For the longest time I have been trying to resolve a leaking toilet. I am on my 4th plumber. The flange has been inspected by all, and determined to be "o.k." The toilet is given a look over and no one detects damage. It is reseated, and the seal holds for about a month and then starts leaking and it is over the dining room ceiling so we get water damage on the ceiling which is how I know the thing is leaking again. Actually after the second time I did not repair the ceiling, we have a perpetual opening that I cover with cardboard, so as soon as it leaks I can see the water. The last plumber said to just replace the toilet, he told me they can develop pinholes and I wanted to know if that is true. The curiosity is that when it is freshly seated and sealed it does not leak for about a month. This is a bathroom that only has one user, and it is never loose, tight as a drum. The current toilet is a Kohler Wellworth and is 12 years old. I am ready to replace it and am considering Gerber and Toto. Doing the research. Are there any other causes to be considered...? The flange looks to be level with the floor.
Can toilets develop pinhole leaks?
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Jadnashua
Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
You sure you can't rock the toilet? Maybe only if you lean back or just to one side?
A joint in the drain line can have a small leak if it wasn't primed or glued properly. But, if it is good for a month, it doesn't seem it would be that. Does the floor flex at all when you are walking around the bathroom? Or, does it have a tub? If you use the tub mostly for showers and occasionally for a bath, could it be leaking after the bath? That extra weight if the structure is not great could flex things. You sure it is the toilet? Water can run along the pipes and look like it is coming from places it really isn't. What about the shutoff valve, could it be leaking or the elbow in the wall? Are the pipes copper or galvanized?
These are all WAGs. I'm not a pro, just thinking off the top of my head.
A joint in the drain line can have a small leak if it wasn't primed or glued properly. But, if it is good for a month, it doesn't seem it would be that. Does the floor flex at all when you are walking around the bathroom? Or, does it have a tub? If you use the tub mostly for showers and occasionally for a bath, could it be leaking after the bath? That extra weight if the structure is not great could flex things. You sure it is the toilet? Water can run along the pipes and look like it is coming from places it really isn't. What about the shutoff valve, could it be leaking or the elbow in the wall? Are the pipes copper or galvanized?
These are all WAGs. I'm not a pro, just thinking off the top of my head.
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responses to replies re leaking toilet
Thank you all. To clarify. (I hope) The toilet is located on the second floor above the dining room. When the toilet is flushed the water comes down around the pipe the toilet is attached to. The pipe is clearly visable through the opening in the ceiling that I will not repair until the leak is fixed. The pipe makes a bend and runs to the verticle line inside the wall. There is a bit of a gap around the sub floor and tile floor where the pipe emerges and I can see into the bathroom with the toilet removed so clearly the water is coming down on the flush and somehow going outside the seal or perhaps the pipe itself is leaking around the floor line. The plumbers, all of them, have inspected the pipe and the flange but no one can determine exactly where the water comes from. There is no water ever on the bathroom floor or under the base of the toilet, it goes straight down..perhaps the gap around the pipe is too big for the water to hit the floor. There is a sub floor, covered with wonder board (black concrete backer board) and ceramic tile. The original floor was sub floor, 1/4 inch ply and paper thin vinyl tile. I think the floor is now higher than the orginal floor however the flange appears to be level with the new floor and the plumbers have all said it is o.k. The toilet does not rock, it was very secure...and is only used by one person. This has been going on since the new floor was installed. Prior to the new floor, the toilet never leaked. When the plumber said the toilet may have a pinhole inside that leaks I thought he was taking the easy way out, just replace the toilet. There are no exterior cracks so how would an interior crack or pinhole? interact with the seal on the floor? Can a vitreous china toilet get pinholes?
