PDA

View Full Version : Water softener selection help



chris1044
04-25-2010, 03:50 PM
First post from a home owner newbie....I've helped plenty of friends with home projects/builds, so I'm not totally green. I was a mechanic in my former life, now an engineer, and know that there's the right way/wrong way to do things....I want to do it right, which is why I'm posting.

Recently purchased a home that had a kinetico softener in it. It was foreclosed, and the previous tenant took it with them. That said, I need a softener before I start replacing appliances and actually living there because the water is so hard/irony.

I've had Culligan and a local (Wolverine) company out to check the water and throw their pitches, and the Kinetico guy is coming out Tuesday for the same. The problem with them is that they want 3k+ for softeners (Culligan man said 2300, but I don't want to get stuck with Culligan proprietary equipment that they bend me over on when it breaks). Based off the two visits, this is what I have for water specs:

Culligan man: Hardness of 25 gpg, iron of 2 ppm, iron bacteria (smell), no sulfur, no arsenic/ammonia, fairly high dissolved solids at roughly 300 (don't know the units on this).

Wolverine: Hardness of 37 gpg, Iron of 2 ppm, Iron bacteria, no sulfur, no arsenic/ammonia, 412 for dissolved solids.

I'll have a third sample to average against after Tuesday, but the bottom line is that it's very hard water and it's got some iron in it. We had the water tested for arsenic/nitrates/etc before we bought, so it's at least safe to drink (but not until softened IMO).

I've done plenty of research, and from what I've gathered the Fleck 5600 and Clack WS1 seem to be good softeners. The home has CPVC plumbing through out, and I need to verify what size it is (though I believe 3/4"...it may be 1"). As of right now it is myself and the better half, but we'll have children eventually, so I want to size for the future right now. That in mind, I'm thinking I need at least a 42k grain softener.

But, the reason I posted is because I'm not an expert. Any input here would be great...my budget isn't really limited, I just want to do it myself and not pay for the overhead/sales, and learn how it works as I'll be fixing it when it breaks down the road. I'm hoping to stay around 1500 though...

Thanks in advance,
Chris

Wally Hays
04-25-2010, 04:05 PM
Either the Fleck or the Clack are very good choices. Both are rugged and dependable and easy to service. The WS-1 is a bit easier to service and is a more efficient unit but only slightly. If there was already a softener there then the piping should be pretty close to all set up. Should only take you a couple hrs to install it.

Bob999
04-25-2010, 04:18 PM
I am concerned about the iron bacteria--it is not generally detected by smell but by the presence of slime in the toilet tanks. If you do in fact have iron bacteria you need to deal with it first because it will foul and render a softener inoperative if not killed before the softener.

In selecting a softener valve you should consider your maximum rate of water use--the Fleck 5600 is a 3/4" valve while the Clack WS1 is a 1" valve. If your main water line is larger than 3/4" I would recommend the Clack or a 1" or larger Fleck valve. The Fleck 7000 would be my recommendation if you are buying an electronic control valve and the Fleck 2510 for an electromechanical valve.

You will be able to buy either a Clack or Fleck unit, complete and delivered, for well under $1000 from online dealers.
Of course you would be responsible for selection, installation, programming, and maintenance.

chris1044
04-26-2010, 08:31 AM
[QUOTE=Bob999;256250]I am concerned about the iron bacteria--it is not generally detected by smell but by the presence of slime in the toilet tanks. If you do in fact have iron bacteria you need to deal with it first because it will foul and render a softener inoperative if not killed before the softener.

QUOTE]

The culligan man said iron bacteria as opposed to sulfur, but the wolverine man said it was sulfur; I'll be sure to have a third opinion pitched to me tomorrow. That said, I feel as though the Culligan man may have "minipulated" my water sample test to yield numbers that matched a system within my budget - I made the mistake of telling him how much I wanted to spend before he started, and ironically the price came in roughly 100 under that.

However, in regards to iron bacteria - our toilet tanks are not slimey at all. They are, however, very rusty. This makes me think it's sulfur and not iron bacteria that's causing our smell.


Any help on sizing? Are my numbers vastly off?

Bob999
04-26-2010, 09:08 AM
The rust in the tank is consistent with iron in the water. If the water runs clear but turns orange after sitting that is consistent with what is called clear water iron and a softener will remove the quantities you have. A softener will not remove H2S--hydrogen sulfide with is typically detected by the smell of rotten eggs.

There is is significant discrepency in your hardness figures but if I use the higher figure (37 grains) plus compensation for 2 ppm of clear water iron I get a compensated hardness of 45. With 2 people and typical usage of 60 gpd per person that is 5400 grains per day to remove. With the iron content I recommend a regeneration every 4 days that would mean you need c. 22,000 grains capacity plus a reserve. You will need to regularly use a cleaner such as Iron Out or Resup with your iron content to keep the resin clean.

Softeners are sized by the volume of resin and are available with 1 ft3 (often referred to as 32,000 grains), 1.25 ft3 (often referred to as 40,000 grains) 1.5 ft3 (often referred to 48,000 grains), etc.

Given all the circumstances I would be inclined toward a 1.5 cubic foot unit for your situation so long as your peak water use is 10 gpm or less.

Gary Slusser
04-26-2010, 10:30 AM
The cuft of resin dictates the constant SFR (service flow rating) of the softener, and that has to be higher than the peak demand gpm the softener has to treat.

The cuft volume of resin dictates the size of the resin tank and the size of the tank dictates the control valve that can be used to serviced that size tank. The 5600 can be used on up to a 12" diameter tank, a 2.0 cuft softener and 10" tank for a filter, a 1.5 cuft filter. The Clack WS-1 can be used on up to a 21" diameter tank for both a softener or filter, a 7.5 cuft.

Wally Hays
04-26-2010, 11:19 AM
If it was me, I'd go with the Clack WS1. For the average homeowner the Clack is the easiest to service and maintain and requires very little putzing around to get up and running. It's pretty much a plug and play unit.

Gary Slusser
04-26-2010, 12:21 PM
If it was me, I'd go with the Clack WS1. For the average homeowner the Clack is the easiest to service and maintain and requires very little putzing around to get up and running. It's pretty much a plug and play unit.
Only IF the guy that sells it tells his customer how to size the softener and how to program the control valve. I find most do not do either.

chris1044
04-27-2010, 05:19 PM
Only IF the guy that sells it tells his customer how to size the softener and how to program the control valve. I find most do not do either.

That's what is so hard to decipher through. Each person I've had come out says something different.

Tonite the Kinetico salesman came out, and he did have what I thought were good points of that system....though I'm not sure how much they matters. First, its a dual tank which means you're never out of soft water (big deal though if you size correctly, right?). Secondly, the regenerations occur with already softened water, which he claimed made it so the softener cleans the resin beads better and therefore is better suited to handle the iron - any truth in this? Lastly, the units regen from the bottom up, where as most others regen from the top down which is where you get your sediment build up which causes touble down the road....

