View Full Version : Leaking copper pipe with green crap.
mz4wheeler
11-21-2005, 09:49 PM
I've attached 3 photos of my main water pipe with a SUPER SLOW leak. One drip every 10 minutes or so. It has green corroded stuff all around. In the photo, it is the top joint, the smaller 3/4" pipe with the 90 degree angle.
My question is, can I simply shut off the main water, drain the pipe, clean the fitting forst with a wire brush, followed by lots of flux, and re-solder it? That would be easiest.
Or should I refit a new section. The problem is that I can barely reach this pipe because of it's location. I believe I can hit it with a propane torch.
Thanks in advance!
Mike
Terry
11-21-2005, 10:52 PM
Heating the outside of the pipe won't do much for the leak.
Cutting out that section is the best solution.
bigrebnc1861
11-22-2005, 02:03 AM
My goodness some plumber didn't finish the job by wiping the joint down :rolleyes: . This is what I do when I have a leak, I drain the line down wipe the joint down with another layer of flux, and re-solder the joint useing MAPP gas instead of propane 8 times out of 10 this will work for me. But when it doesn't I will break the joint lose by re-heating the pipe and clean the fitting with a fitting brush, and re-sanding the pipe and adding flux . BUT REMEMBER ALWAYES USE MAPP GAS IT'S HOTTER THEN PROPANE AND SOLDER'S BETTER. After you have finished the job wipe your fitting down, because after time that green buildup of flux left on the pipe will wear your joint down.
I agree with bigrebnc1861 but I would also pull off the 90 and clean both peices of pipe and install a new 90 ($.50) I wouldn't use the old 90. Do it once and be done.
Once water enters a joint at a leak, the copper is contaminated and there is no way to get flux to flow into it anyway. Even a fairly new joint would be difficult to resolder properly after a leak. There is no way you would ever get a joint that is corroded, like your is, to accept solder. All you would do is create a solder bead at the surface of the joint, and that is probably what you had originally which is why it started to leak.
mz4wheeler
11-22-2005, 07:40 AM
Thanks to all for the advice. I think I need to pull off the old 90 (If I can) and put in a new one... If I can. This fitting is recessed about 2 feet and I may not be able to reach it. I barely had room for the camera [grin].
I did learn something new... The green stuff is flux. Need to clean it off.
Thanks again!
Terry
11-22-2005, 08:20 AM
Nothing is impossible,
Somethings just take more time and money.
A taller ladder may help, and heating ducts can be removed if needed.
bigrebnc1861
11-22-2005, 03:23 PM
Once water enters a joint at a leak, the copper is contaminated and there is no way to get flux to flow into it anyway. Even a fairly new joint would be difficult to resolder properly after a leak. There is no way you would ever get a joint that is corroded, like your is, to accept solder. All you would do is create a solder bead at the surface of the joint, and that is probably what you had originally which is why it started to leak.
Maybe I should have made myself a little more clear, when I said add a layer of flux. Adding a little more flux's only helps to break down the solder. and sometime when someone has a leak on copper is they did not allow the heat to flow all the way around the pipe, or they didn't allow the solder to flow around the pipe. That is when you can re-solder a copper joint.
chipshot
11-22-2005, 03:51 PM
So, what specifically does flux do?
mz4wheeler
11-22-2005, 04:40 PM
Maybe I should have made myself a little more clear, when I said add a layer of flux. Adding a little more flux's only helps to break down the solder. and sometime when someone has a leak on copper is they did not allow the heat to flow all the way around the pipe, or they didn't allow the solder to flow around the pipe. That is when you can re-solder a copper joint.
Are you saying that I could resolder the pipe?
bigrebnc1861
11-22-2005, 04:58 PM
Yes that is correct, just make sure you have the water drained off. For the most part 8 times out of 10 it will work. You can even sweat the fitting lose and replace it with a new one. But I would try re-soldering first, and then go from there. One more thing if the fitting start's to trun black that means you are burning it, and then you should replace it. I have even re-solder 3 inch copper that had a crack almost half way around the joint. The orignal connection was made by a ex-coworker
plumber1
11-22-2005, 07:28 PM
I really agree with the men who will cut that bad stuff off and redo with new.