Thank you all. To clarify. (I hope) The toilet is located on the second floor above the dining room. When the toilet is flushed the water comes down around the pipe the toilet is attached to. The pipe is clearly visable through the opening in the ceiling that I will not repair until the leak is fixed. The pipe makes a bend and runs to the verticle line inside the wall. There is a bit of a gap around the sub floor and tile floor where the pipe emerges and I can see into the bathroom with the toilet removed so clearly the water is coming down on the flush and somehow going outside the seal or perhaps the pipe itself is leaking around the floor line. The plumbers, all of them, have inspected the pipe and the flange but no one can determine exactly where the water comes from. There is no water ever on the bathroom floor or under the base of the toilet, it goes straight down..perhaps the gap around the pipe is too big for the water to hit the floor. There is a sub floor, covered with wonder board (black concrete backer board) and ceramic tile. The original floor was sub floor, 1/4 inch ply and paper thin vinyl tile. I think the floor is now higher than the orginal floor however the flange appears to be level with the new floor and the plumbers have all said it is o.k. The toilet does not rock, it was very secure...and is only used by one person. This has been going on since the new floor was installed. Prior to the new floor, the toilet never leaked. When the plumber said the toilet may have a pinhole inside that leaks I thought he was taking the easy way out, just replace the toilet. There are no exterior cracks so how would an interior crack or pinhole? interact with the seal on the floor? Can a vitreous china toilet get pinholes?
more replies to replies...to leaking toilet..
I have been intrigued by the posts here, especially the ones from Cookie.
It has been my experience that since the loss of my husband "Murphys Law" is not a theory. It is a fact. "Anything that can go wrong, will." I have had lots of problems with the house, including leaking supply lines, and leaking roof. It has also been my experience that some contractors should not be told if you are a widow, somehow some of them (not all) assume you are stupid, and rich. I am also learning that do it yourself projects are not as easy as they appear on HGTV and some contractors do not want to accomodate special requests. When I was remodeling my downstairs powder room, the contractor kept talking me out of the design I had in mind, it was very upsetting. All these great and wonderful ideas are on tv and in magazines, and I think the next time I want to do something in the house I will look for a designer to handle the project. It is worth the extra expense. And I will not use Home Depot or Lowes again. I have learned it is better and no more expensive to use local businesses and there is the personal contact with the owner, not a customer service rep that has no real authority.
I have been intrigued by the posts here, especially the ones from Cookie.
It has been my experience that since the loss of my husband "Murphys Law" is not a theory. It is a fact. "Anything that can go wrong, will." I have had lots of problems with the house, including leaking supply lines, and leaking roof. It has also been my experience that some contractors should not be told if you are a widow, somehow some of them (not all) assume you are stupid, and rich. I am also learning that do it yourself projects are not as easy as they appear on HGTV and some contractors do not want to accomodate special requests. When I was remodeling my downstairs powder room, the contractor kept talking me out of the design I had in mind, it was very upsetting. All these great and wonderful ideas are on tv and in magazines, and I think the next time I want to do something in the house I will look for a designer to handle the project. It is worth the extra expense. And I will not use Home Depot or Lowes again. I have learned it is better and no more expensive to use local businesses and there is the personal contact with the owner, not a customer service rep that has no real authority.
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leak
The answer to your question is YES, but only if there was a "pinhole" when it was made and the factory patched it. I have had it happen with Kohler toilets, but never any other brand. But if that were the case, it should happen continuallyonce it starts, not start and stop, and not after 2 months of not leaking.
The answer to your question is YES, but only if there was a "pinhole" when it was made and the factory patched it. I have had it happen with Kohler toilets, but never any other brand. But if that were the case, it should happen continuallyonce it starts, not start and stop, and not after 2 months of not leaking.
Based on your reply I would start by replacing the flange and as much of the pipe as possible. My guess is that there is a joint that is leaking or a hairline crack that is in a spot that can't be seen. I have seen flanges/pipes that were cracked but the crack did not open/leak until the toilet was tightened to the flange and this pulled up on it enough to open the crack.
seal
Sounds like a real pickle........
You say there's a gap around the flange.
You say the toilet bowl doesn't rock.
After the toilet is reset it doesn't leak for a month or more.
If it is a pin hole, the leak wouldn't stop for a while.
The guys an this side of the CRT would like to fix it for you, but we only throw out the ideas. Most are real good.
I have only one extreem idea: Buy two regular wax rings and one wax ring with a horn. ( that is a plastic extension molded into a wax ring.).
Have your plumber reset by putting a plain ring on the flange and then set the one with a horn into that one and by hand, put enough pressure on them both to squeeze them and allow the wax to expand some.
If you can still see downstairs use some of the last wax seal to fill in the gap between the flange and the floor.
I would feel bad if I installed a new toilet and your problem was just a wax seal.......
