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Ian Gills
02-22-2011, 04:43 PM
At least we should hope it is.

Banning collective bargaining in the country which claims to be the shining star of democracy wouldn't be right.

Surely we should salute those American public sector workers who are protesting to maintain their democractic rights?

jimbo
02-22-2011, 07:36 PM
Well, big labor has certainly been a success in Detroit. Car jobs gone. City broke. Average selling price of a HOUSE in Detroit today : $7,500
City just announced that it will close HALF of the city schools, with corresponding layoffs. The unions have really done wonders for Detroit!

ballvalve
02-24-2011, 10:42 AM
And you need a BIG gun to survive there.

The houses are cheap because all their pipes and radiators and wires are on a boat to China.

Collective bargaining in China? That is when the collective farm workers bid DOWN against each other in order to get a factory job for .26 cents a day with bad rice.

Probably busting up American cell phones and game boards to make kids lead filled jewelry for the dollar store on a hibachi.

Look what the Japanese on their little postage stamp island did to us in the 40's. Imagine what happens when the Chinese start looking for a little real-estate.

Ian Gills
02-24-2011, 12:31 PM
America could afford high wages if the taxpayers got off their lazy behinds and paid for some decent education for the kids.

Bad school means bad jobs. Which means bad cars.

I still think the unions are going to win this one. Let's hope they do.

You can always blame the other countries and, of course, Reagan who opened up to them.

But the root cause of America's economic problems are home-grown.

If gas and carbon energy were taxed; schools Federally funded and healthcare universally provided this country could compete.

In services and green jobs. Leave the low value stuff to the Chinese.

I know some of you are rather slow so I will spell it out:

More private sector jobs will involve more taxes, more regulation and a Bigger Government.

Take it or leave it.

And don't be a sucker to the rich who argue that taxes kill American jobs. Just where are these rich Americans and their families going to go? China? I don't think so.

It's a simple matter of forgetting what your mummy and daddy taught you. That advice was good for another age. But no more...

jimbo
02-24-2011, 04:45 PM
If you think the green revolution will create lot of jobs, think again. All the municipalities and builders who are doing solar projects are finding out they have to buy the actual solar panels in China, because the cost too much here.!~

My attitude about all this crap....quote from Bob Dylan, sort of have to be there to feel the full meaning......" I lost all my picnic spirt...gonna stay home...have a picnic in the bathroom"!!!

Ian Gills
02-25-2011, 02:00 PM
Solar?

I'm talking about completely new sources like wind turbines or safer nuclear. And making everything we use more efficient from electric cars to fuel efficient appliances to LED lighting that actually works. California was on to something and then it blew it by doing an about turn.

America's strength is innovation. Quit trying to make good quality, low value stuff. Who cares if an American-made ball valve lasts a few years longer than a Chinese one? Or every toilet that comes out of the box is in perfect condition.

Leave the cheap jobs to the cheap people and focus on something you might actually be good at if you can get the kids here to good schools.

And do more services. Like plumbing.

It looks like you guys have forgotten how to make jobs. You just moan about taxes and big Government.

Which all sounds very similar to what you were complaining about 300 years ago.

Get over it. The English have.

Big Government is here to stay and you need it to nudge you in the right direction.

ballvalve
02-25-2011, 02:56 PM
Wisconsin is setting the pace and gave the unions a wake up call! Cheers!

Ian Gills
02-25-2011, 04:05 PM
What is wrong with a few workers getting together to propose decent wages and more productive work practices?

jimbo
02-25-2011, 07:20 PM
What is wrong with a few workers getting together to propose....more productive work practices?
That would be fine! And the last time a UNION did that.......well, a union has NEVER done that!

ballvalve
02-26-2011, 10:45 AM
They have always proposed more money and LESS work. Far less work. More holidays, and "work" when no work exists to be done.

Ian Gills
02-26-2011, 12:06 PM
What's wrong with ensuring a basic standard of living for workers?

Without unions there would still be child labor and no pension system.

Weak unions might be one reason America is in the mess it is now with no paid maternity leave for its women. Or the way most firms are able to fire their workers without any notice and for any reason.

That's what happens when employers walk over their workers and individuals are not empowered to negotiate with them.

The only bad thing unions do for this country is prevent the burying of utility lines.

Which they seem to be pretty good at doing judging by the tangled mess where I live.

ballvalve
02-27-2011, 10:58 AM
The union would love the boondoggle of burying the lines. However, your plan would drain the earth of its copper and add 20% to supposed global warming due to the vast use of resources and cooling systems needed.

Also, if you ever worked a excavator in the streets of a city, you would shiver at the prospect of wiring up a large, old town.

I rather like the idea of Eastern Europe which pumps steam for miles to heat blocks of flats from high efficiency plants that often use waste heat from electric generation to re-warm the water. New York still has many such pipes waiting to blow in the streets.

Ian Gills
02-27-2011, 05:58 PM
The union would love the boondoggle of burying the lines. However, your plan would drain the earth of its copper and add 20% to supposed global warming due to the vast use of resources and cooling systems needed.

Also, if you ever worked a excavator in the streets of a city, you would shiver at the prospect of wiring up a large, old town.

Europe did this when I was a kid in areas much larger and enclosed than you have here.

So if you don't know how, ask the British.

Cookie
02-27-2011, 07:52 PM
I remember back when I worked doing ironworking, welding, (ornamental) during college and joined the union, everyone was split either way. Some complained about the dues, which I could understand but, it helped us get better pay and working conditions. I remember when I was little and my dad belonged to the Teamsters saying, " you never cross a picket line, it is putting food on our table" and, to this day I won't and instructed my kids never to either. They may not be perfect, some might have too much power, but without unions, you are at the mercy of the owners.

ballvalve
02-28-2011, 10:31 AM
Europe did this when I was a kid in areas much larger and enclosed than you have here.

So if you don't know how, ask the British.

Looks like the Brits can get some work in Brazil after 17 people got barbequed by a power line:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/01/3151334.htm

Ian Gills
02-28-2011, 10:56 AM
Utility lines fall all the time where I live in the US.

They just string 'em back up again and ignore all the damage caused in the interim (by loss of power, cable, phone etc. not to mention cars hitting them).

People are just too cheap in America to do the job properly.

Which would consist of burying utility lines in urban and sub-urban areas.