He said our hardness was at 27 gpg, which is inline with what the culligan man said at 25. I'm calling it a wash between all three and going to say it's 30 gpg, so I'm oversized as opposed to undersized. He also said my iron was at 2ppm.

His comment about iron is what I'm most concerned about; he wasn't strictly a kinetico dealer, and sold everything from 300 bucks up. He said that he could sell me a decent electric regen softener, but that without an iron filter in front of it i'd likely end up with trouble in a few years....any input on this?

If a softener with a Clack WS1 will handle the iron, then I'm all about doing it myself. I just want to make sure that if I spend the money, it'll last for at least 10 years with no issues. I'm not sure what well pressure is, but our CPVC is only 3/4" for what that's worth...not sure what I'd need for flow rates, but I'm sure 10gpm will suffice (not sure what the absolute for 3/4" is...)

Gary Slusser
04-27-2010, 07:20 PM
That's what is so hard to decipher through. Each person I've had come out says something different.
Then find someone on the internet that you can trust and buy it from him and invest the couple hours it takes to install it yourself.


Tonite the Kinetico salesman came out, and he did have what I thought were good points of that system....though I'm not sure how much they matters. First, its a dual tank which means you're never out of soft water (big deal though if you size correctly, right?). Secondly, the regenerations occur with already softened water, which he claimed made it so the softener cleans the resin beads better and therefore is better suited to handle the iron - any truth in this? Lastly, the units regen from the bottom up, where as most others regen from the top down which is where you get your sediment build up which causes touble down the road....
Never out of soft water is only important IF you need it 24/7, like rotating shift workers, flight crews or someone working very odd and random hours.

So regenerating with soft water is a benefit if you have iron.... that's wrong or there is such a small 'improvement' you can't measure it but.... iron fouls resin regardless of how the softener control valve regenerates the resin. And that is why Kinetico dealers love selling Res Up and other resin cleaners. And if that claim were true, why wouldn't the vast majority of softeners used with iron water be twin tank models?

Upflow brining, counter current regeneration, is used when the product water is used for like electronics and pharmaceutical manufacturing where hardness leakage (how much hardness is still in the softened water) is held to very small amounts in mg/l form. Kinetico is selling it as a good thing in the residential market where it is not needed.


He said our hardness was at 27 gpg, which is inline with what the culligan man said at 25. I'm calling it a wash between all three and going to say it's 30 gpg, so I'm oversized as opposed to undersized. He also said my iron was at 2ppm.
That is the right thing to do so it is not over sizing, it is sizing correctly.


His comment about iron is what I'm most concerned about; he wasn't strictly a kinetico dealer, and sold everything from 300 bucks up. He said that he could sell me a decent electric regen softener, but that without an iron filter in front of it i'd likely end up with trouble in a few years....any input on this?
He is normal, no Kinetico is strictly a Kinetico dealer only. They all sell the same stuff I and all other independet dealers sell. The only things that Kinetico makes is the control and by pass valves and the brine pickup tube and float.

He is BSing you about the need for an iron filter simply to make his Kinetico look as if it is a better choice. That type thing should be illegal but this is a free country so it is not illegal. But either way he flatly lied to you. And probably would have made a sale had he been honest and treated you like his brother, sister or grandmother. But then only rarely do you find that type person selling high priced Kinetico because the first lie he told was in attempting to justify their higher priced Kinetico where most of it is the same stuff he then says won't work without an iron filter in front of it.


If a softener with a Clack WS1 will handle the iron, then I'm all about doing it myself. I just want to make sure that if I spend the money, it'll last for at least 10 years with no issues. I'm not sure what well pressure is, but our CPVC is only 3/4" for what that's worth...not sure what I'd need for flow rates, but I'm sure 10gpm will suffice (not sure what the absolute for 3/4" is...)
"without issues".... how can anyone honestly tell you anything won't have "issues" for ten years? I can tell you most softeners using a Clack WS-1CS control valve probably won't have issues for ten years but may anyway. It depends on how you treat it and if the wind blows just right. :)

If you want to you can change the 3/4" CPVC to 1" CPVC or maybe 3/4" or 1" sch 40 PVC.

You can click on the link in my signature to learn more about correctly sizing a softener.

chris1044
04-28-2010, 09:02 AM
Then find someone on the internet that you can trust and buy it from him and invest the couple hours it takes to install it yourself.

Which is exactly why I'm posting here...this is the plan. It's just difficult to weed through all the sales garbage about how a softener should work for the most longevity, etc.



Never out of soft water is only important IF you need it 24/7, like rotating shift workers, flight crews or someone working very odd and random hours. .

This is a good point...I don't need it 24/7. More than anything, I want to make sure I'm sized correctly so my salt use is very efficient.


So regenerating with soft water is a benefit if you have iron.... that's wrong or there is such a small 'improvement' you can't measure it but.... iron fouls resin regardless of how the softener control valve regenerates the resin. And that is why Kinetico dealers love selling Res Up and other resin cleaners. And if that claim were true, why wouldn't the vast majority of softeners used with iron water be twin tank models? You make a valid point. However, much of my reasoning behind my post was that I don't know what type of softener is typically used with Iron water. If a single unit (sized properly) can handle 2ppm iron for 10 years or so, than I have no reason to worry - I just want to make sure this is the case.


Upflow brining, counter current regeneration, is used when the product water is used for like electronics and pharmaceutical manufacturing where hardness leakage (how much hardness is still in the softened water) is held to very small amounts in mg/l form. Kinetico is selling it as a good thing in the residential market where it is not needed.
The upflow potion makes sense to me from a logical standpoint, but I'm not familiar with how efficient standard regens are in riding the tank of sediment. Again, another reason for my posts - if a standard downflow regen won't be an issue in longevity, then I have nothing to worry about.


That is the right thing to do so it is not over sizing, it is sizing correctly. I'm going to say that my compensated hardness is 38 - this is derived from 30gpg average hardness and then 2ppm iron * 4 that your sizing chart has. Doing this and sizing it for 4 people puts me at around 80,000 grains for an 8 day regen. However, you state that I may want to regen every 4 if I have 2ppm+ iron...why the extra regen if the softener is sized large enough to handle it?



He is normal, no Kinetico is strictly a Kinetico dealer only. They all sell the same stuff I and all other independet dealers sell. The only things that Kinetico makes is the control and by pass valves and the brine pickup tube and float. Did not know this...good to know


He is BSing you about the need for an iron filter simply to make his Kinetico look as if it is a better choice. That type thing should be illegal but this is a free country so it is not illegal. But either way he flatly lied to you. And probably would have made a sale had he been honest and treated you like his brother, sister or grandmother. But then only rarely do you find that type person selling high priced Kinetico because the first lie he told was in attempting to justify their higher priced Kinetico where most of it is the same stuff he then says won't work without an iron filter in front of it. Again, didn't know this...exactly why I'm posting.



