Acid neutralizer backflushing

[jimmym]

I'm getting blue stains in my tub, so after some research... My well water has a pH of 5.74. So, before any further damage is done, I'm installing an acid neutralizer.
1) Why do these need to be backflushed? I have a whole house particulate pre-filter that will be installed before the neutralizer and I thought the media is sacrificial.
2) 5.74 is pretty low. I've read about people complaining about acidic water at pH6.5. Should I get a larger than usual neutralizer? Or use different media?
3) What is the order in which I should install these? Pre-filter -> neutralizer
-> surge tank.

Thanks all.

[PEW]

Pre filter first.

Depending on the make of neutralizer, it may need to be installed backwards, inlet becomes the outlet. In other words you want to introduce the inlet water to the bottom of the tank and feed the house off the top. This keeps the media from packing, which in time reduces the flow.

Paul

[jimmym]

So the backflush isn't really to purge contaminants, it's to keep the media bed "un-packed". OK.
Most neutralizers I see have a backflush valve/timer. Who makes one without this?

[speedbump]

We all sell filtration. Gary and I argue about the necessity of back-washing or not back-washing. I use an in out head and do like PEW suggested. Going in the out and out the in.

Water is different all over the country, so what works for Gary may not work for me etc.

The idea of your salesman telling you back-washing may be a matter of > opinion, greed or necessity. Your call there.

I would look into the stats on your well. I know the surface water wells in my area are around 15 to 20 feet deep, full of chemicals from farming etc. And the water is just plain nasty. I refuse to try to clean this water up for people. I recommend a new "deep well" for health reasons if nothing else.

bob...

[jimmym]

I would look into the stats on your well. I know the surface water wells in my area are around 15 to 20 feet deep, full of chemicals from farming etc. And the water is just plain nasty. I refuse to try to clean this water up for people. I recommend a new "deep well" for health reasons if nothing else.
bob...
I had a quality and quantity test done during purchase of the home. Nothing nasty in the water. It's >100 ft deep.

I just don't want to have to run a drain pipe to the other side of the basement to get to the septic pipe. Also, to backwash, would I have to run the pump if the surge tank is after the neutralizer? Sounds like I would.

Pump->Prefilter->Neutralizer->Tank->House

[speedbump]

What is a surge tank?

[jimmym]

What is a surge tank?
Surge tank,
Well tank,
Not exactly sure what to call it. I have a well. The pump charges a tank that has an internal bladder. Pump turns on at 50 PSI and off at 70.

[speedbump]

Now I understand, you mean the Bladder tank.

OK, the proper order should be: Pump > Bladder Tank > Neutralizer.
Notice I left out the prefilter.

The pump would have to run some when you are back-washing if you go that way.

With the in/out head, there is no back-washing.

bob...

[PEW]

Ionics is one we have had available on the east coast.

Paul

[jimmym]

Notice I left out the prefilter.
bob...
Bladder Tank. Gotcha.

Why no prefilter?

I see 1 cu.ft. and 2 cu.ft models.
Is the difference flow capacity or pH neutralization ability in very acidic water, or just longer time between re-fills?

[speedbump]

They are more trouble than they are worth. If you have anything in your water that needs to be removed this is not the filter you need. Unless you like buying filter cartridges and having bad pressure all the time because of them.

The neutralizer we sell is a simple Structural Fibers 9" X 48" tank with In/Out head, 1" distributor tube and 100 lbs. of Calcite for just over $200.00 plus shipping. It is as easy to hook up as that prefilter you have but will actually do something.

The difference in 1 or 2 cu. ft. models would be flow rate and the amount of calcite you can put in the tank. Unless you have a bunch of teenagers and a lot of bathrooms, a 1 cu. ft. should be fine.

bob...

[jimmym]

bob,
The existing whole house filter is just a sediment filter. I was going to retain it as a pre-filter to remove particulates before entering the neutralizer. If it's not really required, then I'll get rid of it.

Where are you located? $200 sounds awfully reasonable.

Thanks for all the help.

So far, just me, the wife and 2 daughters (more to come).
Perhaps the 2 cuft would do better.

[speedbump]

I just edited my last post to finish answering your question that I previously forgot.

It's up to you what size you buy, but I would thing a 1 cu. ft. would be fine for your family, besides it's bigger than your original plumbing already. The plumbing should be 3/4".

I would truly get rid of the so called "whole house filter" that term just kills me. Unless you have a bunch of junk in your water that you can see floating around. And if that is the case, that "whole house thing" isn't going to last a week.

I am located in Florida, hear Tampa. You don't have to spend a lot of money on one of these as there is no head (backwash) no electric required and calcite is far less expensive than media for softening or iron removal etc.

bob...

