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master plumber mark
05-15-2011, 07:03 AM
The swiss have assisted suicide and have just voted to keep it legal
for their citizens and anyone who wishes to take a one way vacation to their country to end their suffering... well good for them

I am sure that this will make a lot of doctors, and medicine companies furious to see some of their income stream being threatened this way...

I Remember when DR Kervorkian was helping assist peole to die back in 95 and went to jail for it..
the powers that be had to keep this medicle machine going in high gear and get the last dollar out of everyone..... no one gets off this ride cheap... its the law........

The powers that be dont want to see this become a trend starting anywhere else...
their is too much $$$ at stake....


please everyone do not take this thread personally

....

.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13405376

Ian Gills
05-15-2011, 07:37 AM
This is a good example of freedom.

Why are some of the most practical freedoms completely absent in the United States, which keeps proclaiming it was founded on freedom?

There are so many things you are not free to do here, I cannot see how this place is "free".

Switzerland clearly is though.

Today is a Sunday. And that means I cannot buy liquor. And I cannot buy liquor on any day at a gas station.

Morality is killing America's freedom.

master plumber mark
05-15-2011, 08:25 AM
About 200 people commit assisted suicide each year in Zurich, including many foreign visitors.
It has been legal in Switzerland since 1941 if performed by a non-physician with no vested interest in the death.
Assistance can be provided only in a passive way, such as by providing drugs. Active assistance - helping a person to take or administer a product - is prohibited.


I never thought of it this way... is it really healthy to have a doctor
who has a "vested interest" in keeping you alive at all cost.....
because your illness lines his pocket book????

I dont think I ever want a doctor to look at me and my incurable illness as a ticket to his next new BMW....

DonL
05-15-2011, 08:41 AM
I know here, if a doctor knows that you have insurance, They will milk the insurance Company for all they can. And want you to come back in 2 weeks.

If they know you do not have Insurance , They will say You are just fine, Come back next year, or when you get insurance, And they will find something wrong with you.

Sad but True.


DonL

Cookie
05-15-2011, 09:00 AM
My own mom I didn't realize it at the time was dying of cancer. I remember she said to me at the time, " I should had walked off a redlight." That is what she said. My beautiful young mom, only 53 said that. Next came a phone call when she said, " You know Cookie, I may die from this." I gave her a false hope, telling her not to talk like that, saying, " you will be fine." I couldn't deal with it. She lived 19 months with it, the last couple months was bad. It destroyed me. I sat with her when she died. Unable to answer the nurse's questions, if I wanted her to have more morphine. She slipped into a coma and sometimes, would whince or try to call out. I would eventually, say to give her more morphine because I didn't want her hurting.

I sat there in the dead of winter, 8 months pregnant after she died. I just sat there and sat there while everyone else was making phone calls and telling them, "mom was gone."

She was now 55, and I was 30. My whole life changed. I didn't know if I should be happy because I was bringing a new life into this world, my life, or sad because, I lost a life in my life which meant everything to me. My mom. I took it very badly for a long long time. I grieved my whole children's childhoods.

Not too many years later, when I was 44, the doctors now told me that I had cancer. In between those years I lost my dad to it, many uncles of my mom's and an aunt, so, I never saw anyone survive it. Only suffer from it.

I suffered the losses greatly.

The day I came home from the hospital I sat on the loveseat and just sat there and sat there. After my husband left for work and I put the boys on the schoolbus I would just retreat there, and wouldn't move. I sat in the dark, no tv on, no drape open, I wouldn't make even a cup of coffee. I just sat there. For weeks. For a couple months.

Then, along came my cat. Who is now 23 years old. He sat on the top of the loveseat and he would touch the drape and then, touch my hand. I knew what he wanted, but, I would tell him to go away. He would just sit with me in the darkened room. Until, one day, after he touched my hand and after I told him to go away, he took his furry little paw and for what it was worth he slapped my face! Then, I guess, not knowing what to expect, he backed off rolling into a little ball. I looked at him being so afraid and started to pet him telling him, " it is okay." I opened the drape and the blind and he started to look out and he wanted me to, so, I obliged him. Each morning he would do this. One morning, in the month of May, he wanted me to open the window. There, I could hear the birds and smell the fresh air. Together we watched a Robin feeding her young, we even saw a mole, we named Loy running about.