"without issues".... how can anyone honestly tell you anything won't have "issues" for ten years? I can tell you most softeners using a Clack WS-1CS control valve probably won't have issues for ten years but may anyway. It depends on how you treat it and if the wind blows just right. :). This is true with anything...a warranty is nice, but often times they find a way to say you "voided" it anyhow. Plus, as I'm a DIY on everything, I'll likely be fixing it when it breaks (which is why I want to install it - so I know how it works).


If you want to you can change the 3/4" CPVC to 1" CPVC or maybe 3/4" or 1" sch 40 PVC.

You can click on the link in my signature to learn more about correctly sizing a softener.

No issues with what I have now for plumbing...3/4 will be fine for now. Any suggestions on whether I should go with a larger tank to accomidate the iron or cut regen periods in half, and why it'd be better to do one or the other??

At the end of the day, I want a softener that is sized properly, doesn't use a ton of water to regen, and doesn't have to be filled with salt every month. Right now it needs to be sized for myself and my wife, but down the road I'll have children, which is why I used 4 people in my sizing calculations....I'd like to be able to put salt in it for 4-5 months and not need to worry about it.

Akpsdvan
04-28-2010, 09:26 AM
4 people..
A spread sheet that I have come up with shows a single 1.5 cubic and your numbers and 4 people 31 40# bags of salt a year. A twin with the same size tanks and the rest of the numbers the same shows 24 bags.
7 bags less..

Just some thoughts on it..

Gary Slusser
04-28-2010, 12:07 PM
my reasoning behind my post was that I don't know what type of softener is typically used with Iron water. If a single unit (sized properly) can handle 2ppm iron for 10 years or so, than I have no reason to worry - I just want to make sure this is the case.
The standard/normal softener is a two tank (separate resin and salt tanks) softener. Twin tanks (2 resin tanks and a slalt tank) softners are used when the business or household is using water 24/7; unless you run into a Kinetico salesman.


The upflow potion makes sense to me from a logical standpoint, but I'm not familiar with how efficient standard regens are in riding the tank of sediment. Again, another reason for my posts - if a standard downflow regen won't be an issue in longevity, then I have nothing to worry about.
Logic says that if we have the same amount of resin in the resin tank of each type of softener, and we set the salt dose at the same number of lbs used per regeneration, we have the same salt efficiency no?

So tell me how drawing the salt brine UP through the resin, counter current regnerated as with Kineticco, as opposed to DOWN through the resin, co current regneration with regular softeners, changes the salt efficiency. Isn't salt efficiency based only on how much salt is used? Yes it is, just like fuel efficiency, Wankel engine compared to a V6 or V8 or four banger right?


I'm going to say that my compensated hardness is 38 - this is derived from 30gpg average hardness and then 2ppm iron * 4 that your sizing chart has. Doing this and sizing it for 4 people puts me at around 80,000 grains for an 8 day regen. However, you state that I may want to regen every 4 if I have 2ppm+ iron...why the extra regen if the softener is sized large enough to handle it?
Would you buy a car today to haul future children AND until the kids arrive add the same weight to the car as the kids will weigh by the time they are say 10 years old? I don't think so, and you shouldn't do that with the sizing of this softener today.

You need the ability to change the settings/programming of the softener to accommodate the additional water use as you add family members, and a corectly sized softener will provide that additional capacity flexibility.


a warranty is nice, but often times they find a way to say you "voided" it anyhow. Plus, as I'm a DIY on everything, I'll likely be fixing it when it breaks (which is why I want to install it - so I know how it works).
Another thing is that they over charge you for the equipment warranty to be able to give you the warranty and chances are you will never use the warranty. If I were charging their prices I too could give you the same warranty but me, I think those people that have problems should pay their own way rather than me over charging all my customers for the warranty. The guy that doesn't maintain his softener or tinkers with it while not knowing what he is doing and breaks something, or fails to protect it from whatever that causes problems should pay, not my customer that doesn't have the problems. To me charging everyoe more is not fair to those customers that don't have problems.


No issues with what I have now for plumbing...3/4 will be fine for now. Any suggestions on whether I should go with a larger tank to accomidate the iron or cut regen periods in half, and why it'd be better to do one or the other??
Actually 3/4" CPVC has a lower flow rate than 3/4" copper or PVC because the hole in the pipe and it's fittings is a smaller ID. So it is a good idea to replace it with 3/4" PVC or 1" CPVC. Especially with the larger size softener I think you need. More water flow at a correspondingly higher psi (less friction pressure loss) gets better backwash cleaning of the resin; especially when removing iron. Cleaner resin lasts longer and does a better job of removing hardness and iron.


At the end of the day, I want a softener that is sized properly, doesn't use a ton of water to regen, and doesn't have to be filled with salt every month. Right now it needs to be sized for myself and my wife, but down the road I'll have children, which is why I used 4 people in my sizing calculations....I'd like to be able to put salt in it for 4-5 months and not need to worry about it.
Larger softeners cost more and use more water per regeneration so cutting back to an average of 4 days cuts the capacity needed in half and will reduce the size of the softener and its purchase price but, you still need to be able to increase the capacity with decent salt efficiency when kids arrive. And you always need the constant SFR gpm to be higher than the peak demand flow rate gpm of the house as to how you guys use water.

If you fill the salt tank you will eventually run the softener out of salt. Checking it weekly and adding a bag more frequently is the best way. I cover that in the instructions I send all softener customers.

And we now have AKpsdvan saying a twin tank will use less salt, which it won't.

So ask him to prove his claim.

Bob999
04-28-2010, 12:11 PM
I also believe twin resin tank softeners use less salt when properly set up.

All other things equal the reason twin softeners use less salt is that no reserve (which on average leads to unused capacity) is nessary to account for the time between reaching programmed capacity and the time of regeneration .

Gary Slusser
04-28-2010, 12:19 PM
I also believe twin resin tank softeners use less salt when properly set up.

All other things equal the reason twin softeners use less salt is that no reserve (which on average leads to unused capacity) is nessary to account for the time between reaching programmed capacity and the time of regeneration .
Yet all twin tank softeners use salt to create the capacity they use to soften the water that is used during regeneration of the other tank with softened water.

So if each resin tank of the two different type softenrs have the same volume of the same type of resin in them, and both softerners have the same number of lbs of salt being used to regenrate with, don't both softeners have the same salt efficiency?

Bob999
04-28-2010, 12:20 PM
I share your thinking that up flow regeneration is more efficient, or at least has the potential to be more efficient, than down flow regeneration. The reason is that the brine moves directly into the resin rather than having to move down through the 18" or so of water at the top of the tank --with resulting dilution of the brine--that happens with down flow regeneration.

That said down flow regeneration is the most widely used approach in the US and most internet Sellers of softeners don't even list up flow regenerating softeners on their sales pages. I am a firm believer of staying in the mainstream with equipment so while I think up flow regeneration has some technical advantages I don't recommend.

Gary Slusser
04-28-2010, 12:31 PM
I share your thinking that up flow regeneration is more efficient, or at least has the potential to be more efficient, than down flow regeneration. The reason is that the brine moves directly into the resin rather than having to move down through the 18" or so of water at the top of the tank --with resulting dilution of the brine--that happens with down flow regeneration.

