View Full Version : Changing shower tub trim and need help! Powers 410 Hydroguard
10-24-2011, 11:15 PM
I am doing a remodel of my bathrooms and want to change the showerheads, spouts and control levers in my 2 full bathrooms. I brought in a few contractors who said we "HAD" to do all this extensive stuff and long story short quoted anywhere from 6-10k just for the plumbing (NYC pricing, ha!) This is a highrise building and doing anything with opening up walls is a pain and expensive!
So I then had the maintenance guy from my building come in since he is doing a bunch of work on the side for us (installing new toilets, light fixtures, vanities etc), and he said that it's NOT necessary to do anything with the plumbing, I can just change out the trim with any trim kit I find that I like.
So here is my question:
Currently the showers use these "Powers Hydroguard 410" lever controls 14320143211432214323
He said they have a brass valve and he can supply any of the valves needed and any standard trim kit should work. I want to buy a mid-range Kohler trim set to replace these fixtures with. I know ideally it would be better to change out the whole shower body, but we simply don't have the kind of money it costs to do it right now.
What do I need to look for in a trim set to replace this? Should I still buy a kit that has a valve or no need. I'm looking for something on ************.com but confused.
Any help would be greatly appreciated to this total newbie!
10-24-2011, 11:29 PM
Your handyman doesn't seem to have a clue about the valve and the trim for it.
You have to use the trim that is made for the valve in the wall. Either that, or change the valve in the wall.
What is standard, is the shower arm. That threads into a 1/2" female fitting in the wall, so any standard shower arm, or shower head will work.
The tub spout is also a standard 1/2" pipe thread.
10-24-2011, 11:43 PM
You can replace a valve by using a reno plate, basically you open up the tile and replace the valve then use the plate to cover the larger hole that you made. For a pro your looking at about 2 hours. Thats not what the handy man in your bulding is LOL! What happens when he causes a leak and floods out the building? I would go with a licenced plumber who knows what he's talking about.
10-24-2011, 11:57 PM
Not to defend him as I have no dog in this fight, but he isn't a "handyman". He is a union member licensed plumber and electrician in NYC and one of the 20 year Maintenance men for the building who handles all the building and electrical plumbing. Maybe he didn't know exactly what I was asking via telephone, or rather, maybe I misunderstood what he was telling me.
I just checked and I found the updated version of those old Powers ones and it was over $400.00 just for the lever replacement.
So is there no Kohler or Grohe or nice replacement I can buy?
As for opening up the tile and replacing the valve, opening up the tile does not = opening up the wall does it? My building requires a 5k deposit to do anything that requires opening walls.
Again, thanks for you patience with me!
10-25-2011, 12:03 AM
So excluding the lever/valve issue, I can replace the Shower Head and the tub spout with most standard ones?
We are renting the apartment out and my Dad's given me a tiny budget so I have to find ways to update the bathrooms at minimal cost :(
10-25-2011, 12:04 AM
If your guy has done it, then let him find the parts.
That's not how it works in the rest of the world though. For the rest of us, you would normally find parts that mate up.
Manufacturers don't make parts that interchange.
I also can't use Toyota parts in my Mitsubishi.
The picture you posted shows a complete valve with trim. Can you buy just the trim?
And if you go to the Powers web site, you should be able to contact their tech support and they should know your options. That has to be a common question for them.
10-25-2011, 12:09 AM
I submitted a tech support request to them 2 days ago asking this question, which I'm sure you're right, must be common! Unfortunately, nothing heard back yet.
In the meantime, am I ok to go ahead and at least buy new shower heads and spouts?
10-25-2011, 12:16 AM
The shower head and spouts are generic, being standard 1/2" thread. Yes.
10-25-2011, 12:21 AM
This is the best forum EVER for people like me. Really appreciated and so glad I found it :)
10-25-2011, 03:03 AM
As for opening up the tile and replacing the valve, opening up the tile does not = opening up the wall does it? My building requires a 5k deposit to do anything that requires opening walls.
The valve is in the wall, so it looks like you would have to do the deposit to replace the valve.
10-25-2011, 06:43 AM
Well, you definitely can NOT just change out the trim with "any kit you like". That just doesn't work and if he told you that he is out of his mind. Now, Powers I think does make some kits to upgrade the 400. Check the Powers website, or find a large plumbing supply that deals with Powers.
I hear that NYC is a big place, so I don't know if this particular recommendation will help you:
New York Replacement Parts
1456 Lexington Avenue
New York, NY 10128-2507
You can use any POWERS trim that fits the model 410, but NOTHING made by Kohler, Moen, Delta, or ANY OTHER manufacturer will work. ANY "plumber" who tells you that you can get "can just change out the trim with any trim kit I find that I like", is NOT a plumber, regardless of how many years he has worked.