I started to make coffee in the morning. I started to look forward to my mornings with him. I started to see life through my cat's eyes.

I decided to take the chemo. A man who is from NZ, a friend of mine, wouldn't leave me feel sorry for myself, he was brutually honest, in saying, " pull your thumb out and get on with living." Between him and the cat, I had no choice, I started on the dreaded chemos.

And, suffered I did. It was not easy. But, I kept my childrens faces in my minds' eye and focused on it. So, I am here. After fighting it for nearly 6 years on chemo, I am here.

I know their will be a next for me. I am living with cancer. It is incurable. I have been in remission for 5 years now, but, I know, it won't last forever. I accept that.

I have given lots of thoughts about that day with my mom so many years ago now. I have asked myself, if I would want my sons who are the light in my life, wanting to be me...that day. Do I want them to feel the pang of pain watching me suffering?

I have made my decision. When nothing else can be done for me, when treatments are failing and nothing new is on the horizon, I will take my life into my own hands and call it good.

And, even the cat won't have a thing to say about it.

Ian Gills
05-15-2011, 03:18 PM
It is a slippery slope though.

If this were allowed and enough people started to make decisions when to end, norms would be established.

Society would start to ask questions if people decided to hang around too long.

And then the insurance companies and government would start getting in on the act, deciding when people should die.

Perhaps things are best left as they are after all?

cwhyu2
05-15-2011, 05:34 PM
It mabey raining,but the sun is still shining!

Cookie
05-15-2011, 06:26 PM
My New Zealand friend always says, he is like a bad smell he always comes back, and that always, always makes me laugh.

I think the term, Assisted Suicide, needs to be changed, corrected. Because, the way I feel suicide is when you don't want to live anymore.

In what we are talking about, it is because we can't live anymore. That is not suicide. That is not taking the chicken way out because you are afraid to fight.

It is like knowing, you are fighting a war, and finding your gun has run out of ammunition.

When someone has runned out of firepower, getting the ammo from a doctor isn't very hard. But, I think, it needs to be legalized, above board, and honest, and if someone chooses, the help from one.

Redwood
05-15-2011, 06:36 PM
Today is a Sunday. And that means I cannot buy liquor. And I cannot buy liquor on any day at a gas station.

Ian you can't go one day without having to buy alcohol?
That might be a sign of something much deeper than being deprived of your freedom...

Try This Simple Test Ian... (http://www.alcoholicsanonymous.ie/page5.html)

ballvalve
05-16-2011, 10:59 AM
Ian you can't go one day without having to buy alcohol?
That might be a sign of something much deeper than being deprived of your freedom...

Try This Simple Test Ian... (http://www.alcoholicsanonymous.ie/page5.html)

Why buy booze at a gas station? Stock up the trunk and house from a big box and be ready for a binge at any moment.

As for the georgeous country of the Swiss, and their ethically bankrupt residents eating the best cheese in the world, the moment they send those 40 mile long trains worth of Jewish tooth fillings and melted menorah's back to Israel [where it can be put to good use vaporizing Irans nuclear program [pogram?] THEN.... they can rejoin the world society.

Of course euthanization is legal, all the lesser Nazi's and SS changed their lederhosen,socks and clothes in 1941 and went to their summer houses and numbered "bank" accounts.

Ian Gills
05-16-2011, 01:11 PM
Why buy booze at a gas station? Stock up the trunk and house from a big box and be ready for a binge at any moment.

If stocking up is the alternative, why don't stores just open on Sunday?

Stocking up has all sort of disadvantages. Opening on the holy day does not.

And it's not that I would want to buy alcohol on a Sunday Redwood. I just expected that coming to the land of the free, I would be able to.

Why is it OK to forego your freedoms for God?

In England, any mom and pop store will sell you liqour on a Sunday. That is freedom. The Founding Fathers ran away from freedom and set something else up. Or so it appears.

Redwood
05-16-2011, 04:57 PM
If stocking up is the alternative, why don't stores just open on Sunday?

Stocking up has all sort of disadvantages. Opening on the holy day does not.

And it's not that I would want to buy alcohol on a Sunday Redwood. I just expected that coming to the land of the free, I would be able to.