That said down flow regeneration is the most widely used approach in the US and most internet Sellers of softeners don't even list up flow regenerating softeners on their sales pages. I am a firm believer of staying in the mainstream with equipment so while I think up flow regeneration has some technical advantages I don't recommend.
Dilution is caused by the slow rinse water flow that creates the vacuum needed to suck/lift heavy brine water into the resin bed and it is diluted more because of the water in the tank. Which is the same as down flow and the water above the resin.

UPflow brining's benefit is to more fully regenerate the resin in the bottom of the column of resin (bottom of the tank) which the water goes through last on it's way to being used, it is done that way to limit/control leakage of hardness for certain manufacturing requirements, not to save salt/increaqse salt efficiency.

If UPflow is said to be good, you could likewise say, which no one does, that downflow brining treats the water at the top of the column of resin and prevents used capacity in the lower part of the cloumn of resin.

And potential doesn't count, you get what you get.

Akpsdvan
04-28-2010, 12:32 PM
Up Flow regeneration will work when the resin bed stays Packed.. even with the up flow brine action will unpack the resin bed and let brine get past resin with out full recharging taking place.

Even if there is what is called an upper basket in the softener that is not enough to keep the resin bed from unpacking while in brine rinse mode.

The Water Boss and Water Max are the only ones that I know of that have in the tank a screen on top and bottom of the resin to hold it in place while the brine/rinse is going on , thus keeping the resin bed packed.

Bob999
04-28-2010, 01:18 PM
Here are 3 web sites that sell both a variety of softeners and have very good prices. I have no connection with any of these sites and am providing the addresses for your information.

http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php (http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php)

http://www.qualitywaterforless.com/ (http://www.qualitywaterforless.com/)

http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/default.asp (http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/default.asp)

Gary Slusser
04-28-2010, 03:02 PM
Here are 3 web sites that sell both a variety of softeners and have very good prices. I have no connection with any of these sites and am providing the addresses for your information.

http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php (http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php)

http://www.qualitywaterforless.com/ (http://www.qualitywaterforless.com/)

http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/default.asp (http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/default.asp)
Bob, none of those sites sell the CS version.

One site of the three doesn't sell anything with a Clack WS-1 on it.

All three use a chart for sizing that is useless and causes the customer to use the max salt dose lbs for the cuft volume of resin and the K of capacity they suggest. That gives their customers very poor salt efficiency.

IIRC only one of the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE tells their customer how to get into the dealer's side of the programming where 98% of all the programming is done. That means the customer uses the default settigs which do not match the K of capacity on their sizing chart.

One of the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE has higher prices than my price for the same size but they do not include everything that I do.

The other one that sells the Clack WS-1 EE has a lower price for the same size but again, they too do not inlude everything that I do.

If you were trying to help the OP you've failed IMO.

Here is a link to one of those sites' sizing chart. IIRC all three use the same chart; I know that the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE do.

http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/Articles.asp?ID=127

chris1044
04-28-2010, 04:10 PM
Ok,

So back on track after that slight derailment....

A 1.5 cu ft (60k grain) resin tank should work for my situation, and will likely have to regenerate every 4 days. Assuming info in this thread is correct, I'll go through roughly 31 bags of salt a year with 4 people in the home (which won't be for a few years).

What can one do to make the whole system more efficient to use less salt? Perhaps I'm asking too many questions, but I'd like to know how all this works since I'm spending some decent amounts of $$. After all that talk about dilution/resin beds being packed/twin tanks being pointless for normal home use (right?) I'm more confused than I was last night about this....

To recap, I want an efficient softener that regens as little as possible. Two people using it right now, will expand to four 5 years down the road. Water hardness of 30, 2ppm iron, 3/4" CPVC inlet/main feed from well pump to softener (and I'm going to try and find flow rate at gal/min later tonite).


Thanks for the responses thus far...very appreciated!

Bob999
04-28-2010, 04:18 PM
Bob, none of those sites sell the CS version.

One site of the three doesn't sell anything with a Clack WS-1 on it.
True. I am not aware that the poster has decided on a particular brand or model of control head. I personally think the EE version is every bit as good as the CS version of the Clack valve.

All three use a chart for sizing that is useless and causes the customer to use the max salt dose lbs for the cuft volume of resin and the K of capacity they suggest. That gives their customers very poor salt efficiency.

Good information is available elsewhere. I posted the sites as price comparisons.

IIRC only one of the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE tells their customer how to get into the dealer's side of the programming where 98% of all the programming is done. That means the customer uses the default settigs which do not match the K of capacity on their sizing chart.

Manuals with all that information are available on the Clack website.

One of the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE has higher prices than my price for the same size but they do not include everything that I do.

Well if you include everything they do and more you should compare very favorably if someone is doing price comparisons. Last time I looked your website was very sparse in listing what you sell for what price.



The other one that sells the Clack WS-1 EE has a lower price for the same size but again, they too do not inlude everything that I do.

If you were trying to help the OP you've failed IMO.

I was trying to provide the OP with information. Not sell him a softener. I think I succeeded in providing information. It is up to the reader to decide what to do with it.

Here is a link to one of those sites' sizing chart. IIRC all three use the same chart; I know that the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE do.

http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/Articles.asp?ID=127

I have posted responses above.

Bob999
04-28-2010, 04:20 PM
A 1.5 cu ft (60k grain) resin tank should work for my situation, !

A 1.5 ft3 softener is generally referred to as 45k or 48k grains. A 60k softener is 2 ft3.

Bob999
04-28-2010, 04:32 PM
What can one do to make the whole system more efficient to use less salt? Perhaps I'm asking too many questions, but I'd like to know how all this works since I'm spending some decent amounts of $$. After all that talk about dilution/resin beds being packed/twin tanks being pointless for normal home use (right?) I'm more confused than I was last night about this....

To recap, I want an efficient softener that regens as little as possible. Two people using it right now, will expand to four 5 years down the road. Water hardness of 30, 2ppm iron, 3/4" CPVC inlet/main feed from well pump to softener (and I'm going to try and find flow rate at gal/min later tonite).


Thanks for the responses thus far...very appreciated!

