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howner33
11-03-2004, 09:16 AM
Hi,

I'm a homeowner with an an old Kohler in a small half bath (space
constrained, must be 10" RI). The previous owner didn't do the
venting right, so the toilet flushes poorly. I'm hoping to avoid
redoing the vent & waste pipe, and I was viewing the toto CST703.10
("reliance: http://www.totousa.com/toto/productpage.asp?PID=254) as a
"magic bullet".

I need a toilet with a 10" rough-in (has tobe "scooped out" in the back
i.o.t. to clear a baseboard heater on the wall) that would allow me to
avoid redoing the vent and waste pipe and get a better flush just by
replacing the toilet.

Now, I'm less sure, because other Toto toilets have a larger trap
diameter than the Reliance's 1 7/8" TD ( Drake has a 2 1/8"),
and the Kohler 3432 has a 2" TD.

My questions are:

1) My old Kohler is at least 25 years old ( I can't find any model
# on it) but it sure looks and measures up like a 3432. Is it safe to
assume that even an old Kohler has the same 2" TD as a new 3432 ?


2) Does extra Trap Diameter help overcome a poor venting
configuration? If so, I don't see the advantage of the Toto
Reliance over my older Kohler- Is there ?

3) Does anyone have any suggestions for another candidate toilet ?

4) Am I wasting my time and should just redo the vent
(this is a big job in an old home) ?

Thanks,

jimbo
11-03-2004, 10:21 AM
If you are SURE that it is not vented correctly, I would be hard pressed to suggest that a new waterconservation toilet would flush better. I might suspect the opposite. Just what is wrong with the vent, and how difficult would it be to fix it?

Terry
11-03-2004, 10:30 AM
My questions are:

1) My old Kohler is at least 25 years old ( I can't find any model
# on it) but it sure looks and measures up like a 3432. Is it safe to
assume that even an old Kohler has the same 2" TD as a new 3432 ?

You old Kohler uses 3.5 gallons and the trapway is around 2" I believe.
These worked fairly well. They quit making this model in 1992.


2) Does extra Trap Diameter help overcome a poor venting
configuration? If so, I don't see the advantage of the Toto
Reliance over my older Kohler- Is there ?

Poor venting will not hurt flushing, rather it will create siphon more in most cases.
What does hurt flushing is an obstruction in the trapway of the toilet, which could be something simple like a toy car stuck in there or a shampoo bottle.

If you old toilet is working poorly, I would guess it's either a plugged main line, which would mean plugged for everthing, or that there is something caught in the trapway that slows down the flush. Clearing the trapway with an auger or by pulling the toilet and working from the underside may help.

3) Does anyone have any suggestions for another candidate toilet ?

The Toto CST703.10 works well, though it is a lower end toilet.
Choices are limited when you have to have a 10" rough and you have a heater behind.

If you could post a picture, that would be nice. With a heater behind the toilet, it eliminates many choices.

4) Am I wasting my time and should just redo the vent
(this is a big job in an old home) ?

Is the vent in the way of the toilet?
Or is it in the wall out of the way?

howner33
11-03-2004, 03:09 PM
My questions are:
If you could post a picture, that would be nice. With a heater behind the toilet, it eliminates many choices.
4) Am I wasting my time and should just redo the vent
(this is a big job in an old home) ?
Is the vent in the way of the toilet?
Or is it in the wall out of the way?

I've tried to attach two pictures:
kh.persp1.jpg = old kohler on the 1st floor
bolt line ->wall = 10.75", bolt line -> baseboard face = 8.5"

venting.jpg: approximate diagram of waste pipe arrangement.
(It's an old house and it's hard to see all the layers of hacks tucked into the walls)

On reading the previous replies, I'm not sure if venting is the right
word. the 1st floor toilet used to "burp", but augering the 3" line
that ran into the main waste pipe fixed 90% of it. The old toilet
(Kohler) still is a chronic weak flusher. I thought it was the vent
because I felt a partially obstructed trap would eventually block and
it hasn't (yet).

We're going to change the color anyway,
so if a new toilet gives me any advantage (aside from low flush volume),
it seems worth trying it before messing with the waste pipe.

Thanks for any help/suggestions,

Deb
11-03-2004, 03:58 PM
On a toilet that old, I would be checking the operation of the toilet itself before I got too worried about the vent (most likely not the problem) or the drainage lines. If the holes around the rim of the bowl and the large one at the bottom of the bowl (not all toilets have these) become partially clogged, it can result in a weak flush that has nothing to do with any obstruction either in the toilet trap or the line itself. You can take a 5 gal bucket of water and quickly pour it into the bowl. If it flushes, the water is not entering the bowl from the tank fast enough to get a good flush. Sometimes the holes can be cleaned and improve the flush and sometimes not. Those cake type cleaners you put in the tank can really cause problems.
I don't think that this is a vent issue. It is folly (and can cost alot of money) to assume a problem and start replacing things indiscriminately. You may also only have a line that is 90% cleared, still creating some problems.
Deb
The Pipewench

howner33
11-21-2004, 11:08 AM
Hi,

I tried the 5 gallon bucket fill test and it was inconclusive.

In desperation we just went with the TOTO (1.5gpf), and it worked far
better than the existing (>3gpf) kohler toilet- so much so that the
problem is "officially" fixed.

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.