Why is it OK to forego your freedoms for God?

In England, any mom and pop store will sell you liqour on a Sunday. That is freedom. The Founding Fathers ran away from freedom and set something else up. Or so it appears.

Well Ian taxes are quite high on alcohol in CT so I like to take a nice drive up to New Hampshire to their state liquor store and stock up... The trip pays off nicely...

Is your drinking so out of control that you can't plan ahead?

master plumber mark
05-16-2011, 05:11 PM
:cool:
Well Ian taxes are quite high on alcohol in CT so I like to take a nice drive up to New Hampshire to their state liquor store and stock up... The trip pays off nicely...

Is your drinking so out of control that you can't plan ahead?





Are YOU Alcoholic ~ only YOU can decide
To answer this question ask yourself the following questions and answer them as honesty as you can.
Is drinking making your home life unhappy?
Does your drinking make you careless of your family’s welfare?
Do you drink because you are shy with other people?
Is drinking affecting your reputation?
Do you drink to escape from worries or trouble?
Do you drink alone?
Have you lost time from work due to drinking?
Has your ambition decreased since drinking?
Has your efficiency decreased since drinking?
Is drinking jeopardising your job or business?
Have you ever felt remorse after drinking?
Are you in financial difficulties as a result of drinking?
Do you turn to or seek an inferior environment when drinking?
Do you crave a drink at a definite time daily?
Does drinking cause you to have difficulty in sleeping?
Do you want a drink the next morning?
Do you drink to build up your self-confidence?
Have you ever had a complete loss of memory as a result of drinking?
Has your doctor ever treated you for drinking?
Have you ever been in hospital or prison because of drinking?









What's Your Score??
If you have answered YES to any one of the questions, there is a definite warning that you may be alcoholic.





If you have answered YES to any two, the chances are that you are an alcoholic.
If you have answered YES to three or more, you are definitely an alcoholic.
Why do we say this? Only because the experience of hundreds of thousands of recovering alcoholics has taught us some basic truths about our symptoms — and about ourselves.
If you admit you are an alcoholic there’s hope for you.
Admitting you are an alcoholic may seem today like the end of the line to you, but there are thousands of people in AA who can testify that acceptance of their powerlessness over alcohol was not an end, but a beginning: the beginning of their recovery and a new, useful and rewarding life.
AA have a simple, workable programme. It is a down-to-earth programme designed BY and FOR alcoholics. If you honestly want sobriety above all else and are fully willing to follow this programme without qualification, you have written your own guarantee for sobriety.
THE ONLY REQUIREMENT FOR AA MEMBERSHIP IS A DESIRE TO STOP DRINKING.
This does not mean signing up, or paying a subscription fee. You simply come along to an AA meeting, where you will find people who have been through exactly the same sort of things as you. Get to lots of AA meetings. That way you will hear different AA’s telling their experience. Among them you will find people with whom you can identify closely — people you feel understand YOU.
MAYBE YOU ARE STILL NOT CONVINCED YOU ARE AN ALCOHOLIC.
In which case, a few meetings may help you to decide. All we ask is that you bring with you an open mind.
WHY NOT GIVE THE AA PROGRAMME A TRY? We did, and it works.



BACK (http://www.alcoholicsanonymous.ie/page2.html)






Redwood... IAN sounds like a lush to me.
about half of what he types dont make much sense.
and he needs to get booze on Sundays??? Hmmmmmm......
that ought to be the 21st question....

do you need to score booze on Sunday???..
....
when his liver finally gives out,
he will probably bitch about having to wait
in line for a replacement . ....without having anything to drink......
that will be an infringement on his rights.
to kill himslef with booze....... :cool:

you know he is not going to make a run to switzerland
to end it fast,,,, no way is that ever gonna happen:cool:

he will make the system keep him alive and give him a new liver
to get his full share and benefits from the "american dream"
.

ballvalve
05-17-2011, 11:21 AM
Now we have an AA forum. And what could be better than drinking alone after a day fighting with moronic customers?

Test your liver enzymes regularly and adjust your boozing to keep it alive.

If you cannot get booze on a Sunday, you live in the wrong place. Its all about politics, and those sin preachers, son. [non taxed, with a botlle of moonshine in their tabernacle]

Ian Gills
05-17-2011, 01:04 PM
If everyone here is so opposed to me hurting myself/others through alcohol consumption, so much so that they are wiling to obey their church and support limiting its sale, why is gun control any different?

