basement shower drain

[DanAK]

I’m replacing a leaking fiberglass shower with a custom tiled one in my basement. The old one is all ripped out and I am down to concrete floor with a 2” copper drain pipe extending up about 1 ¼”.) I can’t seem to find a suitable drain. They all seem to be too big. They seem designed to fit larger (and PVC, not copper) drain pipe, and also seem to be at least 4” high.

If I use some kind of adapter to change from copper to PVC I’ll be making the drain even higher.

It seems a drain sort of like used for bathtubs, that slips down inside with a sealing collar would be great. But I haven’t seen anything like that suitable for a tiled shower, with weepholes.

Is there some solution short of chopping out the embedding concrete floor?

[kreemoweet]

No, there is not, unless you want to end up with a ridiculously high shower floor. Showers require special drains, and there is a bit involved in figuring where to
place them, along with all the other details of shower construction.

[johnfrwhipple]

Most bathtubs are piped with copper it seems in high rise projects around Vancouver. In most private homes I see cast iron or ABS.

Connecting to an old copper line is so simple. You can get "No-Hub, MJ, Fernco" fittings that will fit over the copper pipe and then tie into 2" lines. They are labelled with funny code like ' 2" copper to 2" ABS/PVC ' and available online or at any good plumbing wholesaler. I have about 4-6 of every kind in my van.

It's nice to lower the vertical section of pipe and this can be done with a pipe cutter designed to enter a pipe and cut or by removing more concrete and using regular methods.

With your drain set up as is we could install a new three piece clamping drain in about one hour. If the hole was wide open about 10 minutes.

You could install a Proline Drain from Quick Drain USA with a 2" - 2" copper MJ.
You could install an ACO flanged drain the same way.
You could go 2" copper MJ to 2" ABS OR PVC with a short length of pipe and drop a Nobel Drain on top
You could go 2" copper MJ to 2" ABS or PVC with a short length of pipe and install a three piece clamping drain;
this would let you install any regular drain like a CanPlas, Zurn or Watts

or a linear drain from My Shower Grate Shop, ACO, Luxe etc. You could even install a Kerdi drain over that pipe but it is harder to check the connection visually because of the huge flange on the Kerdi drain.

Remember that almost no tile crews carry insurance to hook up shower drains. Make sure a plumber does this if your a GC or builder. If it's your own single detached home you might be allowed but bring the inspectors down to make sure your on the right track.

Always flood test your projects. 1- 3 days is code.

When designing this new shower think about first what it's going to look like. Visit www.houzz.com (http://www.houzz.com) for design ideas. Once you have a vision - work backward and find out what type of setting material and grout you have access to and like. You will find many tile stores and tile manufactures require the use of modified thin-set. The folks at John Bridge are nice and many times helpful but you will find that most of the helpful posters only recommend Kerdi and with Kerdi you need un-modified thinset. With Ditra you can use both under the Ditra if you have plywood but they recommend modified most times and over Ditra its' always un-modified, unless you use Grani Rapid and Schluter says it's OK. Even then I've heard Schluter say don't use the liquid with Grani and Mapei (who makes it) says always use it. So confusing I know.

Easier to use Nobel TS, Hydro Ban, Aqua D, Red Guard, Wedi or just about ever other product that doesn't have these back and forth rules.

Send me a picture or post one here and you will have a few plumbers chime in and tell you what you can do. Don't ask a tile guy how to hook up a drain. Check your local codes and find out what you can do.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Hydro Ban - Vancouver Bathroom Waterproofing/Screenshot2011-08-25at73929PM.png

This is a 29th floor Penthouse Guest Bathroom. There used to be a tub. We tied in this CanPlas clamping drain into a 1 1/2" Copper drain line.


http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Quick Drain USA - Vancouver installation/MapeiQuickDrainUSA.jpg

Quick Drain USA line drain tied into a 1 1/2" copper line. Here we could reach in and cut out the copper and the plumber used a fire rated 1 1/2" PVC. We added the fireblocking and prepared the slope.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Quick Drain USA - Vancouver installation/P7220032.jpg

Another condo. 1 1/2" copper to Proline drain.

[hj]

You need a drain with a rubber seal for the pipe, but THEN you need to order the rubber seal that fits 2" copper pipe. ALL the proper drains wil be about 2"-3" above the concrete so you can install the PROPER membrane and mortar/concrete sub base under the tile.

[DanAK]

Thanks for the replies.

