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View Full Version : Single to Double Sink Vanity (again)



SAS
06-16-2010, 10:22 AM
First, let me apologize as I know that there are many threads on this subject already. But after reading them all, I am still confused. I have what I would have thought was a common and straightforward issue. The current plumbing is in the center of the wall and will need to be relocated about 15" to both the right and left. As usual the supply plumbing is easy, but the drain is confusing. Without opening the wall, is there a simple fitting that could be added to the current centered drain opening and then connected to the trap under each sink? Could you add a wye horizontally to the horizontal pipe coming out of the wall?

Terry
06-16-2010, 10:29 AM
NO. You can't just throw a second wye in.
The point of plumbing, is to prevent trap siphoning.

Of course if you don't care about smell, then it doesn't matter.
Each trap needs to be vented.
When you run waste paste a second sink, it pulls the water from that trap.
When that happens, well I guess you know what it's like to live in Guatemala.
You are now becoming your own third world country.

Third World Plumbing (http://www.worldplumbing.org/docs/Bonn_presentation_BURGON_25April_07.pdf)


It seems that people in developed nations have subsequently either forgotten about or never really been aware of the public health role of the plumbing industry.

If it is accepted that the plumber is a health professional, then a comparison can be drawn with the education and training requirements of other health professionals. Few would claim that a doctor or nurse can acquire all of their necessary skills and knowledge in a few weeks. Nor is that the case for the plumbing health professional.


http://www.terrylove.com/images/double_lav_rough_1.jpg

geniescience
06-16-2010, 10:32 AM
Tubular Continuous Waste Center Outlet
Tubular "Continuous Waste" Center

These are key words to go web searching.

SAS
06-16-2010, 10:39 AM
NO. You can't just throw a second wye in.
The point of plumbing, is to prevent trap siphoning.

Of course if you don't care about smell, then it doesn't matter.
Each trap needs to be vented.
When you run waste paste a second sink, it pulls the water from that trap.
When that happens, well I guess you know what it's like to live in Guatemala.
You are now becoming your own third world country.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/double_lav_rough_1.jpg

I'm not sure I see how the water from one sink would run past the other. If I took your picture and added a tee instead of the wye (sanitary cross?) and then added the Y horizontally, wouldn't that be the same as adding the wye as I suggested?

hj
06-17-2010, 07:07 AM
Right now you have absolutely no idea HOW the pipes are arranged in the wall. You have a very good chance of having the drain pipe go horizontally, rather than vertical and if that is the case you options become much more complicated. Usually two sinks are going to have drawers between them and if that is the case a "continuous waste" or a "second Y" are probably not feasible, but then they are not the ideal first choice in any case.

SAS
06-17-2010, 11:18 AM
So if I understand you correctly, the only way to do this is to first open up the wall to see how the current drain is configured?

Obama the Plumber
06-17-2010, 12:15 PM
Plumbing for a double lav goes in the wall.
That's what the pictures show. Have you ever seen it done any other way?
I haven't.

SAS
06-18-2010, 11:14 AM
Plumbing for a double lav goes in the wall.
That's what the pictures show. Have you ever seen it done any other way?
I haven't.
Not sure if you were trying to make a joke or just be confrontational. I know that the plumbing "goes in the wall" and obviously if there is a single sink there now, there is a waste pipe that goes into the wall. What I was asking was whether it was necessary to open the wall to determine where/how the plumbing is routed in the wall (as suggested by HJ), or whether I could simply use the existing waste pipe and hook the two sinks to that pipe. And if I can use that existing pipe, what is the best way to hook the two sinks together and up to that pipe?

If you can help answering those questions, that would be great. If not, I'm not sure why you bothered posting a reply.

jadnashua
06-18-2010, 11:42 AM
The difference is this: see the pipe coming out of the top of the wye? That is the vent. Because it is there, rather than combining the waste outside the wall with another wye (putting the vent further away), it breaks the siphoning effect and waste from one drain won't affect the other's seal in the p-trap. So, no, you can't do what you want and have a reliable result without looking into the wall.

geniescience
06-18-2010, 12:49 PM
"Trap arm" is key here. Saying "the plumbing" is vague.