LOTW
02-28-2011, 12:19 PM
I agree with Ian. To a point. Unions of private sector employees should be permitted to bargain and negotiate all what they want with management. But if they strike, call in sick, or damage property they should be subject to immediate firing and management should get to immediately hire permanent replacements. If the union is right and management will not be able to hire someone who is cheaper, more productive, etc. management will soon learn its lesson and either go out of business or rehire union workers. But if the union is wrong and management can hire better, cheaper, faster nonunion help, why shouldn't it be allowed to do so if the union has gone on strike and quit working?

Everyone needs to realize that you are only worth what it costs to replace you.

Re: public sector unions, everything that I have read indicates that public unions receive unrealistic benefits, so some reasonable and affordable cap on the same appears necessary.

Part of my "Ianistic" attitude towards unions is that I have found much of management, especially public management, to be as incompetent, bueracratic, and corrupt as unions.

And if a teacher goes on strike during the school year he/she should immediately lose their license to teach and should have their names placed on a child abuse registry..

Ian Gills
02-28-2011, 03:29 PM
Everyone needs to realize that you are only worth what it costs to replace you.

So that's the American dream?

In England, human beings are regarded to be more than just "animals".

We value life, society, security and the dignity a job brings.

One wonders what the churches here are teaching people.

One thing is for sure. Thomas Jefferson's opening to the Declaration of Independence has not been honored. Since clearly "All men are not created equal".

Men were not created equal then, and they are not now.

At least not in America.

For example, try being born to a mom with no health insurance and see how "equal" you feel compared to the guy in the crib next to you whose mom paid his dues.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/All_men_are_created_equal.JPG/800px-All_men_are_created_equal.JPG

jimbo
02-28-2011, 07:35 PM
Check out Frederick Jackon Turner ( Frontier Thesis ) and Manifest Destiny.

Cookie
02-28-2011, 07:42 PM
You could also, compare it to whose mom's had them aborted Ian. Look at China, they select their sex and what happens to the unwanted one? Nothing is ever perfect, and words are just words, actions are what count. Whatever is worth having is worth fighting for, working for, and perfecting. Those words on the piece of paper is just the start it unfortunately, doesn't write it in granite like you think. Solutions come about after many trials and tribulations. I have worked with alot of different kinds of kids. Kids you wouldn't want to meet, you wouldn't love everything they do, and nothing I could do could change it. Some of the parents gave up, some preached and lectured to them, some just stood by not knowing what to do, and in all, time was the answer. In time they went one way or the other. It really isn't much different than the politics in a county, striving to fix what is wrong. If only, every person did their 2 cents worth to make it a better place to live, to leave the world just alittle bit better than when born into it, changes would happen, you would readily, see changes. But, their are too many people whom are afraid to get involved for whatever, reason. So, they stand by until, it affects their life, or their loved ones. I find the answer is so simple and yet, it is one of the most complicated things. It is to care.

Ian Gills
02-28-2011, 07:57 PM
I agree it is caring what matters.

But it is also self-interest. We all need to realise that falling on bad luck from time-to-time is part of the human condition.

It is not "lazy" to need a little bit of help from the Government every now and again, whether it be chronic illness, job loss or a childhood deep in poverty.

It is not "bad" to help one's neighbor through higher taxes or Government help.

People can be free and they can be better off with a bigger Government.

Forget Reagan and stop blaming Government for your woes. He liked to scapegoat Government didn't he for the problems he could not solve?

You see Government is only trying to help.

Let it into your life.

Let it protect you. Let it nurture you. Let it grow.

You will all get your tax dollars back when it is your time to suffer. And most of us will suffer in the time we have here on this Earth.

In short, no man is an island. Americans are not isolated from one another, but are interconnected. And they need Government to do the connecting.

ianrtech
03-01-2011, 12:38 AM
unoins are a necessary evil! they are run to much like bussiness. more members more money and carp for the dues payer. fighting for illegals in the workforce? but they are needed. yes they spened to much money in polotics but nothing compaired to big bussiness! in the public sector they have got to much for retirement benifits. 6 figures? but gov never put the money in the plan to pay for it. but teachers still git paid crap but try to get rid of a bad one!

5 day work wk. over time. heath benifits. work place safety. not getting the ax becuase the new manager do not like you. or can get someone for nothing to do your job now.

:p

Ian Gills
03-01-2011, 07:19 AM
I agree with Ian.

Cookie
03-01-2011, 08:56 AM
I agree with Ian. Wait. Which one? :) Both.

Just to add that women in the workplace really needs the unions. We get taken advantage of, made to use mens restrooms, and get ******ly harassed at times by bosses. I have always made it a practice since I was ******ly harassed once to have a tape recorder in my pocket or even sometimes, I place it on the desk, when I am called up on something for whatever reason. It doesn't matter to me if my boss is a male or female, ****** harrassment can by either gender. The same for a man. Really. If they object to my small tape recording then we don't talk.

ballvalve
03-01-2011, 10:29 AM
One thing is for sure. Thomas Jefferson's opening to the Declaration of Independence has not been honored. Since clearly "All men are not created equal".

Men were not created equal then, and they are not now.

At least not in America.For example, try being born to a mom with no health insurance and see how "equal" you feel compared to the guy in the crib next to you whose mom paid his dues.

All men are created equal at birth, so TJ was correct. Its the pride and predjudices of demented adults that attack a childs potential from about age 5 onward that bring him down.

And women in America are not dropping kids in the street because the hospital was closed to them. But when the mom with state health care spends her income on cigarettes and crack cocaine, the kid doesnt get any donald duck comics read to him at night.

Read this post to see all the Socialist help programs in America that no one uses, and exist just to waste money on the union gov. workers:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/01/government-waste-numbers-report-identifies-dozens-duplicative-programs/

Cookie
03-01-2011, 12:09 PM
I was working at a Head Start years ago, and when I had started a little boy, age 5, came running up to me and threw his arms about my legs. He immediately bonded with me, and I guess it was because I had looked like someone who was once nice to him. His name was Louis. I called him, Little Louie. My youngest was his age at the time. That day he showed me his "new" shoes" which consisted of barely, having soles, and they flapped in the front. Next day, I came in with shoes, clothes, you name it. After enough of time had gone by, the bus driver who picked him up in the mornings, told me he was always hanging out of the window and no one was around with him. I did some work and found out his mom made her living walking the streets. Well, she didn't want him, but I did. So did my husband. After some time, we got to know her and she agreed to let us adopt him. Then, at the last moment she decided not to.

Ian Gills
03-01-2011, 12:44 PM
These poor mothers need help. Not the full weight of your American economic abuse.

Give them generous social payments.

Provide social worker visits.

Provide subsidized housing and utilities.

