water heater

[fritz]

My electric water heater is a RUUD 1982,I changed the lower element,however the upper element is IMPOSSIBLE to remove,any ideas?
Should I also change the thermostat/
Thank you
Fritz :)

[master plumber mark]

your heater is a 1982 Ruud,

If you cant get the element out, its trying
to tell you something....

it wants to be retired ....... its pushing 24 years old...


buy a new one,

or find someone that sells used ones

[fritz]

Thank you but I am still hoping to find a way to get the element ou since the heater is not leaking(yet..)any other ideas?

[master plumber mark]

your last hope is to drill it out from the center

drill a series of LARGE holes with a high speed metal bit

then wd 40 the hell out of the whole area


then get a small cold chisel and beat the element

inwards ... the element should "implode" a little

towards the holes you drilled.....


then it should move once it has shrunk

or you can just beat the hell out of it till it gives..


of course, by beating the hell out of the unit

that old ,, it will most likely give out pretty soon...

its sort of like doing a quar-ruple by pass

to a 100 year old person...they just are brittle and delicate once
they get old...

go for it Fritz!!!

[fritz]

Bud,

I appreciate it,the new on sounds better and better....

[hj]

just change whatever is "broken", period.

[fritz]

just change whatever is "broken", period.
Thank you guys,I used a large wrench on the socket and did it!!

[Cass]

Don't forget to changet the T stats.

[hj]

I always "forget" to change them unless they are broken. I just fix what is not working, and test the rest.

[Cass]

I always "forget" to change them unless they are broken. I just fix what is not working, and test the rest.

hj,
I can't tell you how many times, years ago, I went back on heaters that I serviced a week or 2 or 4 after I was there because a stat failed later because of the surge from a shorted element. It tested fine when I was there. The customers didn't like getting charged again so I just change them all now.

1 call a little more $$$, yes, but a happy customer and no call backs.

[plumber1]

I thought you said impossible.................

Leverage usually works quite well.

[hj]

I have been fixing them for over 55 years and the only thermostats I have ever had to change were the ones that were bad when I was there, never two weeks later.

[hj]

[QUOTE=plumber1]I thought you said impossible.................

Impossible just takes longer, unless the element is rusted in, then it is really impossible, or at least not economically reasonable to try to remove it.

[master plumber mark]

cass is 100% absoultely right about
changeing everything out while you are doing
the work...

nothing is more fun than having to drive 45 miles one way
to do someting for free for what could have been changed
so quickly....when you were there the FIRST TIME....


I just change everything when I do an
electric water heater..... I literally "refurbrish"
the heater and clean out the lime too...usually for $200-25

The customer does not mind when you explain to them
the heater is literally new except for the tank....


Its no fun chaseing ghosts trying to figure out what is
wrong with the tempered steel in the T-stats, grounded
elements, ect, ect....,

my time fooling around all day on a
water heater is worth more than the parts...

[fritz]

Don't forget to changet the T stats.
I am changing my lower thermostat on my electric water heater,it is now equipped with RobertShaw,from the RUUD wiring diagram it looks like "non simultaneous operation",I bought a ThermoDisc stat at home depot(no Robert Shaw available..)will this work with the upper thermostat (RobertShaw).
Does anybody have a definitive test on stats and elements using an ohm meter?
Thak you all and MERRY XMAS

[fritz]

I thought you said impossible.................

Leverage usually works quite well.

YOU ARE RIGHT>>>NEVER GIVE UP!!

[master plumber mark]

the element can be Grounded and it will still read goood.....


you have to rig up a special hillbilley electrical tool
to test an element for
this grounding problem....( I aint going into it)


the t-stats can also have had a short or power surge
pass through them that somehow scrambles their workings too...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

to even test a t-stat, you got to place the back side
on a light bulb and heat it up, and with your meter on the
power lugs, eventually the tempered metal will "click"
and throw the switch.....
then it has to cool off and click back.....

sometimes it only
"half clicks" on or off.....and that is a fun, fun problem to figure out...


THAT IS WHY I SUGGEST TO CHANGE IT ALL OUT..
your time has to be of some value



the wireing shoulb be about the same as what you had
in the first place and its really a matter of jsut hooking up
the wires to the similar lugs....

be sure you got the power off
or you might become a gohst yourself,


merry x-mas to all

[Cass]

Mark you are 100% right, an element can test good and be grounded. I have had them and the T stats that 1/2 worked.

All these posts and all that had to be done was replace 2 elements and 2 T stats. Thats why I just replace everything and I'm done and in this particular case why wouldn't you replace 24 year old parts. Personaly I'm with you to consider replacing the tank also.

[Bob NH]

If you are going to work on electrical systems you need to be able to measure things you can't see, and you need to be able to figure out what to measure and what measurements mean. The following link takes you to a good White-Rogers site where, by clicking on the Installation Instructions link, you can get schematics of water heater circuits and switches.

http://www.white-rodgers.com/common/ptech/appliance/appliance_03.htm#754-1

There are usually three switches in a two-element non-simultaneous water heater thermostat system. Often, two of the switches are combined into one unit. They are:

1. Over-temp switch with manual reset (Double pole, single throw, DPST, White-Rogers 754-1)
2. Upper element switch (Single pole, double throw, SPDT, White-Rogers 756-1)
3. Lower element switch (Single pole, single throw, SPST, White-Rogers 755-1)

The upper element switch and the over-temp switch (1 and 2 in my list) are often combined into one unit (White-Rogers 756-50).

Note that on the White-Rogers site at the link above that the 754-1 and 754-2 models are incorrectly labeled DSPT; they should be DPST. The -2 models of the thermostats seem to be for Canadian applications.

Look at the schematics in the installation diagrams. If you can't figure out what they mean then you should probably not be working on your water heater.

You need a decent multi-meter to do any kind of electrical work. There are usable ones for $20 to $40 at Radio Shack or Sears. You need one with at least a 300 Volt AC range and some resistance measuring capability. You probably can't find one that will not meet your requirements for a household meter. If you are seriously into working on things you may want to get one with a clamp-on Ammeter feature, but you probably won't need it. Look at HD if you want that kind.

Turn off the circuit breaker or disconnect the wires of the heater when working on it, but do not disconnect the ground wire, usually green insulated or bare copper.

You usually get the followng types of water heater electrical problems:

1. Heater element burnout, which give you high resistance of the heater element. Resistance, measured across the terminals of the element after you remove at least one wire, should be around 12 Ohms for a 4500 Watt 240 Volt element. If the resistance is much different than that the element is shot or soon will be. Compare with a new element.
2. Heating element short to ground, which means that the resistance between either of the terminals and the body of the heater or ground wire is less than 100,000 Ohms, usually much less.
3. Switch welded closed, often the result of a momentary short circuit when an element fails.
4. Switch always open or always closed, usually the result of a failed sensing element.
5. Temperature sensing error, usually the result of a failed sensing element which may have been caused by a shorted element.

Here is a Bob Vila link for checking out heaters. It is made super-simple but I won't try to rewrite it. http://www.bobvila.com/FixItClub/Task/Repairing/FIG_ElectricWaterHeater.html

[fritz]

Thank you,my water heater now works perfectly,I followed the general advice and changed all the parts.
I recently installed a new water shutoff on my house,there is aground wire running from the outside water pipe to the water heater,can somebody give me its exact purpose and why I should hook it as it was??
Thank you.