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Ian Gills
03-11-2011, 05:03 PM
I'm getting a little bit worried about this.

It seems the TPRs risk kicking in, releasing vapor, and the pressure is rising from inadequate coolant being pumped (because there is no power).

Now I wouldn't buy a Japanese toilet (I own a Cadet 3) and I figure their nuclear reactors might not be much better. Why couldn't they have gone with installing the Bradfords instead, like we keep telling people?

But, seriously, I hope they get this one under control else all of you West of the Rockies had best come stay with me!

Redwood
03-12-2011, 11:43 AM
Oops... Too late the water heater blew...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kISMs3Zbgak

Ian Gills
03-12-2011, 05:59 PM
The British are on the way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12721827

Not sitting on their hands like the Americans.

Redwood
03-12-2011, 06:11 PM
The British are on the way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12721827

Not sitting on their hands like the Americans.

Good... I'm glad to hear you brits are on the way....

We are already there waiting on you....


President Barack Obama said one American aircraft carrier was already off Japan and a second on its way. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_japan_earthquake

That's 2 floating nuclear power plants...
One there and one on the way...

Plus a bunch of aircraft and medical facilities on board...

Ian Gills
03-12-2011, 06:12 PM
They don't need an aircraft carrier or even two right now.

Redwood
03-12-2011, 06:29 PM
They don't need an aircraft carrier or even two right now.

Well they don't need yours anyway judging by how long it took them to get to the Falkland Islands...


"We have units from all of our services, with a multitude of capabilities, from medical to communications to civil engineering, poised and ready to support where needed," U.S. Ambassador to Japan John Roos said in a paper statement.

Two Marine helicopters have already delivered 1,500 pounds of rice and bread to the hardest hit area, Shioishi City in Miyagi Prefecture. The food was a donation from Ebina City, a suburb of Tokyo. Meanwhile, five Air Force helicopters and crews from rescue squadrons were en route to an air base near Tokyo to support search and rescue missions.

Eight Navy ships are either nearby, or moving toward Japan. The USS McCampbell and USS Curtis are at sea preparing to help with at-sea search and rescue and recovery operations; they will be joined by the USS Mustin on Sunday.

The USS Ronald Reagan is also expected to arrive on Sunday, functioning as a refueling station for the Japan Self-Defense Forces and helicopters involved in search and rescue.

The USS Blue Ridge was re-stocked with aid, including food and water, and is expected to arrive on Friday. Three more ships, the USS Tortuga, USS Essex and USS Germantown are also en route to Japan.

The Japanese government has accepted help from the U.S. Agency for International Development, which sent search and rescue teams from Fairfax and Los Angeles to assist rescue efforts Saturday morning.

The teams include 150 personnel and 12 dogs trained to detect live victims. They will join Japanese and international search and rescue teams in the search for live victims upon arrival on Sunday morning.

Two officials from the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission were also on board that USAID flight, though Japan has not yet accepted an offer of assistance from the commission.

"We have some of the most expert people in this field in the world working for the NRC and we stand ready to assist in any way possible," said Chairman Gregory Jaczko in a paper statement.


The American Red Cross has also extended an offer of help. So far, Japanese Red Cross said it would accept financial support to help provide first aid and relief items to those displaced.

American Red Cross will deploy a disaster management expert Sunday from Washington, D.C., for a week-long mission. She will serve on a seven-person, international team focused on providing high-level support and advice. http://abcnews.go.com/International/japan-earthquake-us-mobilizes-humanitarian-military-relief/story?id=13124482

We'll be waiting for your Fifty-nine search and rescue experts, four medics and two sniffer dogs.

Ian Gills
03-12-2011, 08:01 PM
Well, your contribution to-date was coolant they did not need.

http://image.vetteweb.com/f/tech/30704298+w200/vemp_0911_29_z+corvette_c3_project_vehicle+preston e_coolant.jpg

They need search and rescue. Not military.

Redwood
03-12-2011, 10:23 PM
Now they are having problems at a second reactor...

Ian check this out.... (http://rif.org/)

Ian Gills
03-13-2011, 07:09 AM
Thanks for the lesson Redwood.

But like I said, they don't need carriers right now.

Just what are your boys doing on those boats right now?

jimbo
03-13-2011, 07:18 AM
An aircraft carrier has surplus electrical capacity to power a small city. They have on board enough food to feed a hundred thousand people for a few days.....and the capability to deliver it where needed ASAP!

master plumber mark
03-13-2011, 07:56 AM
stupid threads like this one is why I have not wasted my time here any more..

jokeing about this disaster and which country is doing
the most for the survivors is simply crude and stupid..

their will probably be well over 100k killed ..
.

and maybe if one or two of those nukes melt down we can have a
jolly good time argueing over which nation makes the best body bags

got to move on http://batterybackuppumps.com/ (http://batterybackuppumps.com/)

Redwood
03-13-2011, 10:15 AM
Thanks for the lesson Redwood.

But like I said, they don't need carriers right now.

Just what are your boys doing on those boats right now?

Like I said Ian "Reading Is Fundamental"
If you had read what I posted you would have seen what our carriers had already accomplished....
I put it in bold to aid your lagging comprehension....

Please get someone to read it to you...

ballvalve
03-13-2011, 10:48 AM
Nuclear plants in Japan risk meltdown
I'm getting a little bit worried about this.

It seems the TPRs risk kicking in, releasing vapor, and the pressure is rising from inadequate coolant being pumped (because there is no power).

It is a good point. The "Brilliant" Japanese that make those cars that most ignorant Americans bow down to like a golden goddess have built nuclear plants right on the fault line.

AND they forgot to think about a little wave knocking out the auxiliary power.

AND they forgot to simply put the aux power on the roof of the building.

AND they forgot to build a huge GRAVITY feed cooling tank for ultimate back-up.

Guess they were too busy making cars and toilets to export for PROFIT instead of upgrading their nuclear.

Wanna know where they should have gotten their nuclear plants? They should have bought 50 of the American aircraft carrier nuclear plants and mounted them on some surplus toyota springs. Those little beauties can sway until they are almost upside down and jump around dodging floating Corolla's.

And Ian, our bad gas lines look pretty harmless next to these poorly designed plants.

Finally, whatever help we give needs to be repaid on a time and material basis. From auto export profits.

This is NOT Haiti!

But it looks like Japanese/Haitian plumbers designed the plants coolant system......

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?34301-Plumbing-in-Japan-is-bizzare-if-not-interesting!

Redwood
03-13-2011, 12:02 PM
It is a good point. The "Brilliant" Japanese that make those cars that most ignorant Americans bow down to like a golden goddess have built nuclear plants right on the fault line.

AND they forgot to think about a little wave knocking out the auxiliary power.

AND they forgot to simply put the aux power on the roof of the building.

AND they forgot to build a huge GRAVITY feed cooling tank for ultimate back-up.

Guess they were too busy making cars and toilets to export for PROFIT instead of upgrading their nuclear.

Wanna know where they should have gotten their nuclear plants? They should have bought 50 of the American aircraft carrier nuclear plants and mounted them on some surplus toyota springs. Those little beauties can sway until they are almost upside down and jump around dodging floating Corolla's.

And Ian, our bad gas lines look pretty harmless next to these poorly designed plants.

Finally, whatever help we give needs to be repaid on a time and material basis. From auto export profits.

This is NOT Haiti!

But it looks like Japanese/Haitian plumbers designed the plants coolant system......

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?34301-Plumbing-in-Japan-is-bizzare-if-not-interesting!

You may find it interesting that us dumb Americans have also built atomic power plants in seismic active areas...
Here in the US we have the San Onofre and Diablo Canyon Reactors with similar seismic exposure...

We have also had more than a few accidents...
Even those navy owned reactors have had a few...

jimbo
03-13-2011, 12:33 PM
From what I read, the scientists in Japan had under-estimated the size of the potential quake in this area. So now, we have to wonder if we have done the same vis-a-vis San Onofre. California, for geologic reasons, is not prone to local tidal waves...meaning even a big one is not likely to cause the kiind of wave seen in Japan. CA is exposed to waves from quakes in Japan, Alaska, etc.'

I do not lose sleep over the whole thing, because in the end, Darwin will make it all work out.

Cookie
03-13-2011, 12:43 PM
None are safe. My husband worked on one of the three back then in Taiwan, I think, after his death they added a fourth. They get some pretty fierce typhoons & earthquakes. He worked on Unit 1 & 2 in Shippingport and he had to quit because the rads he was getting was comparable to those my mom got getting rads for health reasons. I would shut off the lights to see who glowed more. I still wouldn't live near Three Mile Island for no money in this world. Depending on how the wind blows I would reckon, everyone is going to glow alittle from Japan's meltdown. And, it is going to be around a long, long time; and, cause alot of stomach problems.

ballvalve
03-13-2011, 02:35 PM
The British are on the way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12721827

Not sitting on their hands like the Americans.

And remember this is not a pot stirrer!.... And from his cousin:


You may find it interesting that us dumb Americans have also built atomic power plants in seismic active areas...
Here in the US we have the San Onofre and Diablo Canyon Reactors with similar seismic exposure...


Diablo is not in the ring of fire, and its not in a position for backup power to be flooded [DUH! in japanese] And Diablo was stopped for 3 years for the most intensive seismic upgrades ever made.

If you can make a power plant that operates on a ship in a typhoon, you can make the same model for use on land

And if anyone had a brain 40 years ago, and I believe a few did, all the plants would operate in FAIL SAFE mode with passive cooling, irregardless of a power supply or a drunken operator.

But then the pump makers would'nt have made much money on the plants construction.

Funny how every city in America has a water tower up 100 feet in the air with a few hundred thousand gallons of water in it for relatively non-safety related issues. But the Japanese couldnt afford to put a few next to each reactor?

HEY! Just in from Japanese news central: "We discova Dodge floor mat got stuck under the nuclear accelerator pedal!!" And "we no design-a the hokey pokey electronics! .... Amelican General Electric designer told us put genalator on beach!!! So we had to put old fuel lods ona roof, shaking building apart in earthquake - plobably cause by Amelican drill rigs in Alaska. "

And all horseplay aside, no humans should face this three punch knockout they have suffered. If these plants melt down, japan will lose about half of its real estate. At least we have places to move people to.

Redwood
03-13-2011, 03:13 PM
Here ya go BallValve! Have a go at it!
http://esa21.kennesaw.edu/activities/nukeenergy/nuke.htm

ballvalve
03-13-2011, 03:42 PM
Take the pumps OUT and have a go at the game ! The reactor always wins.

Think of todays nuclear power as every house on pumped sewage and septic.

Gravity rules. Like a Tsunami.

Cookie
03-13-2011, 06:14 PM
I feel bad for those people in Japan. So many are missing. I read an article where a woman was looking for her missing husband and it made me think so much of my life. So many people told me to just get over my husband's loss, to move on, like I could just go out and replace him. I was infact, treated badly. So many people just want to ignore you when something bad happens, and they want you to ignore it, too. But you can't. I feel bad for these people's suffering and I hope others will treat them much more kindly than I have been with my loss in life. They will suffer with PTSD, just like I do.

nukeman
03-14-2011, 05:43 AM
ballvalve: there are some designs out there that are based on passive cooling. One design does use the "water tower" concept by placing a large tank of water above the core inside of the containment (reactor) building. Although gravity always works, there are challenges with this too. Remember that a plant during normal operation will be at 2200 psia or so (for PWR reactors)..the GE is a BWR and typically runs around 1000 psia. You get about 0.5 psi for every foot of head, so to be able to inject under high pressures, this water tower would have to be close to 0.5 - 1 mile high (not practical). The other issue is the amount of water needed. Not only do you need enough water to fill the reactor vessel to the top of the core, but you really need enough to flood the entire reactor building to the level. If there is a break in the piping, the water that you put in just goes back out and onto the floor. If your containment is intact, you just flood the thing to the top of the core level and go into "boiling pot" mode. This might require 500,000 to 1,000,000 gallons of water or more. The other issue is that this tower and piping would need to be "safety-grade" meaning that it could withstand earthquakes, tornados, huricanes, etc. The other issue is that the containment outer shell is the last line of defense with regards to a fission product barrier (I'm talking about typical PWR reactors here). This means that you don't want penetrations through this wall to the outside.

In the current designs that use a water tank above the core for passive cooling, they need to get the system pressure down to were the head from the tank can overcome the system pressure in order to inject. They use 4 valves that are about 14" in diameter that pop open and release to the containment. If your containment has failed, then this would be released to the environment.

These are the reasons why active systems are typically used.

In the design of the reactors where this event is going on (BWRs), the building that was damaged is not designed to be a real barrier. The real containment barrier is inside the building. On typical PWR (usually plants where you see a dome), the outer wall is typically 4' thick concrete, heavy rebar, plus a steel liner. Some newer designs even use a double containment ( two shells, each 4' thick, with a gap between them).

The other aspect to this is to what levels do you design to? Typically, we will look at historical information and design for the worst + additional margin. Now say you build somewhere that has never recorded a quake bigger than 2.0. What do you design for? Do you design for a 4.0...but then maybe a 5.0 will hit? Maybe you design for 8.0 and an 8.9 hits??? Each point you go up on the scale is 10x the magnitude, so building to withstand an 8.0/9.0 in an area that has never seen over 2.0 is not very practical. Nature typically doesn't give us an upper bound for disasters. All you can do is look at the historical information and do your best to design based on that information. There is always some chance that something will happen that is worst than anything ever recorded (like this event).

Redwood
03-14-2011, 06:31 AM
It looks like the #3 reactor has now had an explosion.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jurlkfW4QxQ

Nukeman, Be prepared for a never ending argument that defies all logic and common sense...
Bear in mind you are talking to an engineer....