Might not leak and might look ok BUT........
I'd feel better when I went home after being paid to do a good job.
Are you saying that I could resolder the pipe?
No, I am saying that it is almost impossible to resolder a joint properly once water has leaked through it, even if it is a new joint and especially if it is an old one like yours.
Gary Swart
11-22-2005, 09:22 PM
I can't give you the scientific explaination of what flux does, but from the practical side, flux literally sucks the molten solder into the joint. If you attempt to solder without flux, the solder will not flow into the joint and the joint will not only leak, it will pull apart. Obviously there is some kind of chemical reaction.
Flux alowes the soder to stick/flow on to copper (try to get soder to stick to bare copper) capilary action is what causes the soder to "sweat" or flow between the joints of the pipe and fitting. Personaly I like the pre tinning fluxes. I end up with maybe 1 bad joint a year.
The technical term for what flux does,,,, Apprenticeship 2nd year.
Flux promotes cappillary action,,,,the adhesion between dissimilar metals.
when the word is applied to metal work.
Can't believe I remembered that !
Gary Swart
11-23-2005, 09:59 AM
Like I said the solder sucks into the joint.
Kristi
11-23-2005, 10:24 AM
there is nothing more frustrating that I can think of than taking the time to drain the line, work up a serious sweat (on the joint as well as yourself) in a tight location only to find the problem still exists once the water is turned back on. Don't be tempted to work with what's there. Cut the whole freakin' thing out, tee and all - it's more soldering on your todo list, but worth knowing that it's all fixed now. By the looks of those photos, maybe this is the only one leaking, but you certainly have others well on their way to the same problem...!
mz4wheeler
11-23-2005, 12:05 PM
Hmm.. Well, I *TRIED* the easy way, and the solder would't stick for nothing, even after shining up the pipe and fluxing the hell out of it [grin]. Time was running out so I gave up and I'll cut it out tonight and replace the 90. After I re-pressurized the pipe, it leaked a little worse.
My wife wasn't impressed either [grin].
Terry
11-23-2005, 12:13 PM
I've never found that reheating a bad joint is ever easy.
It will waste time though.
It's not that I haven't tried it in the past though. I think every plumber has.
That's why our "first" response now is to just cut those things out.
bigrebnc1861
11-23-2005, 03:40 PM
mz4wheeler like I said earlier 8 out of 10 times it will work but there are those times that you will have to re-place your joint completely.
mz4wheeler like I said earlier 8 out of 10 times it will work but there are those times that you will have to re-place your joint completely.
Just wondering Y you said 8 out of 10 instead of 4 out of 5?
mz4wheeler
11-23-2005, 05:54 PM
Well, it wasn't easy, especially taking the old pipe apart, but I managed to fix it. I attached a photo of the result. Be kind, I'm a computer guy by trade [grin]. I have once again have regained the faith of my wife.
However, I must say... Sawing off the old pipe section brought a few butterflies [grin]. Plus I was also thinking that if I ran into trouble, what would it cost a plumber to come and fix it, especially on Thanksgiving!
Thanks to all who helped.
Mike
mz4wheeler
11-23-2005, 06:01 PM
mz4wheeler like I said earlier 8 out of 10 times it will work but there are those times that you will have to re-place your joint completely.
It probably woould have worked if I used a MAPP torch. I used propane which really sucked. I bought a new MAPP torch today and it really kicks ass!
Thanx
bigrebnc1861
11-23-2005, 07:00 PM
MAPP gas is the way to go, I tell the people at the office only send me MAPP gas, or I won't run any copper at all. By the way I looked at your pic of your soldering job, it doesn't look bad for someone who doesn't do plumbing for a living, and the tight spot you had to work in.
Terry
11-23-2005, 11:32 PM
I use Mapp gas too, but I still cut the bad fittings out.
It's not about the high heat, it's about cleaning the pipe and fittings.
I would like to see a picture of the old pipe with the fitting pulled off.
Often you will find a stripe of unsoldered copper, the reason for most leaks.