Else feel the wrath of their angry kids when they grow up.

The choice is yours.

Pay now. Or pay more later.

ianrtech
03-01-2011, 12:44 PM
it is not the uions that keep bad programs running. it is the heads of these programs and poloticans. the workers are needed its the upper managmet that needs to be downsized. in my county we have cloes to 40 school districes. they all give pink slips to the teachers. thou none of them have combined to get rid of the 6 figure supperatendance and there staff

LOTW
03-01-2011, 01:18 PM
Your proposal does nothing except provide a continuous incentive to remain poor, uninsured and pregnant. My vote is for community college scholarships geared towards vocational training. If you are able bodied, are offered one, and decline your benefits should be stopped in 30 days.

ianrtech
03-01-2011, 02:19 PM
not everyone is able to work.mental illness pysical diabilites ect. or run thier own business. yes if your able to work and provide for yourself you should. but big bussiness makes it next to ipposible. the coast of living has gone up much faster than wages. less money for schools. leave it to beaver usa is gone both mom and dad work. if their lucky one of there jobs has heath ins. go to work for wal mart and they tell you how to govt benifits? the working poor. while ceos get 9 diget pay? the free press is gone. its mostly cotrolled by big bussiness. avertizing$ law suits the pepole on their board is also on the board of the media. fox news is just a arm of the far far far right. they have divided by getting us to think only of whats best for me now! than what best for us all in the future!!! the rihgt to life cowd is all conserned about the baby tills its born then its on is own. maybe it can get a job to pay for perschool?

Ian Gills
03-01-2011, 05:57 PM
I agree with Ian. Why are Americans so distrustful of each other?

People want to work. They do not want to be poor. They want the dignity of earning their own living.

But they may also need a little bit of help from the Government from time-to-time.

Why does everyone in the United States think that everyone else is out to milk the system?

Cookie
03-01-2011, 07:50 PM
People are not so much distrustful of each here other, most are just ignorant to each other.

Like for instance, you talk about physical disabilities? Well, a few years back I had a Picc Line in my arm. Clearly visible since it was summer. For those who do not know what a picc line is, it is an IV that ran from my heart through the main vein in my neck to the outside of my arm. Throught the opening of the skin on the outside, dangles a very purty plastic tube so, a connection can be made to the pole which holds whatever, you need dripped. It is another way of making a person a vein. My husband had dropped me off at the door of the market and I was holding my arm to my side when, an older man, about 40 years older than me, slammed the door on my arm, knocking out the tube and blood was everywhere. I asked him, " why did you do that?" He said, " you didn't hold the door for me and I am old."

Today, I had to have the stitches and staples taken out, all 10.5 inches of them. Well, I had to cancel 2 appt recently to do this due to 1. A major snow storm 2. More recent an ice storm. This woman in the office has never much liked me, I cannot imagine why, since I am nice to her. But, today, here I sit to hear her tell me that she drives in any weather, yet, from the opposite direction of where the storms was at. I said to her, " you ever have an accident?" Of course she never did, and when I informed her of mine, she said, " well, you just got to get back up on that horse." I informed her, that even horses won't walk on ice. And, reminded her, that 5 diagnoses of cancer shows that horse is worn out but, I still get on that poor thing. Then, she had to see the incision and grabbed my head & hair in such a fashion I yelped and pushed her hand away, telling her it still feels like someone hit me in the back of my head with a baseball bat and to be gentle. She is just ignorant.

I work for a woman who wins prizes at being ignorant. She tells you, " I don't want to be nice." Yeah, I noticed...

Oh, Ian, hang around the USA and you will see, we are not distrustful as much as just ignorant. And, it is not the same as manners, like saying, thank you or please. The words are spoken through actions.

I did hear a couple of words today that did sting. The surgeon asked what the oncologist told me. So, I said, this and that. When I asked him, his opinion of the report, he said, " I don't care." You don't care? He said, " I don't care." He said, all he cared about was that it was not lymphoma. When I asked what it was though, he said, " I don't care."

So, there sat this pathetic little person with a really bad haircut having a really bad hairday, and no one cared. That my friend, is America.

And, to add the govn into the picture is like adding insult to injury.

I should add, that after a few moments while looking at this man who wears the white jacket and has all the knowledge, I said, to him on my behalf, " you know, no one knows what it is like when you get a major illness, no one knows how hard it is to be a person like me."

With that, he looked at me sheepishly, and said, " okay, Cookie, I will see you in 3 or 4 years." Which I added, " 30."

ianrtech
03-01-2011, 10:41 PM
i feel for you cookie. hope things get better.

Cookie
03-02-2011, 06:01 AM
Thank you Ian. I wanted to express to the other Ian, that distrust and being ignorant are 2 different things here. I am old enough to remember a much kinder caring world. It wasn't perfect and it surely, wasn't ever like the old tv shows but, it was better in regards to kindness. This is a loss. I am able to see this loss in our country. I see it in all walks of professions and all ages of people. I don't know how this happened or why it it happened, but it crept into our society like a cancer itself. And, like cancer it is going to be hard to get rid of even if possible. I notice it but I wonder how many others see this occurance, like Ian, I think, he sees it as a sense of distrust. I wish it was that easy. Maybe things in a weird way has been too easy here in the US. And, like discipling a child a contemp sets in. That would make them be accountable... accountable for their actions.

Life maybe hasn't been easy for most people but compare to the harshness of today, it might be seen that way. How funny it is but no one wants, really wants change.

There is a wave of change going across the US, it has been for years. Those who realize it and roll with it are fine, those who have not been aware of it, cannot. And, it will have adverse reactions. 1. The kindness towards other will be slim to none 2. The attitude of the people will change and like playing dominoes that will be the mood of the country.

You can't put the whole country on anti-depressants like fluoride in the water, although I would like to add it to a few people's coffee I know, lol; my fear is, I may never live long enough, and I don't mean because of my health issues, but because this mood of the country will take generations to play itself out. So, am I talking great-grandchildren will inherit this? You bet.