One whose never-ending passion for pressure relieving ballcocks and relief valves vs. expansion tanks has been opposed by every plumber on the forum...

Good Luck with that!

Cookie
03-14-2011, 07:02 AM
Hey hey Red, my beloved was an engineer! And, the nicest guy you would ever had met. He never let on how smart he was even though like I told him, I had a higher IQ, lol. I was smart enough to marry him.

I got a solution for the reactor problem, build less! The world will survive loads better with less, "less is more."

I am sure, they will rebuild another and another and another.

Cookie
03-14-2011, 08:29 AM
I almost forgot this. I had someone tell me, that bad things happen ( storms etc) in our country, this person was from Japan by the way, because of our sins. Hmmm.

jimbo
03-14-2011, 11:11 AM
No easy answer here. An accident or natural catastrophe involving a reactor is a big thing, but rare. How many people over 100 years have developed cancer from the exhaust of fossile fuel and coal plants? What about the pending disasters at many coal sluge 'lakes' which are starting to leak?

There is no free lunch. And Darwn always wins.

ballvalve
03-14-2011, 01:12 PM
One whose never-ending passion for pressure relieving ballcocks and relief valves vs. expansion tanks has been opposed by every plumber on the forum...

Seems the japanese agree with pressure relief valves - to vent Hydrogen that blows up on bad days. But plumbers and their design knowledge, and ability to think beyond grandpa's ideas [just a bit over roofers on the scale of clear thought] Would have used a few expansion tanks for the reactors core. And they would have put them out front on the ocean side.

If it wasn't for the engineers you'd be out threading iron pipe day in and day out. And if it was not for plumbers unions, we would have had PEX 30 years ago.


Nukeman, Be prepared for a never ending argument that defies all logic and common sense...
Bear in mind you are talking to an engineer....

Placing backup power on the beach, is what defies logic. If the highest predicted wave was 25 feet, then a few more sticks of iron would raise that genset to 50'.

Pretty elementary, Watson. And today, one of the plants ran out of fuel for the gensets. I guess there is a shortage on diesel tanks to place around power plants.

There are some engineers with dirty hands, JB weld and a few excavators that were raised with common sense, who think outside the box. But most of the plumbers, roofers and painters I have used had, at best, just dirty hands.

You are correct in that at least 80% of engineers can't tie their shoes, and have never driven a screw, drilled a hole or set a big valve....

Ian Gills
03-14-2011, 01:12 PM
Stop this talk of Darwin all the time!

Just because he wins does not mean he is right.

The problem with evolution is that it is too short-term.

In other words a species that will thrive later can be completely wiped out by a simple short-term event, like a radiation leak or global warming.

American values seem to be based on natural selection. And in this sense are also too short-sighted.

Some of those you discredit and choose not to help today, may be the ones you need tomorrow.

ballvalve
03-14-2011, 01:22 PM
Nukeman, my wine cellar has a domed 6 to 12" thick high strength concrete roof, with at least as much steel as the average Nuke dome. Now if I can afford that, and the existing plants are at 4", we have a pack of dopes building them.

The passive nuclear plant designs exist, and will continue to be improved upon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESBWR

The operator can sleep for 3 days and it won't blow.

GRAVITY! a CONSTANT.... PUMPS - a problem. Valves - problematic, but redundancy helps.

That is just one of them, and an example what an engineering team with some common sense and an angry public can inspire.

Natural selection is as constant as gravity, and will always prevail over social 'programs'. Just turn off the power in Japan -entirely- for a month and assume the red cross and the supply chain is otherwise engaged. That would make a fine horror film.

Under such conditions, those you helped yesterday, may be roasting you on a spit tomorrow.

Redwood
03-14-2011, 04:34 PM
If it wasn't for the engineers you'd be out threading iron pipe day in and day out. And if it was not for plumbers unions, we would have had PEX 30 years ago.

Yea...
30 years ago the engineers gave us Polybutylene with Acetal fittings...
Can you blame us for being a tad bit reluctant to jump up and down with joy eagerly accepting the next generation of plastic miracle pipe?
When the plumbers were left holding such a large liability on a defective product...

Especially when the lawsuits started up with Kitec http://www.plumbingdefect.com/index.html, Zurn, Rehau, and DuraPex....
And many of those same companies that made the polybutylene are doing the same thing over again...
The plumbers are going out of business and the manufacturer says "There isn't anything wrong with our product but we are going to stop selling it."


Nukeman, my wine cellar has a domed 6 to 12" thick high strength concrete roof, with at least as much steel as the average Nuke dome. Now if I can afford that, and the existing plants are at 4", we have a pack of dopes building them.

Ummm Ballvalve....
I'm seeing some sloppy engineering here...
Attention to detail is very important in engineering especially when life safety is involved.
Nukeman said 4' thick.... the difference between 4' and 4" is 44" which is a fairly large error when you are designing a nuke reactor containment dome...

Please whatever your area of engineering excellence is please go there and stick with it....

This Jack of All... Master of None... is getting a little scary....
You are clearly out of your league both in Plumbing and Nuke Design...


There are some engineers with dirty hands, JB weld and a few excavators that were raised with common sense, who think outside the box. But most of the plumbers, roofers and painters I have used had, at best, just dirty hands.

You are correct in that at least 80% of engineers can't tie their shoes, and have never driven a screw, drilled a hole or set a big valve....

Clearly you aren't saying that you as an engineer would be using JB Weld on a Plumbing or, Nuke Build....
That is not thinking outside the box or, with common sense! That is just plain Hackery!

I'm beginning to think that I have met an engineer that hacks his way along using JB Weld to cover his mistakes, Ties his shoes with a granny knot, puts in screws and forgets to tighten them, drills crooked holes, & we can only hope hasn't set a big valve where life safety might be an issue....

nukeman
03-14-2011, 04:54 PM
BV: I think we have a problem with units here. A typical containment is 4' (FEET) thick. It looks something like this:

http://www.nei.org/filefolder/containment_wall_construction.jpg

On the plants that are having problems, the building that was destroyed is nothing but a roof for the building for the most part. The actual containment is intact, which is pretty impressive given what it has endured.

I'm fully aware of passive plant (Didn't I already say that?). I have even worked on some of them. What you have to understand is that even passive plants do require some active systems to get the job done. For instance, if you want to inject water using gravity, you 1st need to drop the system pressure. This means opening some large valves and dumping to containment. When you do, steam/coolant/contamination goes out with it. If your containment had failed, this gets released to the public. So to get the water into the system, you may have to have a significant release to the public. In addition, if multiple valves fail to open, the pressure won't drop fast enough to get the water in there before the core melts. Like anything, there are advantages and disadvantages to any design.

Terry
03-14-2011, 05:10 PM
Mark,
It does get a little silly sometimes the bickering. This is truly a tragedy and it is far, far from being over.
Arguing over which nation can help the most? This is a time when whoever can help, should help. More power to them. As far as fixing blame for something of this magnitude, it's easy to see after the fact, that things went badly. But is there really anyone of us that would have guessed that a wave would do that much damage?
Until St Helen's blew in the state of Washington, experts said that type of destruction would take millions of years. And after the mountain blew, textbooks were changed to read; It happens in seconds.

My Japanese sister in-law used to live in Hilo, on the big Island of Hawaii. They had Tsunami's there too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09xQ8n6GiTY

The West Coast of the United States is well aware that we too can suffer the same fate. And we have nuclear plants pretty close to our coast line. Like anything that happens, and remember, this is the worst occurance in our recorded history. Sure it may have happened before, but I don't think anyone really believed it until now.
Now we in Seattle, now we know.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZbcGS--SYM

Ian Gills
03-14-2011, 06:05 PM
There's been a third reactor blast. These are all old GE reactors.

We still have lots of those on the East Coast. But then we don't get quakes here often.

This is all pointing to a California quake soon. These fractures are all related, or so I fear.

One thing I don't get is if powering the cooling pumps was the problem then why wasn't a line run to link up to one of the American carriers off the coast? The last time I looked, these plants were located on the coast, so distance shouldn't have been a problem.

Redwood
03-14-2011, 08:25 PM
There's been a third reactor blast.

Wow!
That's horrible!

Here are before and after the tsunami arial photos of the plant.
As you can see a lot of the equipment surrounding the plant was wiped out.

Before...
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/avitars%20and%20emocons/11ec0ee2.png


After...
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/avitars%20and%20emocons/61142fec.png

It's no wonder they had problems keeping things going....

Ian I don't think it matters what kind of reactor was installed or how old they are...

It's that same as what would happen with any car if you drained the radiator and went on a long drive....

Something is gonna get hot and nothing good will come from it....

ballvalve
03-15-2011, 09:36 AM
Terry, you must be referring to my reply to Ians and redwoods play about darwin and natural selection. Its not about Japanese, its about the thin veneer of civilization we live under and what would happen ANYWHERE on earth when the power goes out and the MRE's stop arriving.

Japanese in our family too, and very fond memories of my ex-Japanese fiancee. We were well taught by our parents to know and tolerate all races, but to seperate out the morons on an individual basis. Dad watched all his buddies die by the hands of the japanese, but never had a harsh word for the people as a whole.

4" of containment or 400" do not matter when you put the back-up generators on a beach instead of those big flat, unused roofs. And forgot to store enough fuel anyway.

It's all about design, and the willingness to spend enough money for higher levels of redundancy. Considering our devotion and awe of japanese cars, I find it highly ironic that a country that has engineers that can make the Prius cannot notice that for the cost of a few, their generators could have been protected.

The Russians had an excuse for Chernobyl [and I have been there] ; A society beaten down into a bottle of vodka by a monstrous socialist system creating "5 year plans"

If you didnt meet the "plan" your life went into the toilet. So every shortcut possible was taken to meet absurd goals. A quick way for a reactor to get built is to not bother with a containment structure. Then, because jobs were often dispensed not by performance and merit, but rather by a communist party buddy system, incompetents often ran them. Recipe for disaster.

The Japanese don't have those excuses and could have done a better job.

BV wrote;


And all horseplay aside, no humans should face this three punch knockout they have suffered. If these plants melt down, japan will lose about half of its real estate. At least we have places to move people to.

ballvalve
03-15-2011, 09:41 AM
They don't need an aircraft carrier or even two right now.

So Ian, I notice your opinion of the American aircraft carriers has adjusted upwards a bit since that statement.


One thing I don't get is if powering the cooling pumps was the problem then why wasn't a line run to link up to one of the American carriers off the coast? The last time I looked, these plants were located on the coast, so distance shouldn't have been a problem.

If anyone knows japanese culture, they are an intensely proud and "do for ourself" nation. Often to the point of very bad decisions. In an airplane crash some years a go, the Americans found the site, and were landing men there when the Japanese rescue forces forbid them to help.

The japanese did not get there until the next morning, and 30 or 40 people perished in that night. I have a feeling that some of that pride will be found to have contributed to the meltdown.

Ian Gills
03-15-2011, 09:50 AM
I notice your opinion of the American aircraft carriers has adjusted upwards a bit since that statement.


Not really. I think they will come into play once the search and rescue stage has ended. They will be an intgeral part of feeding and watering the population affected, now the infrastructure has been destroyed. But they were never needed in the early stages of this catastrophe. They look good to the American media and a public eager to see what America is "doing". But are of little use in pulling survivors from the rubble. The British have just sent a second search and rescue team, which is great.

But my hunch is that the US military could have done more regarding the nuclear issue and were either: a) too scared to assist due to fears over radiation and the health of US servicemen; or, b) the Japanese did not want their help. We will find out the truth in the years to come.

But keep this in mind. Of anything, or anyone, a US carrier is probably best equipped to deal with the problems these nuclear plants experienced. They are designed to work in radioactive environments (think Cold War), they are equipped to do this and they have lots of power on tap. Why was more not done to get power to those pumps? Somebody is not telling us the whole facts.

Those carriers certainly starting running away like scared rabbits when the radiation levels went up a *little*, so you'll know where to look first. Makes you wonder how they could have survived the Cold War, were it to have turned hot. Any navyman will tell you the safest place to be in times of radiation is on a boat or sub. I think someone got the jitters.

Let's see if the Americans are brave enough to do some water drops from the air on the plants now things seem to have progressed too far. Their decision will be telling.

I certainly have admiration for those few Japanese workers left at the plants trying their best to keep things stable. They are heros.

ballvalve
03-15-2011, 10:17 AM
Carriers are not floating radiation shields. And the Military likely knows what the japanese are afraid to say, that its melting now. Prudent move.

The japanese have many of their own large ships, and they can run an extension cord to shore on their own if they so wish.

I can't find any reason for the American navy to commit Hari-Kari over a non American civillian crisis. Food, fuel, shelter yes. But I see no evidence that the Japanese have requested their help - except today, finally they accepted a team of US nuclear SWAT guys in.

Read the Chernobyl book. The air drops only managed to kill the pilots. Ask Nukeman what he thinks of dropping water from a helicopter on a melting containiment vessel.

Cookie
03-15-2011, 10:18 AM
The "real" heros are the people who speak out against building more nuclear power plants.

Ian Gills
03-15-2011, 10:29 AM
Carriers are not floating radiation shields.

Yes they are. It doesn't get much better than being in a ship at this time.

Everything is shielded; stuff is lead lined; they have clean-up apparatus and the suits.

The only place you can't go is the deck. These were built to survive a nuclear attack from Russia for heaven's sake, or at least long enough to retaliate!

Every navy man on that boat will have done nuclear training, the first part of which is probably shutting the doors.

When this crisis unfolded there was no radiation. Just a couple of aircraft carrier powerplants sitting off the coast doing nothing. Well played everyone.

ballvalve
03-15-2011, 10:39 AM
The "real" heros are the people who speak out against building more nuclear power plants.

