A very long run from the meter.

I not looking for a complete answer from a forum. I'm certain that there will be a good bit of research before I can do this. At this point I don't know how much I don't know.

This forum has already been helpful, but finding info that applies to my situation is tough. Is there an online place I can go to learn this without having to search all over a forum? That way you only have to answer that first question .

The senario:

We are soon to be closing on a 10 acre property near Alton, MO. Very fortunately it has rural water. Oregon County PWSD #1.

Eventually ( in a couple years ) I want to run water to the back of the property which is just under a 1/4 mile. Call it 1200 feet. Optimally I'd like it to serve 2 bathrooms, washer, dishwasher, outside hydrant. Normal stuff for a 3 bedroom 2 bath house.

Immediately I'd like to run the water to where we plan to have temporary housing about 500 feet from the meter. Temporary as on a singlewide or large camper.

My questions:

If someone has the time..... can you give me a ballpark idea of:

Is it possible? 500 feet? 1200 feet?
(500 feet I think yes..with 1.5" pipe. https://terrylove.com/watersize.htm)

Pipe size? (I think the PWSD guy said 2" pipe. Blame me not him if wrong)

Pipe material? (It's a long run I quessing it will cost about a billion dollars.)

I have been advised to go 18" deep...?

How do trees affect where to run the pipe?

Is there something that can be placed near the meter that will shut off in case of failure of the downstream pipe?

What do you suggest so that the 500 foot run I put in now will also be usable for the 1200 foot run later? Or, that not even a reasonable idea?


Thanks in advance. Any help would be,.... Helpful.

Extending the chart, 2" looks like a better bet.
At 1,000 feet, the 1.5" gives 30 fixture units and the 2.0" gives you 80 units.
There appears to be almost no friction loss with the 2" pipe.

Labor is going to be pretty equal between the two, and cost only a little more.

I would use 2" PVC. It would give the best options for extending it, and also making intermediate connections for possible other purposes.

Coincidentally, I have the thread right below yours. Our run is right around 1/4 mile. Supposedly, the builder used two inch pipe, but I have not been able to confirm it yet. Watch out for the depth. 18 inches may be below the frost line, but it will get you hot water in summer and freezing cold in winter. That's what we have now, and ours is supposedly down 24 inches. You want that line down as deep as possible, so that the water temperature is as constant as possible, due to a constant or near constant ground temperature. Try for 4 feet it you can.

It makes a big difference. I have been on a number of wells and of course "city water" in a lot of places. I have never had such a seasonal variance in water temperature. It plays havoc with the washing machine temperature settings. That real long run will make a difference in the incoming water temperature. It will be the controlling factor.

Price to put in a line around here is $4.00 a foot, including materials. More, if you want it done right, like bedded in sand.

Thanks!

Ponder said:

Coincidentally, I have the thread right below yours. Our run is right around 1/4 mile. Supposedly, the builder used two inch pipe, but I have not been able to confirm it yet. Watch out for the depth. 18 inches may be below the frost line, but it will get you hot water in summer and freezing cold in winter. That's what we have now, and ours is supposedly down 24 inches. You want that line down as deep as possible, so that the water temperature is as constant as possible, due to a constant or near constant ground temperature. Try for 4 feet it you can.

It makes a big difference. I have been on a number of wells and of course "city water" in a lot of places. I have never had such a seasonal variance in water temperature. It plays havoc with the washing machine temperature settings. That real long run will make a difference in the incoming water temperature. It will be the controlling factor.

Price to put in a line around here is $4.00 a foot, including materials. More, if you want it done right, like bedded in sand.

Click to expand...

Thanks, So I guess I did hear him right.

I'm just glad it is possible. 1/4 mile seemed very far.

That is a perfect example of something I didn't know that I didn't know. I never gave a though for the ground getting hot. Thanks!

The ground looks to be very rocky, but I'll be sure to get as deep as I reasonably can.

Which brings up another question. I'll have to go through (under) a rocky dry creek bed. Are there any considerations there?

Also, does the soil above the pipe affect the depth of the frost line? Do rocky areas have a deeper frost depth?

I know a guy that puts in and maintains rural water lines for a living. He said his company has 2" mains that are as long as two miles on thinly populated side roads.

My line is in clay with very few rocks. It goes under several small creeks, only one of which is seasonal. I don't know that the water line sub did anything different at the creek crossings. I do know that he dug the trench with a backhoe. I have no idea why he didn't use a trencher. I wasn't around when the water line was put it. I wish I had been.

There was no evidence that he used sand to bed the line. I didn't find any trace of sand spillage along the route, as you might expect if sand was used. If yours will go through rocky ground I suspect that sand bedding will be of critical importance. Once the line is backfilled, there is bound to be settlement and rock movement for awhile. You might want to have a long talk with an engineer at the water district about how it should be done and who in the area is good at it.

If you have a lot of rock, I would guess that the line will cost a bit more than it does here in mud country. Possibly, a good bit more.

So what is the pressure of this pipe your connecting to? No one seems to care but me! LOL I think it may be important.