I cannot follow what you mean in your original post.
I cannot figure out whether or not Terry of "hj" are making sense either.
Too many assumptions, to be certain.
Too many vague terms.

You wrote ".. after reading them all, I am still confused." But you didn't clarify if you were referring to your "plumbing " as being the part prior to the P trap, or the part that comes downstream of the P trap.

"The current plumbing is in the center of the wall and will need to be relocated about 15" to both the right and left."


It could do with some clarification. If you please !

Terry
06-18-2010, 01:22 PM
If you are asking how to plumb two lavs without siphoning the p-traps, then the answer is to pipe each lav with a separate p-trap and trap arm, each one vented in the wall.
Does the wall need to be opened up? Yes.

The method you have been asking about does not meet any plumbing code I know of.
If you don't want answers from plumbers, then maybe you should have posted it at a true DIY site and a homeowner can answer your question with,

"I work on computers, but sure, everything works."

I'm pretty sure that in other fields, not everything works.
I'm pretty sure that that they have classes and eduction for every job.
Plumbing requires an 8,000 hour apprenticeship.
We're trying to save your bacon with some quick answers, but you don't like hearing that the wall needs to be opened up.
Plumbing is simple, right? That's why they require only 8000 hours, class lessons and then a State required test and licensing, followed up with plumbing permits and inspections.

Right now, get on the phone and order a plumbing permit like the rest of us.
Then you can ask your local plumbing inspector if what you are doing will pass "his" inspection.

We give advice that will satisfy a plumbing inspector.
If you don't give a rats ass about permits and inspections, then don't bother posting.

There are other sites out that there will pat you on the back and tell you that everything works.
Not everything will pass inspection, not everything will drain when you are done, not everything will prevent siphoning of the p-traps, but anything can be done.
Not everthing works in real life though.

I love it.

And this is as easy as it gets.
We even had a picture to show you.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/lav_rough_double_b.jpg

geniescience
06-20-2010, 07:57 AM
One p trap only, and a continuous waste center outlet. Without opening the wall, this is the "simple fitting that could be added to the current centered drain opening and then connected to the trap "

SAS you wrote
Without opening the wall, is there a simple fitting that could be added to the current centered drain opening and then connected to the trap under each sink?

You meant to write:
Without opening the wall, is there a simple fitting that could be added to the current centered drain opening and then connected to the trap
NOT one trap under each sink.

AM I right about this?

ballvalve
06-20-2010, 10:23 AM
Around here, you can find the second sink hooked up to the original sink with some pool or vacuum hose and some clamps and a tee. Welcome to Afghanistan west, but it actually works. Easy to clean, just hook it back up to the shop vac.

Terry
06-20-2010, 11:08 AM
Yes, I'm sure vacuum hose and kitchen sink fittings or rubber hoses will work.
Keep in mind, that the more pipe above the p-trap there is, the more exposed pipe area creating bad smells.
The whole point of good plumbing is to reduce smells in home. If you don't mind bad smell, or you keep a plug-in deodorizer in the bathroom then I guess you will be okay.
A plumber would try to have as little pipe above the trap seal as possible. We have sensitive noses.

I'm getting hungry just looking at this
http://www.terrylove.com/images/grease_in_drain_1.jpg

Looking inside a sink drain, you know this stuff smells good.
http://www.terrylove.com/images/grease_in_drain_2.jpg

Stuff we find inside of pipes
http://www.terrylove.com/images/gorry_03.jpg

SAS
06-20-2010, 01:59 PM
One p trap only, and a continuous waste center outlet. Without opening the wall, this is the "simple fitting that could be added to the current centered drain opening and then connected to the trap "

SAS you wrote
Without opening the wall, is there a simple fitting that could be added to the current centered drain opening and then connected to the trap under each sink?