Funny how we are all happily willing to drive on a 2 lane highway full of drunks and sharp curves with half bald tires in the snow, but fear a nuclear power plant.

More people will die TODAY in auto accidents worldwide than have been killed by nuclear power plant accidents since their inception.

Safe designs exist, but the public does not read blueprints, so its back to enviromental disaster fuels.

We will be laughed at one day at how we squandered oil by burning it in our primitive 8% to 15% efficient engines. To go get a big Mac.


Just a couple of aircraft carrier powerplants sitting off the coast doing nothing. Well played everyone.

Surely you jest about running a power line from an aircraft carrier? Even redwood can explain that away to you.

Ian Gills
03-15-2011, 10:43 AM
I agree Ballvalve, but the situation in Japan is getting out of control now and needlessly so.

There have clearly been failures and mistakes. And we will need to learn from those.

But nuclear power is our only future, if global warming does not kill us first.

Cookie
03-15-2011, 10:44 AM
Funny, I don't fear them, I just think they are an unnecessary evil. There are clearly, other options.

Terry
03-15-2011, 11:02 AM
I would rather see more use of nuclear and less oil being used.
We could be plugging in our cars at night, instead of using up all of the oil reserves. What happens when those are gone?
Like Ballvalve says, how many deaths from cars, how many from power generation?
Have we already forgotten the gulf mess with the oil platform?

ballvalve
03-15-2011, 11:09 AM
Here is quite a revealing news bit: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/15/us-japan-nuclear-chernobyl-idUSTRE72E5MV20110315

Ian Gills
03-15-2011, 03:24 PM
I think there has been another fire at the plant.

This is very sad news.

Just what are those carriers doing?

Come on boys. Use your mobile city to fix this one.

You have the suits.

You have the clean-up facilities.

You have the pumps.

You have the power.

Heck, you even have the brains.

Moor up and use them.

Better to lose a few American lives to save others than many from fighting wars.

Your pride of the fleet currently sits 175 miles away.

Dunbar Plumbing
03-15-2011, 05:32 PM
Those carriers are not going within harms way by risk of radiation exposure.

A 20 mile radius is being enacted in a no-fly zone and the US Navy has detected elevated levels... 200 miles away.

They've already mentioned that some, as many as 150 of the US Navy have been exposed to radiation. Their efforts now can lead to lifelong cancers, death down the road, when all of this mass tragedy is a memory.

They have snow in the forecast, rain which will bring that radioactive cloud to the ground. It's invisible death... you cannot see or smell it... just symptoms.


I don't care what the news says; NO ONE knows the exact amount of radiation is coming from that area, and if I was on the west coast (California/Oregon/Washington) I'd be buying up every iodide pill available, along with access to a bunker.

As great as information trading is today, there are statements/revelations that are being held back in that country to stop mass chaos/fleeing.


There's going to be mass death occurring there in the next 2-5 months and no one wants to talk about it.


And no one wants to talk about these russian seismologists predicting a megaquake on the west coast.

These russians wouldn't be saying this unless they meant it.

Go check their history of predictions and you'll be scared into a new life.


Lots of things going on with the earth right now in regards to magnetics... this is the reason for a lot of things changing, the frequency.


Guess who's the biggest buyer of bunkers right now?


U.S. Government


Why do you think the space shuttle program is shut down?


Something huge is coming in 2012

Cookie
03-15-2011, 06:48 PM
So right. You are so absolutely right.


Those carriers are not going within harms way by risk of radiation exposure.

A 20 mile radius is being enacted in a no-fly zone and the US Navy has detected elevated levels... 200 miles away.

They've already mentioned that some, as many as 150 of the US Navy have been exposed to radiation. Their efforts now can lead to lifelong cancers, death down the road, when all of this mass tragedy is a memory.

They have snow in the forecast, rain which will bring that radioactive cloud to the ground. It's invisible death... you cannot see or smell it... just symptoms.


I don't care what the news says; NO ONE knows the exact amount of radiation is coming from that area, and if I was on the west coast (California/Oregon/Washington) I'd be buying up every iodide pill available, along with access to a bunker.

As great as information trading is today, there are statements/revelations that are being held back in that country to stop mass chaos/fleeing.


There's going to be mass death occurring there in the next 2-5 months and no one wants to talk about it.


And no one wants to talk about these russian seismologists predicting a megaquake on the west coast.

These russians wouldn't be saying this unless they meant it.

Go check their history of predictions and you'll be scared into a new life.


Lots of things going on with the earth right now in regards to magnetics... this is the reason for a lot of things changing, the frequency.


Guess who's the biggest buyer of bunkers right now?


U.S. Government


Why do you think the space shuttle program is shut down?


Something huge is coming in 2012

Dunbar Plumbing
03-15-2011, 10:14 PM
IF it was me, I'd be leaving the west coast after this revelation:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110316/ts_nm/us_japan_quake_wind_1


Radiation levels are 10 times higher in Tokyo,


If there was elevated levels of radiation on a ship, 200 miles from the nuclear site... and this wind is going to pick it up and take towards america at 34 feet per second...


This is more serious than anyone knows at this point... and it's going to come quickly and without warning.

Cookie
03-16-2011, 01:40 AM
I think, too, I would pass on most edible things if it is coming from Japan.

jimbo
03-16-2011, 07:29 AM
I think, too, I would pass on most edible things if it is coming from Japan.


I don't consider most japanese food "edible" in the first place, so taking a pass will present no problem!!!

Cookie
03-16-2011, 07:54 AM
By CHRISTOPHER BODEEN, Associated Press Christopher Bodeen, Associated Press – Wed Mar 16, 5:44 am ET

BEIJING – Japan's neighbors have ordered strengthened radiation monitoring of shipments from the earthquake-stricken country amid its frantic attempts to cool overheating reactors at a damaged nuclear power plant. The U.N. health body said there was no evidence of contamination outside Japan.

Regulators in China, which is Japan's largest trading partner, issued an order Wednesday calling for radiation monitoring to track any goods possibly contaminated by leaks from nuclear power reactors damaged by Friday's 9.0 magnitude earthquake and tsunami in northeastern Japan. Several other Asian nations were taking similar precautions.

A statement from the World Health Organization's China representative Michael O'Leary said WHO "would like to assure governments and members of the public that there is no evidence at this time of any significant international spread from the nuclear site" in Japan's northeast.

[Related: What is acute radiation syndrome?]

The statement also warned against rumors falsely saying a radiation cloud was spreading across Asia.

Japan ordered emergency workers to withdraw from the damaged nuclear plant in Fukushima on Wednesday amid a surge in radiation, temporarily suspending efforts to cool the overheating reactors.

Officials in Ibaraki prefecture (state), just south of Fukushima, said radiation levels were about 300 times normal levels by late morning. While those levels are unhealthy for prolonged periods, they are far from fatal. Fukushima is about 140 miles (220 kilometers) north of Tokyo.

Besides China, far eastern Russia and the Korean peninsula are Japan's closest neighbors.

The Russian Emergencies Ministry said Tuesday it had detected no increase in radiation levels.

South Korean officials said Wednesday they had strengthened radiation monitoring. Officials began to inspect all livestock and fisheries products imported from Japan for radiation contamination on Monday, according to the Ministry for Food, Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. In the past, only random samples were inspected.

[Related: What is radioactive iodine poisoning?]

About 50 tons of animal products, mostly cheese, have been tested so far but no contamination has been found, said ministry official Jang Jae-hong.

The state-run Korea Food & Drug Administration has also started radiation checks, agency official Oh Geum-sun said.

Two-way trade between South Korea and Japan reached about $92.5 billion last year, with Japan ranked as South Korea's second-largest trading partner after China. Trade between China and Japan in 2010 was about $300 billion.

The Department of Health in Taiwan, which is southwest of Japan, has begun checking food imports from the Fukushima area of Japan for radiation contamination, and airport officials are offering to scan any inbound passengers from Japan who are worried about radiation.

China's official Xinhua News Agency quoted Chinese meteorologists Wednesday as saying rain and snow forecast in northern Japan should help prevent any spread of radiation.

In Hong Kong, shoppers were buying up popular Japanese milk powder, fearing future supplies could be contaminated by radiation.

Hong Kong Secretary for Food and Health York Chow said the self-governing Chinese territory had stepped up checks of imported Japanese fresh food imported by air since Saturday, testing each shipment's radiation level, with no problems reported. Japanese imports make up a small amount of Hong Kong's total food imports.

Further away, Singapore said it has increased inspections of food imports from Japan.

An Indian government statement said customs authorities at ports and airports had been asked to test samples of food imported from Japan. India mainly imports Japanese processed foods, sea food, oil seeds and seeds of vegetables such as cauliflower and cabbage. It also gets citrus fruits, diary products, confectionery and tobacco products from Japan.

Malaysian airport authorities are screening passengers and cargo from Japan for radiation contamination, said Mohamad Yasin Sudin, an official with the Atomic Energy Licensing Board. Authorities are also checking food imports from Japan.

ballvalve
03-16-2011, 12:55 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_japan_earthquake;_ylt=Aolpa5FcKjRecpRmmp2MUMlg. 3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTM3Z2IyNnQ5BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwMzE2L 2FzX2phcGFuX2VhcnRocXVha2UEY2NvZGUDbXBfZWNfOF8xMAR jcG9zAzEEcG9zAzEEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHNsawNuZ Xdwb3dlcmxpbmU-

This article says they have been MANUALLY pumping water into the plants hot spots. If true, its quite pathetic. They still cant fly in a genset? WTF!

And the japanese imposed a 50 mile no fly zone on the US military - guess they do not want us to know whats really going on.

We need to import 'food' from Japan like we need to import corn from India. Seems like japan should be hoarding food, not shipping it here!


IF it was me, I'd be leaving the west coast after this revelation:

Dont be too sure of where the wind will blow. It might go straight to Cincinatti. But if I were Terry, I'd be building a bunker out of Toto's about 6 deep. And move my warehouse up on a high hill.

I have 2 rivers on my property, And a cut and cover wine cellar with 1-1/4" rebar on 6" centers. Enough wine and food to keep the family alive and drunk until times improve. And for my place to become ocean front property, You would need a 12.0 earthquake and melting of the entire ice cap. In which case Denver would be a place to go surfing.

Cookie
03-16-2011, 01:05 PM
Ah, but, it might mean after the fact, as I would presume.

Ian Gills
03-16-2011, 04:32 PM
Some good news is that the power company might now be able to restore power to the cooling pumps.

I really hope they are able to.

Let's hope they succeed where the USS George Washington clearly did not try.

Should have sent a bigger carrier. Evidently she just didn't have the juice. Is she diesel-powered?

Terry
03-16-2011, 05:08 PM
I live on somewhat of a hill. There is a holding pond on the same street, but just for the local neighbor hood and I'm higher then that.
I've never seen water in it in the last four years.
I remember when I was a kid, the main highway to the East over Snoqualmie Pass and to the closest skiing was I-90.
One Fall the river alongside the road decided to take out I-90 for about a mile. Water can do crazy things. My uncle had a cabin near a river on the other highway going over Stevens Pass, and my father had commented on his cabin being so close to the river. Before he sold it, it had been flooded three times.
It didn't wash away at least.
So after that, I don't live near a river. The nearest river is five hundred feet lower then my home. Now that would be some flood.

The no-fly zone is kind of scary. You would think they would take the help.

The british, do they still have those three mast sailing ships Ian?
Don't they heat with coal in England, and go chasing deer in the forests with bows and arrows?

Japan was warned more than two years ago by the international nuclear watchdog that its nuclear power plants were not capable of withstanding powerful earthquakes, leaked diplomatic cables reveal.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8384059/Japan-earthquake-Japan-warned-over-nuclear-plants-WikiLeaks-cables-show.html?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d8129a85da2d6c9%2C0

From the NYT: "A 1997 study by the Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island described a worst-case disaster from uncovered spent fuel in a reactor cooling pool. . . 100 quick . . . and 138,000 eventual deaths. . . 2,170 miles would be contaminated and damages would hit $546 billion. That section of the Brookhaven study focused on boiling water reactors — the kind at the heart of the Japanese crisis."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15fuel.html

master plumber mark
03-16-2011, 05:55 PM
Building Nukes all over the place and thinking they are completely safe .......... is like going to a gambling casino and being told you can never lose.....

you are told about the risk, but it is minimal and we will all be winners........

then you place your money on the roulette wheel and no matter where it comes up , you win..... with cheap energy,,, and a good life... everything is rigged to win.....

you let the money ride cause the odds of the wheel landing on 000 is almost impossible.....it cant happen in a thousand years....

the people running the casino, The NUKE industry, well they all get filthy rich too.... and you trust them so you let them build more NUKEs all over the planet....

but their is one thing that no one tells you as you get filthy rich riding that Nuculear wave to prosperity..... ....

YOU CANT TAKE YOUR MONEY OFF THE TABLE........;):o:cool:

so eventually , no mater how rich you or your children or their children get....
that thousand year sunami hits and everything is lost...

and we all start over at 0....


now humanity might have to witness something that is almost
something out of a horror movie.....

the best thing that could be done is to shut them all off along the
california coast before some thing bad happens .....

I dont think anyone here has the courage to
go into those buildings like the Japanese are doing.

they are not paying me enough to do that...


anyway,
pray for them all cause this is going to get
gruesome..... .

.



....

ballvalve
03-16-2011, 11:05 PM
Let's hope they succeed where the USS George Washington clearly did not try.

Should have sent a bigger carrier. Evidently she just didn't have the juice. Is she diesel-powered?