Will people now continue on not caring about their fellowman? Will an old man slam a door on someone, (who when I was a child, would never had slammed a door on someone who clearly, was dealing with something and needed the help) do it yet, today and in the future? Age over physical problem? I am afraid, yes. I think, the much older generation of today are very lost. And, in some ways so rightfully, so. Here, they were brought up to respect their elders and now, that they are old, see they are not getting it. They express it by actions which are much less than kind. This is the generation whereas, in our country real estate was booming and most made a nice bundle in their homes, had pensions, had savings plans which did nothing but increase through the years, things looked stable for them, and now, things are not stable and lost stuff due to maybe, alittle bit of bad judgement, bad planning, bad luck, and maybe, even alittle bit of greed. Yet, instead of being appreciative for all good fortunes and good times, others may never see in their lifetime, they are angry. They will say and believe things like, " I worked all my life and this is what I get!" They will not see that others have worked also, maybe, just as hard, and didn't get one-half the results they did. Anger is a bad thing for it speads to those around you; be happy, for what you had, be happy for being able to work hard to get what you got or had. If it bothers you that your shoes are worn out and you can't afford new ones, just stop and think, about the person who has no reason to buy shoes, for he has no feet. One person at a time, one attitude at a time, can change the mood of this country and your life.

People in the age bracket of the late 30's to 40's, have developed a chip on their shoulder, they have developed a cocky attitude and this is being passed on to their children. Their attitude is such as, they were promised a rose garden and got a whole bunch of thorns. I see this generation as the last real spoiled children syndrome. This is the generation that you can't teach because they know everything.

How often do you remember as a child, your parent teaching you to be kind. Manners and kindness can be confused. It is teaching kindness to open a door for someone, or pick up something someone dropped, an action... How often do you see it today?

You can teach an ape to say in sign language, " thank you" but, can you teach him kindness? Can you teach him an action which comes from a feeling heart with regards, to others? To think, only of others?

How often do you hear ignorant things coming out of someone's mouth and you stare in disbelief that someone actually, said that to you? That is because of the anger people are feeling in our country. Anyone and everyone become their pressure relief valve.

It is not distrust, it is everything but. It is anger because things are changing, and maybe, some not for the good, higher prices in everything. Having to work harder to save a dime, to buy gas, education, health, everything in life. Yet, the answer is not in the govn dictating our lives; the answer lies within, each and everyone of us. To do our part to make the changes positive ones, not for us, but for our generations to come. We need to care.

Boy, do we need to care.

LOTW
03-02-2011, 08:01 AM
I agree with Cookie. I am a strong supporter of programs which provide assistance to improve a person's condition. Subsidized higher education, Habitat for Humanity, etc are all examples of programs which require people to contribute to their own improvement and which should be supported. However, there are too many government programs, i.e. Section 8 housing, which provide an incentive for people to stay single and poor, have children, and not improve their condition. These, types of programs, in my opinion, need to have time limits put on them. But that does not mean that I do not care. Think tough love and review Redwood's real life examples which he posted. And also remember that every dollar spent on government employees who administer the program is a dollar taken away from the people who could benefit from the program.

I also agre with Ian the Brit who believes that we should do more for university education. Before we simply increase funding, however, we should scrutinize the way money is currently being spent. For example, the local state university here pays its football coach about 4 million dollars per year. Couldn't some of the money generated by athletics be applied to academics? And this university's art museum many years ago was given a painting by Jackson Pollack which is now worth somewhere between 150 and 200 million dollars. Think how many scholarships could be provided at the local community college to educate electricians, plumbers, dental hygenists, teachers, cops, etc if this painting was sold and the money invested. Would that not be better than having a painting which looks strikingly like cat puke? And don't get me started on the number of highly paid administrators that are employed at the university.

ianrtech
03-02-2011, 09:07 AM
i have Dysgraphia so bear with me. yes charites are great i'll give money to a homeless program but not to the person on the cornor. a time limit is not the answer its arbatary its the person you have to consider. what about the ones that first got the axe in the ressetion. times up but corps still are not hiring to bad for you. guotes like "the top 10% pay 50% of taxes so there taxes are to high" but they controll 95% of the money. tricle down ecomomis do not work. billoin dollar corps that pay close to nothing on taxxes? advertise we give ?% to charities while are schools get cut. yes thigs need to change. but getting rid of govt is not the answer. put more money in the class rooms. longer sohool year and days and better lunch progarms. to impove the future. school vochures? yea that and 10K+ will get your kid in a good school. probily run by the likes Bernie Ebbers

ballvalve
03-02-2011, 11:35 AM
These poor mothers need help. Not the full weight of your American economic abuse.

Give them generous social payments.

Provide social worker visits.

Provide subsidized housing and utilities.

Else feel the wrath of their angry kids when they grow up.

The choice is yours.

Pay now. Or pay more later.

That IS available to them in abundance. There are even transportation assistance programs.

But mom is watching the home shopping channel and the kids are on satellite #2 and #3 watching the 'chain saw massacre' movies.

The car sits idle as it blew a rod because mom didnt know it took oil, and that tires need air.

Dad is rapping on the street with malt liquor, and hasnt been home in a year.

I would like you to extract a happy, balanced child from that morass. You would have to start building orphanages again and removing the kids from the monsters.

Paying now, paying later and building bigger prisons.

Here is my kids playground. Bought this remote mountain years ago by working like the proverbial horse and growing my own food. Anyone instilled with a hard work ethic can still do it. But your social programs provide an incentive to hold down a sofa.

Give me a 2 year old from the inner city that does not have fetal alcohol syndrome, and I'll raise him up as god intended.

And give me a flock of those 18 year old rappers at 6$ an hour, and I'll provide the food, chainsaws and shovels to teach them the good feeling of hard work. Lots of dead trees left after the fire. And they can run 6"pipe for my hydro project.

Might have an issue setting my 8" ballvalve - the heaviest thing they ever carried were t.v's from the wallymart during the last riots.

Redwood
03-02-2011, 05:20 PM
I agree with Ian.

Good I'm glad you do but I myself do not care to be so narrow minded....

ballvalve
03-03-2011, 10:24 AM
Your only hope is a WPA type program that collected all the unemployed kids and had them live in the forest and perform all the needed work on trails and bridges and railings and small public works projects. And cutting the brush along the road.

And mommy dearest gets bussed to pick up trash on the parkway, the infants go to daycare, and she gets to work off her stamps and rent payments.

Now you are creating a work ethic that may provide results. No cell phones allowed.

Why feed a healthy chicken that lays no eggs?

ianrtech
03-03-2011, 10:59 AM
yeah there is something in what you say. theaching hard work and get away form the tube. 6$ hr? does that have healt ins. a 401K for retirement wrk comp...? are you really trying to help or just get cheep labor. basicaly something for next to nothing just like walmart. and whos going to hire the other 5000+ kids part of the trouble is where the jobs are you cannot live on the wages. and where the rents cheap theres no jobs. 10$hr -rent, heath ins, daycare,food clothing,ect your spending more than you earn wpa? what about high seed rail,masstransit, fixxing the roads, honnest inspections of pipe lines and other infastructure and repairing those? with real pay and bennifts

Cookie
03-03-2011, 12:47 PM
Since no one is asking this Ballsvalve, I will. Where is your compassion? Anyone of us is only one step, one pay check, one adverse event including a illness, from being homeless, jobless, and depending on welfare and others' help.