10-25-2011, 10:13 AM
Hey guys, so it seems that the maintenance guy and I were having a misscommunication. He thought i was talking about the head and spout and not the controller, which he said the same thing ya'll said.
Sooooo, I did find that updated version of the 410 but I don't see a way to change just the "look" of it. It seems like they only sell that whole thing with the valve or nothing. So confused. I submitted a tech support request days ago to Powers and no one replied back yet.
Jimbo I'm going to call that plumbing store now. Hopefully they can help me figure something out. Very frustrating that I so limited in options :(
10-25-2011, 08:28 PM
Jimbo, after speaking to the plumbing store you gave the contact info for (thank you) I was told that I am the LUCKY (ha) owner of a Powers unit that CANNOT be upgraded via any kind of trim. He said the new sleeker version of the 410 has a whole new valve and there's no way to just change the trim without upgrading the valve.
I know that you guys live around the country and everywhere is different, but when getting contractors in for estimates for the general bathroom remodel, I got quotes of anywhere from 6-10k JUST for the plumbing. Which I just don't have. So with that said, you said that it would take about 2 hours to open the wall tile and to make the changes to install a new valve and it shouldn't be that complicated a job for someone who is experienced with this kind of thing. Am I understanding that correctly. Because some of the guys tried to tell me I should replace the whole "shower body" etc etc etc and it would cost a fortune.
What (ball park estimate?) do you think I'm looking at cost wise for someone to come in to do the valve change and ONLY the valve change and is it ok (I know not ideal but ok) to do that and not the whole sha-bang?
Also, another technical question, I am having the shower walls re-tiled anyway but the company re-tiling doesn't do plumbing (isn't licencsed for plumbing I should say). The plumber would be the one to remove the tile around the valve and then patch the wall back correct? Just want to make sure I order things correctly.
Again, thanks so much for all your help guys and again, please forgive this "manicure and makeup" girls ignorance of all things plumbing. I did 2 kitchen and bathroom renovations in Florida and it was just WAY less complicated than this apartment in NYC and my contractor did 2 x the work for 3 x LESS the cost. The estimates and quotes from the NYC guys are so long and expensive and complicated, it's just a very different animal. I had the florida bathroom completely renovated with new tile, fixtures, shower valves, EVERYTHING for $2500.00 and in NY they are saying it's 10K JUST for the plumbing part. Head. IS. SPINNING!
10-25-2011, 08:42 PM
If you're having the tile redone, then the valve body would be exposed and much easier to replace. So, then the hardest part is getting the plumber and the tile guy to coordinate so the job can be done without them either interfering with each other or paying one to sit around while waiting for the other. Well, there is another issue: do you have an individual unit water shutoff? WIthout that, or shutoff valves in the wall, you'd have to shut the water off for the building, and that can be a major hassle and time consuming for it to drain down enough so new stufff could be soldered in (you can't solder pipes with water in them.
10-25-2011, 08:49 PM
We DO have individual shower water supply shut off and I've actually already had it shut off I believe. I will double check to be sure.
So assuming that's the case, then I basically need to coordinate the plumber with the tile guys so that the Plumber comes in to do his part after the tile guys remove the old tile and before they get ready to put in the new tile. Which of course, will be a PITA lol.
But replacing the valve and ONLY the valve is possible without having to change the whole shower body, right? I mean, this *should* be able to be done without it costing me two legs?
10-25-2011, 10:02 PM
It is hard to say how easy or hard it will be to retile, or if it really should be just retiled verses tearout completely and start over. But, once the tile is off (and you may find the only way to do that would tear up what's beneath so much it costs about the same to replace the whole thing), changing the valve is the easy thing. A full new shower could easily cost $6k or more in NYC. Depending on the age of the thing, the shower pan may be on borrowed time. It's really hard to tell.
Joe the Plumber
10-25-2011, 10:21 PM
If you are removing and replacing tile, and you have a way to shut off your own water, then changing the tub/shower valve is not that much work. You will never find a better time to do it.
Three things about your original posting which make it impossible for us to give any opinion on the pricing.
1. NYC. that makes access to your jobsite an unknown
2. High rise. This means elevators which can add immense time to the job, especially if they have to use the freight elevator.
3. Water shutoff. If there are not local valves for your unit or floor, (not the ones on the valve itself which will have to be removed), then the entire building may have to be shut off, which often means "after hours", and lengthy drain downs, which means additional costs.
4. "replacing the valve" IS "changing the whole shower body". The shower body IS the valve.