In order to maintain the resin and provide long life regular regeneration is essential. With iron I recommend regeneration every 4 days. If you accept that as a given then there are two things you can do to get high salt efficiency:

1. Use a more salt efficient resin--Purolite SST-60;
2. Size the quantity of resin so that you are using only a fraction of the potential maximum capacity

Here is a link to technical information on Purolite SST-60 risin:

http://www.caitechnologies.com/images/PDFs/specs/SST60.pdf

If you look at page 4 you will see that SST-60 resin is more salt efficient than regular resin and that higher salt efficiency is obtained at lower salt dose--but lower salt dose regenerates a smaller fraction of the maximum potential capacity of the resin so a larger quantity of resin is needed if regeneration is done every 4 days. If 5 lbs/ft3 of resin salt dose is used the efficiency is 4000 grains per pound of salt with SST-60. On the other hand if 15 lbs/ft3 of resin is used the efficiency is 2073 grains per lb of salt with SST-60.

chris1044
04-28-2010, 05:24 PM
In order to maintain the resin and provide long life regular regeneration is essential. With iron I recommend regeneration every 4 days. If you accept that as a given then there are two things you can do to get high salt efficiency:

1. Use a more salt efficient resin--Purolite SST-60;
2. Size the quantity of resin so that you are using only a fraction of the potential maximum capacity


Here is a link to technical information on Purolite SST-60 risin:

http://www.caitechnologies.com/images/PDFs/specs/SST60.pdf

If you look at page 4 you will see that SST-60 resin is more salt efficient than regular resin and that higher salt efficiency is obtained at lower salt dose--but lower salt dose regenerates a smaller fraction of the maximum potential capacity of the resin so a larger quantity of resin is needed if regeneration is done every 4 days. If 5 lbs/ft3 of resin salt dose is used the efficiency is 4000 grains per pound of salt with SST-60. On the other hand if 15 lbs/ft3 of resin is used the efficiency is 2073 grains per lb of salt with SST-60.

I think the general concensus from everyone is with the iron I have regen every 4 days. That's fine - I'd rather regen and have it last then skimp to save salt/water. That said, the data you linked does show that the Purolite SST-60 is more efficient - which softeners have this resin?

Akpsdvan
04-28-2010, 05:40 PM
Most likely when ordering any system one might have a choice of resin... if not then find some a company that would let you make that choice, it might cost a little more but that would be your call.

Bob999
04-28-2010, 06:00 PM
I think the general concensus from everyone is with the iron I have regen every 4 days. That's fine - I'd rather regen and have it last then skimp to save salt/water. That said, the data you linked does show that the Purolite SST-60 is more efficient - which softeners have this resin?

Here is a link to one company that lists SST-60 resin as an option:

http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php

Virtually any company selling water softeners should be able to provide it upon request.

Gary Slusser
04-28-2010, 10:49 PM
True. I am not aware that the poster has decided on a particular brand or model of control head. I personally think the EE version is every bit as good as the CS version of the Clack valve.

Last time I looked your website was very sparse in listing what you sell for what price.
Yes he has said a Clack WS-1 CS.

My 6+ years experience with the Clack WS-1 is that the CS version is a much better choice for a DIYer.

What is your experience with those two different versions?

Gary Slusser
04-28-2010, 11:14 PM
I think the general concensus from everyone is with the iron I have regen every 4 days. That's fine - I'd rather regen and have it last then skimp to save salt/water. That said, the data you linked does show that the Purolite SST-60 is more efficient - which softeners have this resin?
I do not agree with 4 day regeneration unless the size of the softner dictates it. If you have IRB and enough to have to treat it, the iron will be removed and the softener will not have to deal with it. So you would need 26K for an 8 day service run. With the iron 34K. A 2.0 cuft covers that and has the flexibility for a family of 4 and gives you 13 gpm constant SFR. If the 13 gpm is not high enough, you have to go to a 2.5 cuft or larger. Although any dealer can sell SST-60 (I do with 4-5 ppm or more iron), you don't need SST-60 or fine mesh resin with their increased cost and you won't need a Turbulator or a Res Up feeder etc.. If you used a Turbulator you can't have a gravel underbed and gravel with your 2 ppm of iron is a better choice.

With iron you don't want to try to get higher capacity or salt efficiency by buying SST-60 resin and even if you got both, you'll never recover the additional cost.

chris1044
04-29-2010, 06:41 AM
I do not agree with 4 day regeneration unless the size of the softner dictates it. If you have IRB and enough to have to treat it, the iron will be removed and the softener will not have to deal with it. So you would need 26K for an 8 day service run. With the iron 34K. A 2.0 cuft covers that and has the flexibility for a family of 4 and gives you 13 gpm constant SFR. If the 13 gpm is not high enough, you have to go to a 2.5 cuft or larger. Although any dealer can sell SST-60 (I do with 4-5 ppm or more iron), you don't need SST-60 or fine mesh resin with their increased cost and you won't need a Turbulator or a Res Up feeder etc.. If you used a Turbulator you can't have a gravel underbed and gravel with your 2 ppm of iron is a better choice.

With iron you don't want to try to get higher capacity or salt efficiency by buying SST-60 resin and even if you got both, you'll never recover the additional cost.

I'm lost now....so you're saying I only need 26k grain capacity for an 8 day regen? 34k capacity to accomidate for the iron? I was thinking I'd need something in the neighborhood of 60k - was actually considering a single tank 60k model with a clack WS-1....I don't think I'll need anything over a 13gpm flow rate. The home has 3/4" cpvc, and I don't plan to redo everything any time soon; the inlet line may increase to 1" to assist with back flushing the unit, but after the softener it's going to stay the 3/4" that's in the home now...

Bob999
04-29-2010, 06:46 AM
Yes he has said a Clack WS-1 CS.



I went back and reviewed the thread and was unable to find anyplace that the OP has discussed the Clack WS -1 CS in any post.

Wally Hays
04-29-2010, 07:29 AM
Bob, I thionk it was me that mentioned the WS-1 way back on the first page. I also come up with 80,000

Bob999
04-29-2010, 07:53 AM
If you have IRB and enough to have to treat it, the iron will be removed and the softener will not have to deal with it.

I think that Chris has concluded that he does not have iron reducing bacteria. It is unclear why you are making this point.

"The culligan man said iron bacteria as opposed to sulfur, but the wolverine man said it was sulfur; I'll be sure to have a third opinion pitched to me tomorrow."

"Tonite the Kinetico salesman came out.... He said our hardness was at 27 gpg, which is inline with what the culligan man said at 25. I'm calling it a wash between all three and going to say it's 30 gpg, so I'm oversized as opposed to undersized. He also said my iron was at 2ppm."

"I'm going to say that my compensated hardness is 38 - this is derived from 30gpg average hardness and then 2ppm iron * 4 "

chris1044
04-29-2010, 08:31 AM
I think that Chris has concluded that he does not have iron reducing bacteria. It is unclear why you are making this point.

"The culligan man said iron bacteria as opposed to sulfur, but the wolverine man said it was sulfur; I'll be sure to have a third opinion pitched to me tomorrow."

"Tonite the Kinetico salesman came out.... He said our hardness was at 27 gpg, which is inline with what the culligan man said at 25. I'm calling it a wash between all three and going to say it's 30 gpg, so I'm oversized as opposed to undersized. He also said my iron was at 2ppm."

"I'm going to say that my compensated hardness is 38 - this is derived from 30gpg average hardness and then 2ppm iron * 4 "

As I have...The water is approximatley 30gpg hardness. It has 2ppm iron in it, with a little bit of "iron" smell. It does not smell like sulfur, nor did any of the analysis detect hydrosulfuric gas (or whatever the chem name is that causes rotten egg smell). Furthermore, there isn't any slime build up anywhere, but there is iron build up in the toilet tanks (and in the bowls if they go uncleaned long enough). I have no arsenic, little nitrates, and a fairly high disolves solid count at somewhere around 350-400.

