View Full Version : Am Std Champion vs Toto Drake
09-07-2004, 09:28 AM
I am in the market to buy 3 new toilets and have visited a local showroom that carries Totos. I have also been to Lowes and seen the American Standard Champion. There is a huge difference in price with the Totos being significantly higher in price, at least through this showroom. What is the difference in performance and is it worth the price difference. I also noticed the AS Champion has a 10 year warranty while I think the Toto has a 5 Year Warranty !!! We want an excellent residential flusing toilet and would prefer to stay away from the noisey pressure assists. We are willing to spend a little extra if it is truly worth the price in performance. What should we expect to pay for the Totos? We are also interested in the ADA height, will that be significantly more expensive?
Any feedback would be greatly apprciated.
09-07-2004, 10:32 AM
I've used both the Toto Drake (http://www.terrylove.com/wwwboard/messages2/42891.html)and the American Standard Champion (http://www.terrylove.com/wwwboard/messages2/42893.html)and have to say that I prefer the Toto Drake.
As far as the A/S 10 year warranty goes, it's nice to be optimistic, but I believe it's premature to offer a 10 year on an untried product.
I will say that the Champion I installed for testing has already had the original defective tank replaced.
The first tank leaked water from the tower and the hardware released too soon, not allowing enough water from the tank to clear the bowl. :(
The new tank works at the moment, but for how long?
I've seen many 50 year roofs replaced within five years and what about those lifetime siding products pulled from the market.
The ADA versions are long, tall and heavy. If you have grab bars installed, check to see if this toilet will fit under them.
On the other hand, the Toto Drake has a very complete flush and moves a lot of waste. 900 grams for the CST744S elongated version.
The fill valve and flapper are made by Lavelle Korky in the US.
Repairs to them are easy and can be done quickly without tools. :)
My pricing can be seen here (http://www.easycarts.net/ecarts/terrylove/Toto_Toilets.html)
When things are working as they should, either of these will do the job.
Drake 800 grams by Veritech Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmuzFve6O4k)
09-12-2004, 08:05 AM
:confused: Terry and others,
What's the deal with the Am Std. site? They compare the Champion to the TOTO Drake (and others) and show that the Champion flushes more sponges, rubber tubes, and paper balls. At Terry's site, the Drake is shown to flush 900 mg and the Champion 500 mg (soy paste I think). I realize these substances are all very different but it all seems suspect.
I have a Drake elongated that replaced a Kohler Wellworth elongated. Unbelievable!!! The Kohler was just awful. My kids called me plunger man. That has all since changed. The Drake flushes anything and everything, and believe me; my family has put it to extreme test. My complaint is that there is a tendency to have some bowl residue because of the shape and the lower jet design - that's why I'm looking into the Champion for my newly finished basement. I'd like to choose the Champion and support an American company (even though it's probably made in China) Vs. Toto which is Japanese (I work in Detroit)
Assuming the Champion valve and seal problems are now fixed:
1. The Champion looks like the flush may clean the bowl better - what do you think?
2. Any comments on the performance disparity between Champion and Drake? Is everyone looking at an elongated version?
3. The Drake provides up to 3 gal if you hold down the lever long enough. Am Std. states that the Champion is limited to 1.6 gal? Is this true? If I choose a Champion, is this a concern for the extra big jobs?
09-12-2004, 08:53 AM
All manufacturers sites should be considered marketing sites and be evaluated on the basis of commercial speech principles. Meaning, Don't believe S***.
The words American Standard should not be used in the same sentence with. Toto. Terry speaks the voice of repair plumbers who are committed to protecting owners and users of products. Use Toto if you want to see it Go, away.
Terry Love's shopping cart (http://www.easycarts.net/ecarts/terrylove/Toto_Toilets.html)
09-12-2004, 04:29 PM
The Champion is limited to 1.6 gallons or less. Less if there is "wear" on the linkage and the flush tower drops too soon.
That's what happened to mine after a while.
When that happened, I couldn't flush anything down.
Here is a hack for the Champion that a reader sent me.
09-13-2004, 08:03 AM
There is a big difference between a plumber installing a toilet, flipping the handle and thinking everthing is good, and being the one with the toilet, having to use it day in and day out.
I remove quite a few American Standard and Kohler toilets for obvious reasons.
If they had been good, we wouldn't even be talking about this.
The Am. Standard Champion is an improvement over their Cadet design, which was not very good.
The Kohler Cimarron is an improvement over the Wellworth, which was not very good either. The Cimarron could use better bowl wash.
MAP toilet report, June 2004 (http://terrylove.com/pdf/map_june_2004.pdf)
Toto Drake EL (http://www.terrylove.com/wc/totocst744s.htm), ................900 grams :) puts it all together
Toto Ultramax EL (http://www.terrylove.com/wc/ultramax.htm), .............700 grams
Toto Ultramax ADA.............700 grams 16-1/2" high bowl
Kohler Cimarron ADA (http://www.terrylove.com/wc/kohler_cimarron.htm),..........675 grams could use better bowl wash
Toto Dalton ADA (http://www.easycarts.net/ecarts/terrylove/Toto_Toilets.html#CST734F),.............. 650 grams
Am. Standard Champion EL,. 575 grams will new tanks hold up?
Am. Standard Champion ADA (http://www.terrylove.com/wc/as/champion.htm),500 grams
Mansfield Alto RF, ..............275 grams average
Kohler Wellworth RF, ..........225 grams average-
Am. Standard Hamilton EL, ..175 grams
Am. Standard Cadet RF, .....175 grams
Kohler Wellworth EL,.......... 150 grams
Am. Standard Cadet EL,..... 150 grams
Kohler Memoirs RF, ............125 grams :(
TOTO Drake 800 grams by Veritech, Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmuzFve6O4k)
09-26-2004, 06:56 PM
I have an American Standard Champion and it works well. I did have to replace the tank though, but it's ok now. Sure do wish the tank would fit snug and not wobble so much.