Location is everything in Real Estate, but not in parenting a child or probably, much to your disbelief, education. Kids who are Harvard bound can get into just as much trouble as a kid in an Inner city school.
Kids infact, who live in a rural area statistically speaking will commit crimes to a worse degree for fun. They are loaded with bullies. Usually, an inner city kid who commits a crime is to eat or to survive.

Drugs are found my friend, anywhere, and in an expensive area the kids are doing more much expensive drugs, which makes their habit harder to kick. Inner city kids smoke grass, they can't afford coke.

Food for thought.

If anyone really wants to be a good parent, teach them right. Teach them to respect their fellowman instead of teaching ridicule, and to judge. Teach them compassion. Teach them to make a difference in this world, to make a difference in someone's life so they themselves, one day, will teach their children this. Then, maybe, the world would be a much better place to live then, the only real concern about real estate would be just how big a house or lot you want, or how many baths.

LOTW
03-03-2011, 01:38 PM
Cookie, out of fairness to Ballsvalve you may want to re-read his posts. As I understand his position, he is advocating for the benefits of hard work. And the WPA did teach construction skills which resulted in some wonderful masonry, log and other craftsmanship. The bottom line as I see it is that we have lost the War on Poverty which was declared by LBJ and that many of the cures that we/big government have been administrating do nothing but perpetuate the problem. And Ballsvalve is right when he argues that a work ethic is necessary before this can change.

Cookie
03-03-2011, 02:00 PM
I have no problem with hard work, but compassion goes a long long way.

ianrtech
03-03-2011, 02:57 PM
Ballsvalve comes across as i got mine every one else shoulb be able to get there own. im sure no one ever help him a long. gavin newsam put care not cash into sf. its not perfect but its better than giving the homeless money to go party with. i used to do work a the shelters. look at it from the kids view. they see pepole work every day of there life and have nothing. but the drug dealer got his. they can not aford collage which is not a garanty of a job and nether is vocational school. and if you get a job does it pay a living wage. can you even aford to work? yes the war on poverty is lost now they are coming for the middle class.

Redwood
03-04-2011, 07:18 AM
Your only hope is a WPA type program that collected all the unemployed kids and had them live in the forest and perform all the needed work on trails and bridges and railings and small public works projects. And cutting the brush along the road.

And mommy dearest gets bussed to pick up trash on the parkway, the infants go to daycare, and she gets to work off her stamps and rent payments.

Now you are creating a work ethic that may provide results. No cell phones allowed.

Why feed a healthy chicken that lays no eggs?

The WPA programs were a great idea that jumpstarted us out of the great depression....
I would have been good to see something like that happen with our present economic mess...

However, instead of doing that we bailed out the Insurance Industry, Wall Street & the Banks, along with some large corporations like GM & Chrysler...

The majority of the people who would have benefited from a WPA type program are waiting for that to "Trickle Down" to them....
They shouldn't be holding their breath considering it went to Bonuses for the people that created the mess....

Ian Gills
03-04-2011, 09:16 AM
Redwood's right. We need Government support for every day people and workers!

ballvalve
03-04-2011, 11:51 AM
Since no one is asking this Ballsvalve, I will. Where is your compassion? Anyone of us is only one step, one pay check, one adverse event including a illness, from being homeless, jobless, and depending on welfare and others' help.

Compassion, I assume meaning food and shelter given altruistically without work being done for the caregiver, is best reserved for the ill, the irretrievably mentally deficient, and the handicapped. We may, or very likely will join those ranks at some point in our life, so I advocate for that.

When compassion is distributed without hard 'tests' of the individual, society ends up with these gigantic beasts that have to go sideways through the aisle of the Wallymart, with the checkout lane filled with entirely precooked and packaged food filled with corn syrup, chocolate and 80% packaging.... And frightening concoctions of chips in bags like bushel baskets. Flushed down with sodas the size of fire extinguishers.

Since my back is blown out from moving too many rocks and trees, it's very frustrating to see these 300+ pound later day mammoths glide easily on legs the size of treestumps - because their knees never hit the dirt to plant a row of onions, or climbed a ladder. Sofa to microwave to store - repeat for 65 years.

Compassion needs many checks and balances, and without a program to teach work ethics, our society will continue to slide into oblivion.

I really think that a work gang of 20 inner city kids would benefit from a summer in the forest. Potatoes cooked in the coals of the brush pile fires. Fresh roadkill rabbits and squirrels and deer cooked on a spit daily. Tents without tweets. Drinking WATER as a novelty. Teach a few to collect the local edible wild greens.

Nothing like skinning a deer to teach one the true source of his Denny's ribs and popeyes chicken.

I'll just bet that 10 of those would rejoin society with real jobs after boot camp.

Lots of jobs available in Kansas cutting up hogs and chickens that are now filled with illegals - because "compassion" was mis-applied, and ambition was squashed.

Adversity is still the mother of invention. Ask those guys in kansas that crawled through the desert to get here and were raised on home ground corn meal in a mud shack.

Cookie
03-04-2011, 12:13 PM
Your language in many respects shows a lack of respect for others and a lack of compassion, no mistaking that.

ianrtech
03-04-2011, 07:59 PM
ballsvalve your a redneck that lisens to much to fox news and talk radio to. yes i see what you saying. thou i'm not that norrow minded. no i would not like to work in a meat packing plant. why is it that they keep hirring ilegals. its bucaus they now they can walk all over them no ot "pay" breaks, health care, ect... they work for less money because 3 families will live in a 2 bedroom apt. the rights no amnesty line is going to make sure ture reform never happans. so the ilegales will keep bringing down wages. so why get off walfare if you loose to med, need daycare 600+ amo. ect. this is soppose to be about the need for unions. the us worker is the most productive! our compinsation sould show this. in the 70s labor gave up pay for benifits now there taking them away! 70s a ceo made 30 times that of the worker today 300+ times that of the worker and use every loop hole they paid for to get out of paying taxes. you need to open your mind and your heart and look at the big picture. are our schools failing because of bad teachers or are we getting what we pay for? because if one can teach one can get a job thats pays better! also if you really want to help i am sure there is a foster kid by you that needs a good home. if you can stop your self from blaming the kid for needing foster care

ballvalve
03-04-2011, 09:54 PM
Sorry to disturb you guys above, but I write to get images and thoughts that might spur some creative thinking. The social service workers are trapped in a morass of thought locked civil 'servants' that cannot go outside the box without risk of losing their pension.