What I’m hearing is I’m going to have to break out some concrete around my drain pipe, even for drains like the Proline or ACO (which I hadn’t considered but do look great). Like many projects this started as “just” a little leak and keeps growing in size and scope at each new revelation. I’d hoped to avoid breaking out the concrete to not only avoid that extra work and potential for a new round of issues, but also the risk of damaging the embedded copper drain. But of course I want to do it right – I sure don’t want to have to revisit it or leave a mess for someone else down the road. This is what I've got, 2" copper coming up about 1 1/4 inches 13983

All I’ve found available around here are a plastic 3 piece like this: 13981 or a metal one, slightly bigger like: 13982

I now see a few more styles online, but still nothing like I was hoping – sort of something like the Davke 4000 but designed with weepholes for a membrane/tile installation. And would have a minimal height so I could keep the final level of the shower floor to something reasonable. But since that doesn’t seem to exist I guess I need to chop out some of the concrete to make room for an adapter and drain.

Along that line, will a masonry blade on my circular saw, masonry chisel and hand sledge get it done? Any trick on protecting the copper pipe? Or will that not matter anyway?

As far as waterproofing the pan, I was planning on using a rubber (neoprene?) membrane available at Home Depot with a 3 piece drain, since that’s pretty much all I’ve seen available around here. They have red guard too, but I was thinking that’d be a little riskier in making it all good and water proof. The Kerdi stuff is pretty convincing in its waterproofing and quality and ease though. I think I’d have to order it if I was going that way. I hadn’t been aware of most of the other stuff mentioned, like Nobel and Wedi, etc.

Thanks for your help.

[geniescience]

A liquid trowel on membrane like Redgard (and others) can be good for you. Read the Redgard site. You don't need to go down and open up space for weepholes when you use Redgard (and others like it.).

[geniescience]

... ALL the proper drains wil be about 2"-3" above the concrete .... PROPER membrane and mortar/concrete sub base ... John Whipple is right in this case, and HJ is wrong in this case.

[jadnashua]

Sometimes, you really need to tear up the concrete. It's hard to say, but the copper line (and trap?) could be corroded. The only way to find out is to tear some concrete up. You'll need to make your connection below where you currently have access in order to keep the pan height reasonable, and, in the process, you'll be able to see the condition of the piping buried there.

There are numerous ways to build a shower that work well; the method you mention with a pre-slope, liner, setting bed is a decent, traditional method. I prefer a surface membrane rather than a liner embedded below a bunch of cementitious bulk. While RedGard is capable of making your waterproof layer, I prefer some other materials. All of the tested, proven shower construction methods are described in the TCNA handbook (Tile Council of North America). If you follow any one of them, you'll have a quality, good performing, long-lasting shower.

John has some ongoing disagreements with the pros over at www.johnbridge.com (http://www.johnbridge.com). 'Shop' both sites and if you're fair, I think you'll find them quite helpful.

[johnfrwhipple]

How deep are you to the water level? From the exsiting grade?

JW

[DanAK]

How deep are you to the water level? From the existing grade?

JW
"water level" meaning ground water? That's not a problem. It's a split level house, this floor is about 4' below grade and water table is much below that. No issues with ground water.

On other thoughts, I'm pretty confident the drain itself is OK. Water is visible in the trap and when there was a shower it didn't have any troubles there. It had good drainage, no backing up. The leak was almost certainly from the original drain to fiberglass pan connection and to drain itself. It actually wasn't connected! It had an open bottom metal cup resting on the concrete (just with the weight of the shower surround)with the drain pipe coming up in the middle.The cup had a trim ring attaching it to the shower pan, but it was loose and of course no way to reach the nut underneath, which was horribly corroded anyway. I'm not sure if it was caulked at the cup to concrete/drain interface with something like oakem or just 40 years of hair and gunk. Water would have to fill the cup the 1 1/4" before spilling down the drain. I assume the cup is part of some original old drain that someone either removed the rest of somewhere along the line or possible even originally DIY installation and couldn't get to fit, as it was also off center to the drain pipe. It didn't get much use by us until fairly recently. Amazingly it didn't apparently leak much - tablespoons per shower. And due to some 'creative' framing and layout it had a ways to go before finally appearing in the next room as a wet baseboard and carpet. By the time I started ripping it open of course there was plenty of rot.

Thanks again for your replies.

[johnfrwhipple]

DanaK I mean to the water in the pipe - the water level inside of the buried P-Trap.

Is there 3" from the slab to that level? Is there 7".