10-26-2011, 09:31 AM
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh ok, so changing the valve is changing the whole body. I got it. So I guess I have to find out about the local valves. Really sux that the building stuck us with this version of shower valves that is so costly to update :(
10-28-2011, 05:52 AM
So the tile guys are not taking the walls down to studs and said that they aren't going to be having the wall open. They re-tile apartments in our building often and I guess they can remove the tile in the tub surround without much damage. So with that said, do I just schedule the plumber to come and do it anytime before they tile (As opposed to trying to schedule him come in the middle of the re-tiling) ? If the tile guys wont be doing anything to make it much easier for the plumber to get into the wall to change the older shower valve/body what's the smartest way to go about this?
HJ btw, to answer your previous question, we DO have shut off for our unit ONLY, so they don't have to do anything with the building.
And lastly, while looking for the new replacements for the shower/tub since I can't use just new trim, I need to buy the sets that specifically say "Valve IN" or "Valve Included"? And is there anything else I need to be aware of when choosing the new showersheads/valve control/spout set?
Thanks for any feedback again guys!
10-28-2011, 05:15 PM
If you don't have access to the wet wall from say another room, then you'll need to make the hole bigger to be able to replace the guts. There are two ways around that, either the tile guys can patch it or you can use a remodel plate to cover the bigger hole.
10-28-2011, 07:22 PM
Got it! Thanks so much for your advice :)
10-29-2011, 06:01 AM
Out in the beach area where I used to work a lot, there is actually ONE high rise building ( 29 stories ). They snuck that in back around 1970 before the state slapped a 30 foot height limit on all building in the coastal zone. Anyway, I had to double my charges working there because I usually had to park 1/2 mile away and hoof it, ride the servants elevator which was hugely slow, etc. And in the back of your mind, you are always mindful that if you cause a plumbing leak, the damage could be in 6 or 7 figures!!!!!!!! I stopped going there.
So yes, a bathroom remodel will run you 10k easy. Tile work will be expensive because there is no place to hose out the buckets....they will be lugging buckets of mortar in and out of there all day long. A job which on guy could do will probably use a crew of 3 or 4
11-04-2011, 09:29 PM
So I've gotten 4 or 5 bids from Plumbers ranging from $600 per shower to $1250 per shower. The plumber we liked and trusted the most was of course, the most expensive. I also finally got on the phone with someone from Powers who was extremely nice and sympathetic to my cause of having a commercial shower body in my residential apartment and how that stunk for remodeling.
Anyway, she showed me the only Powers Trim kit they offer which is this one
I can't say it's much better than what's currently there and she agreed it's not much of an improvement aesthetically.
My question is this, the actual lever in the second photo, there is no possible creative way to get a part from a plumbing supply that could be used in place of that they may look at least slightly nicer? It's not just a metal piece with thread and a screw?
I am just clawing for any out of the box idea's that could possibly work to allow me not to break in the wall, change the S.b's, risk any unknowns and spend a small fortune.
Thanks again for your expertise and feedback! Ya'll are incredibly appreciated!
11-04-2011, 11:03 PM
There is no industry standard for trim pieces...their only requirement is that they fit their own valve body. So, anything you tried would be a crapshoot, unlikely to work, but you could get lucky. Problem is, you'd probably spend as much trying a bunch of different ones as just tearing the old one out and putting in a new one.
11-05-2011, 12:20 AM
One last question:
If I decide to go the conservative route and just change the showerhead and spout, is there a specific kind of spout I need to buy or I can pretty much buy any one I like?
11-05-2011, 08:46 AM
In a quick turn of events my dad has bitten the bullet and given me the green light to redo the shower bodies completely. With that said, the plumber we are hiring quoted me a Delta and an American Standard replacement, but as I posted before, I had it in my mind to go Kohler.
I just want to put in whatever brand will be the least trouble, most reliable and easy to fix and easy to upgrade when the time comes. Is Kohler ok or is there a reason to go with A.S. or Delta for the shower bodies?
Need to make a decision by Monday so appreciate your advice :)
11-05-2011, 01:28 PM
I'd go with the Delta. If you get the R10000 rough-in valve, you have lots of choices for trim and functionality. At a plumbing supply store, the rough-in valve and the trim are separate purchase items...in a big box store, they are often packaged together. You have a choice of pressure balance (PB) with no volume control (single-handle), PB with volume control (two handles or knobs), or thermostatic with volume control depending on which trim you choose (two handles or knobs). All of those meet the antiscald shower requirements and are likely to have alternate trims way into the future. With Kohler, IF you save the manual and part list, you can probably order the parts, but don't expect alternate trim or to find the parts locally...you'll have to order them, whereas, you can likely pick up the Delta parts locally in many places. In either, they would probably be available for free to the original owner from the factory, but sometimes you can't wait!