Softenere will be used for 2 people for the next 3-5 years, then children will be in the picture. The home has 2.5 baths, a standard washer/laundry room sink, and standard kitchen items. Dishwasher and fridge take water, dishwasher is high efficiency as its new.

So, based off the above information, what would the best recommendation for someone with a 1000-1200 budget range be? I'm simply looking for something that will last more than 5 years without hassle, and doesn't use a ton of salt. If I wanted something I had to fix every 3-4 years, I'd buy a kenmore....in doing research on this, I'm hoping to get 10+ years of hassle free use out of the system.

Wally Hays
04-29-2010, 09:35 AM
Clack WS-1 metered or a Fleck 5600 unmetered. God, stay away from Big box store crap. You will not spend much money but you will do it often.

Bob999
04-29-2010, 09:49 AM
As I have...The water is approximatley 30gpg hardness. It has 2ppm iron in it, with a little bit of "iron" smell. It does not smell like sulfur, nor did any of the analysis detect hydrosulfuric gas (or whatever the chem name is that causes rotten egg smell). Furthermore, there isn't any slime build up anywhere, but there is iron build up in the toilet tanks (and in the bowls if they go uncleaned long enough). I have no arsenic, little nitrates, and a fairly high disolves solid count at somewhere around 350-400.

Softenere will be used for 2 people for the next 3-5 years, then children will be in the picture. The home has 2.5 baths, a standard washer/laundry room sink, and standard kitchen items. Dishwasher and fridge take water, dishwasher is high efficiency as its new.

So, based off the above information, what would the best recommendation for someone with a 1000-1200 budget range be? I'm simply looking for something that will last more than 5 years without hassle, and doesn't use a ton of salt. If I wanted something I had to fix every 3-4 years, I'd buy a kenmore....in doing research on this, I'm hoping to get 10+ years of hassle free use out of the system.

A system with either a Fleck of Clack valve can be expected to provide long term trouble free service (not guaranteed as noted in other posts but I believe one of these offers the best chance of achieving your goals).

I will add to what I posted previously--use of SST-60 resin and sizing the amount of resin to ensure regeneration is only a fraction of max capacity--you could chose a twin tank system to further increase salt efficiency. As a practical matter you will be limited to a Fleck valve if you go with a twin in your stated price range.

If you go with a single tank system then either a Fleck or Clack valve should meet your stated requirements. I consider the Fleck 7000 and the Clack WS-1 basically comparable (not identical) and because most on line dealers sell the Fleck for about $40 less I would go with the Fleck 7000 if using a single tank system. Such a system can be purchased online with 1.5 ft3 of SST-60 resin for less than $700 delivered. Alternatively, you could purchase a 1.5 ft3/tank Fleck 9100 Twin with SST-60 resin from an online dealer for about $1200 delivered.

chris1044
04-29-2010, 11:16 AM
If you go with a single tank system then either a Fleck or Clack valve should meet your stated requirements. I consider the Fleck 7000 and the Clack WS-1 basically comparable (not identical) and because most on line dealers sell the Fleck for about $40 less I would go with the Fleck 7000 if using a single tank system. Such a system can be purchased online with 1.5 ft3 of SST-60 resin for less than $700 delivered. Alternatively, you could purchase a 1.5 ft3/tank Fleck 9100 Twin with SST-60 resin from an online dealer for about $1200 delivered.


Is there really any benifit for a twin tank set up in my situation? Longevity? I don't need water 24/7, and because of that, I can't see any real reason to upgrade. Additionally, if I get different resin, how does one go about changing that himself...remember, I'm a noob here....any qualms with an Fleck 7000 SXT?

Gary Slusser
04-29-2010, 11:20 AM
I'm lost now....so you're saying I only need 26k grain capacity for an 8 day regen? 34k capacity to accomidate for the iron? I was thinking I'd need something in the neighborhood of 60k - was actually considering a single tank 60k model with a clack WS-1....I don't think I'll need anything over a 13gpm flow rate. The home has 3/4" cpvc, and I don't plan to redo everything any time soon; the inlet line may increase to 1" to assist with back flushing the unit, but after the softener it's going to stay the 3/4" that's in the home now...
You need 26K of regenerated capacity without the iron and 34K with the iron, to go on average 8 days between regenerations based on gallons and calendar override. Not as you are thinking a 26K softener.

To do that yes, you will need a 2.0 cuft (64K as most guys incorrectly call them). Have you been to my sizing and calculator pages on my web site? All this is exlained there.

You would use 8 lbs and 10.5 lbs for the 26K or 34K and I would tell you how to use a comon product to clean the iron/rust out of the resin bedand control valve periodically. I've been sizing softeners on iron of up to 5 ppm this way for 20+ years, using regular mesh resin.

You don't need to pay a premium price for 2.0 cuft of SST-60 or a Turbulator distributor tube and give up a gravel underbed. My delivered price is under $850 including 50' of drain line, the Clack wrench and a test kit with a result of hard or soft water based on 0-1 gpg of hardness. Plus you get me, my instructions and free phone support. You have to call me to order it because it is not on my dinky little web site because I don't like guys buying until they talk to me and anyone ordering on my site gets an email saying I am holding the order until we talk. That's so they don't buy something they don't need or is too small for their needs. And if they disagree, I refund their money and they can go somewhere else and buy whatever.

Bob999, in a previous post Chris has said; If a softener with a Clack WS1 will handle the iron, then I'm all about doing it myself. Here he is saying: was actually considering a single tank 60k model with a clack WS-1.

Bob999
04-29-2010, 11:45 AM
I think there is agreement that there is iron and I was under the impression that Gary Slusser recommended regeneration at 4 day intervals with 2 ppm iron. Now he seems to be saying 8 day regeneration with iron.

What ever Gary's view is my view is that you would be better served regenerating at 4 day intervals with your iron.

As to your question about needing a twin tank system--no you do not need it. I listed it because you at one point said you wanted the most salt efficient system and a twin tank system would marginally increase the salt efficiency. As to SST-60 resin--it is not necessary either but it is a better resin with iron and it gives better salt efficiency--which you expressed an interest in.

Most water softeners purchased from online sources are actually shipped by the same wholesaler--Nelson Corp with shipping points at three locations around the country. The standard package ships the head, tank(s) and resin separately and includes a funnel for the purchaser to load the resin in the tank.

So to recap if you want to minimize your initial investment a 1.5 cubic foot unit that is set up to regenerate every 4 days with a Fleck 7000 head and standard resin purchased from an on line supplier will, in my opinion, meet your needs and provide a system that can reasonably be expected to provide long and trouble free service. If you are interested in improving salt efficiency over the standard package then I recommend SST-60 resin.