Copper is pretty soft material and easily cut.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/New%20Drain%20Hook%20Up%20To%20Old%20Copper%20Pipe/Screenshot2011-09-19at53733AM.png

You can see an "No-Hub" fitting in the hole. That is a 1 1/2" copper to 2" ABS/PVC fitting.

[johnfrwhipple]

...John has some ongoing disagreements with the pros over at www.johnbridge.com (http://www.johnbridge.com). 'Shop' both sites and if you're fair, I think you'll find them quite helpful.

Hey Jim if you plan to enlighten the internet world with my "Issues" with the John Bridge Forum please expand a little and explain that I have asked for mis information to be removed and they won't. That I do not care for the "Verbal Digs" to Canadains on a regular basis "Eh". And my largest complaint is that with any question the manufactures guidelines are opening preached but with Kerdi and Ditra they bend the rules for some reason and this is tolerated. Jim your a big writer on John Bridges web site and you send people over there for help - you know all this. Thanks for bringing it up again so I can restate my stand. On the John Bridge web site the go to method of shower construction is Kerdi. If your not pushing it your in for a debate. If you describe any Kerdi install as being hard "Puff" your postings can disappear. These simple points make me believe that the John bridge forum site is a marketing site first and foremost - so I stopped writing over there. But again Jim you know all this.

There are helpful posters on Contractor Talk. I help out there as well. Stop by over there for a third opinion.

There are helpful posters on Garden Web. Stop by there. For a fourth.

There are helpful posters on many Flooring sites. Plumbing sites. Fine Homebuilding and on and on. But the plumbers are here on Terry's site and there is no way I will listen to a tile guy who is pushing Kerdi over a plumbing site that has plumbers watching over these threads - no way!

The question to ask yourself is why is the person helping you and what background do they have in the field of your question. Ask for a company name. Ask if they are insured. Like me you will find most of the people writing in these online forums are retired, busy pros (like me) or marketing agents working for PR firms. This is your home do your research.

Build the bathroom backwards and find out all the answers.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/New%20Drain%20Hook%20Up%20To%20Old%20Copper%20Pipe/Screenshot2011-09-19at53644AM.png

Here is a standard "No-Hub" fitting joining a Proline Drain with a 2" ABS line.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/New%20Drain%20Hook%20Up%20To%20Old%20Copper%20Pipe/Screenshot2011-09-19at53706AM.png
I use my Dremel with a metal cut off wheel to remove links of copper. This allows us to get the connection point lower. Block the inside of the pipe as these cut off wheels snap easy. I used roughly 18 cut of wheels to remove all these sections. A pipe shooter can work as well but the cut off wheels make for cleaner cuts. The next time I'm going to try and attach these cut of wheels to the Pipe Shooter.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/New%20Drain%20Hook%20Up%20To%20Old%20Copper%20Pipe/Screenshot2011-09-19at53717AM.png

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/New%20Drain%20Hook%20Up%20To%20Old%20Copper%20Pipe/Screenshot2011-09-19at53815AM.png

The drain in this picture is a Baby Blue by Watts. It is cast iron and has a connection for a 2" threaded fitting. We used a 2" MPT fitting and a section of pipe. This was a high rise project so off course all the through hole needed Fire Blocking before proceeding. Hilti "Fire Bricks" are great for this application.

[johnfrwhipple]

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/New%20Drain%20Hook%20Up%20To%20Old%20Copper%20Pipe/Screenshot2011-09-19at61651AM.png

If it was me and we had 4-6" of vertical pipe above the concrete subfloor to the top level of water in the PTrap we would be chipping concrete to lower the fitting. I use my Grinder and a diamond blade to score many lines. Careful to stay away from the 2" copper pipe. Once we have scored our lines a small cold chisel and hammer will pop these out.

Do not send downward blows when chipping. Sideways blows away from the pipe will not stress it. A 2" copper pipe set in concrete is strong. Think about the shape of an egg and a submarine. Your busting concrete not icing a cake so use care within reason - by sending the blows away from the pipe you can ramp up your agression and bang that stuff out.

Don't let your kids watch as cement flys everywhere and there ears and eyes don't need the damage. The grinder is messy. Get a mask and a shop vac. We like to add extra shop vac hose to the exhaust and swing that outside the home.

I own a 1" demo hammer (a dwalt) sometimes if we are chipping a line for a trench drain we drill many holes and then use te grinder for a clean line and the demo hammer to chip.

If your just getting the old 2" copper line to a new drain you won't need to do so much work.

When reverse planning your elevation remember that a rubber liner needs a pre-slope and that you should have about 3/4" of material at the drain side at the pre-slope stage.