You meant to write:
Without opening the wall, is there a simple fitting that could be added to the current centered drain opening and then connected to the trap
NOT one trap under each sink.

AM I right about this?

Yes, you are correct and I apologize for my lack of knowledge regarding plumbing terminology. I am not a plumber, but a DIY who is looking for some good advice. I have another bathroom vanity that was converted from single to double about 8 years ago. We used a local plumber. In that bathroom the drain opening was into the wall forming the right side of the vanity. The plumber added a wye horizontally and connected each sink (with its own P-trap) to the two ends of the wye fitting. We have never had any problems with the functions of the drains, nor have there ever been any odors emanating from the drains of either sink.

In this case I am looking to do it myself and can see two alternatives. One would be to do the same thing as that plumber did 8 years ago; put a wye on the centered drain opening, put a trap under each sink and connect everything together. Another option would be to use either a center or end outlet continuous waste kit and only one trap. Despite all that I have heard on this site, I still don't see why one of those (or both) wouldn't meet my 3 criteria: it works, it's safe, it meets code.

It works in my other bathroom. Hard to see what could be unsafe about it. And our town uses the National Standard Plumbing Code. I've attached the section on Traps. From what I can make out, the option of using a single trap should be within code. Separate traps are not required for lavatories which are adjacent to each other in the same room. I also couldn't find anything that said that my first option, using 2 traps and a wye, violated code (although it could be buried somewhere and I missed it or didn't understand it).

So I'm still looking to hear why neither of these options is appropriate. I understand that you wouldn't build it this way if you were starting from scratch, but if there is an option that works, is safe, and meets code and that doesn't require taking the wall down, then that's the option I'm going for.

If I'm missing something, then please tell me. And if one of my two suggested options is better than the other I'd like to know which is better and why.

And thanks in advance for any assistance.

geniescience
06-20-2010, 04:35 PM
It's safer to have only one P trap for the two sinks, so that would be a continuous waste kit. Of the options you described above, this is the safest. It's described in point (3) above. The reasons have already been described in this thread. It's because of Venting. The excerpted text in the image above does not cover Venting, which must no doubt be covered in another section.

Terry
06-23-2010, 06:28 PM
One more way to do it if you only have 1.5 pipe in the wall.
Not UPC code, but not bad either.
Normally you would have 2" on the lower end, and use a fixture cross.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/single_to_double_lav.jpg

Palmer
05-28-2011, 06:07 PM
First time poster and thanks for a great site/forum!

Revisiting this to double check on things...

Installing a double vanity where the single vanity was. Here is a pic of the existing plumbing coming out of the wall where the single sink was and a pic of the back of the double vanity. So, in order to do this correctly, I have to plumb according to the pic in post #11, correct?

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/Palmer5555/trap.jpg
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr150/Palmer5555/van.jpg

http://www.terrylove.com/images/lav_rough_double_b.jpg

Terry
05-28-2011, 08:40 PM
If you can, that would be best.

Palmer
05-29-2011, 07:09 AM
Awesome, thanks Terry! Forgot a few ?'s..

The copper strap secured to the studs to help hold the hot/cold water lines in place is called a/an..alignment strap or ???

And, if you look closely on the existing hot water line it looks like there is a grounding wire attached. I can't imagine what else it could be so I'll be sure to move that back into the wall and and reattach. Let me know if I need to post a close up...

Thanks

hj
05-29-2011, 07:29 AM
quote; I cannot figure out whether or not Terry of "hj" are making sense either.
Too many assumptions, to be certain.
Too many vague terms.