English humour aagaain, I must say. The fine Brit navy speaking: " Ay say, mate, let's beach that US carrier, put on our lead trousers, and drag a few miles of harbor freight extension cords through the tsunami surf... and I think we jolly well deserve a few cases of Guiness to keep our energy up"

The Brits would finally have a get go back at "George Washington", who proved what a pack of dolts their military really was [mostly hired mercenaries anyway]


So after that, I don't live near a river. The nearest river is five hundred feet lower then my home. Now that would be some flood.

In my case more of creeks than a stream, and I can visit the entire watershed of both in a few miles. So unless we get the 40 day rain, they are a huge benefit in a crisis for water and power. Here there was a water mill in 1848, and I would say it was about the 4th water mill ever built west of Utah. [gold milling] Soon, I hope to have about 5KW on a 24-7 basis, and make good use of this amazing water power. I am deep in the house and can still hear an amazing concert from the waterfall now.

Its a fairly solid rock creek channel, but there are some sheer cliff faces that should they cleave off in a monster quake, might create a very interesting natural dam.

National Geo has a feature on Atlantis this weekend - seems like good information that it was simply buried in a monster tsunami. Good timing on their part.

Seems to me the Japanese cheapened up because the real- estate was so expensive and scarce - packed too much in too little a space in a absurdly bad location. we have nuclear power in ARIZONA. You don't need a beach to make power! And 3 or 4 elevated gensets per reactor would have hurt the stockholders margins.

Dunbar Plumbing
03-16-2011, 11:36 PM
Radioactive Plume heading towards California (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/17/science/17plume.html)



I wish the best for everyone affected, but no one is taking any of this serious.


This went to 'no big deal' and 'nothing like chernobyl' to people being hit with radiation 200 miles away, 3 days ago....

People getting radiation on their shoes, so we know it's coming down,

and now, it's coming to the United States.


I encourage anyone with a true and accurate geiger counter to post youtube videos of the readings every day for the next few days if you live in California, because you certainly won't get a straight answer from the government in the true reality of how strong the radiation is.

If it's bad, they'll suppress it to prevent widespread panic. Kinda like they've been doing in japan already.


This is going down as a silent massive change of the world, everyone is watching in their lazyboy eating popcorn like it's just a movie, waiting for the next turn in the plot.

Cookie
03-17-2011, 07:21 AM
You are right in my books Steve. One thing with radiation is the uptake is concentrated in the stomach area, first seen will be stomach problems. Since the radiation is going in that direction with Calif I would be hesitate to buy the food grown there for a while, a long while. It will taint the farms. It is a huge problem.

Mark mentioned when something happens with the nuclear power plants it takes you back to square 0, actually, to minus 0.

Ian Gills
03-17-2011, 08:14 AM
English humour aagaain, I must say.

Not really. Just interest and perhaps concern with exactly what the largest aircraft carrier in the world together with 13 other US vessels and thousands of marines are doing there, for which US taxpayers will be footing the bill.

For example, I find it incredible that they did not deal with the nuclear problem there days ago, when it was far less serious.

No-one even mentioned the possibility whether they could assist.

If we were the ones with the big carrier, it would have been job done.

If it were a problem on the US Coast, it would have been job done.

We only now hear that "the US has been asked to fly a drone over the site to help assess the situation."

Better late than never.

Cookie
03-17-2011, 08:28 AM
I find it funny that the US is always condemned. If we help, we are condemned for interfering, and people ask, " why are they there?" and some add, that we are trying to run the world; if we don't help, we are condemned for not helping. If we think of our country first, we are condemned. We are simply damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Ian Gills
03-17-2011, 08:31 AM
There is no condemnation. But somebody has to ask the tough questions.

And it's America that taught me to do that. I am thankful it did.

Cookie
03-17-2011, 10:29 AM
Sure, their is condemnation. America has always been the one the finger has been pointed at, we are always in the no-win, no-win situation. It doesn't matter if we help or we don't help, the results are certainly, going to be the same for us. I read the one part, where you mentioned about risking the lives of some American soldiers like we are disposable. Other countries got to learn something, that if you want to play ball, you got to learn the game. In other words, to go the distance in making things safe, safe, as safe as possible, to depend on their own resources, too, not just the USA's. It is what it is Ian. If incapable to do something, or don't have the resources, or even, in this case, the location where to place a nuclear power plant, then, simply do not do it. Look for other means to find a solution to the needs of their population. Why simply, are our lives disposable? They are not. You may think you find many things wrong with our country, but we still are the best in the world. You got to ask yourself why this is so. Why is it all the other countries look at us when they find their country in a dilemma. Why are we to get involved when we get condemned and sacastically looked upon, as the police of the world.

Cookie
03-17-2011, 10:33 AM
To offer to help is one thing, but to be expected to, is another.
Have they even asked?

I know people who want your help, but they won't ask. It makes me not want to help. Ask for help, not expect it. Show gratitude when someone offers help, or gives it, when asked.

Ian Gills
03-17-2011, 11:26 AM
Why simply, are our lives disposable?

I did not say they were.

I wanted to simply hint at the fact that the US has lost, to-date, over 6,000 servicemen and women in the wars against Iraq and Afghanistan. And for what?

And yet not a single life is put in harms way to save potentially thousands from the nuclear fall out in Japan. Your ally. And the third richest country in the world.

For example, the US has just said that it will consider, but not guarantee, any request from the Japanese to send any member of its military into the 50 mile exclusion zone. Thanks guys.

The lesson from all this is that we need to stop fighting wars and start helping each other out more.

ballvalve
03-17-2011, 11:46 AM
This went to 'no big deal' and 'nothing like chernobyl' to people being hit with radiation 200 miles away, 3 days ago....

People getting radiation on their shoes, so we know it's coming down,

and now, it's coming to the United States.

No one remembers that we blew off dozens of huge hiroshima x5 size bombs in NEVADA in the 50's and 60'S? In the air???? You guys in Ohio and Wisconsin got a dose like the fireman in Japan today.

Hello! thats about 500 chernobyls, and most of us are still alive. Then you have Hiroshima, Where many of your Japanese cars are being made now, with 5 times the population after the bomb dropped. Good morning America.

Then you have Bikiini Island, where life thrives boldly after total nuclear destruction.

And people in Bulgaria are lining up to buy iodide! 6000 mile from japans little fart of gas.

And in the basements of many east coast houses, the radiation levels from radon gas are like inside a containment building.

Take it easy - have a big cigar and drink a bottle of red wine to wash down that nasty seaweed sheet.


Since the radiation is going in that direction with Calif I would be hesitate to buy the food grown there for a while, a long while. It will taint the farms. It is a huge problem

Better to buy from the locals, but get ready for a winter of potatoes and cabbages. After Chernobyl, little food contaminants were found in western and most of eastern europe. And they were only 500 to 2000 miles from the big blow, which went directly their way. Depending on the wind and rain, Iowa may get more 'radioactivity' than california.

Cookie
03-17-2011, 12:09 PM
I can safely assume you were never treated for cancer with chemo then. Or rads. Or your attitude wouldn't be so casual. Chemo is a really REALLY hard thing to do. I can't tell you how hard a thing to do. Yet, I did it for 5 years and 3 months, tied to a pink chair. I would had rather been anywhere short of the afterlife. Treating cancer is no walk in the park nor for the weak. On a good day, I was able to stand up.

Cookie
03-17-2011, 01:02 PM
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/CHERNOBYL%3b+Leukaemia%2c+stunted+growth%2c+cancer %2c+stomach+problems%2c...-a0144552045

Byline: ANTON ANTONOWICZ in Ukraine

THE temperature registers four degrees below freezing. The radiation meter registers red "ALARM".

We're standing 200 yards from the concrete sarcophagus sarcophagus (sδrkŏf`əgəs) [Gr.,=flesh-eater], name given by the Greeks to a special marble found in Asia Minor, near the territory of ancient Troy, and used in caskets. that entombs reactor 4 at Chernobyl, site of the world's worst nuclear accident. We are allowed less than two minutes to do so.

It is 20 years since the reactor overheated and exploded during a bungled
electrical test. Another generation has been born. It, too, is about to produce families.

And their children are fated - like so many of their parents before them - to be victims of Chernobyl.

A report about to be published by Greenpeace suggests that at least 30,000 people will die around the world from cancers caused by the catastrophe which unfolded in 44 seconds after operators activated their "experiment" at 1.23am on April 26, 1986.

Other studies claim 180,000 will die. Ukrainian statisticians produce figures of more than 500,000 deaths in Ukraine alone. No one knows for sure. But all fly in the face of Verb 1. fly in the face of - go against; "This action flies in the face of the agreement"
fly in the teeth of
go against, violate, break - fail to agree with; be in violation of; as of rules or patterns; "This sentence violates the rules of syntax" the International Atomic Energy Agency's estimate last year that no more than 4,000 will eventually die.

We discovered the real cost of this catastrophe. Hospitals staggering under a relentless tide of children with leukaemia Children With Leukaemia is a registered charity (no. 298405) inaugurated in 1988 by Diana, Princess of Wales in memory of Jean and Paul O'Gorman. The charity supports and organises events and money raising to aid children struck with leukaemia. , thyroid cancer Thyroid Cancer
Definition

Thyroid cancer is a disease in which the cells of the thyroid gland become abnormal, grow uncontrollably, and form a mass of cells called a tumor. , intestinal problems. Once-strong men barely able to walk. Women having to abort one in three pregnancies after scans showed deformities.

"They assured us that we would fulfil our dream of having a peaceful atom in every home," says Konstantin Tatuyan, 56, a radio engineer who spent seven years as a "liquidator", cleaning Chernobyl's contaminated remains. "But it was no dream. It was the Devil's nightmare."

I thought of him as I stood in the power plant's observation room. He helped build it. Now he is an invalid with arteriosclerosis arteriosclerosis , chronic bronchitis, diabetes, thyroid swelling. Of his 11 colleagues, four are dead.

When he suffered his last heart attack the hospital refused to send an ambulance. It did not want an irradiated liquidator contaminating the building and staff. Liquidators were once hailed as heroes.

More than 600,000 helped the clean-up. Most of those first to arrive, particularly the firefighters, died early. For others it took longer.

We travel to Pripiat, a mile from the plant. It was evacuated 36 hours after the blast. Its 52,000 people were told they would be back within three days. They never returned.

Now it is a city of the dead. A restaurant, hotel, Palace of Culture and sports stadium ring a square once blazing with red roses. Around them are five-storey blocks of flats, windowless, trashed, looted.

The hotel roof is buckling after 20 seasons of snow. Trees, some 30ft high, sprout on the centre spot of the football pitch. A yellow Ferris wheel rusts in the playground. My dosimeter
an instrument used to detect and measure exposure to radiation. crackles with radiation.

IRINA, our translator, begins to cry when we enter the kindergarten and see little shoes, rotting rag dolls, twisted iron beds.

And mini gas masks from a safety drill two days before the explosion, redundant symbols of safety against an unscented, invisible killer.

The snow lies a foot deep. The wild boar shelter here at night. So do the wolves. The river abounds in giant catfish. It is wildlife as nature intended. Untended. Mushrooms, berries, bright green moss. All irradiated.

And, at its centre, this city like a forgotten set from Mad Max - or a snapshot of the apocalypse.

Though the villages seem abandoned, there are returnees. Maria and Mikhail Urupa receive us like relatives. They live at house No 39 in Parishev village. There used to be 700 villagers. Now there are 15. There are no children.

The couple, both 71, returned in 1987. They say this is their land, the place of their ancestors. Maria says: "Thank God, we must be loved by Him because we are still healthy. Many of the people who were relocated died quickly. Of course, some here are sick. But not us. Why? I don't know. But I'm positive we'd have died if we had been relocated."

They keep chickens and turkeys and grow vegetables. A food lorry brings supplies twice a month. They have a phone, a freezer, a TV and, in a corner, a gold icon of St Ilya which they took from the abandoned parish church "for safe keeping".

"My son tells us not to eat the mushrooms or berries. I promise not to, but..." Maria adds with a shrug.

Ivan Gnydenko is eating goulash gou·lash

2. A mixture of many different elements; a hodgepodge. and potatoes at his home in Chernobyl town. He returned with his two sons seven years ago. "I don't have a dosimeter and I don't care," says the tiny 70-year-old. `"Danger? I don't feel it here. I get headaches and double vision. That's all."

We travel 500 kilometres east to Budymla, a hamlet in the Polissya marshes. The people live off the forest. The radioactive soot which fell here remains near the surface, absorbed by the plants.

It is a contaminated zone, with 335 villages more irradiated than many areas far closer to Chernobyl.

I came after meeting a 10-year-old girl, Yana Molchanovich, in a hospital two hours' drive away. Her thin face was pale as moonlight. She has anaemia anaemia

see anemia. , kidney disease, stunted growth. She is one of 30 such children receiving treatment there.

Five-year-old Anastasia Shevnya lies quiet as the chemotherapy line pumps drugs to fight her leukaemia. "She is a child who rarely smiles," says her nurse. "Just a single smile is a present for us."

But Yana smiles. She laughs as she describes Budymla and all her friends and her family.

Her mother Valentyna has seven other children. She shrugs: "Chernobyl is a sorrow for the nation. But for me... radiation? I can't feel it, see it. So I'm not afraid of it." Her pretty daughter Svieta is eight but can't run. Her knees are weak from radioactive caesium caesium

Thyroid cancer multiplied 100 times in children after 1986. Respiratory diseases, birth abnormalities, skin complaints, digestive problems, cataracts, organ malfunction all soared.

But worse. It is increasing. "And now we see the real nightmare," says Professor Evgeniya Stepanova of the Centre for Radiation Medicine in the capital, Kiev.

"There is an increase in chromosome aberrations, mutations in DNA DNA: see nucleic acid.
DNA
or deoxyribonucleic acid

One of two types of nucleic acid (the other is RNA); a complex organic compound found in all living cells and many viruses. It is the chemical substance of genes. construction. And as time passes there are more and more children being born with these problems.