Hmm.. Well, I *TRIED* the easy way, and the solder would't stick for nothing, even after shining up the pipe and fluxing the hell out of it [grin]. Time was running out so I gave up and I'll cut it out tonight and replace the 90. After I re-pressurized the pipe, it leaked a little worse.
My wife wasn't impressed either [grin].
One of your problems was that you did not shine the pipe and fitting inside the joint where the real seal takes place, and you did not get the flux in there either. Flux keeps the material from oxidizing when it is heated, which allows the solder to flow into the joint. When you overheat the joint and the flux itself oxidizes you have to start over.
mz4wheeler
11-24-2005, 08:32 AM
I fingured so, but I couldn't even get the copper to sweat on the outside! I figured that it was because the water residue in the pipe was keeping it cool. If I used my new MAPP gas torch, it probably would have worked.
Anyway, I'm happy I had to buy that new torch... Now I can impress my wife in how FAST I can start a fire in the fireplace [grin].
One of your problems was that you did not shine the pipe and fitting inside the joint where the real seal takes place, and you did not get the flux in there either. Flux keeps the material from oxidizing when it is heated, which allows the solder to flow into the joint. When you overheat the joint and the flux itself oxidizes you have to start over.
speedbump
11-24-2005, 09:11 AM
Sorry I got here so late, I was going to save you all that trouble. I was going to suggest keeping the pie plate under the leak and installing a dehumidifier.
bob...
mz4wheeler
11-24-2005, 09:43 AM
Actually, I discovered this leak when I re-insulated the sauna a few months ago. The pipe is right above the sauna. I thought I may have started the leak by bumping the pipe, although it may have been leaking before we got the house. The leak was so slow that the water probably evaporated soon after.
Plan "A" was to leave the pie plate in place and see if the leak seals itself [grin]. This was all fine because this room had a suspended ceiling and I had access to it. Then my wife wanted a "NORMAL" ceiling [doh!]. I couldn't convince her of the "merits" of a suspended ceiling while in the back of my mind this leak was festering.
When I was hanging the 2'x6' beams for the sheetrock thats when I discovered that the pie pan seems to always have about 1/16" of water. Once I hung the 2'x6' beams, there would be no way I could possibly reach it anymore. I was stuck... I HAD to fix it.
Procrastination is the thief of time.
--Edward Young, The Complaint: Night Thoughts
Sorry I got here so late, I was going to save you all that trouble. I was going to suggest keeping the pie plate under the leak and installing a dehumidifier.
bob...
speedbump
11-24-2005, 11:16 AM
Well, so much for my master plan!
bob...
mz4wheeler
11-25-2005, 10:32 PM
From this discussion I take it that it's pretty important to clean off the flux. Is there some product that is favored to neutralize the flux to prevent future corrosion? What about pipes that already have green crap but are not yet leaking? Is there a product to prevent additional corrosion?
Thanks
My goodness some plumber didn't finish the job by wiping the joint down :rolleyes: . This is what I do when I have a leak, I drain the line down wipe the joint down with another layer of flux, and re-solder the joint useing MAPP gas instead of propane 8 times out of 10 this will work for me. But when it doesn't I will break the joint lose by re-heating the pipe and clean the fitting with a fitting brush, and re-sanding the pipe and adding flux . BUT REMEMBER ALWAYES USE MAPP GAS IT'S HOTTER THEN PROPANE AND SOLDER'S BETTER. After you have finished the job wipe your fitting down, because after time that green buildup of flux left on the pipe will wear your joint down.
bigrebnc1861
11-26-2005, 02:56 AM
Just wondering Y you said 8 out of 10 instead of 4 out of 5? From 16 and a half years exp. I have had to fix around around 150 leaks, some mine but for the most part re-work for someone else's mistake :rolleyes: and out of the 150 leaks 30 I have had to re-place the whloe joint with new fittings.
[QUOTE=speedbump]Sorry I got here so late, I was going to save you all that trouble. I was going to suggest keeping the pie plate under the leak and installing a dehumidifier.
That reminds me of a dishwasher repair one of our plumbers made decades ago. It was in a convent and he was sent to repair the leak. A couple of years later it started to leak into the basement again so I went to repair it. He had put a metal pan under the leak. It was a small leak and the water evaporated faster that it leaked. But he had used a steel pan instead of aluminum so it rusted out and started to leak again.