Sounds like a real pickle........
You say there's a gap around the flange.
You say the toilet bowl doesn't rock.
After the toilet is reset it doesn't leak for a month or more.
If it is a pin hole, the leak wouldn't stop for a while.
The guys an this side of the CRT would like to fix it for you, but we only throw out the ideas. Most are real good.
I have only one extreem idea: Buy two regular wax rings and one wax ring with a horn. ( that is a plastic extension molded into a wax ring.).
Have your plumber reset by putting a plain ring on the flange and then set the one with a horn into that one and by hand, put enough pressure on them both to squeeze them and allow the wax to expand some.
If you can still see downstairs use some of the last wax seal to fill in the gap between the flange and the floor.
I would feel bad if I installed a new toilet and your problem was just a wax seal.......
can toilets have pinhole leaks?
Thank you for your reply. This is the puzzle. The seal holds for a couple of months and then starts leaking again. After the second repair I kept the hole in the ceiling open but covered so I know for certain the repair lasts a couple of months then the water leaks down. I would agree with you that if the pinhole is the source the leak should be immediate and continous. I am starting fresh with another plumber, and I am buying a new toilet, and I am printing out all these responses to show the plumber. I am leaning towards a Toto, but with the gravity flush, I do not want the pressure flush, noise is an issue and with Murphys Law I can imagine a kaboom geyser if the pressure malfunctions. I am getting too old to deal with these problems.
hj said:
Thank you for your reply. This is the puzzle. The seal holds for a couple of months and then starts leaking again. After the second repair I kept the hole in the ceiling open but covered so I know for certain the repair lasts a couple of months then the water leaks down. I would agree with you that if the pinhole is the source the leak should be immediate and continous. I am starting fresh with another plumber, and I am buying a new toilet, and I am printing out all these responses to show the plumber. I am leaning towards a Toto, but with the gravity flush, I do not want the pressure flush, noise is an issue and with Murphys Law I can imagine a kaboom geyser if the pressure malfunctions. I am getting too old to deal with these problems.
can toilets have a pinhole leak?
Can the pipe be replaced with the pvc or whatever they call the stuff...? The pipe is easily accessed through the ceiling...I think it is cast iron. The hardest part would be standing on the ladder and working overhead. A recent break in the sewer line in my basement was repaired by cutting out the bad section and installing a new piece of the white pipe and I check it frequently, there are no leaks at the joints. If this could be done with the upstairs toilet drainline that might be the answer. I am printing out all the responses and will have the new plumber read them first. Thank you.
Cass said:
Can the pipe be replaced with the pvc or whatever they call the stuff...? The pipe is easily accessed through the ceiling...I think it is cast iron. The hardest part would be standing on the ladder and working overhead. A recent break in the sewer line in my basement was repaired by cutting out the bad section and installing a new piece of the white pipe and I check it frequently, there are no leaks at the joints. If this could be done with the upstairs toilet drainline that might be the answer. I am printing out all the responses and will have the new plumber read them first. Thank you.
plumber1 said:
All the ideas sound good, and I appreciate all of them, my experience with the plumbers has been they are not looking to solve the puzzle. They want to re-seal the toilet and be gone or install a new toilet and begone. Having done this re-seal several times, clearly there is something wrong that needs a plumber with a Sherlock Holmes kind of mind. It is a challenge, and it troubles me when a plumber looks at the toilet, and the flange, and just shakes his head. The traditional solutons are not working. Your suggestions will be passed on to the new plumber.
can toilets have a pinhole leak?
I learned early on not to tell contractors I was a widow. Some of them have been very kind, and helpful, it has been a mixed experience, but I never know ahead of time so I learned to just keep that secret. Those who were not kind tried to take advantage, they may assume there is a lot of money, and they are probably relieved there is no husband to deal with, especially husbands that may be very knowledgeable. They forget, women can be very knowledgeable too. You were very wise to inform your son that there are people who will try to rip you off. More importantly, these people are strangers, it is not really wise to let strangers know anything personal, they may be fine people, then again, we don't really know them. Street smarts is as valuable as book smarts. I will keep you advised of the saga of the leaking toilet, hopefully a solution is in these replies that I am giving to the new plumber. Thanks for the support, and hang in there.