"The highest number are the kids born to liquidators. But we don't know for how many generations this will go on.

"What will happen when such men and women now meet and their children inherit these mutations? The problem is getting worse while world attention is becoming less."

At Chernobyl itself the sarcophagus is leaking. It will soon be replaced by an all-encompassing concrete arc costing $2billion with a life of 100 years.

After that, another arc. And another, until we find a way of dealing with a killer lasting thousands of years.

That is the Chernobyl legacy whose sky-high footprint contaminated half of Europe, including hundreds of farms in North West England
See also:

North West England is one of the nine official regions of England. It has a population of 6,853,200[1] and comprises five counties of England – Cumbria, Lancashire, Greater Manchester, Merseyside and Cheshire. and Scotland.

ALEGACY, experts said this month, which caused 1,000 British babies to die of cancer. A legacy for millennia.

I remember ex-liquidator Majorov Volodamir Antonovich, 69, crying in his hospital bed. "Don't listen to any International Atomic whatnot," he said. "This stuff is killing people.

"You see the children sick, the newborn with eight fingers and no ears. You see women afraid to give birth. I see my son with his 'Chernobyl necklace' - the scar left after they removed the gland.

"Ask the men about their ****** problems. Ask many of them if they can perform in bed. That is Chernobyl. Not radiophobia or mass hysteria. It's Chernobyl. It's people not understanding the box of snakes they opened."

And I think of Einstein's words: "The splitting of the atom has changed everything except our way of thinking and thus we drift towards unparalleled catastrophe."

It is 20 years since this catastrophe, a generation's span, yet we still cannot measure its unparalleled consequences.

Cookie
03-17-2011, 02:54 PM
The thing which worries me are the people who out of fear will deny the seriousness of it all, without even realizing they are doing it. Kind of like burying your head in the sand.

We all know those people, ie, people who smoke and laugh it off saying, " we all got to die from something." Yet, those are the very people when something does happen, they can't confront it on.

It won't be any different I imagine with this going on. I imagine, everyone will eventually, hear someone say that, " we all got to die from something." It is denial.

Redwood
03-17-2011, 10:29 PM
I don't consider most japanese food "edible" in the first place, so taking a pass will present no problem!!!

Yea... More like cut bait...

ballvalve
03-18-2011, 12:54 PM
I have been to Chernobyl and lived with doctors that treat the locals and birth the babies, so I know better than most what un-wanted chemo-therapy is like.

I think we are all getting cancer because we are living beyond the old norm of about 40 years, and all that crap we put on our lawns back in the 60's. And soda. And MTV

I am not advocating for nuclear meltdown, just saying that its way overrated.

Look at the gulf spill. Seems the bacteria gobbled up all the oil!

[New Yorker article this week]

Like Woody Allan said; "god only gave me so many heartbeats at birth, so why should I squander them exercising?"

Cookie
03-18-2011, 03:34 PM
Unfortunately, unless you personally have the draino dripped into your veins, or a port in your chest you really do not have a clue of what it feels like. My mother had chemo, and I didn't know what it was like until, I had to use the dreaded stuff. I spent a long time, getting it, nodding off like a drunk from the anti rejection drugs, I breathed out smoke from my mouth, ( when I wasn't smoking it was from the drugs), I had a heart attack after 5 minutes of infusion once on Rituxan, they knew to have the crash cart there because it is a "side effect" of the drug during the first 15 minutes of it, and, I went on to have another one, too. I stopped breathing during one, due to a reaction, and nearly, died. I saw my mom, my dad, 1 aunt, and 6 uncles experience chemo, but until, it was my turn, I truthfully, have to admit, I didn't have a clue. Watching others experience is unlike doing it. It is horrific.

And, it isn't due to our living beyond 40 years, it is for a variety of reasons, far too many to cite here. But, a biggie... genes. Genes my friend.

Environment. The lawn service crap you mentioned, which I know of a pathologist whose son has NHL due to the stuff running from their neighbor's lawn into their basement. He had it analyzed and they moved. Not a certainty, but a pretty good maybe for their son Ryan.

Vaccines. Oh, boy vaccines from the 50's and 60's. SVP 40, the monkey virus they used to base it with.

And, of course all the nuclear radiation. From the sun, and from us.

Woody Allen was in denial when he wrote that quote.

Just being very honest with you. Life changes the minute they start that drip.

Quite honestly, I will tell you, you have to talk yourself out of wanting to die.

I would sit there and focus on my 11 and 12 year's faces back when I started... It is that bad. I would think of them, and keep fighting, trying not to acknowledge the pain some chemos caused, and morphine and nothing could stop. I would sit there and think of all the reasons to live and squeeze my eyes, so I wouldn't shed a tear.

Like my husband would tell me, " you are a trooper."

Do not make the mistake of thinking you know what it is like, or even remotely, because you cannot.

Do not understimate the damage caused by this meltdown. Do not take it casually. What it can cause and the pain involved is unthinkable.

ballvalve
03-18-2011, 04:12 PM
I suppose the key is not giving up. Good reading for persons on chemo is memoirs from the german death camps.

Only those that never gave up survived, and of course many of those died too. Genes, luck and perseverence are the ruling forces, but that's pretty close to gambling.

But then you might get a stupid doctor, and die anyway. No fairness in life.

Cookie
03-18-2011, 04:35 PM
Well, my dad was war torn and deaf from battle when he marched into Germany to free those in the camps. I was the son my dad always wanted as I was interested in his memories and listened well. He was shell-shocked, now called, PTSS, his entire life, nothing no one could fix for him. But, his memories made me both compassionate and strong. He explained having battle fatique like this: he would point to his head and say, " never make a fox hole up here." He went on saying, " there is never anyplace to hide, only stay and fight." He was referring I think to his own battles during the war, and seeing the concentration camp suvivors. He would sit and sob, and say, " they should had fought, they should had fought..." He never got over the horror that man can inflict on another.

But, when I was first diagnosed I remembered him pointing to his head and what he said. I heard his words. Even though the prognosis was less than desired, and my chance was slim to non, I said, " daddy, this is for you." And, I fought! Even when I was told this is going to be horrible, these drugs bring a big man down to his knees and the oncologist ending up apologizing to me; hearing your veins will burn, you won't see for a while, you won't be able to eat and maybe, not be able to drink, even when they told me, that I would turn blue. I mean smurf blue. Eyes and all. My eyes are still blue, green with blue rings around them.

Genes. Our DNA can be changed permanently due to certain chemicals. Like the vaccines from the 50 and the 60's. Our offspring has that DNA now, and the chance for that word and thought, no one wants or likes to think about.

Take seriously anything that is a possiblity to cause you to have to go through what I did. I hear people saying, " oh, everything causes cancer, breathing causes cancer." I shudder when I hear that. It is their casual attitude about something so dreadful, something, that makes you rethink living or dying, that makes me shudder. I shudder at their ignorance. I have to walk away...

You cannot live your life in a bubble, but, I don't stand in a roomful of smokers, I don't go to tanning beds, I live with weeds and crabgrass and I wouldn't visit Japan now, or for a long, long time, even, if I won free plane tickets.

Redwood
03-18-2011, 06:48 PM
Look at the gulf spill. Seems the bacteria gobbled up all the oil!

Interesting....
Samantha Joye seems to have found what the Bacteria Missed....
http://gulfblog.uga.edu/

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/avitars%20and%20emocons/bdcd6af6.jpg

Cookie
03-18-2011, 07:59 PM
Yuk. . .

ballvalve
03-18-2011, 09:38 PM
Interesting....
Samantha Joye seems to have found what the Bacteria Missed....
http://gulfblog.uga.edu/

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/avitars%20and%20emocons/bdcd6af6.jpg

Interesting article about hypersaturated brines, but she did not determine the oil was from BP.

The gulf is a region of massive natural and now unnatural seeps, and it is well equipped to dispense of either type. The disperants kept it out of the marsh [and opening the gates of the Mississippi] and broke it up into smaller particles that allowed the bacteria to feed happily.

Corexit seems to be well proven even by the enviro's as better than crude oil, and without any DNA changing effects on life, or less than oil.

Not to say we should not take BP's billions for their f-up, or continue to study and make better dispersants.

New Yorker magazine. Latest one I think. The author started out as a mission to impeach BP, but learned that they did a good job after all the hype.

If we do not build more nuclear, better start drilling like wild today in the gulf.

ballvalve
03-18-2011, 10:38 PM
He was referring I think to his own battles during the war, and seeing the concentration camp suvivors. He would sit and sob, and say, " they should had fought, they should had fought..." He never got over the horror that man can inflict on another.

He should have read the book "Defiance", which is now a movie. Some fought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defiance_(2008_film)

Or "I survived [and escaped] Auswitzch" by a Slovak Jew. Rudolf Vrba, from my families hometown.

Probably the best is "Maus", done in cartoon format, by a son that was trying to figure out how his father did not end up with PTSS, or go insane after his suffering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maus

Cookie
03-19-2011, 06:56 AM
Fact is: Not enough did fight. The amount which died sustantiates that fact. Fear freezes some folks. Denial is another great contributor to folks doing nothing, sometimes, the mind cannot fathom such things can happen. Sad fact about PTSS is so many times it is not recognized as such. Some folks are never diagnosed with it therefore, never treated for it. They might be treated for addictions, rehabiliated over and over, with everyone wondering why it never works. They are reprimanded for not being able to hold a job, for drinking too much, for doing nothing seemingly, with their lives, but some are never treated for the real illness. Not even diagnosed. Then, when they start talking about some trauma you can hear they do not use the first person, they distant theirselves from it, like they are talking about someone else, and it is then, they will say, " I don't know why I didn't go insane." Truth is, they did. For a split second long enough to isolate themselves from the horror of the trauma. Just long enough that in their mind, they find a way to control the pain, the horror the mind cannot sustain, and make it like a movie instead of the real thing. I have volunteered for years working with the veteran's at the VA. Kids especially, will not see it in their fathers or mom's, kids only sees what hurts them. You will hear a kid say, " my dad ( or mom) was never there for me, he never was a "real" dad." Or you will hear a son or daughter, never acknowledge the parent's PTSS, for they see it ( if they even see it) as a weakness, a son will especially, do this and with it, coupled a whole lot of anger. Because it wasn't what they wanted in life, or in a parent to look up to, or be like.

Cookie
03-19-2011, 07:15 AM
By SHINO YUASA and ERIC TALMADGE, Associated Press Shino Yuasa And Eric Talmadge, Associated Press – 1 hr 4 mins ago

FUKUSHIMA, Japan – Japan said radiation levels in spinach and milk from farms near its tsunami-crippled nuclear complex exceeded government safety limits, as emergency teams scrambled Saturday to restore power to the plant so it could cool dangerously overheated fuel.

The food was taken from farms as far as 65 miles (100 kilometers) from the stricken plants, suggesting a wide area of nuclear contamination.

While the radiation levels exceeded the limits allowed by the government, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano insisted the products "pose no immediate health risk."

Firefighters also pumped tons of water directly from the ocean into one of the most troubled areas of the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex — the cooling pool for used fuel rods at the plant's Unit 3. The rods are at risk of burning up and sending radioactive material into the environment.

The news of contaminated food came as Japan continued to grapple with the overwhelming consequences of the cascade of disasters unleashed by a 9.0-magnitude earthquake on March 11. The quake spawned a tsunami that ravaged Japan's northeastern coast, killing more than 7,300 people and knocking out backup cooling systems at the nuclear plant, which has been leaking radiation.

Nearly 11,000 people are still missing.

The tainted milk was found 20 miles (30 kilometers) from the plant, a local official said. The spinach was collected from six farms between 60 miles (100 kilometers) and 75 miles (120 kilometers) to the south of the reactors.

Those areas are rich farm country known for melons, rice and peaches, so the contamination could affect food supplies for large parts of Japan.

More testing was being done on other foods, Edano said in Tokyo, and if tests show further contamination then food shipments from the area would be halted.

Officials said it was too early to know if the nuclear crisis caused the contamination, but Edano said air sampling done near the dairy showed higher radiation levels.

Iodine levels in the spinach exceeded safety limits by three to seven times, a food safety official said. Tests on the milk done Wednesday detected small amounts of iodine 131 and cesium 137, the latter being a longer lasting element and can cause more types of cancer. But only iodine was detected Thursday and Friday, a Health Ministry official said.

Officials from Edano on down tried to calm public jitters, saying the amounts detected were so small that people would have to consume unimaginable amounts to endanger their health.

Edano said someone drinking the tainted milk for one year would consume as much radiation as in a CT scan; for the spinach, it would be one-fifth of a CT scan. A CT scan is a compressed series of X-rays used for medical tests.

"Can you imagine eating one kilogram of spinach every day for one year?" State Secretary of Health Minister Yoko Komiyama said. One kilogram is a little over two pounds.

Meanwhile, just outside the bustling disaster response center in the city of Fukushima, 40 miles (60 kilometers) northwest of the plant, government nuclear specialist Kazuya Konno was able to take only a three-minute break for his first meeting since the quake with his wife, Junko, and their children.

"It's very nerve-racking. We really don't know what is going to become of our city," said Junko Konno, 35. "Like most other people, we have been staying indoors unless we have to go out."

She brought her husband a small backpack with a change of clothes and snacks. The girls — aged 4 and 6 and wearing pink surgical masks decorated with Mickey Mouse — gave their father hugs.

Low levels of radiation have been detected well beyond Tokyo, which is 140 miles (220 kilometers) south of the plant, but hazardous levels have been limited to the plant itself.

Nuclear reactors at the Fukushima plant began overheating and leaking radiation into the atmosphere in the days after the March 11 quake and the subsequent tsunami overwhelmed its cooling systems. The government admitted it was slow to respond to the nuclear troubles, which added another crisis on top of natural disasters, which officials believe killed more than 10,000 people and displaced more than 400,000 others.