Fox news and talk radio? Not on my life! Don't put me in a slot because you do not understand that we need to go outside the box in order to regenerate self respect and self support. It is inside all of us, but its squashed by easy living on the dole.

I come from a family of immigrants that never touched a dime of government money. My grandparents didnt grind corn on rocks, but they came damn close. Dad followed the coal trains with a bag for the droppings, and a .22 rifle for dinner when he was a kid. But if someone poorer and hungrier than him asked, he would have split the days work with the guy in a moment.

Cookie, you are obviously a heartfelt giver. That is a great gift. But do not mistake my language for racism or hatred. Rather I am disgusted by a society that has created a food and support system that encourages multiple births from people that weigh nearly as much as a small car, and know not the meaning of the word nurture.

I built my house on a rock, and over a library of books that amounts to several thousand tomes, collected from around a big piece of the earth starting with many in the 1500's. I read a bit of Latin, so I can enjoy some of those early ones. I have read the diaries of hundreds of holocaust survivors, and those of the German murderers. And I have met with 80 year old Slovak Jews that survived in the forest, near the homes of my ancestors. And I have slept on the sofa of my 3rd cousin that a German officer used for 2 years as his bed in the 2nd world war. During the day he rounded up Jews and sent them to Osswiciem. They say he was a very nice fellow otherwise.

I spent many a New Years eve in my families mountain chateau on the Polish-Slovak Tatra mountain border. The Germans radio antennaes are preserved on the chimney. Here they tried to kill off the partisans that lived in holes in the forest.

After a 'Andy Griffith' upbringing in Wisconsin, a few moments lying in a hole in the snow covered ground where these patriots froze and starved to death at the hands of the Germanic vermin, brings a rather hard line attitude toward gigantic welfare moms riding on a Kohls electric shopping cart.

We are insulated from historic reality in America, and most do not travel to the sights of the horrors that will be repeated. Thus few will understand my writing.

Cookie
03-04-2011, 10:16 PM
My father marched into Germany and rescued the Jews and what he saw he couldn't say without sobbing into his hands. When he would finally speak he could only say, " such a lack of compassion for another human being." He died without ever being able to undestand it. I don't think anyone can ever understand the racism and the hatred. But, you got to realize when you condemn another human being you are adding to the hatred and racism; it can be someone who looks different, has different beliefs, and different work ethics. I don't have any gifts Ballsvalve, only a whole lot of common sense in knowing what is right and what is wrong. I think, Ian is very correct when he said, about you blaming a child for needing foster care. You are not seeing the whole picture. You see an overweight person with chips at Walmart, and you see nothing else; you then assume the person is lazy and worthless. What a miserable mistake, can you not see that?

ballvalve
03-04-2011, 10:52 PM
Parents make children require foster care. I have not proposed otherwise.

400 pounds, a store supplied scooter, 5 kids in rags eating candy bars, a wad of food stamps, and a counter full of junk food:

Juries convict people of murder on less evidence.

You will not see it in Europe.

Cookie
03-05-2011, 06:24 AM
Back in 2000, I was put on mega does of steriods to treat the anemia chemo caused, and I had gained... 90 some pounds! This put me into the fatty category. I wasn't happy about it. I never touched a chip. We did the blood transfusions, when we could find the blood. My blood type is in the 1% of the total population in the US. The steriods caused 2 eventual heart attacks. But, this is now, 2011 and still, thankfully, alive. This anemia almost cost me my life. It was the closest ever I was to death.

The scooters, ah yes, the scooters. My aunt used one because she had a heart attack and her heart was too weak to walk. Yes, she was a fatty. What would you had thought if you saw her? My husband was 6' feet and weighed 172 when he succumbed to a heart attack. Both of them, had genetic heart problems. One lived, one died. The one who died was because the medicine man failed to do his job. Would my husband had used a scooter if he had lived and needed to? I would had made sure he did. Would it had been different in what you thought if you would had seen him in a scooter?

Then, I was put on new and improved drugs and lost weight. I had people asking me, " do you have an eating disorder honey?" The waitress in a restaurant gave me the evil eye when I ordered something light to eat, so much so was the hairy eye-ball, I had to tell her the truth, I was on chemo and the round of ah's... spoke her ignorance. At the time, I now weighed 88 pounds, way too skinny, I was an Olive Oil straight out of the cartoons or maybe, a person who looked like a Holocaust survivior.

Oh my God, what is this world coming to, a kid eating a candy bar. I remember once many years ago, I was in the supermarket with a friend and we both had our kids with us. My younger son came up asking me if he could get a book. Being I was a member of the RIF, love reading, got an extensive library of my own and was impressed & happy as hell he asked because of his dyslexia the answer was, go for it, get a book.

My friend's little girl came up asking her mom the same question, being I knew of the woman's financial difficulties none of which she made herself, it is called, life, I wasn't surprised when she said to just get a candy bar.

OH MY GOD, I am sure what some other's thought around her. The kid asked for a book and was told to get a candy bar. What they didn't know and what facts wasn't available to them was she had a very sick mother and dad, taking care of both of them, physically and financially. Her and her husband was footing the bill, and using their own sweat in the process of being round the clock nurse's. It was a "splurge" for the little girl to get a candy bar and far less money than a book.

Monday nights we all would go to the book mobile and get "free" loans on books. She would sit and read with her kids.

I remember something growing up I had wished over a period of time I could had forgotten. I was a little girl sitting in church on Sunday and my mom was the best. My clothes was clean and very nice. But, maybe not nice enough for some folks, for the 2 old women dressed in better clothes, infact one was a fur, sitting next to me. I remember hearing that they said about me, it was "disgraceful" that I came to church in what they called and what you called, " rags."

These were not rags. It was a pretty little dress which I was proud of, which wasn't good enough for them. Maybe, they didn't learn a lesson that day, unless, God taught them something in that church that day that I didn't hear or see, but, I know I learned a lesson. The lesson was not to judge.

I remember looking at them so they know I even heard. I was convicted of what Ballsvalve? What is a kid convicted of for eating or wanting a candy bar?

In life, in all walks of life, I will meet others who are different than me, but none better than me, none less than me, just different and those differences are what makes us all unique and it is global.