11-16-2011, 07:29 AM
So I just got off the phone with my Plumber who is super nice but SUPER rushed. I am ordering the shower bodies today and want to make sure I get what I want. He said the only "MUSTS" are that I get a dual Shower/Tub body with Integral Stops.
Which of these am I supposed to get (If I want to go with Kohler) ?
Kohler K-11748-KS Rite-Temp Valve with Diverter ? Is that the right one.
I'm ordering from here http://www.********.com/ NY replacement Parts
If order the Delta R10000 is there a specific version I need to get that has PB and integral stops?
11-16-2011, 03:48 PM
http://www.deltafaucet.com/search/results.html?q=R10000#axzz1dujnyrlK shows the choices of just the rough-in valve. I'd probably go with the R10000-UNWS, but it would depend on what your piping is, as to what's the best. The letters decode as UN- universal connection - either screw on or solder in; WS - with stops.
As said earlier in the thread, with this rough-in valve, you have a huge choice of trims and control means (including single handle, or two handles with either just temp and volume, or thermostat and volume). If you go to http://www.deltafaucet.com/bath/tubshower/filter.html#1873294718_ and select the R-10000 rough-in, and then specify what you want, it will show you your options. While Kohler makes some nice stuff, it is a major pain sometimes getting parts down the road. Delta's stuff tends to be backwards compatible...Kohler's seems to be the design of the day with little regard to backwards compatibility.
11-16-2011, 08:47 PM
I agree that Delta has many many more choices, but the problem is I don't actually like ANY of the delta choices of trim. Especially the tub spouts. If I get the Delta universal valve, can I put spouts different tub spouts /showerheads on their? I don't mind the levers, they are ok.
I called our plumbing supply store in NYC and they said they have Kohler parts and its not a problem. But yes True that there isn't a "universal" Kohler valve and I will be much more limited with choices of trim depending on which valve I choose.
The one I really love is the Grohe GR-PB101 Atrio Pressure Balanced Shower Trim with Multi Function Shower Head, Tub Spout, Shower Arm and Single Lever Handle
I just wish Delta had something that was even close to similar :(
11-17-2011, 10:58 AM
Neither the tub spout nor the shower head and arm are specific to a valve brand, so you can use any one you wish. Personally, I have Grohe stuff in my home, and like it. It's not all that old, so I can't say how it will age (the tub/shower valve stuff is about 6-years old now, no problems).
Kohler's parts book looks more like a phone book...so, while any one place may have a 'decent' supply, that doesn't mean they have what you'll need 10-20 years down the road. Often, the only place to get it is from the factory, and then they don't always have it, either.
11-17-2011, 11:02 AM
The local supply store told me to go Moen or Grohe. After looking some more, I think I'm going to go with the Hansgrohe iBox Universal Plus Rough-in Valve with Service Stop that has a bunch of trim options. Anyone have any objections or is this a good solution that gives me a range of price options for trim that should be upgrade able in the future?
11-17-2011, 12:41 PM
Hansgrohe and Grohe are two different companies...
11-17-2011, 12:49 PM
Doh!!!!! Well..... they had both apparently (Grohe and Hansgrohe) I went with the new Hansgrohe valve since it has the look I want, BOTH pressure balance and volume control in a single lever, and a good array of trims. I know Grohe is supposed to be the higher end of the two, but the reviews I read from people using the Hansgrohe shower faucets have been positive. My plumber may hate me now, oh well!
11-17-2011, 03:13 PM
Doh!!!!! Well..... they had both apparently (Grohe and Hansgrohe) I went with the new Hansgrohe valve since it has the look I want, BOTH pressure balance and volume control in a single lever, ...
They all are required anti-scald technology (pressure balance is one way to achieve this), so that isn't an issue here. All of the single handle valves I'm aware of give you full volume with no volume control, only temperature control (if the handle has two motions, rotate and twist, like some older ones, that may be possible). It starts cold, and goes warmer as you turn the valve futher, but there's no volume control - it's either on or off. That feature is available, but it requires two levers, knobs, or a combination.
11-17-2011, 10:19 PM
You're right. My apologies.
This is the one I got (with the Ibox universal plus rough)
S Thermostatic Trim w/Volume Control and Diverter
Thermostatic temperature control
Volume control and diverter for 2 outlets
Anti-scald 100-degree safety stop
Flow 8 GPM @ 44 PSI
Set your preferred water temperature
7/8" shallow extension set #13596xx0 (sold separately)
Requires iBox™ Universal Plus rough #01850181
Requires an iBox Universal Plus rough for installation. Available in drop down menu