There were signs of progress in bringing the overheating reactors and fuel storage pools under control.

A fire truck with a high-pressure cannon was parked outside the plant's Unit 3, about 300 meters (yards) from the Pacific coast, and began shooting a stream of water nonstop into the pool for seven straight hours, said Kenji Kawasaki, a spokesman for the nuclear safety agency.

A separate pumping vehicle will keep the fire truck's water tank refilled. Because of high radiation levels, firefighters will only go to the truck every three hours when it needs to be refueled. They expect to pump about 1,400 tons of water, nearly the capacity of the pool.

Edano said conditions at the reactors in units 1, 2 and 3 — all of which have been rocked by explosions in the past eight days — had "stabilized."

Holes were punched in the roofs of units 5 and 6 to vent buildups of hydrogen gas, and the temperature in Unit 5's fuel storage pool dropped after new water was pumped in, Tokyo Electric Power Co. said.

"We more or less do not expect to see anything worse than what we are seeing now," said Hidehiko Nishiyama of the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency.

Although a replacement power line reached the complex Friday, workers had to methodically work through badly damaged and deeply complex electrical systems to make the final linkups without setting off a spark and potentially an explosion. Company officials hoped to be able to switch on the all the reactors' power on Sunday.

Even once the power is reconnected, it is not clear if the cooling systems will still work.

The storage pools need a constant source of cooling water. When removed from reactors, uranium rods are still very hot and must be cooled for months, possibly longer, to prevent them from heating up again and emitting radioactivity.

More workers were thrown into the effort — bringing the total at the complex to 500 — and the safety threshold for radiation exposure for them was raised two-and-a-half times so that they could keep working.

Officials insisted that would cause no health damage.

Nishiyama also said backup power systems at the plant had been improperly protected, leaving them vulnerable to the tsunami.

The failure of Fukushima's backup power systems, which were supposed to keep cooling systems going in the aftermath of the massive 9.0-magnitude earthquake, let uranium fuel overheat and were a "main cause" of the crisis, Nishiyama said.

"I cannot say whether it was a human error, but we should examine the case closely," he told reporters.

A spokesman for Tokyo Electric Power Co., which owns and runs the plants, said that while the generators themselves were not directly exposed to the waves, some electrical support equipment was outside. The complex was protected against tsunamis of up to 5 meters (16 feet), he said. Media reports say the tsunami was at least 6 meters (20 feet) high when it struck Fukushima.

Spokesman Motoyasu Tamaki also acknowledged that the complex was old, and might not have been as well-equipped as newer facilities.

People evacuated from around the plant, along with some emergency workers, have tested positive for radiation exposure. Three firefighters needed to be decontaminated with showers, while among the 18 plant workers who tested positive, one absorbed about one-tenth tenth of the amount that might induce radiation poisoning.

As Japan crossed the one-week mark since the cascade of disasters began, the government conceded Friday it was slow to respond and welcomed ever-growing help from the U.S. in hopes of preventing a complete meltdown.

The United States has loaned military firefighting trucks to the Japanese, and has conducted overflights of the reactor site, strapping sophisticated pods onto aircraft to measure radiation aloft. Two tests conducted Thursday gave readings that U.S. Deputy Energy Secretary Daniel B. Poneman said reinforced the U.S. recommendation that people stay 50 miles (80 kilometers) away from the Fukushima plant. Japan has ordered only a 12-mile (20-kilometer) evacuation zone around the plant.

The government on Friday raised the accident classification for the nuclear crisis, putting it on a par with the Three Mile Island accident in Pennsylvania in 1979, and signifying that its consequences went beyond the local area.

This crisis has led to power shortages and factory closures, hurt global manufacturing and triggered a plunge in Japanese stock prices.

Police said more than 452,000 people made homeless by the quake and tsunami were staying in schools and other shelters, as supplies of fuel, medicine and other necessities ran short.

On Saturday evening, Japan was rattled by 6.1-magnitude aftershock, with an epicenter just south of the troubled nuclear plants. The temblor, centered 150 kilometers (90 miles) northeast of Tokyo, caused buildings in the capital to shake.

Cookie
03-19-2011, 07:49 AM
I say, let's build more of these. ( cookie snickers)
So, we can do this every hundred years or so.

ballvalve
03-19-2011, 08:02 AM
This, I hope is a wake up call to america to re-open strategic metal stockpiles and bring home its lost manufacturing base.

And to restrict the crazy international flow of food back and forth that wastes so much fuel. Buy locally.

And keep electricity out of the ocean and basements of power plants. And open Yucca mountain tomorrow.

Cookie
03-19-2011, 09:32 AM
Sometimes to go forward, we need to take a few steps backward. If nuclear power is the wave of the future, God helps us all and this planet.

nukeman
03-19-2011, 08:53 PM
These plants have held up pretty well considering. They withstood a 9.0 quake, eventhough they were designed for less. The tsunami is what caused the problems. In addition, the hydrogen explosions wouldn't have happened if the plants would have been here either. After TMI, there was an extensive review of the current plants. In these BWRs, they moved the venting path that originally went from primary to secondary containment to the outside. Obviously, the Japanese plants did not do this. The hydrogen continued to build up in the buildings (venting by procedure) and caused those explosions. The typical containment designs found in the US are filled with watertight doors. There are constant inspections where these are checked to make sure they are closed and that the seal is good.

The wave flooded the switchgear room and wiped out many of the diesel tanks. It was a common-cause failure since these plants all shared the same basic design (same weakness).

If you worry that much about radiation, you might as well live in a lead room and never leave (eventhough that still wouldn't keep all radiation out). Radiation is everywhere. Everytime you fly or go to higher elevations, you get a larger dose from space. Certain soil types are going to release more radiation, not to mention many stones. You may not know this, but coal plants release much more radiation than any nuke plant (traces of uranium and other products in the coal and goes into the air as it burns).

What bothers me is the focus on these plants when how many people have been killed by the disaster??? Why don't people say "Hey, why didn't they design their buildings to withstand a 9.0 quake and a 30' wave??" Many of these people would still be alive if normal constuction was designed/built like a nuke plant.

People have asked about the CA plants being in a earthquake area. The quake wasn't the problem (the water was). There has been questions about MOX fuel and that it is "bad" becuase it contains plutonium. The fact is that ALL fuel (after used) contains plutonium. It is a byproduct of the reaction and a good portion of the energy that is released as the fuel gets older is due to using plutonium.

There has been a ton of bad info in the NEWS (especially early on, but it continues).

master plumber mark
03-20-2011, 07:14 AM
someone on U-tube recently stated that this disaster will eventually
play out like the mass ecavuation of a million people from Vietnam after
the end of that war..in 74.. they all came over here by the boatloads and became model citizens.

Actually, the only place they can come if it is intolerable to live there is going to be canada and the west coast of the united states..... perhaps Australia.

Japan is only about the size of California so they all cant cram into one end of the isalnd
so we could get a huge influx of refugees from japan

the only question is how many ?????

and considering everything,
they are a better calss of people than the mexican drug invasion..
we are dealing with on the southern border...:D

Cookie
03-20-2011, 07:16 AM
I don't think it will matter much to those caught up into it (the destruction & contamination) that the tsunami caused it, contaminating their food and water supply, and making things much worse than needed to be. Nuclear power is not all that is it cracked up to be, when you are the one caught up in the contamination, or your loved ones. We made those power plants not the tsunami, we haven't the controls over something which occurs naturally, but man-made we certainty, do. Our world isn't capable of controlling that kind of power, not yet, anyways, maybe, never. We need to look to other options.

ballvalve
03-20-2011, 11:09 AM
One small, 'fail safe' nuclear plant should be in every third county in the US. Jobs for the locals and jobs to build a standardized plant like a volkwagen beetle on an assembly line. And no 'smart' meters that will be shut off from hong kong by a hacker.

Now we can save our oil and coal for plastics and hybrids, and snub our collective noses at the mideast that will be the ruin of us.

Until we get smart enough to occupy a few and stay there forever.

Redwood
03-20-2011, 06:19 PM
Interesting article about hypersaturated brines, but she did not determine the oil was from BP.

The gulf is a region of massive natural and now unnatural seeps, and it is well equipped to dispense of either type. The disperants kept it out of the marsh [and opening the gates of the Mississippi] and broke it up into smaller particles that allowed the bacteria to feed happily.

Corexit seems to be well proven even by the enviro's as better than crude oil, and without any DNA changing effects on life, or less than oil.

Not to say we should not take BP's billions for their f-up, or continue to study and make better dispersants.

New Yorker magazine. Latest one I think. The author started out as a mission to impeach BP, but learned that they did a good job after all the hype.

If we do not build more nuclear, better start drilling like wild today in the gulf.

Yes, Ballvalve we'd all like to be optimists and believe that the oil has simply disappeared into the gullet of hungry microbes....
The Corexit Dispersants sure did a good job of making sure that it didn't get to the surface...

Say could I interest you in a plate of gulf shrimp?

http://media.nola.com/2010_gulf_oil_spill/photo/seafood-sniffers-oil-spilljpg-ce2eafa48f0a78e7_large.jpg

It smells good go ahead and eat it!

nukeman
03-20-2011, 06:26 PM
If this happened in my area, I wouldn't be worried about it. I understand the difference between measured radiation/contaimination and the levels that are required to actually hurt you. The fact is that the only significant releases were at the site and most was "shine" from the fuel pools when the level got low. "Shine" is when you have a direct path with no shielding from typically a gamma source.

If any other type of plant were there, I think we would have seen even more destruction. Think of what a natural gas plant would have done or an oil burner. Coal can make quite a mess too. Look at this fly ash mess that happened awhile back:

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/dec/23/fly-ash-flood-covers-acres/

It's not nuclear, so it doesn't get near the coverage. The fact is that things can go wrong at any plant and many more people have died from any of the other sources of power than they have from nuclear (coal, natural gas, oil, etc.). Nuclear is tops in terms of safety (especially in the US). When things like this happens, we go back and take what can be learned and implement it into the designs.

ballvalve
03-20-2011, 06:58 PM
Yes, Ballvalve we'd all like to be optimists and believe that the oil has simply disappeared into the gullet of hungry microbes....
The Corexit Dispersants sure did a good job of making sure that it didn't get to the surface...

Didnt go to the bottom either. Sorry, no oil or corexit found in any shrimp yet. Just got a 25# bag of them, heads on. The heads are the best part. Probably filled with oil processing bacteria. From 3 million years ago.


A team of federal scientists had estimated that the total amount of oil that came from the well was 4.9 million barrels. Writer accompanies NOAA scientists on board a ship looking for oil plumes beneath the surface of the Gulf. Research in the Gulf has in many ways been encouraging. At the shoreline, pockets of oil will certainly linger. Although certain species may be at severe risk from the remaining oil, many others, such as sea turtles, do not seem to be under great threat, and the marsh as a whole does not appear to be ecologically devastated. All told, the spill killed fifty-six hundred birds, a dismaying number, but a small fraction of the quarter million that died in the Exxon Valdez spill. Oysters have suffered gravely, though this appears to be from the change in salinity caused by allowing the Mississippi to flow more forcefully into the Gulf. Luck certainly played a role in sparing large portions of the coast—a turn in the weather could have made the impact much worse—but a strategy based on dispersing the oil offshore appears to have helped prevent a great deal of crude from hitting land.
Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/03/14/110314fa_fact_khatchadourian#ixzz1HCAwc3UZ

The Itaxca spill, several times larger and more south, that no one noticed, used several times more corexit, and older more toxic version. No one is finding any corexit there also. Its the same stuff thats in your toothpaste, shampoo and soap anyway. Makes PVC primer look like plutonium.

Much safer than the Indonesian toxic farm raised-antibiotic filled shrimp.

Redwood
03-20-2011, 07:09 PM
Yep....
Your right Ballvalve....
4.9 million barrels of spilled oil disappeared the instant the cap went on....

Can I interest you in my oceanfront property in Montana?

ballvalve
03-20-2011, 07:16 PM
The gulf has had a few million gallons a day in seeps for millions of years, and its all natural, and naturally processed.

Corexit, or shampoo, broke up the already LIGHT oil [bacteria doesnt like the asphaltic oils as much] stopped the clumping, and gave a huge surface area for the bugs to feast on.

4.9 million gallons in the gulf is about one teaspoon in lake Tahoe.

BP did a great job, much better and faster than the Japanese dolts.

BP is paying now for the perception of damage, like your posts that scare people into not eating the food. And the locals do not want the BP feed trough to go away.

The scientists trying hard to impeach BP are rather coming away impressed.

Redwood
03-21-2011, 09:14 AM
The gulf has had a few million gallons a day in seeps for millions of years, and its all natural, and naturally processed.

Corexit, or shampoo, broke up the already LIGHT oil [bacteria doesnt like the asphaltic oils as much] stopped the clumping, and gave a huge surface area for the bugs to feast on.

4.9 million gallons in the gulf is about one teaspoon in lake Tahoe.

BP did a great job, much better and faster than the Japanese dolts.

BP is paying now for the perception of damage, like your posts that scare people into not eating the food. And the locals do not want the BP feed trough to go away.

The scientists trying hard to impeach BP are rather coming away impressed.

FYI... A barrel of oil is 42 US Gallons....
So we are talking about 205.9 million gallons of oil with another 1.6 million gallons of Corexit...
Consider that 1 gallon of used motor oil can foul the taste of 1,000,000 gallons of fresh water you tell me the extent of the environmental damage...

Nah on second though you've obviously got your head in the sand, I don't need your opinion to try to sway the obvious IMHO...
There is no way that all that oil disappeared!
It's laying on the bottom unseen except when a fishing boat pulls up tarballs along with its catch....