When I see someone different than me, someone who needs help, I know they have a story to tell, a reason how and why it all happened. How they got to that point in their life, whether it be, they weigh 400 pounds, homeless, jobless, sick, anything else that life can throw at you. When we are lucky enough, strong enough, like some people tell me, that we can field those things and get well despite what doctors tell you; if you, can build a house on a rock and make it home, then, we need to help others be able to do the same. Some people are not as lucky as us, or as strong as us, and to share our strengths and abilities and our luck is the right thing to do. The only thing to do. I believe in the govn programs, and for those who need it, we need more of those, but we also, need people to open their hearts and minds and at times, their wallets to be their for others who need it to survive and to make a life easier to live.

If you want to help someone, then help someone, do not judge. Buy them something healthier and say, " here, enjoy," with a smile on your face. I have dropped off bags of groceries to families through the years and left the bag on the porch. In it, if they had kids, you would find healthy stuff and a junk candy bar. Help them, don't lecture them, or judge them, offer them even a job, if in the position to, and remember the golden rule, of treating others the way you would want to be treated. Above all, don't eye their candy up they might think you want it.

Ian Gills
03-05-2011, 09:34 AM
I come from a family of immigrants that never touched a dime of government money.

Why not?

You pay taxes now, don't you?

What Americans need to understand is that Government is good.

It's like a Bank. It helps you out in the bad times to get repaid in the good times.

So use it. Why be ashamed? And why be a sucker to refuse accepting what is already yours?

ballvalve
03-05-2011, 10:13 AM
Trouble with government is that its a bank with no doors or windows, and they change their own rules like ones underwear.

And cookie, I know about steroids, and those scooters are starting to look good on certain days. But the gals of which I speak are on Fritos, not steroids.

Cookie
03-05-2011, 11:30 AM
If you know about steriods then, you also, know about the weight gain from them. The weight gain can be incredible depending on the reason for its useage. Mine was to be able to breath since, I had no red blood cells. Now, how on earth do you know that a person's overweight condition is from frito's and not steriods? Do you have xray vision? Do you live with all those people? Just because you see an overweight person with a cart full of junk, do not make the mistake of assuming it is all for them. Plus, additionally, many people will not disclose a health problem due to many reasons, one, is so they will not be judged for it.

Leave the scooters for those who need it. I can assume you do not, trust that those who do use them, do need it. I am not so sure you understand what compassion is.

Ian, my father would not fill out the paperwork for school grants, so, I had to work to pay for it. It was very difficult. Something, I thought was wrong and when, it came time for my sons, I filled out the grant paperwork to make life easier for them when they had to pay back the loans, it was a lessor amount over time. I encourage those to take advantage of the state grants, it is foolish not to.

Life is sometimes, too hard, and too short.

Ian Gills
03-05-2011, 12:23 PM
Ian, my father would not fill out the paperwork for school grants, so, I had to work to pay for it. It was very difficult. Something, I thought was wrong and when, it came time for my sons, I filled out the grant paperwork to make life easier for them when they had to pay back the loans, it was a lessor amount over time. I encourage those to take advantage of the state grants, it is foolish not to.

Good on you Cookie! A clever country wouldn't require much paperwork at all for these types of grants because it would have sussed that a few dollars of educational allowance now is worth thousands of tax dollars later.

But America is not a clever country when it comes to the role of Government. Trust me. Bigger and easier is better than smaller with too many checks and balance i.e. paperwork.

At least those in America who don't like single moms to have kids but will gladly let them keep a gun are not in power.

May they never come to power! They are simply not clever enough.

ianrtech
03-05-2011, 01:22 PM
ok ballvalve you like to stir the pot. but if in your collection of books you hace c.s. louwis's book the screw tape letters please read it. if not i'll send you a copy. i do belive your correct that a good amount of pepole on the dole need to get off the the sofa and get to work. but they need help and a job that will give them self respect. ie HONEST PAY for a honest days work that they can LIVE on not just survive. not a cadalic but not a used yogo either. to day most of the job market is in the service sector. clerks, store stockers, burger flippers, 20 to 35 hrs a week with no benifits yes ia person has to start some where but theres no place to go up to except for a few. bussiness has been sitting on a lot of cash but not using it to create jobs. now there buying the compition and down sizing. less comp higher prices less pay bigger bonusess for the top. who will out souce more wrk to places that won't think twice about puting lead in it or antifreze to save money and if there cauht they have say its a sub contractor or have a golden parichute. yes govt programs need to change to be more effective but that is differant than doing away with them all to gether. i'm not for deregulation but make the regs easy to follow for the little guy and storng so the big guy cannot get around the with a army of lawers and lobbeists and be eld acountable.

Redwood
03-05-2011, 02:16 PM
Redwood's right. We need Government support for every day people and workers!

Is that what I said?

If you think it is... Can I suggest visiting this website? (http://rif.org/)

Cookie
03-05-2011, 02:26 PM
The paperwork is alot Ian, but why do you think that makes us not clever. HA! My father was a man who fought for his country, fought for the freedom's of others. He laid his own life on the line to the point where he sacificed more than just his hearing. A balance is what needs to be found. Not socialism Ian. Never socialism. I am in favor of govn programs and state funds, and grants, but, BUT not to the point or the degree where you are fond of. I don't know if you can understand this.

We need and can have the best of both worlds. We have been doing it for years. That is why we are the best country in this world, and everyone wants to live here. I do think, those who get their education here for free and agree to use it after graduation in their own country, to benefit their own county, should abide by what they had signed, too many do not. Their country loses and so does ours.



Good on you Cookie! A clever country wouldn't require much paperwork at all for these types of grants because it would have sussed that a few dollars of educational allowance now is worth thousands of tax dollars later.

But America is not a clever country when it comes to the role of Government. Trust me. Bigger and easier is better than smaller with too many checks and balance i.e. paperwork.

At least those in America who don't like single moms to have kids but will gladly let them keep a gun are not in power.

May they never come to power! They are simply not clever enough.

ballvalve
03-06-2011, 09:28 AM
but if in your collection of books you hace c.s. louwis's book the screw tape letters please read it. if not i'll send you a copy.

Pretty sure its there but never got through it. I would rather suggest you read 'Atlas Shrugged' and 'The Fountainhead'. Ian, the original pot stirrer, also needs to study those, as his suggestion of societal rule by 'committee' is death to the human soul, spirit and productivity.

Single moms should be issued guns by the government to protect themselves and kids.