Gary Slusser
04-29-2010, 12:37 PM
I will add to what I posted previously--use of SST-60 resin and sizing the amount of resin to ensure regeneration is only a fraction of max capacity--you could chose a twin tank system to further increase salt efficiency. As a practical matter you will be limited to a Fleck valve if you go with a twin in your stated price range.
Please state the total volume of salt used in lbs on an 8 day basis in the twin tank type sofftener that you suggest would get better salt efficiency.

And compare it to my 8 or 10.5 lbs in my two tank softener that you call a single tank.

Also are you aware of the twin Clack set up? How about the Fleck TwinFlo 100e and its all but unique feature of purging the tank in standby before it goes online to get rid of the stagnant water in it? A Clack twin does that too. No other twin control valve does; including Kinetico.


I consider the Fleck 7000 and the Clack WS-1 basically comparable (not identical) and because most on line dealers sell the Fleck for about $40 less I would go with the Fleck 7000 if using a single tank system.
Obviously you have not torn the two apart as if you had to repair the seals and piston Bob or you wouldn't be suggesting the 7000 to a DIYer or saying that it is comparable to the Clack WS-1. Plus there are features the 7000 does not have that the Clack WS-1 does have; especially the CS version of the Clack WS-1. Can you list those features or are you not aware of them?

Bob999
04-29-2010, 12:50 PM
Also are you aware of the twin Clack set up? How about the Fleck TwinFlo 100e and its all but unique feature of purging the tank in standby before it goes online to get rid of the stagnant water in it? A Clack twin does that too. No other twin control valve does; including Kinetico.



Yes I am aware of the twin Clack set up. I don't believe it meets Chris's price specification.

I don't believe the Fleck TwinFlo 100e is currently being sold. I believe the current version of that valve is the TwinFlo SXT. But what is your point. I have not found stagnate water to be a problem with regeneration every 4 days so I don't see much value in that feature.

Gary Slusser
04-29-2010, 12:59 PM
I think there is agreement that there is iron and I was under the impression that Gary Slusser recommended regeneration at 4 day intervals with 2 ppm iron. Now he seems to be saying 8 day regeneration with iron.
That's because I say on my calculator page "you may" want to regnerate on a 4 day basis; that's to go with a smaller softener to keep cost down Bob and it depends on the volume of iron and how many people in the household.

As you know I also say I have been treating up to 5 ppm of iron with regular mesh resin without problems for 20+ years if the person will follow my resin cleaning instructions. BTW, I just sold a softener on 3 ppm of iron with 25 gpg hardness for a family of 5 as I was typing my last reply to you. He will use 45K and 14 lbs with 1216 gals on an average of 8 days between regenerations.


What ever Gary's view is my view is that you would be better served regenerating at 4 day intervals with your iron.
Why do you suggest 4 days Bob, is it because you've read otrhers saying 4 days?


Most water softeners purchased from online sources are actually shipped by the same wholesaler--Nelson Corp with shipping points at three locations around the country. The standard package ships the head, tank(s) and resin separately and includes a funnel for the purchaser to load the resin in the tank.
Well not really but how do you know that Bob, why is it important to Chris IYO and where do you get that information from?

Akpsdvan
04-29-2010, 04:29 PM
Please state the total volume of salt used in lbs on an 8 day basis in the twin tank type sofftener that you suggest would get better salt efficiency.

And compare it to my 8 or 10.5 lbs in my two tank softener that you call a single tank.

Also are you aware of the twin Clack set up? How about the Fleck TwinFlo 100e and its all but unique feature of purging the tank in standby before it goes online to get rid of the stagnant water in it? A Clack twin does that too. No other twin control valve does; including Kinetico.


Obviously you have not torn the two apart as if you had to repair the seals and piston Bob or you wouldn't be suggesting the 7000 to a DIYer or saying that it is comparable to the Clack WS-1. Plus there are features the 7000 does not have that the Clack WS-1 does have; especially the CS version of the Clack WS-1. Can you list those features or are you not aware of them?

Twin flow or 8500 is going to be going bye bye.... it has never really been a good one.. the 9000 or the 9100 and the big brother of 9500 are much better valves.

And just what is the Clack Twin?

chris1044
04-30-2010, 11:07 AM
Bob, you have a PM...

Bob999
05-01-2010, 06:06 AM
Chris,

This website sells the Fleck 7000 and offers SST-60 resin and was the basis for my price comment:

http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/...me.php?cat=632 (http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=632)

As to a prefilter--unless you get significant amounts of sand or your water is visibly dirty I don't recommend a prefilter. The reason is that it is not really necessary--the regular regeneration process of the softener clears small amounts of dirt just fine--and human nature is to forget to maintain such filters and that can cause significant problems if the filter loads up and reduces flow--it can cause the backwash of the softener to be inadequate because of low water pressure and that can cause the resin to fail with replacement of the resin as the only alternative.

chris1044
05-03-2010, 08:30 AM
Here's another question for you...my inlet line on the plumbing is 3/4" CPVC. The Fleck 7000 has a 1" inlet flow valve. Obviously I could redo my inlet line from the well bladder to the softener as 1", but do you know of any 3/4" to 1" adapters for CPVC? If not, any thoughts on the SXT valves? Some appear to be available in a 3/4" inlet....

Also, what about a media guard? Needed or not....

Wally Hays
05-03-2010, 08:51 AM
Yes, they make a 1 x 3/4 cpvc reducing coupling or you could use a brass 1 x 3/4 bushing at the valve head. Don't use galvanized

chris1044
05-04-2010, 08:31 AM
Yes, they make a 1 x 3/4 cpvc reducing coupling or you could use a brass 1 x 3/4 bushing at the valve head. Don't use galvanized

So I'm positive I'm going with a fleck 7000 SXT, 64k grain capacity. I estimate I'll only need 48k, but I want efficiency and I don't want to be undersized...negatives in doing this?

I found some with a "bypass" available at 3/4"....this the same as inlet/outlet connections?

Also, what are the thoughts on the turbulator? And what about C-239 resin vs. the SST-60...opinions on that?

All said and done I should have less than 900 into it installed and filled, so I think I'll be fairly happy.

Akpsdvan
05-04-2010, 10:10 AM
So I'm positive I'm going with a fleck 7000 SXT, 64k grain capacity. I estimate I'll only need 48k, but I want efficiency and I don't want to be undersized...negatives in doing this?

I found some with a "bypass" available at 3/4"....this the same as inlet/outlet connections?

Also, what are the thoughts on the turbulator? And what about C-239 resin vs. the SST-60...opinions on that?

All said and done I should have less than 900 into it installed and filled, so I think I'll be fairly happy.

The Bypass on the 7000 is different than the 2510 or 5600.. but there are some 3 or 4 different fittings that the bypass can take,, There should be one that is 1" and it is either male thread or female thread.. find out which one and you can make the change to the CPVC that you have.

Bob999
05-04-2010, 12:48 PM
So I'm positive I'm going with a fleck 7000 SXT, 64k grain capacity. I estimate I'll only need 48k, but I want efficiency and I don't want to be undersized...negatives in doing this?