November 24, 2010 NOAA re-closed a 4,200 square miles area to shrimping. A Florida TV station sent frozen Gulf shrimp to be tested for petroleum by-products after recent reports showed scientists disagreed on whether it is safe to eat after the oil spill. A private lab found levels of Anthracene, a toxic hydrocarbon and a by-product of petroleum, at twice the levels the FDA finds acceptable.

January 2011, an oil spill commissioner reported that tar balls continue to wash up, oil sheen trails are seen in the wake of fishing boats, wetlands marsh grass remains fouled and dying, and that crude oil lies offshore in deep water and in fine silts and sands onshore.

Yep, It has certainly disappeared....

ballvalve
03-21-2011, 11:34 AM
Crude oil, arsenic, cyanide, uranium, radon, silica dust, smoke are all natural products. Nature manages them. Drain oil is not.

Drain oil has been filled with toxic additives that have been burned, beaten and heated and molecularly changed into a fairly toxic brew.

Although even drain oil has its bacteria that render it safe in the dirt after a few years.

You probably injest more toxins changing your engine oil and wiping pipe dope on a thread, than eating my 25 pounds of delicious natural oil scented shrimp.

And have a cigar or cigarette while doing it. The plumbers around here look like crystal meth is their flavor of cigarette, and junk food is their substanence. A bag of fresh shrimp would be a tonic to them, even if dipped in Corexit with mayo.

Redwood
03-23-2011, 10:06 AM
Oh Damn The Oil Eating Microbes All Puked....

Oil Eating Microbes Regurgitate BP Oil Spill Into The Gulf (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110322/ts_yblog_thelookout/officials-remain-baffled-over-source-of-oil-slick-as-louisiana-coastline-is-oiled-again)

http://l.yimg.com/lk/api/res/1.2/CvQRMmmvaXPkAwsZFtQdgg--/YXBwaWQ9eW1lZGlhO2g9NDA2O3c9NjEw/http://mit.zenfs.com/102/2011/03/MG_0837.jpg

ballvalve
03-23-2011, 11:30 PM
If you bothered to read your own post, you would see that this vomit came down the Miss. river.

This river is a industrial sewer, and likely some Cajun dirtbag that CHARGES to collect drain oil got drunk one late night and decided to clear out his holding tanks.

Took his chevy to the Levy.....

OR a natural seep decided to feed the gulf its natural and historic legacy.

JOBS for the locals! And Why not let the Brits pay for them? They make a fortune from our oil. Its a lie, but lets give them the blame.

Perhaps it was Ian creating socialist type jobs for the area poor.

Redwood
03-24-2011, 07:23 AM
If you bothered to read your own post, you would see that this vomit came down the Miss. river.

This river is a industrial sewer, and likely some Cajun dirtbag that CHARGES to collect drain oil got drunk one late night and decided to clear out his holding tanks.

Took his chevy to the Levy.....

OR a natural seep decided to feed the gulf its natural and historic legacy.

JOBS for the locals! And Why not let the Brits pay for them? They make a fortune from our oil. Its a lie, but lets give them the blame.

Perhaps it was Ian creating socialist type jobs for the area poor.

It turns out it didn't come floating down the river....
Gotta love this one...
The oil producers self report their oil spills....
Yesterday, days after an oil slick was first seen near southern Louisiana's Grand Isle, Houston-based Anglo-Suisse Offshore Partners accepted responsibility for what seems like a minor oil spill.
They had reported that they spilled 5 gallons! LOL

http://ecocentric.blogs.time.com/2011/03/23/a-new-oil-spill-in-the-gulf-of-mexico%E2%80%94and-insight-into-the-causes-of-the-old-spill/

Gotta love how that works.... If you get caught you pay....

ballvalve
03-24-2011, 06:53 PM
Anglo-Suisse. Is that the Brits and the "neutral" country that lives on the Jewish blood money from WW2? Lets give them a few billion dollar fine and get some repayment for our work in their pathetic machinations in 1939.

5 gallons of oil and 5 pounds of Jewish gold fillings in the Swiss vaults. Add a few dozen zeros to that and we'll get near the truth.

Cookie
03-29-2011, 10:56 AM
I wish they would pass our a report on what they saw, it could save me money on Imaging done at the hospital, it might be cheaper...


Tue Mar 29, 8:50 am ET
WASHINGTON (AFP) – Full-body scanners used to secure airports, about 1,000 of which will be deployed across the United States by year's end, do not pose health risks, a study released has found.

The University of California study appearing in the "Archives of Internal Medicine" found that a traveler would have to go through a body scanner 50 times to receive the same amount of radiation as from a dental X-ray.

The researchers also said a lung X-ray was equivalent to 1,000 trips through an airport scanner, while a mammogram delivers as much radiation as passing through such a scanner 4,000 times.

The study focused on x-ray machines dubbed "backscatter" which use low-dose x-rays, similar to those used in medical imaging. So far there are some 486 full-body scanners in place in 78 US airports.

"The radiation doses emitted by the scans are extremely small; the scans deliver an amount of radiation equivalent to 3 to 9 minutes of the radiation received through normal daily living," the authors wrote.

And "since flying itself increases exposure to ionizing radiation, the scan will contribute less than one percent of the dose a flyer will receive from exposure to cosmic rays at elevated altitudes," they added.

"The estimation of cancer risks associated with these scans is difficult, but using the only available models, the risk would be extremely small, even among frequent flyers. We conclude that there is no significant threat of radiation from the scans," they wrote.

Advanced imaging technology X-ray scanners currently in use at airports around the United States sparked an uproar among travelers because they produce a graphic image of a person's naked body, ********* and all.

Others have worried the scans might be unsafe.

Cookie
04-01-2011, 05:36 PM
Need a good paying Job?



The mother of one of the atomic "samurai" working to bring Japan's stricken nuclear plant under control has said her son and his colleagues expect to die as a result of their efforts. Meanwhile, there are reports that additional workers are being offered big money to dash into the radiation-drenched heart of the Fukushima Daiichi plant, perform a job, then withdraw.

In a phone interview with Fox News, the tearful mother of a 32-year-old worker said: "My son and his colleagues have discussed it at length and they have committed themselves to die if necessary to save the nation."

"He told me they have accepted they will all probably die from radiation sickness in the short term or cancer in the long term," the woman added.

"They know it is impossible for them not to have been exposed to lethal doses of radiation."

The woman did not give her name, because she said the workers had been asked by management not to speak publicly about their ordeal, in order to minimize panic.

There are also indications that the workers aren't being provided with some crucial safety equipment. Japan's interior minister said that not all of the workers were given lead sheeting to protect themselves from the floor--which may be contaminated by radiation--while sleeping.

"My son has been sleeping on a desk because he is afraid to lie on the floor. But they say high radioactivity is everywhere and I think this will not save him," said the mother.

In another bleak sign, there are reports of additional workers being offered up to $5,000 a day to act as "jumpers"--so called because they "jump" into highly radioactive areas to quickly perform a task before fleeing with minimal exposure. But even at those rates, many candidates are turning the work down, Reuters reports.

"My company offered me 200,000 yen ($2,500) per day," one subcontractor in his 30s told a reporter."Ordinarily I'd consider that a dream job, but my wife was in tears and stopped me, so I declined."

And Ryuta Fujita, 27, told the Tokyo Shimbun newspaper he was offered $5,000 to go into Reactor 2, but likewise declined.

"I hear that guys older than 50 are being hired at high pay," Fujita said. "But I'm still young, and radiation scares me. I don't want to work in a nuclear plant again."

Last week two workers in Reactor 3 were taken to hospital after their feet were exposed to 170-180 millisieverts of radiation. The average dose for a worker at a nuclear plant is 50 millisieverts over 5 years.

Because so few workers want to venture into the plant, it's proving hard for TEPCO, that company that runs it, to assess whether efforts to cool the fuel rods are working, or even to fully diagnose the problems.

Robots are usually used for this type of work, but Fukushima's interior is so filled with debris that it's difficult for robots to operate there.

(A young boy is screened for radiation contamination before entering an evacuation center in Fukushima, Japan, April 1, 2011.: Wally Santana/AP)

Cookie
04-02-2011, 02:51 PM
By Laura Zuckerman Laura Zuckerman – Sat Apr 2, 11:17 am ET

SALMON, Idaho (Reuters) – While the nuclear crisis in Japan unfolds a continent away, Mormon-dominated communities in the western United States say the disaster overseas is bringing close to home a lesson about preparing for the worst.

Emergency planning and the long-term storage of food, water and medical supplies are central practices by the 14 million worldwide members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The tradition stems from doctrine - "If ye are prepared ye shall not fear" - established by Joseph Smith when he founded the church in 1830 in upstate New York. It also stems from the persecution that drove his early followers from the Midwest to the Rocky Mountains in 1847.

Present-day Mormons, concentrated in the United States in Utah, California and Idaho, say preparedness and self-reliance are a way of life and not signs of survivalist leanings or knee-jerk responses to disasters.

"It's not a sudden, spectacular program," said Craig Rasmussen, spokesman for the church in Idaho, second only to Utah for the highest percentage of Mormons.

Worries about radiation from Japan's crippled nuclear plants have spurred sales in the West of potassium iodide to block absorption of cancer-causing radioactive iodine even though U.S. officials say minor amounts detected in the air, rainwater or milk in 15 states pose no health risks.

At a time of renewed interest in how to cope with calamity in a region where Mormonism is the prevailing religious, cultural and social influence, companies selling dehydrated, freeze-dried or canned foods in bulk are reporting rising sales.

Don Pectol, vice president with Emergency Essentials Inc., a retail and online emergency supply chain based near Salt Lake City, said top sellers are powdered milk, water purifiers and meat processed to extend shelf life.

'NORMAL BEHAVIOR'

Pectol said the spike came after harmless levels of radiation were detected in states like Utah, Idaho and Arizona and the upsurge is similar to one that happened when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans in 2005.

Another online seller of stored food said on its website that dried dairy products and powered eggs were temporarily unavailable.

University of Colorado sociologist Kathleen Tierney, head of a national institute that tracks society's reactions to disasters, said potential nuclear threats place people on heightened alert.

She said fears lessen with measures like stocking up on food or remedies because a sense of control replaces the feeling of helplessness.

"It's normal behavior during uncertainty," said Tierney, director of the Natural Hazards Center in Boulder, Colorado.

Mormon Mark Oliverson, a dentist and father of three in the remote mountain town of Salmon in central Idaho, said he and his wife routinely add and rotate items in the family's year-long supply of food. The couple also attends the church's workshops on emergency planning, food storage and other practices that make up so-called provident living.

"It puts you in a position to take care of yourself and provide for your family through hard times - and that puts you in a good position to help others," he said.

Church leaders say that principle allows it to respond to emergencies worldwide.

In the aftermath of the March 11 earthquake and tsunami, Mormon missionaries working in areas near Japan's stricken nuclear reactors were moved to safety.

Officials said congregations in Japan have since set up an emergency response committee to organize volunteers distributing food, water, fuel and blankets.

The hazard center's Tierney said models like that confirm studies that show "we are better people in disasters than in day-to-day situations."

Eric Erickson, head of a group of Mormon congregations in the eastern Idaho community of Rexburg, where 90 percent of 24,000 residents are church members, said the crisis in Japan would likely prompt local leaders to fine-tune emergency plans and communications systems.

"Katrina provided us the opportunity to re-look at things and revisit those principles; this will be another," he said.

Redwood
04-15-2011, 10:58 PM
Interesting article about hypersaturated brines, but she did not determine the oil was from BP.

The gulf is a region of massive natural and now unnatural seeps, and it is well equipped to dispense of either type. The disperants kept it out of the marsh [and opening the gates of the Mississippi] and broke it up into smaller particles that allowed the bacteria to feed happily.

Corexit seems to be well proven even by the enviro's as better than crude oil, and without any DNA changing effects on life, or less than oil.

Not to say we should not take BP's billions for their f-up, or continue to study and make better dispersants.

New Yorker magazine. Latest one I think. The author started out as a mission to impeach BP, but learned that they did a good job after all the hype.

If we do not build more nuclear, better start drilling like wild today in the gulf.


Well it's good to know that you took the bait on the disappearing oil...

BP plotted to influence what scientists say about oil spill’s impact, internal emails reveal

With the first anniversary of the onset of the BP oil spill coming up next week, spill-weary Gulf natives have a fresh reminder of how the oil giant has devoted itself to studiously downplaying the damage of the disaster: A recently leaked body of internal company correspondence shows senior BP brass trying to spin scientific research produced by company-paid researchers in order to minimize the scale of the spill's destruction in the public mind.
The news doesn't exactly come as a shock to many in the Gulf region. After all, when the Mobile Press-Register first reported last summer that BP was contracting to hire a battery of coastal scientists, many theorized that some such initiative was afoot. And now the internal BP emails obtained by Greenpeace through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) appear to bear such worries out.
As The Guardian reports today, BP officials sought to tailor the findings of company-funded research. Last May, BP announced that it was ponying up $500 million to fund "an open research program studying the impact of the Deepwater Horizon incident." That mega-project is now known as the Gulf of Mexico Research Institute (GRI). And to judge by the emails released via Greenpeace, company leaders were deeply concerned with how to spin to the group's findings given they footed its research bills.
"Can we 'direct' GRI funding to a specific study (as we now see the governor's offices trying to do)," BP environmental official Russell Putt asked in a June 2010 email. "What influence do we have over the vessels/equipment driving the studies vs the questions?"
Another email written by a BP environmental officer, Karen Ragoonanan-Jalim, indicates that company officials met in Houma, Louisiana, to discuss how they might "steer the research" to best serve the oil company's interests, writing that officials discussed how "BP can influence this long-term research programme" to "undertake the studies we believe will be useful."
The emails also reveal dissension among U.S. government leaders over the spill, specifically over the White House's controversial, and ultimately disproved, claims that the "vast majority" of the spilled oil had vanished from the Gulf.
Reports the Guardian's Suzanne Goldenberg:
The White House clashed with officials from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) last summer when drafting the administration's account of what has happened to the spilled oil.
On 4 August, Jane Lubchenco, the NOAA administrator, demanded that the White House issue a correction after it claimed that the "vast majority" of BP oil was gone from the Gulf.
A few days earlier, Lisa Jackson, the head of the EPA, and her deputy, Bob Perciasepe, had also objected to the White House estimates of the amount of oil dispersed in the gulf. "These calculations are extremely rough estimates yet when they are put into the press, which we want to happen, they will take on a life of their own," Perciasepe wrote.
It should be noted that no evidence has yet surfaced to suggest that BP succeeded in compromising the integrity of the research carried out by any of the scientists working with the GCI.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110415/ts_yblog_thelookout/bp-plotted-to-influence-what-scientists-say-about-oil-spills-impact-internal-emails-reveal

Tom Sawyer
04-16-2011, 05:47 AM
We don't have to worry about what the EPA has to say anymore. The tea party wants to get rid of them too.