[QUOTE=speedbump]Sorry I got here so late, I was going to save you all that trouble. I was going to suggest keeping the pie plate under the leak and installing a dehumidifier.
That reminds me of a dishwasher repair one of our plumbers made decades ago. It was in a convent and he was sent to repair the leak. A couple of years later it started to leak into the basement again so I went to repair it. He had put a metal pan under the leak. It was a small leak and the water evaporated faster that it leaked. But he had used a steel pan instead of aluminum so it rusted out and started to leak again.
So......... you just put an aluminum one back. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=hj]
So......... you just put an aluminum one back. :rolleyes:
No, even though I was an apprentice at the time, I was the "boss" so I had to do it cosrrectly. Although I suppose I could have done like I did with a terribly "gunky" stopped up toilet once and call back and have one of the journeymen do it.
Lakee911
11-29-2005, 06:28 PM
Plan "A" was to leave the pie plate in place and see if the leak seals itself [grin].
I seemed to have opened up a pin hole leak in a pipe when I installed my new hot water heater the other weekend. I've let it slowly (drop every 10min) leak hoping it'd seal itself, but so far I've not been lucky. Installed a new utility sink and drained everything a few days ago and while pipes were empty I forgot to fix it! Grrr! Tonight I wrapped a scrap of rubber around it and threw a clamp on it. Ha..I'm lazy. It's slowed down though.
(Yes, I'll fix it next time pipes are empty.)
Jason
Jason Doliver
10-06-2011, 10:58 AM
Yes that is correct, just make sure you have the water drained off. For the most part 8 times out of 10 it will work. You can even sweat the fitting lose and replace it with a new one. But I would try re-soldering first, and then go from there. One more thing if the fitting start's to trun black that means you are burning it, and then you should replace it. I have even re-solder 3 inch copper that had a crack almost half way around the joint. The orignal connection was made by a ex-coworker
ha sounds like u worked with my brother. ;) , but i must agree that mapp gas works better and resoldering is the quickest solution, but the flux is the impt part too.. i will say to keep damp cloth and flux ready for after you resolder joint wipe it down with both so that bead of solder doesnt bubble up as shown
Lakee911
10-06-2011, 12:24 PM
I seemed to have opened up a pin hole leak in a pipe when I installed my new hot water heater the other weekend. I've let it slowly (drop every 10min) leak hoping it'd seal itself, but so far I've not been lucky. Installed a new utility sink and drained everything a few days ago and while pipes were empty I forgot to fix it! Grrr! Tonight I wrapped a scrap of rubber around it and threw a clamp on it. Ha..I'm lazy. It's slowed down though.
(Yes, I'll fix it next time pipes are empty.)
Jason
Holy thread resurrection batman! Coincidentally I had the water off on Saturday. Forgot about that link. Rubber still holding up! LOL
Hello-
I have a similar problem regarding an existing leaking copper fitting. My fitting is a tee (1x3/4x3/4) that is leaking from one 3/4 branch connection. Some of the responses discuss making an in-place repair by refluxing the joint, heating with MAPP gas, and then soldering the leaking joint. I assume that you are heating the fitting to accomplish this. By heating the Tee fitting, will it cause the other Tee branch joints to be compromised? Would you flux and re-solder all the branch joints again?
I did buy a new fitting ($12.50) to replace the old one, but if just resoldering the one(?) joint on the Tee would work, then I would try it. Access is difficult, especially if I have to remove the entire fitting and replace.
Thanks
Gary Swart
01-28-2012, 04:39 PM
ha sounds like u worked with my brother. ;) , but i must agree that mapp gas works better and resoldering is the quickest solution, but the flux is the impt part too.. i will say to keep damp cloth and flux ready for after you resolder joint wipe it down with both so that bead of solder doesnt bubble up as shown
You can not apply flux and solder to a leaking joint. Once water has gotten into the leak, the joint is contaminated and it must be disassembled and completely redone. Re soldering a leaking joint will not work. Soldering 101 part 1