Limit gun ownership.

Limit alcohol consumption.

And definitely limit doing both at once.

master plumber mark
05-17-2011, 03:40 PM
Now we have an AA forum. And what could be better than drinking alone after a day fighting with moronic customers?

Test your liver enzymes regularly and adjust your boozing to keep it alive.

If you cannot get booze on a Sunday, you live in the wrong place. Its all about politics, and those sin preachers, son. [non taxed, with a botlle of moonshine in their tabernacle]


today was a day when I had to deal with a lot of moronic customers.
I am still not gonna take a drink

...

one person expected me to drive 35 miles one way for free
to look at his water heater and give him an estimate for repairs....
and He just wanted an estimate only...


I told him that 85 bucks was the minimum charge
and could be deducted from the total bill if we did the work...
I thought he was gonna cry.


so I told him to call ben franklin for a free estimate and a good cry:rolleyes:

Ian Gills
05-17-2011, 04:25 PM
What happened to customer service?

I would have done that drive with a "Yes Sir" and a smile.

But I am English, and therefore polite.

You don't come to America for the service.

You used to.

Cookie
05-17-2011, 08:02 PM
You would had driven 70 miles to do a "free" estimate with gas being what it is? Now, I know, you are just trying to stir the pot.

master plumber mark
05-18-2011, 04:22 AM
What happened to customer service?

I would have done that drive with a "Yes Sir" and a smile.

But I am English, and therefore polite.

You don't come to America for the service.

You used to.

I was very polite and told him who to call
He got his estimate,, verbal over the phone. from me...
a price to repair the heater and a very reasonable price to replace it.........

but what he wanted was a free written estimate so he could
deduct it from the selling price of his house......

Its just simple economics here, you cant drive 70 miles round trip for the excersize.
especially when they whine on the phone to you and let you know in advance its a wasted call..
and I politely referred him to someone who might come out .......




so you came to america just for the free services???

and how is your liver doing??
do you think we owe you a free one someday too??

jimbo
05-18-2011, 06:27 AM
Today is a Sunday. And that means I cannot buy liquor. And I cannot buy liquor on any day at a gas station.

.

Are MA and MO the last two states where you can't buy liquore on Sunday?? Just move to CA , Ian. You can buy booze, weed, or just about anything else ON SUNDAY. But if you talk on your cell phone in the car, they will throw you in the pokey!

DonL
05-18-2011, 08:29 AM
Ian said "I wanna find me my own Glory Hole."

I bet there are plenty of them in California. Guess that would make him Happy. LOL

Ian Gills
05-18-2011, 05:39 PM
I came to America to join this forum.

master plumber mark
05-19-2011, 04:14 AM
it certainly was a full moon yesterday......

I had 3 calls that all wanted free services , with one being at least 45 miles one way ... he just wanted to chat and get some ideas about what he needed to do himself.....

wanted to know if I could come out and look around his
Raccoon infested crawl space to see what kind of damages went on last winter....
he just bought the place so I politely referred him to Ben.....


the other two should have also been passed on but I decided to waste
my time and gas on them..
.I simply walked out of one of them once she let it slip that she
had a brother-in-law that would do the job now that I looked it over...

but I was very polite .



I should have stayed home yesterday..


In stead of having a stiff drink,

I got on my Nordic-Track
and did 45 minutes last night......

Cookie
05-19-2011, 07:39 AM
I think you might be getting alot more calls for "free estimates" given, the state of affairs with everything right now. But, I wonder, if this would work for you. Tell those customers that you will take their name, phone and address and when, you are in the neck of the woods, you will call them. But, also, tell them, their is still a charge because of the cost of the gas. And, add on for your time. Then, keep a notebook with that information, and, maybe, do that when you are in that area. Or:

for those areas which doesn't pay to drive to especially, for something like that, a free estimate, maybe, tie up with another plumber in another area and get something going to act on a "referral" like, we do in real estate. We get paid to do referrals. For instance, if you refer a person, that person does the job, you would get kicked over a small percentage. And, the same for the other person. It would be between you and the other business, the customers knows nothing. If times get slow, just something to think about. Sometimes, it is either feast or famine in business.