That is because you do NOT know what you have now, do not know HOW to revise it, and may not have the ability to do either. A picture of the pipe coming out of the wall and one of the cabinet is absolutely useless to determine HOW, or WHAT, you have to do to make the new installation. And if someone says a "single trap is safer", then I would pretty much reject their advice because they do not either. In many cases posters will ask, "Why do I get a sewer gas smell when I turn on the water", and it is usually a buildup in the sink's overflow and the odor is pushed out when the faucet is opened. IF you use a single trap and a long continuous waste, you have MUCH LARGER area, than a sink overflow, to get a build up, THEREFORE, when you turn on the water in one sink that "fouled" air WILL be pushed out of the other sink into the room. So now you will know the reason for the odor and will not have to ask us where it comes from. The ground wire had BETTER be connected to the cold water pipe, and it is an unusual location for it. It is usually at the water heater.

Palmer
05-29-2011, 05:06 PM
yikes...tough crowd here...i get it...i got it...

benjm
07-10-2011, 01:12 AM
If you can, that would be best.

Brand new here. I am also trying to convert a single vanity to a double but both the drain and vent pipes are to the left of where both vanities would be. What's the best way to do this? Can I just extend the single arm and just have 2 elbows on the same drain pipe? Thanks.

Ben

Jerome2877
07-10-2011, 01:46 AM
Brand new here. I am also trying to convert a single vanity to a double but both the drain and vent pipes are to the left of where both vanities would be. What's the best way to do this? Can I just extend the single arm and just have 2 elbows on the same drain pipe? Thanks.



No this will cause siphoning of the traps. Check out this thread.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?34039-Single-to-double-vanity-better-way-Illinois

benjm
07-10-2011, 11:19 AM
No this will cause siphoning of the traps. Check out this thread.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?34039-Single-to-double-vanity-better-way-Illinois

Thanks, great information there. So I opened up the wall and here is what I see. I am a little confused as to why there is a main 2" drain and then another 1.5" just for the sink drain that goes under the house. The one on all the way to the left looks like the vent stack, the next one going out the other side of the wall is the washer drain. Both of the vanity sinks will be to the right of the existing one, 1ft and 5ft. Any ideas on the best way to do this? Much appreciated.

Terry
07-10-2011, 12:28 PM
From left,
Toilet vent
Washer drain
Lav Drain

If I were to add a second lav, I would put a santee below the existing tee on the lav, extend over, long turn 90 up to a second santee looking out, and then revent into the existing 1.5" ABS

Take the shutoffs on your existing lav and throw those away. Those are not reusable.
Save yourself thousands in repairs later and spend $15 now.

benjm
07-10-2011, 03:06 PM
From left,
Toilet vent
Washer drain
Lav Drain

If I were to add a second lav, I would put a santee below the existing tee on the lav, extend over, long turn 90 up to a second santee looking out, and then revent into the existing 1.5" ABS

Take the shutoffs on your existing lav and throw those away. Those are not reusable.
Save yourself thousands in repairs later and spend $15 now.

Yes, I've already bought new shutoffs. Thanks. Is this what you mean in black? I also want to move the existing lav drain over 1' to the right (in red). Is it ok to have them both on the same arm? 13501

Terry
07-10-2011, 03:38 PM
Well, my instructions were to place a tee below the other tee, run to the rigth and the 90 up for the next tee.

My inspector here would want that. You're on the West Coast, not the East Coast.
Best to do it the way we do it here.

benjm
07-10-2011, 05:08 PM
Isn't where the black and red pipes meet what you are referring to as below the tee on the lav? I apologize if I misunderstood you, I'm a newbie and still trying to learn all the terms.

plumber2011
07-11-2011, 01:51 PM
Hi Benjm...

I'm pretty sure this is what Terry was talking about (see image). You are best to simply stub the sanitary tee straight out for the sink on the right.

benjm
07-11-2011, 02:31 PM
Hi Benjm...

I'm pretty sure this is what Terry was talking about (see image). You are best to simply stub the sanitary tee straight out for the sink on the right.

Got it. Trying to do this as simply as possible. Is there any down side to just elbow out the current lav drain to go in the middle of where the double vanity would be and the run a split after the p-trap 2ft each side?

Also, since the supply lines go out on both sides of the wall and essentially crosses the drain pipe, how would I tee out the supplies to the extra sink?

Thanks for all your input!