd forever be stuck should you wish to remodel down the road.


I agree. I was thinking there is a little "fudge" room with a wax seal but perhaps not a full 3/4". Since condensation will not be a problem with this particular install, and since space in front of the toilet is at a premium, I'm thinking I'll be OK if I mount it 11 5/8" - 11 3/4" from the finished wall. That will allow me to mount 12" toilets that normally sit 3/4" (or more) from the wall such that they only sit 1/4" out.

wjcandee
07-25-2012, 04:38 PM
Actually, 11.5 would do that.

brucet99
08-08-2012, 10:00 PM
I am leaning toward getting a Toto to replace a round Eljer toilet. My bathroom is small and the Eljer stands only 27" from the wall. The tank is 19" wide. Is there a Toto that can be adjusted to fit in this space?

I too needed to find a short toilet. Todd Williamson at Toto told me that the shortest toilet Toto makes is Promenade round bowl (CST423). It comes in 1.28 gpf or 1.6 gpf versions and SanaGloss is available in the white version only.

MikeQ
08-08-2012, 11:10 PM
If you can get past the styling of the Promenade and if you fit on a round bowl. If you can spare 1 3/8" you can get the Aquia III which looks better, has an elongated bowl and has dual flush. Unfortunately, it's not available with Sanagloss.

MikeQ
01-08-2014, 02:51 PM
I finally mounted the Aquia and have been using it a couple of weeks. I'm very pleased with it's looks, sounds, ergonomics and performance. Compact but with no dingle-dangle! Best toilet I've ever had.

I ended up mounting the flange at 11 1/2" which worked out perfectly and kept wasted space to a minimum.

One thing I was not aware of - The Aquia requires two mounting blocks be mounted on the floor behind the drain flange. This was almost a big problem as I had already installed floor heating wire that was about 7" from the flange. Fortunately I had taken pictures of the heating wire install before tiling over and one photo was taken from a very good angle that allowed me to determine the screws for the toilet mounting blocks would miss the wire by at least 1/2". Too close for complete comfort but I crossed my fingers and drilled away. Not a problem after all. Also, the Aquia is not compatible (as far as I could tell) with the new waxless style drain seal. But this wasn't a problem - I just used the traditional wax ring. The Aquia is designed so a small rocking motion of the toilet will not gradually work the wax seal. Not that the toilet should be installed such that it can rock but the system does seem less prone to fail over time.