But, no way would I drive 70 miles for a "free" estimate. Not with the price of gas. You can't afford that loss, not too many can. Times that by a few, no way. You would be working for a dead horse.

But, if it was close, and I needed the job, I would do it, or if I could tie up, 2 or 3 things in that area.

Cookie
05-19-2011, 08:01 AM
What I hear MM is this, after driving many miles, after making the time to show a house: Thank you, you are so sweet to show us this house, we ( usually a mother & daughter) we always wanted to see it.

Now, I ask enough of questions: Who? What? Where? When? and Why.

Who is buying this property? What exactly are you interested in? Where do you want to move to? When would this happen? and... the clincher, Why are you interested in this piece of property? Then and only then, do I feel I have a chance of not wasting my time and gas, wear & tear on my car.

I do not do sight-seeing tours.

DonL
05-19-2011, 08:23 AM
Hello all,

I have never gotten anything for "Free".

Nothing is "Free"

People should not expect you to come to their house for "Free"
Most people like that would not be happy with your work even if they did pay you too fix something.
And the Recalls would not be worth the money to go back again. Piss on them.

I do not like dealing with people that think they deserve everything for "Free"


I am going to the local bar to get a "Free" drink... (I have to pay for gas to get there, so it is not really "Free")


Have a Great Day.


DonL

Cookie
05-19-2011, 08:36 AM
At one time, it used to be, "free" estimates. I remember those days. Okay, so, I am told I am old. lol. But, I also, remember the "coffee man" who used to come around, too, and I haven't seen him in at least 30 years. I remember, honestly, you could get a "free" estimate, but, I honestly, think, correct me if I am wrong here, but, people "then" got the job done. My dad was in electrical and I spent alot of time with him and, I know it worked that way for him. He would go to someone's house, give the free estimate but then, they got the work done. Now, it seems like people are just looking for the best deal in town. Or out of town. Now, honestly, I am bone-cheap out of necessity, so, I do not put people down for trying to buy or keep things within what they can afford, but, I think, today it goes further than that, they are just like trying to get over on people. That is just wrong and so messed up.

Plus, even if gas back then, was nothing, comparing it to people's wages it still comes out it was an expense for people to do the free estimates. I just think, overall, people was different and more respectful of others.

I know times are tough, I am living it, but, I also, would never waste another's time in trying to keep my bank acct big, mine is never big, lol. I am glad when it balances. :)

But, the days of "free" estimates are gone, like the coffee man. Times have changed it, and people being greedy did it in.

Cookie
05-19-2011, 08:43 AM
I don't think anyone has ever wished you Don, a great day, so here it goes, "have a nice day Don."
Cookie

DonL
05-19-2011, 09:28 AM
Thank You Cookie.

I may have not explained very good, But a Free Estimate is different than a Free Trip Charge, to pay for gas at least.

I understand that if you don't want someone to do the work, that is fine, all you paid for was their gas.

But to expect someone to come to your house to repair something, knowing You can do it yourself, or have a Friend do it, After the serviceman tells you what it needs, For Free, That is just wrong.

That is what I am talking about.

I used to do free estimates, in a shop, and they brought the stuff to the shop, I did Itemized Estimates for Free.

Many times the person would just say, OK, now I want to order them parts listed on the estimate, I will do the work myself, I think that is wrong.

Then when they were not able to do the work, Had no clue, burnt stuff up worse, Then I would charge Double the price to Re-Fix it, When they brought it back.

There were also times that the little old lady would come in with her sewing machine because it would not pick up the stitch,
and I would re-time and lube it for her. Free of Charge, instead of the normal $48.00 for 10-15 minutes of work. It was not totally Free because she came to the shop, Using her gas and her time.

I treat people the way I would like to be treated.

I do not expect something for nothing.


Expect Nothing, and you will never be disappointed...


DonL

Redwood
05-19-2011, 09:39 AM
I wanna find me my own Glory Hole.

Ian you need to get the heck out of the P**n shops, and off the internet...

Get yourself a life... LOL

Cookie
05-19-2011, 09:53 AM
Oh, no Don, we are on the same page. I think so anyways, lol.