[jimmym]

OK, bob. Sounds good.
Could you email me directly with prices for both 1 and 2 cuft models
without the media?
I live in Massachusetts so shipping 100+ pounds of pellets and 25 pounds of fiberglass would be expensive.
I can just get the media locally.

[jimmym]

I ordered one of your 1cuft neutralizers. I have a friend that was diagnosed with acidic water (blue stains, etc). So I asked him what he had done about it. Well, he and his wife had a system installed for "a couple of thousand dollars". I'll almost feel bad if I tell them I spent a couple of hundred.

If I plumb it in after the bladder tank, will the metal fittings at the tank suffer from the acidic water?

[speedbump]

Anything metal will suffer from acidic water. But not at the rate that I would worry about it. The tank will probably experience a busted bladder long before the metal fittings will show any signs of wear.

The neighbor..... I wouldn't tell him.

bob...

[jimmym]

Should I be using calcite or corosex or mixed in the neutralizer?
My pH is kind of low. 5.74.

[speedbump]

I would mix them. 80% Calcite and 20% Corosex.

bob...

[PEW]

Would suggest you plumb in a bypass for those times you want to clean it out and recharge it, if it does not have that built into it.

Paul

[jimmym]

Bob,
Should I mix them together? Or layer them?
Should I worry about the media "lifting" and blowing out the exit piping?

PEW,
I plan to do just that. I'll have unions on either side, isolation valves, and a bypass. Not to mention in and out pressure gauges.

[speedbump]

It sounds like your way ahead of all of us. Have you ever thought of getting into the installing business?bob...

[jimmym]

It sounds like your way ahead of all of us. Have you ever thought of getting into the installing business?bob...

Thanks for the compliment.

I'm a mechanical engineer by education. Perhaps that's where I get it.
If it can be built, it should be built well. I think that would be my downfall. I'd just take too damn long!
I like to have everything look good as well as operate efficiently. That's why I've been killing you with questions! The more I learn about this stuff the more I realize how little I know. I'm not too proud to admit I know very little about this stuff. Sure, the principals of fluid dynamics and thermodynamics all apply but moving from theory to the field is another thing entirely.

You should the see the hydronic system I've designed to replace the existing system. :-). Baseboard, radiant floor, DHW, DHW recirc. (insert Tim Allen grunting here). Let's see if reality reflects theory.

[Gary Slusser]

Yes you need a mixed bed, and careful of what "calcite and corrosex" you use; there are huge differences in them from one brand/type to another.

Although I agree with Bob on the prefilter, they are useless, I say that with an upflow model you will over correct the pH at first and then it probably won't be raising your pH to 7.0 during peak demand flow rates. After over correcting stops (the corrosex will be used up), the calcite alone won't be capable of raising the pH to 7.0.

Sorry Bob, personally, they should outlaw upflow AN filters. The bottom basket clogging up is why the need for prefiltering. A blocked bottom basket shuts off your water eventually, before that it makes live miserable. And the mineral gets dirty which reduces flow and the dirt can not be removed because there is no way other than replacing the mineral. And unless the tank is a TDH (top dome hole) type, you have to remove the filter from the plumbing to add new mineral and there's no way to backwash the dust out or the old mineral of dirt, so you're adding new on top of dirty... not good. About the only good in an upflow AN filter is the purchase price, but the cost is always higher than a correctly sized backwashed model. Cost being purchase price + maintenance + all damage done to plumbing and fixtures if the acid neutralizing doesn't work right...

I've treated many wells with even lower pH than your water has. I've sold one upflow many years ago, and never again. All filters and softeners have a specific service flow rate (SFR), totally dependent on the volume of mineral or resin only. The volume dictates the size of the tank used, the size of the tank dictates the control valve that can be used. The control valve has to be capable of backwashing the volume of mineral AND the well water system must be capable of delivering the gpm and pressure required to do that.

That's why you don't see larger than 2.0 cuft AN filters; the mineral is too heavy for most well water systems to backwash it properly. And since all waters contain invisible dirt, backwashing is the best way to go, and IMO the only way to go if you want to protect the plumbing and fixtures and be much more service free as far as the equipment goes. Also, all mineral manufacturers give the OEM/dealer the backwash requirements, if upflow were to be used, why would they give backwash requirements? Why do you see very few dealers selling upflow, OR why do you see the majority of dealers selling backwashed...? Could it be we don't want unsatisfactory results and lawsuits?

All backwashed models have a settle rinse, to compact the bed. Upflow expands the bed every time you run water in the house... That does not allow proper time for the neutralizing of acidic water. The need to backwash is to prevent channeling which prevents the mineral from raising the pH.