Cookie said:Oh, Lucille in one of my former lives I was a bouncer. I already had a contractor try to take advantage of me. But, he underestimated what I learned from my husband. He came in and was checking the floor out, gave me an estimate and as fate would have had it, my younger son comes in and joins us. He starts to tell this man that his dad did this kind of work on our other house years ago. Well, this contractor asked, " where is your dad now?" He sadly told him that he had passed away. I looked at my younger son like, OHHHH, you should not had said that son. I was right. Not more than 5 minutes later he informed me that the estimate was 3 times higher! He claimed he underestimated it. I informed him, he had underestimated me; telling him to leave because I knew what he had just done. I saw the look on this man's face when he learned my husband was gone. I knew I was right. So, he left with a smirk on his face, but with no money in his pocket and no job to be done.
I told my son I may look stupid,and I never will claim to be the brightest light bulb in the box, but my intelligence is comparable to the general population. My younger son could not believe people would do that, we had a heart to heart conversation explaining to him that not only people will do that, but there are those who thrive on it. I felt badly taking such a nice kid and teaching him about such people, but if something happens to me, he has to take care of himself.
I really feel for you with that problem in the bath. It drives me crazy. I got the toilet back in, it seems to work great. The sink is next now, the light, the cove & the what-have-you.
Murphy's Law. I did a column once on it. My middle name is Murph. Yes, yes Lucille, everything since my husbands death is breaking, going wrong. Not only the furnace, the roof, the bath erupted, but, also family ties are breaking. Yet, I believe in time that things will go right. The house will be great, better than ever; and the family ties will be stronger since we aired our differences. I just had to take a leave of absence from work to regroup.
In the time off, I got a new furnace put in, which I knew less of than toilets! I bought a jeep replacing another car whose warranty ran out thinking this was smart. Which I think it was, considering the jeep is also great in snow and the other one was not much better than a car on a sled.
I finished, and I mean I finished black-topping the driveway. This is not a small driveway, it is circular and long. I cut down a tree, a butternut, whose nuts kept falling in the driveway I just finished. It might had helped if it wasn't my neighbors tree, lol. Oh, well...he got over it. I gave him the old Craftsmen lawn mower we had, when he started speaking to me again,
This is why my kids say, " what did you do!" with the closet ceiling.
My younger son asked right away, " did you check with Harry mom, before you cut that tree?" Ooops, did not know it was his, went out checked where the stump was and sure enough, it was not mine to cut.
Keep us informed over your bath.
Cookie
I learned early on not to tell contractors I was a widow. Some of them have been very kind, and helpful, it has been a mixed experience, but I never know ahead of time so I learned to just keep that secret. Those who were not kind tried to take advantage, they may assume there is a lot of money, and they are probably relieved there is no husband to deal with, especially husbands that may be very knowledgeable. They forget, women can be very knowledgeable too. You were very wise to inform your son that there are people who will try to rip you off. More importantly, these people are strangers, it is not really wise to let strangers know anything personal, they may be fine people, then again, we don't really know them. Street smarts is as valuable as book smarts. I will keep you advised of the saga of the leaking toilet, hopefully a solution is in these replies that I am giving to the new plumber. Thanks for the support, and hang in there.
plumbers
Lucille, I know there people like that, but I don't know of any.
How can they live with themselves? I don't know.
If they will do it to you, they will do anyone they can, man or woman.
If he's smart he will listen to you.
I learned a long time ago to listen to the lady of the house.
It helps to go in and ask questions. Much of the time the Mrs. had a better grip on the problem than the old man and is more helpful.
Just so you know, service men can see that quite quickly.
It helps to ask the customers questions first and then read between the lines.
It can slow the process when for the old man to tell you where you need to start and how to do the job.
Lucille, I know there people like that, but I don't know of any.
How can they live with themselves? I don't know.
If they will do it to you, they will do anyone they can, man or woman.
If he's smart he will listen to you.
I learned a long time ago to listen to the lady of the house.
It helps to go in and ask questions. Much of the time the Mrs. had a better grip on the problem than the old man and is more helpful.
Just so you know, service men can see that quite quickly.
It helps to ask the customers questions first and then read between the lines.
It can slow the process when for the old man to tell you where you need to start and how to do the job.