Years ago, people like my dad, for example, would go to someone's house and give an estimate for something that they needed done. It was free. Then, he would leave or if he had the parts and materials and if they wanted it, he would fix it then, or come back, if they wanted him, or needed the right materials.

They never paid for gas, etc.

Now days, I think, the days of what my dad did, and the likes of what MM is saying, is really over. Why? I guess loads of reasons really.

Now days, I think, their should be, and maybe, many do this, I don't know, but, maybe say, " 59.99 for an estimate and/or... plus, ... whatever, the businessman wants to add.

It is only fair... and, I really do feel with the price of gas, that really has to be be taken into acct.

What you said, about someone else fixing it after you gave the estimate is horrible. That is why, they got to charge. Years, ago, I think people hired them on the spot, unless I am wrong. Now days, they are shopping... and, one can't do that at your own expense.

That is why, I ask, loads of questions. I can't afford to waste my time (which is my work time) or my gas, being a site seeing bus. :)

I agree with you Don.

by the way, I got this sewing machine... ha haha ha, ( only kidding)

(now ... work....:( )

Ian Gills
05-19-2011, 02:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUla_YuEVpk

ballvalve
05-20-2011, 02:14 PM
I came to America to join this forum.

You can access this site from a nice spot like Somalia or Yemen. And have 10 or 12 wives for entertainment - your 'gold mine'

Ian Gills
05-20-2011, 02:39 PM
Are you telling me I could do all this from countries like that where there are real freedoms?

What have I done.

Redwood
05-20-2011, 05:49 PM
Are you telling me I could do all this from countries like that where there are real freedoms?

What have I done.

Yes... Go Ian!

Ian Gills
05-20-2011, 05:54 PM
I can't leave now.

I need to ensure there is social justice.

I need to remind folks of that which rightfully belongs to the King.

And someone has to pay taxes here. The rest of you don't seem to like "doing your part".

Like many of your ancestors, who failed to pay their dues to the Church of England.

America, and its history, is one of a nation of people with very short arms and deep pockets.

DonL
05-20-2011, 06:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUla_YuEVpk

You Could at least put a heads up on Your Post. Not just some BS Video.

Thank You Very Little...

master plumber mark
05-21-2011, 07:14 AM
The King of England and the crown can kiss my ....glory hole..... and you can too IAN....

What exactly is it that makes you feel that this country owes a Debt to the
king of england>??
what exactly makes anyone be-holding to other people for hundreds of years anyway??

if England or the intenational bankers could have their way,
we would all be in debt to them from birth....

its an evil and ugly thing to look at Englands history......
Even Australia was first colonized by the debtors prisons from England.....

African Slavery was also encouraged by England..... if traffic in human lives
could make the KING of ENGLAND a few bucks ... it was okkk

so what sort of EVIL is it in peoples minds that make them think the whole purpose of life is
to dominate and enslave others, so they and their children can sit on their lazy
asses and collect taxes and tribute forever from....???
Perhaps Simply human green and sloth...


here is a good movie you need to watch...
.you can see how their is a deliberate attempt to
get this country so in debt ..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXb-LrVkuwM

jimbo
05-21-2011, 07:29 AM
Well Ian taxes are quite high on alcohol in CT so I like to take a nice drive up to New Hampshire to their state liquor store and stock up... The trip pays off nicely...

Is your drinking so out of control that you can't plan ahead?

WATCH OUT! The state police in MA are known to hang out near the NY state line, and pull over people they suspect of importing tax free liquor and smokes from NH.

jimbo
05-21-2011, 07:30 AM
And the Swiss can't even get cheese right! Their's is full of holes!

ballvalve
05-21-2011, 11:37 AM
Are you telling me I could do all this from countries like that where there are real freedoms?

What have I done.

Yes, freedom to hijack oil tankers and hack up catholic school kids with machetes. Be sure all your 10 wives carry large caliber automatic weapons to keep the neighborhood boys out of the house. And keep your baton sharp.

ballvalve
05-21-2011, 11:38 AM
And the Swiss can't even get cheese right! Their's is full of holes!

The Swiss dont need to get anything right when they can live off of the plunder they stored for the Germans death camp-theft -system.

WW2 set them up for eternity.

http://www.archives.gov/research/holocaust/bibliographies/nazi-gold.html