Have you decided on which drain you like? Have you worked out a budget for this renovation? Are there any more changes to the fixtures?

This connection question of yours in your original post is an easy task for any plumber. Every plumber I know owns a grinder and a demo hammer.

basement shower drain

[hj]

quote; John Whipple is right in this case, and HJ is wrong in this case

I am not sure WHAT you were reading, but that is EXACTLY the same thing I said. The flange is level with the concrete, the membrane fastens to it, and the drain sticks up about 3" to give the proper subbase above the membrane.

[jadnashua]

The nominal thickness of the setting bed above the liner is around 1.5", then add the thickness of the tile and the anchoring thinset. Underneath the liner, as mentioned, about 3/4" over a slab is good, although on a slab (but not on a wooden subfloor), you can get by with less. If you use a surface membrane (like Kerdi) and their special drain, the drain would end up about that minimum of 3/4" above the slab, though, and provide the lowest floor (at least verses a traditional liner shower) as a surface membrane does not use a drain with weepholes since the membrane makes it the waterproof layer.

[DanAK]

Thanks - your pictures and suggestions were pretty much what I'd been thinking.

I've got about 7 1/2 - 8" to the water in the trap. So it would seem I've enough room to fit in the adapter and keep the new drain low enough. Another question with this - should I refill that broken out area with something like pea gravel?

I hadn't given much consideration to drain types up till now. I just wanted one that would 'work' and not be too much trouble installing. Seems I'd have to order anything other than what I showed above. I'm not sure of their manufacturer, the local go-to plumbing supply as well as Home Depot seemed to only have those in stock. I'm open to suggestions. This shower is in an extra bath and I want it nice but nothing showroom/Fine Homebuilding type. Your work looks gorgeous. I'm planning fairly basic tho with a small seat and a nook above which I think is within my skills. I'm putting in a mid range basic shower head and controller, of course the old one wasn't anti-scald anyway and I'll redo a bit of the old inlet water lines which were rather creatively placed. I've got the time and try to not rush, ask plenty of questions and think things thru and try to keep costs down that way.

[jadnashua]

While you can do a monument bench and waterproof that and a niche with various materials, I really do suggest you look into surface membranes. Waterproofing a seat can be tricky if you haven't done it before. Also, you might consider something like a BetterBench, either a corner or side. These are pretty bulletproof, easy to install, and make the shower feel bigger since you can face it and still have someplace for your feet to go. http://innoviscorp.com/better-bench

[johnfrwhipple]

Thanks - your pictures and suggestions were pretty much what I'd been thinking.

I've got about 7 1/2 - 8" to the water in the trap. So it would seem I've enough room to fit in the adapter and keep the new drain low enough. Another question with this - should I refill that broken out area with something like pea gravel?

I hadn't given much consideration to drain types up till now. I just wanted one that would 'work' and not be too much trouble installing. Seems I'd have to order anything other than what I showed above. I'm not sure of their manufacturer, the local go-to plumbing supply as well as Home Depot seemed to only have those in stock. I'm open to suggestions. This shower is in an extra bath and I want it nice but nothing showroom/Fine Homebuilding type. Your work looks gorgeous. I'm planning fairly basic tho with a small seat and a nook above which I think is within my skills. I'm putting in a mid range basic shower head and controller, of course the old one wasn't anti-scald anyway and I'll redo a bit of the old inlet water lines which were rather creatively placed. I've got the time and try to not rush, ask plenty of questions and think things thru and try to keep costs down that way.

Can you get your hands on Mapecum Premix Fast Setting Screed Mortar? If so it's a great product for infilling around the hole. It can be placed from 1/4" to 4".

As an extra bath you can keep the install real simple with a regular clamping drain and traditional methods. Lots of my clients love the 5"x5" tile top drains (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?2555-Square-Shower-Drain)as a jump up from a regular drain or basic Kerdi Drain.

Who will be doing most of the work? Do you plan to tile it yourself or hire someone?

In Vancouver we do a lot of prep work for DIYers and Builders alike. It is not rocket science building a shower but it is science.

If you can post your plans we can help you spec it right here.

Did you look over on Houzz.com for ideas?