Cookie
04-16-2011, 10:01 AM
This all should be a wake-up call...

Fri Apr 15, 11:16 pm ET
TOKYO (AFP) – A strong earthquake of magnitude 5.8 hit central Japan on Saturday morning, according to the US Geological Survey.

The quake, which shook buildings in Tokyo, struck at 11:19 am (0219 GMT), 83 kilometres (52 miles) north of the capital and at a depth of 20 kilometres, the USGS said.

Operator Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO) said the tremor did not disrupt the emergency crews who are working around the clock to cool crippled reactors at a nuclear plant hit by a devastating earthquake and tsunami last month.

That earthquake -- the biggest ever recorded in Japan -- struck on March 11, triggering a huge tsunami and leaving 13,591 people dead, with another 14,497 still unaccounted for.

Tens of thousands of people lost their homes, while many others were forced to evacuate after a series of explosions at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant sent radiation spewing into the air.

The radiation leaks have resulted in bans on produce from the affected area and hurt the fishing and farming industries because of public fears over radioactivity in food.

On Friday, Japan's government ordered TEPCO to offer payouts to tens of thousands of people made homeless by the ongoing crisis.

The total cost from collapsed or damaged houses, factories and infrastructure such as roads and bridges is estimated to reach 16-25 trillion yen over the next three fiscal years, according to the Cabinet Office.

There were no immediate reports of any damage or casualties from Saturday's quake, which the Japan Meteorological Agency said had a magnitude of 5.9 and struck at a depth of 70 kilometres underground.

jimbo
04-16-2011, 11:28 AM
I think we could all chip in and buy Ian a one way ticket to Japan to do some cleanup work at the plants!

Cookie
04-16-2011, 03:26 PM
One thing, at least I haven't heard much about is disease. Which can be easily transported.

Cookie
04-16-2011, 03:56 PM
This might not be a hot idea:
yet...

http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/blog/26066/scientists+in+maine--where+else--produce+golf+balls+from+lobster+shells/

Redwood
04-16-2011, 08:29 PM
I think we could all chip in and buy Ian a one way ticket to Japan to do some cleanup work at the plants!

Where Do I Send My Donation?

Ian Gills
04-16-2011, 08:37 PM
With the equipment and the entitlements you get as a US serviceman, it wouldn't take much persuading.

You never see a poor US veteran.

It's all there. And we can thank the Government for it.

Just imagine a country where every citizen got the same benefits as US veterans.

http://www.vba.va.gov/pubs/forms/VBA-21-0501-ARE.pdf

Kinda makes you want to sign up, doesn't it? I'm sure a few of the rest of us would like some help with home loans and education grants too.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4061/5168797086_b7e21d3da9.jpg

Cookie
04-16-2011, 09:11 PM
If you can find any WW2 Vets, why don't you ask them what they get per month right now? Especially, those who are collecting a disablility pay from being injured overseas. My poor dad, was getting , ( better sit down Ian) $55.00 a month for having the privledge of getting blown-up, losing his hearing for life, and like he would say, " and then some." I guess, I am lucky I was created. He hardly made a killing from being in the service; and, so far as using the freebies, such as the GI bill of rights for housing, he never used it. He never bought a house. You never saw a poor veteran? Ha. Like I was told from age 13 from teachers, " put yer glasses on."

Ian Gills
04-17-2011, 05:22 AM
I'm just saying that America looks after its vets.

They all seem to have great health care (provided by the Feds) and most of the retired ones I see are either riding around on large motorbikes or driving around in big trucks.

The young ones go to great universities after leaving.

America really puts its hand in its pockets for its retired servicemen. No expense is spared.

You should all be proud of this. It's the right thing to do.

But when it comes to ordinary people, some start questioning the role of the Government to provide similar services.

Why?

So what is good for the goose, isn't good for the gander in this country.

Why are Government entitlements OK for vets but not for retired people of other trades?

And why don't vets have to look after themselves like the rest of us?

In England you get special benefits if you are injured in active combat.

In America, all you have to do is serve and then you're entitled. It appears you do not even have to go to war to get the vets benefits here, let alone be injured.

But a poor retired plumber or teacher is on his/her own.

jimbo
04-17-2011, 05:59 AM
With the equipment and the entitlements you get as a US serviceman, it wouldn't take much persuading.

You never see a poor US veteran.

It's all there. And we can thank the Government for it.

Just imagine a country where every citizen got the same benefits as US veterans.

http://www.vba.va.gov/pubs/forms/VBA-21-0501-ARE.pdf

Kinda makes you want to sign up, doesn't it? I'm sure a few of the rest of us would like some help with home loans and education grants too.



If you think the VA is so wonderful, I do encourage you to sign up. The vast majority of the millions and millions of Americans who have served in the Armed Forces get zilch bubkis from the VA. The GI bill....you pay into that while you are on active duty. If you get shot up, or agent oranged, or some strange bug in Iraq, MOST former servicement DIE before they finally get the VA to recognize their illness as service-related. If you are lucky enough to work your way up the ranks, and stay for 20+ years, you do earn a pension. I can tell you that the pension after 22½ years service is 30 % of what you were making at the time you retire. Nice to have but not exactly a princely sum. The medical insurance ( TRICARE) is nice, and the price is very reasonable, but under constant pressure from congress to increase the annual fee and the copays and dedictibles. All of this is fair payment in return for sucking freon, amine, and carbon monoxide for 20 years,.

Ian Gills
04-17-2011, 06:06 AM
Just like in England then. Where to get a "war pension" (which can run to $2400 a month) vets often have to go to court to prove their injuries were service-related.
Which is tricky when you are exposed to chemical weapons.

I wonder why servicemen and women do not speak out more? Unlike in England, they (and their families) are very well organised politically in the US.

Cookie
04-17-2011, 08:15 AM
I know a Vet, who was sprayed with Agent Orange, his 2 daughters was born without ear drums. The "special" allowances made wasn't that great. It paid for the School for the deaf for his girls.

ballvalve
04-17-2011, 12:25 PM
Those gentleman LIVE on their bikes. They winter over in central Nevada in rented 5th wheels and 1962 mobile homes.

Ian Gills
04-17-2011, 04:05 PM
So, we're back to square one.

If America doesn't even look after its vets, just who does it look out for?

Not the poor. Not the sick. Not the elderly.

Nada.

Less a country. More of a "place". Certainly no longer fit to be part of the Kingdom.

Cookie
04-17-2011, 04:09 PM
I wish I would had copied what I read the other day about where out tax dollars goes to, but, one of them was national defense. That was the second one. Since, I am brain damaged, I can't remember the first, lol. Another was foreign aide. I can't remember the percentage on that either, but, this one wasn't high up, but not the last either. If I can find it, I will post the chart for you, Ian.

ballvalve
04-18-2011, 09:21 AM
So, we're back to square one.

If America doesn't even look after its vets, just who does it look out for?

Not the poor. Not the sick. Not the elderly.

Nada.

Less a country. More of a "place". Certainly no longer fit to be part of the Kingdom


That wasnt really a cut. They like that life. The UK will never have a Nevada to winter over in, nor enough lonely roads, as in Kansas, to truly feel the wind of freedom in your face.

If they get sick, a VA hospital is always near.

Just try and pull over on a BLM road in the UK and target practice with your array of guns. Thats what they joined up to protect. And to make sure we never have a KINGdom again.

Stop in here- 'Mina, Nevada' for a real taste of another world.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1I7DKUS_en&biw=1106&bih=585&site=search&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=photos+of+mina+nevada&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

http://www.city-data.com/city/Mina-Nevada.html

This is the best one on Mina:

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/38121

Now Ian, if you really take a look at these photos, and actually get there one day, you will start to understand the absolutely bizzare nature of the American west.

You might also want to read Henry Millers ' The air conditioned nightmare' - one of the last great Americans.

Neanderthal Man
06-02-2011, 09:59 PM
It is a good point. The "Brilliant" Japanese that make those cars that most ignorant Americans bow down to like a golden goddess have built nuclear plants right on the fault line.

AND they forgot to think about a little wave knocking out the auxiliary power.

AND they forgot to simply put the aux power on the roof of the building.

AND they forgot to build a huge GRAVITY feed cooling tank for ultimate back-up.

Guess they were too busy making cars and toilets to export for PROFIT instead of upgrading their nuclear.

Wanna know where they should have gotten their nuclear plants? They should have bought 50 of the American aircraft carrier nuclear plants and mounted them on some surplus toyota springs. Those little beauties can sway until they are almost upside down and jump around dodging floating Corolla's.

And Ian, our bad gas lines look pretty harmless next to these poorly designed plants.

Finally, whatever help we give needs to be repaid on a time and material basis. From auto export profits.

This is NOT Haiti!

But it looks like Japanese/Haitian plumbers designed the plants coolant system......

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?34301-Plumbing-in-Japan-is-bizzare-if-not-interesting!

Bro I can't believe the stuff you are pretending to know.
Why are you pretending tp be an engineer?
We all watched you get expelled from the college.

ballvalve
06-03-2011, 10:32 AM
If you cro-mags could read, and think outside of your next skunk dinner, you would know not to put your backup power in front of the wave.

Had they built the plant in a cave up in the mountains, on springs, japan would just have water to clean up.

Dunbar Plumbing
06-03-2011, 09:56 PM
Brits are dying of a massive bacteria strain and green tea is banned from being shipped in Japan thanks to radiation.


Who was it that said this nuclear accident wasn't a big deal? It's the worst in history and it's STILL leaking massive amounts of radiation all over. But it's one big secret.

Tom Sawyer
06-04-2011, 09:02 AM
You worry too much Steve. Look on the bright side, maybe the next generation will mutate into Xmen

Ian Gills
06-04-2011, 03:18 PM
Is your aircraft carrier still there or did it sneak away before the job was done?

ballvalve
06-05-2011, 10:53 AM
DUNBAR:

Brits are dying of a massive bacteria strain and green tea is banned from being shipped in Japan thanks to radiation.

Who was it that said this nuclear accident wasn't a big deal? It's the worst in history and it's STILL leaking massive amounts of radiation all over. But it's one big secret.

Better hope it does not spread to China - you might have to buy Ridgid wrenches again. The Harbor freight virus.

ballvalve
06-05-2011, 10:58 AM
Is your aircraft carrier still there or did it sneak away before the job was done?

Its on its way to England for a secret mission to make it our next state.

- For past crimes against humanity
- To teach us about health care and building cute villages
- For us to teach them how to speak an intelligible language
- For us to teach them to build a motorcycle that doesnt leak oil
- For Them to show us how to stay out of wars until the last possible minute

Hillary will be the temporary queen. Donald Rumsfied will be King.

And by the way Fukushima DID MELT DOWN so maybe we should change the thread title...

The job IS done, japan just needs a few billion yards of concrete to cover it all up with. I think a Brit invented the best variety, so lets allow them to donate it.

Redwood
06-05-2011, 12:11 PM
By the way Fukushima DID MELT DOWN so maybe we should change the thread title...

Now comes the question...

Over there we can't exactly call it "China Syndrome" so if they can't get the meltdown under control...

Do we call it "USA Syndrome?"

Actually if you go to the opposite side of the earth it should land in the South Atlantic off the Brazil Uruguay border...;)

http://www.antipodr.com/?addr=futaba%2C+japan&x=172&y=27

Ian Gills
06-05-2011, 05:51 PM
For us to teach them how to speak an intelligible language

Burglarized is not a word.

It is quite amazing what an average person can forget on a boat.

They certainly weren't our brightest and best.

But they did like God more than most.

ballvalve
06-05-2011, 06:28 PM
But they did like God more than most

Considering the quality of healthcare at jamestown, and the tools of warfare, it was an essential dream. The Inquisition helped a bit too. Made a lot of people taller.

Terry
07-10-2011, 06:33 AM
13493

Millions of tons of debris that washed into the ocean during Japan's catastrophic earthquake and tsunami in March — everything from furniture to roofs to pieces of cars — are moving steadily toward the West Coast and raising concerns about a potential environmental headache.

Well.....there goes our clean beaches.

Tom Sawyer
07-10-2011, 07:13 AM
I wonder if a good rice cooker will wash up? I could use a good rice cooker.

Ian Gills
07-10-2011, 08:58 AM
Will Terry start doing a line of second hand Toto?

ballvalve
07-10-2011, 02:44 PM
My toto dont float, but it'll be a blast beachcombing for years! Watch for yen inside sealed glass jars from the freezers.