PVC is not extremely expensive. You can get it in long rolls, and will withstand all the pressure you are likely to have. Depth is important as previously pointed out. Trenching with a Ditch Witch would be the way to trench. I would advise a commercial company that have a big boy that can go deep. I can not say with certainty about sand, but it does seem to be a sensible thing to do in rocky ground. I have no knowledge of automatic shutoffs. They probably exist for big commercial operations, but at a very high price. A manual valve after the meter would be my choice. I'd also have a valve at the end of the run so the entire line didn't have to drain if there was a problem to be worked on. Other that the size of the line and the distance involved, not much different than a "normal" meter to house setup.

Are you going to have a source of water in case of a fire? That would be my excuse for a swimming pool

As for pressure, If that 1/4 mile is up the side of a hill, you might not have much...

quote; PVC is not extremely expensive. You can get it in long rolls

What kind of PVC do you use? IF it came in a roll, 2" would make a very BIG roll. Our water lines AND water mains are 4' and more deep, and we still only get "cold" water in the winter time.

hj said:

quote; Our water lines AND water mains are 4' and more deep, and we still only get "cold" water in the winter time.

Click to expand...

OK, but do you get "hot" (tepid) water in the summer?

Thanks HJ, I didn't think my answer through very well.

But the most important thing that every body has missed is you need a copper tracing wire,
so that 5 0r 10 years later you just might want to find that pipe to do add on's or whatever a tracer wire
is a lot better then finding with a backhoe ! !

Hackney plumbing said:

So what is the pressure of this pipe your connecting to? No one seems to care but me! LOL I think it may be important.

Click to expand...

I don't know the pressure. I'll have to ask the PWSD guy. But I imagine it will be an "It is what it is deal"

Fortunately there isn't alot of rise end to end. There will
be a low spot. I'm pretty sure there will be more water in the pipe between the meter and the low spot than the low spot and the end.
Am I guessing right in thinking that is better than the other way around?

hj said:

quote; PVC is not extremely expensive. You can get it in long rolls

What kind of PVC do you use? IF it came in a roll, 2" would make a very BIG roll. Our water lines AND water mains are 4' and more deep, and we still only get "cold" water in the winter time.

Click to expand...

When you guys say PVC do you really mean CPVC?
I didn't think you could use PVC for potable water.

I've been trying to price CPVC..... and YIKES! Is $90+ for 20' what I should I expect? If so then that 1/4 mile run will be waiting a while.

I guess I can look on the bright side. I can hand dig the trench faster than I can afford the pipe.

Do they even make 2" pex?

Thanks everyone for your advice!

MACPLUMB 777 said:

But the m ost important thing that every body has missed is you need a copper tracing wire,
so that 5 0r 10 years later you just might want to find that pipe to do add on's or whatever a tracer wire
is a lot better then finding with a backhoe ! !

Click to expand...

Now that, oddly enough I had thought about. I was thinking maybe keeping very careful measurements and records.

Maybe this is a way to make good use of that jar of pennies.
But I guess a tracer wire might be another way to go.

There is a pvc water pipe - it can generally only be used underground, and once into the structure, you'll need to convert to a type of pipe that can be used inside. This is not the pvc drain pipe, it is designed for water supply.

A call to your local building department should get you the frost depth and the requied depth for your water line. This is a minimum. It is a worst case situation, reached after a long period of cold. May not happen for the next 50-years, or may happen every year, several times. Not nice to split a pipe.

If there is no ultimate altitude change, the pressure will depend on the friction of the line. That is the reason why they suggested a 2" pipe - less internal friction so less pressure drop. But, if there's an altitude change, the pressure available at a higher point will be lower, and if it drops, the pressure will be higher. think water tower effect.

You'll give yourself a heart attack if you try digging a 1/4 mile trench 4 or 5 feet deep by hand. There are small Ditch Witches that you can rent, but they only go a couple of feet deep and I don't think that's deep enough to avoid very warm water in the summer. There are time when DIY is not a wise option, and this is one of them.

Gary,

That 1/4 mile run is probably 2 years down the road. I'm planning the first 500 feet hopefully before fall. I just want to make sure I don't have to redo the first 500 feet when I decide it's time for the rest of it.

So, it sounds like, although 1 1/2" would do for the first 500 feet, in order to plan ahead for the rest I need to use 2".

And yes I'll probably rent a trencher. But, I have a feeling it's going to be trench 5 feet, dig out a boulder, trench another 5 feet, dig out a boulder.....

Any Pro should automatically install a tracer wire, but checking to make sure he will/does isn't a bad idea. Don't count on using it yourself, though. Tracers cost $2,000 on up. That doesn't mean you don't need to install one if you dig the line yourself. The tracer wire needs to be there if something happens and you have to hire a Pro to dig up your line in an emergency, or some other type of utility needs to dig in its vicinity.

No matter who puts in the line, make sure you take lots of pictures and record your careful measurements. I'm digging blindly right now because I have neither, and can't justify the price of a tracer.