IMO, a 1.0 cuft is too small for a family of four, and your pH BUT the SFR of the filter is way lower than a 2.5 or larger house will require.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[jimmym]

Gary,
Thanks for your input. It's always good to hear both pros and cons. I''ve already switched to the 1.5 cuft. I don't have the experience of either you or Bob. So all I can do is use the information, not personal experience, to make my decisions. You may be right. Bob may be right.
If Bob's right, I've saved hundreds of dollars. The cheapest backwash type I've seen is like $600. I'll be testing my water afterwards for a while to make sure things are OK. If I need to, I'll switch the plumbing around and try it as a downflow with my own backflush arrangement. To backflush I'd have to run a drain pipe across the basement. Still I'm out a few more bucks in pipe and valves.
If you're right, and the whole upflow thing is crap. I'll still have to buy some expensive downflow unit and still have to plumb a drain across to the basement. So I'm really only out the couple hundred I spent on the downflow.

As far as backflush volume. I'm not sure. I have a bladder tank about the size of a 55 gallon drum at 70 PSI and it's about 3 feet of 1" pipe away from the neutralizer. During the quality and quantity test done during purchase, the well produced 8+ GPM for 5 hours. We'll have to see. Anyway, upflow, downflow, sideflow, I'm not blowing $300 on an electronic backflush valve. I'll find a manual one somewhere.
I'm a bit of a cynic anyway. People want to sell you expensive things for other reasons than your own well being. That's why a friend was sold a neutralizer for a couple of grand.

[speedbump]

I agree there may be problems with his upflow, however in my area we have several of these in service and have had zero problems. Our water is just different than yours in your area.

If he does have problems and needs to go to backwash, all he needs to do is install the backwash head on the tank he has now. He needed the tank anyway. So no harm in trying it this way first. And no plumbing of the drain line yet.

bob...

[Gary Slusser]

Gary,
Thanks for your input. Anyway, upflow, downflow, sideflow, I'm not blowing $300 on an electronic backflush valve. I'll find a manual one somewhere.
I'm a bit of a cynic anyway. People want to sell you expensive things for other reasons than your own well being. That's why a friend was sold a neutralizer for a couple of grand.

Although you can't compare internet prices with local dealers that have to show up to install and/or service their equipment, I partially agree that your neighbor was taken. Yet very obviously you haven't checked my prices or my reputation. You can do both with a quick google search for "Gary Slusser" or "Quality Water Associates" with the "". And you can check google groups for my name and that will take you back to Jan '97, eventually. I've been helping people on the internet with questions such as yours since then; at no charge and with no obligation. So I'm pretty sure I don't fall into that description of a salesman, actually I've been telling people to stay away from that type for roughly 25 years.

BTW, I have a very good manual backwash filter valve. :)

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[jimmym]

Well, as soon as the parts are installed and I get the whole thing running, I'll post pH results. We'll see what this thing does with my water.
Gary, didn't mean to lump you in with the "other" salesman. Too often, all you ever hear about are the bad guys, which leaves to good guys getting painted with the same brush.
If the pH isn't corrected enough, I'll switch it to downflow.

[jimmym]

Well, things have been running for a couple of months now with GREAT results. Final installation is Pump->CSV->tank&switch->upflow neutralizer.
Just after the neutraliser I have a hose bib. I've connected a large garden hose to this and opened it up outside during a "flow test". This flows way more water than my tub/kitchen can. The pump holds about 45 PSI (after the AN) indefinitely with the hose running.
Water quality/taste has improved immeasurably. I don't have a point of use carbon filter anymore. I have all the flow I need and pressure drop at maximum use is never more than a few PSI.
It uses about 1/2-3/4" of media per month.
All my plumbing is now CPVC so I'm not too concerned with pH now.

[Gary Slusser]

I'm glad to hear it's working well. I think what saved you is the CSV, otherwise the pressure fluctuation would be a problem and your flow may have been reduced.

You didn't say what the pH is.

To raise the pH to 7.0, the filter's SFR gpm has to be equal to or greater than the peak demand (total gpm used) of all water use gpm. That's with both the sink and shower and laundry etc. running at the same time; or how ever you use water. So what is the pH when you use the max gpm at the hose bib?

Thanks for the feedback.

[jimmym]

I'll have to get a pH test kit. I suppose a pool test kit will work. The nearest 10th should be close enough.
It'll be interesting to see what the pH does based on flow rate. At work here, they were throwing away a fiberglass tank like the one I have only bigger. This thing was about 12" across and 5' tall. Perhaps it's still in the dumpster.

[pooperscooper]

speedbump can you give me a # or e-mail me with info on how to order these tanks? thanks.