JW

[johnfrwhipple]

If you can get your new clamping drain level with the existing slab you can still get all the benefits of a topical membrane by using a Nobel Flex Flashing and Nobel Flex TS. The build up is only 3/4" off of grade and with a little extra chipping and the right product you could set the drain 1/2" below grade and use the Mapecum Pre-Mix Fast setting mortar.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Nobel%20TS%20Vancouver/07NobelTSCementSlabInstall.jpg

Here is a standard clamping drain set at grade level. Notice the donut or divot around the drain. This is achieved with a Divot tool which is included with the NobelFlex Flashing. These flashings are about $22.00.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Nobel%20TS%20Vancouver/08NobelTSCementSlabInstall.jpg

The flashing looks like this.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Nobel%20TS%20Vancouver/28NobelTSCementSlabInstall.jpg

I only need a 5' section of Nobel TS to do this entire shower floor. Nobel TS is 5' wide and not 3' like Kerdi so you almost never get a seam in a Nobel TS shower but with Kerdi it is almost a given.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Tile%20Top%20Drains/IMG_3940.jpg

We used a 5"x5" tile top in this shower. They install in replacement of your strainer that comes with your clamping drain.

If your up in Alaska your local plumbing inspector might request your liner be 30 mil - I would check to be sure. Not to push Nobel over Kerdi but it is almost three times thicker than Kerdi and meets these 30 mil shower liner requirements in every State in the US and every Province here in BC. I've used hundreds of feet of both and can say it is the better product.

Hands down.

JW

[DanAK]

Wow, thanks for the attention and advice.

I don’t have firm plans yet. This grew from tracking down a leak on the other side of the wall, which has plumbing for laundry, outside faucet as well as a bath above. I expect the downstairs was left unfinished by the original builders and done DIY at a later date. They had a fiberglass shower surround basically unattached to the house drain with some odd framing to support it as it was somewhat smaller than the space available. Before firming up the new shower plans I wanted to make sure of what is available and what I’ll need to deal with so I don’t overreach or plan something undoable. At some point we did intend to redo this bath, just not this soon. So I’d like to have something that will work with future renovation of the rest of the bath too. The toilet is kind of awkwardly situated. It looks worse in the sketch than reality but does seem to preclude a door rather than curtain without making some bigger changes.13993

The drain is off center by a couple inches which I figured would cause grief with a prebuilt pan, and it seems a tiled shower as big as possible in the space would be nicer which is what led to me to figure on making a mud/tile pan.

The more I look at idea books and remodel websites like Houzz and many others, the easier it is to start thinking a bit grandiose. I’d like nice, but also not too spendy and not too complicated as I am intending to do as much as I can myself. I put in a jetted tub and shower last year where previous owners had taken a regular tub/shower out to make a laundry area (which I put back downstairs). That went well. The tiling wasn’t too fancy, some design accents and a premade shelf and that was kind of fun. I’ve done various PVC as well as copper sweating then and for home plumbing repair over the years, and feel pretty comfortable with that. I’m sure no pro in any of this – not up on the latest (or even most of the old ways) but try and take the time to learn and avoid mistakes.

So my general idea for this shower is still pretty flexible and definitely open to suggestion and advice. I was planning a basic mud pan – like is shown on various how-to sites and books: preslope, rubber liner, final mortar with a 3 piece drain and tile. I can certainly see the advantage to using a material like Kerdi or Nobel and am considering that once I look a bit more at price and availability/shipping. Along with the mud pan I figured on using concrete board/wonder board with plastic behind for the walls. The space above the ledge from the foundation blocks just seemed a natural spot to have space for a decent sized nook. I’m aware as an outside wall it’ll be colder, but the same wall in the bathroom doesn’t have issues with that and it’ll allow for a slightly deeper nook. I expected to build that along the lines of several how-to’s, size somewhat depending on what we choose for the tile. I was wondering if fiberglassing the 2x4 and plywood box might make for better waterproofing, but I’m not sure how tile would do with that. On the same wall I was thinking of a narrowish (10”) bench, built in with the pan ending at it’s base. I understand too what jadnashua is saying and haven’t ruled out using a premade bench and/or nook insert too.

I was thinking of marble or granite tile for the bench seat and nook bottom as well as perhaps the top of the entry curb. It’d be contrast/accent to the rest of the tiling and would have fewer seams than the 6” tile I was considering for the rest.

I hadn’t even thought of other than the basic drains, but I do like the looks of some of these others, especially that tiled one. That seems very doable. I like the looks of that Noble flashing/divot drain. I have to look at that a bit more.

Again, wow – thanks for all the help.