And cookie, one need not gain much weight on Prednisone if they can control the urge to eat from that terrible drug. And most doctors do not know how to use it anyway, causing much uneeded suffering.

After shopping in every sort of store in most of east and west europe, and not seeing any stump legged monsters weighing as much as a Trabant, [except for a few babushka's that at 80 were still planting potatoes and plucking geese] one gains a bit of x-ray vision at the American Wallymart. We have a problem here.

Ian Gills
03-06-2011, 09:56 AM
I am not a pot stirrer.

I'm just trying to make a few Americans think about things they find uncomfortable, and are most probably true.

Ian Gills
03-06-2011, 10:03 AM
....................

master plumber mark
03-06-2011, 02:53 PM
hey IAN look who is back...little old me
it does no tlook like much has changed here in a year
.

glad I missed out on it ....

thought I would drop by and say hello

rather a boring day, sitting here babysitting the kids
thought I would see what has transpirred

I feel someones blood pressure riseing already

Cookie
03-06-2011, 04:31 PM
In regards to your reply about the steriods, I suggest that you contact every doctor and explain to them the proper use of Prednisone; and, the steriods used in the mega doses to keep me alive, didn't have anything to do with eating; the use of Prednisone causes the weight gain not the eating, because it keeps your body from burning calories and working more efficiently, ie breathing, by producing more red blood cells in your body. WHICH is why body builders love the stuff. BUT, people are under the misconception, as yourself, in that it increases the appetite thus, increasing the body weight. I was on it for 1.5 years, and was weaned off it for 1.5 years. My body weight now is a svelte 118 lbs, and your head would spin if you saw me my friend.

Ask your doctor he will explain it all to you. You will marvel at it all the knowledge you will gain, Ballsvalve.






Pretty sure its there but never got through it. I would rather suggest you read 'Atlas Shrugged' and 'The Fountainhead'. Ian, the original pot stirrer, also needs to study those, as his suggestion of societal rule by 'committee' is death to the human soul, spirit and productivity.

Single moms should be issued guns by the government to protect themselves and kids.

And cookie, one need not gain much weight on Prednisone if they can control the urge to eat from that terrible drug. And most doctors do not know how to use it anyway, causing much uneeded suffering.

After shopping in every sort of store in most of east and west europe, and not seeing any stump legged monsters weighing as much as a Trabant, [except for a few babushka's that at 80 were still planting potatoes and plucking geese] one gains a bit of x-ray vision at the American Wallymart. We have a problem here.

Cookie
03-06-2011, 04:37 PM
Hey MM, Cass says, " hello" I am on the phone with him right now.

master plumber mark
03-06-2011, 04:44 PM
:cool::cool:Please send hugs and kisses to cass for me.....:rolleyes:

have you been doing ok??


I got to go type up some estimates now,,,,
been very busy lately,,,,

Cookie
03-06-2011, 05:03 PM
Cass is faxing invoices over to the company, he is doing great! Today is his Bday, we wanted to get together but I had to work, so it will have to wait. Plus, he has a cold. I don't want the cold, :) I have had some scary moments, one lately, but, it turned out to be a false alarm, thank God. Did I say, thank God... let me say it again, lol...Life is good. Even though they don't know what it was, they know what it wasn't, lymphoma. Went shopping today after work, bought a new purse, :)

How's the kiddies? Can't believe you are still babysitting!

Don't know if you heard, but, I got a grandson now. WOW... a grandmother! That is scary MM, I have been babysitting, :) I stink at it too. Am open to pointers.

master plumber mark
03-06-2011, 05:22 PM
I thougt you lived in the northwest?? and does not cass lives in the midwest.....???

did someone move recently ???...

Congrads on the grandson.....

having grandkids has a tendency to mellow people out a whole lot..
I think it trips some sort of DNA gene reaction when you link up with your childrens kids
soul memories or something......

gives a whole new meaning or dimention to your life...
or something like that....

take care

Ian Gills
03-06-2011, 05:29 PM
Mark's back!

Let's raise taxes!

Cookie
03-06-2011, 05:32 PM
No, we live pretty close together, not far. Grandkids, I waited on one, and " surprise mom!" he said, "you're going to be a grandmother." I was elated. He is now almost 6 months old, a real beauty he is. He is a white blonde, blue eyes like my son. I am beginning to see alittle bit of red it in though. I never want to put him down when I hold him. I like just looking at him, and think, arrogantly, think, this wouldn't had happened if it weren't for me, lol. Ah, I like kids.

LOTW
03-07-2011, 07:01 AM
Why not?

You pay taxes now, don't you?

What Americans need to understand is that Government is good.

It's like a Bank. It helps you out in the bad times to get repaid in the good times.

So use it. Why be ashamed? And why be a sucker to refuse accepting what is already yours?

Ian the Brit, the shame comes from that honor thing that we talked about before. Honor tends to raise its pesty little head anytime someone is happy to take more out of the collection plate than they put in.

ballvalve
03-07-2011, 10:26 AM
use of Prednisone causes the weight gain not the eating, because it keeps your body from burning calories and working more efficiently, ie breathing, by producing more red blood cells in your body. WHICH is why body builders love the stuff.

Body builders use androgenic-anabolic steroids which are an entirely different class of drugs.

Cookie
03-07-2011, 06:46 PM
Might be, but I am still right about what I said about the eating, breathing, red blood cells, etc. I live with a Hemolytic anemia with a cold antibody. My counts was so low one winter that with gloves on while shoveling snow, I got frostbite on my finger, and then, it turned into a staph infection, nearly lost my finger. The really important finger, too, LOL. What I deal with, you wouldn't want my friend.

ballvalve
03-08-2011, 11:47 AM
You can buy some nice places in Vegas and California for the homes material cost now. No snow tires required. And no frostbite unless you get locked in your freezer.

Cookie
03-08-2011, 12:10 PM
Calif? I don't think so. Nice place to visit but my family is here. I like snow.

ballvalve
03-09-2011, 10:19 AM
The big advantage is that you still get snow, over green grass, and it melts in a few days, and you are outside in a t shirt again.

Then you can drive to the ocean in a few hours or to the desert in less. Try that in Ohio or Wisconsin!

And at the higher elevations, I think the snowpack is around 36 feet right now.

But its hard to leave family for frozen fingers.

Cookie
03-09-2011, 08:27 PM
You got that right.

ianrtech
03-11-2011, 08:44 AM
i was refering to is the part of the plot where its not getting a person to commit big sins to get them to hell but little things of everyday life that paves the path to hell. but his use of a giant bureaucracy as a metaphor for hell is right on target.