[johnfrwhipple]

...So my general idea for this shower is still pretty flexible and definitely open to suggestion and advice. I was planning a basic mud pan – like is shown on various how-to sites and books: preslope, rubber liner, final mortar with a 3 piece drain and tile. I can certainly see the advantage to using a material like Kerdi or Nobel and am considering that once I look a bit more at price and availability/shipping. Along with the mud pan I figured on using concrete board/wonder board with plastic behind for the walls. The space above the ledge from the foundation blocks just seemed a natural spot to have space for a decent sized nook. I’m aware as an outside wall it’ll be colder, but the same wall in the bathroom doesn’t have issues with that and it’ll allow for a slightly deeper nook. I expected to build that along the lines of several how-to’s, size somewhat depending on what we choose for the tile. I was wondering if fiberglassing the 2x4 and plywood box might make for better waterproofing, but I’m not sure how tile would do with that. On the same wall I was thinking of a narrowish (10”) bench, built in with the pan ending at it’s base. I understand too what jadnashua is saying and haven’t ruled out using a premade bench and/or nook insert too...

There is nothing wrong with a good old fashioned mud bed. This is the most common form of shower construction here in North America - if you believe all the online posts and blogs you would think the art of mud bed shower has died. It has not.

Main concerns here with this type of install is having a pre-sloped base under the liner so when the flood testing is done all the water drains away.

Next big one is protecting the liner from damage while installing the 4-1 or 5-1 cement-sand ratio over the liner with expanded metal lath.

If you take care and have a pre-slope, don't puncture the linear your good to go UNLESS you forgot to protect the weep holes from clogging.

Slopping a shower floor with an Old School Mud bed is like playing at the beach. Fun and not to hard.

Mixing the dry pack (4-1, 5-1) is straight forward and can be done right beside the shower on grade or idealy in a mud box. I use my mixer first and then switch to a Garden Hoe.

This system is the most cost effective and most likely the easiest for you to track down materials. Buy fresh Cement CHECK CHECK CHECK!!! Clean Washed Sand. Or perhaps Mapei's 4-1 premix if you can get it.

Up from this method of shower construction you can streamline steps, lower elevations, speed up the process or not.

Do you have access to Kerdi, Nobel, Mapei, Latecrete etc in Alaska? Might be worth it to call on a few tile stores and find out the costs of these items in your neck of the woods.

JW

[jadnashua]

FWIW, Kerdi membrane is 1M wide (39.37"), not 36". Noble makes nice stuff, too.

[DanAK]

I cut out a decent hole in my concrete floor. Went easier and better than I worried it could. Down about 4" to reinforcing(?) wire grid where I'll stop till I have in hand the drain and connection I'll use - no point going further than needed. Time now to firm up design and get supplies.

I have not found Nobel, Mapei, etc. around here. In fact I've only found PVC liner only at Home Depot. Central Plumbing and Heating supply, Lowes, Home Depot. I'm drawing a blank on someplace local that stocks this stuff retail. I can order hardware and even the membrane stuff online if need be.

You guys have been a big help. Thanks.

[jadnashua]

A conventional shower would work, but I like some of the newer alternatives better. You may want to run your plans by the building inspector. The other methods are approved, but if they aren't familiar with them, they can give you grief. Best to download and print the certifications for the system you settle on and maybe the installation instructions and have them in hand when applying for the permit (assuming you are).

When I did a shower at my mother's house, I e-mailed the inspector the links to those items (this was 400-miles away so I wanted to clear the path before starting), and he had no problems. But, it was the first time he'd seen or approved one using that method. It's always best to have the inspector in tune first rather than having discord - he generally wins.

[johnfrwhipple]

Jim here in Vancouver I break them down with a good debate and a handful of IMAPO certificates... !

DanAK you can have Nobel or Kerdi mailed to you.

You could order a Nobel shower base kit or Kerdi Kit even.

Or you can just bang out the liner like you want.

That is one of the things I love so much about the tile top point drain upgrade - it replaces the stock strainer on your clamping drain. No round cuts around a circular strainer and you net a designer shower with traditional methods.

You might want to look at the weep hole protector from Nobel. The head tech's name at Nobel is Eric. He told me that this one little product is "Dog" of sorts for the company. No real money in selling it but the value is priceless. That is why they made it and sell it at a loss most likely - to save all those standard shower installs.

The weep hole protector is also something you can order online at Noble Companies website store.

If you want to reach Eric and ask him more try this email; Eric Edelmayer <eric@noblecompany.com> If you want to order call Cindy in Sales Phone: 231-799-8000
Toll Free: 800-878-5788 Email: sales@noblecompany.com

I order direct from Nobel all the time.

JW