I found some with a "bypass" available at 3/4"....this the same as inlet/outlet connections?

Also, what are the thoughts on the turbulator? And what about C-239 resin vs. the SST-60...opinions on that?

All said and done I should have less than 900 into it installed and filled, so I think I'll be fairly happy.

Look at page 26 of the Fleck 7000 manual for a list of all the different connections that are available for the bypass. I suggest you get the 1" threaded (NPT) and then use a brass or stainless steel coupling to provide a female threaded connector that the CPVC can connect to.

C-249 is a brand name "high capacity resin". For your installation with iron the SST-60 is a superior resin.

I like turbulators with well water with iron. Not absolutely necessary but nice to have in my view.

I don't recommend going to the 2 cubic foot softener if you intend to regenerate every 4 days as I believe you should. The reason is the salt dose for the estimated usage becomes somewhat low for your iron content. To put it differently with iron you don't want to go to very low salt doses (measured in lbs per cubic foot of resin) and if you fix the regeneration interval at 4 days then with your number of people/estimated water use the computed salt dose gets a bit low. Additionally you don't need a 2 cubic foot softener--SST-60 resin supports about 60% higher flow rates with less leakage than standard resin so where a standard 1.5 cubic foot softener would provide good service up to 12 gpm flow rates the SST-60 will provide good service to substantially higher flow rates.

chris1044
05-05-2010, 03:53 AM
Look at page 26 of the Fleck 7000 manual for a list of all the different connections that are available for the bypass. I suggest you get the 1" threaded (NPT) and then use a brass or stainless steel coupling to provide a female threaded connector that the CPVC can connect to.

C-249 is a brand name "high capacity resin". For your installation with iron the SST-60 is a superior resin.

I like turbulators with well water with iron. Not absolutely necessary but nice to have in my view.

I don't recommend going to the 2 cubic foot softener if you intend to regenerate every 4 days as I believe you should. The reason is the salt dose for the estimated usage becomes somewhat low for your iron content. To put it differently with iron you don't want to go to very low salt doses (measured in lbs per cubic foot of resin) and if you fix the regeneration interval at 4 days then with your number of people/estimated water use the computed salt dose gets a bit low. Additionally you don't need a 2 cubic foot softener--SST-60 resin supports about 60% higher flow rates with less leakage than standard resin so where a standard 1.5 cubic foot softener would provide good service up to 12 gpm flow rates the SST-60 will provide good service to substantially higher flow rates.

Excellent...thanks for the response Bob! I had a hunch that going to big isn't necessarily a good thing here. 1.5 Cu Ft Fleck 7000, SST resin, w/turbulator is what I'm going to be purchasing. I'm going to look into various connections avail out there today...will post pics/updates after I get it in.

Thanks again,
Chris

Gary Slusser
05-05-2010, 03:45 PM
Chris.... the constant SFR gpm of a 1.5 cuft softener is 12 gpm regardless of the type of resin, if your peak demand is greater, then the volume of resin can not remove all the hardness.

You do not need a Turbualtor with 2 ppm of iron but with one you can't have a gravel underbed. And a gravel underbed allows proper backwashing and regneration of all the resin in the tank the same as a Turbulator.

You also don't need SST-60 resin and you should not expect better efficiency or a higher capacity per lb of salt used etc..

chris1044
05-05-2010, 05:50 PM
Chris.... the constant SFR gpm of a 1.5 cuft softener is 12 gpm regardless of the type of resin, if your peak demand is greater, then the volume of resin can not remove all the hardness.

You do not need a Turbualtor with 2 ppm of iron but with one you can't have a gravel underbed. And a gravel underbed allows proper backwashing and regneration of all the resin in the tank the same as a Turbulator.

You also don't need SST-60 resin and you should not expect better efficiency or a higher capacity per lb of salt used etc..

Numero uno: I don't think my SFR GMP is greater than 12gpm....I have 3/4" CPVC through the home. Its 2.5 bath...are you saying I need a larger softener?

Numero two: I know i don't need a turbulator...but if it helps, why not. Gravel underbed? This is the first I suppose I've heard that you have to have one to properly backwash...care to explain?

I know I dont need SST-60 resin either, but the data doesn't lie, it seems more efficient based of the data I've read...what are the other options? C-239?

I'm an engineer, so I'd like full explanations on why I don't need things...thus far, really bob has been the most helpful in explaining why those things would be good to have....you on the other hand, seem as though you're trying to make a sale...

Akpsdvan
05-05-2010, 07:41 PM
My sheets say that a 1.5 cubic has a standard flow rate of 9gpm and peak of 13gpm... so a 1.5 will work for your size house and pipes.

Turbos and gravel do not go together.. either use a turbo or use the standard gravel under bed...

C-249 from Sybron is standard softener resin, C-266 is the fine..
C-249 has lower pressure drop
C-266 has higher pressure drop
C-249 has lower grain capacity per lbs of salt
C-266 has higher grain capacity per lbs of salt
Normal home the differnces are small.. Commercial the difference can be big.

C-249 has been around for years and is bullet proof... it is one of if not the best resin for home use.

You have been doing lots of reading of the information that is out there on types of valves, resin and that is making you a better buyer.

Wally Hays
05-06-2010, 03:41 AM
Turbulator, gravel, your choice.

SST60 does give better performance. More money though. In your case, I would go with it.

You don't need anything bigger.

Gary Slusser
05-06-2010, 09:40 AM
Numero uno: I don't think my SFR GMP is greater than 12gpm....I have 3/4" CPVC through the home. Its 2.5 bath...are you saying I need a larger softener?
I'm not sure, I can't recall what all has been said in this thread and won't take the time to go look it up right now. But it depends on what your peak demand is and your guessing it isn't over 12 gpm could be a mistake on your part. And now we have AKpsdvan saying 9-13 gpm for a 1.5 cuft. You should be asking yourself how much experience do you and Bob have in sizing a softener for houses with any number of bathrooms? I've been doing it for many years for actual customers. IMO you and Bob haven't. IIRC I have told you to replace the 3/4" CPVC.


Numero two: I know i don't need a turbulator...but if it helps, why not. Gravel underbed? This is the first I suppose I've heard that you have to have one to properly backwash...care to explain?
See now when someone says "but if it helps" I think they are guessing and don't know for sure and that's why I replied to you (again) but you don't see it as helpful and I'll bet that others reading this now and long into the future may disagree with you.

There are disadvantages with the use of a Turbulator distributor tube. One is no gravel underbed. Another is you can not use fine mesh resin. Another is that the softener will use more water for regeneration because to get the Turbulator to work correctly you need a larger gpm DLFC. There are many advantages to a gravel underbed and no disadvantages except for the small $10-15 cost of one.


I know I don't need SST-60 resin either, but the data doesn't lie, it seems more efficient based of the data I've read...what are the other options? C-239?
"It seems..." I agree but in the real world as opposed to a test bed set of data on Purolite's site, you don't gain what the data seems to say you could. And if you size and program correctly to start with with the lowest cost regular mesh resin, you don't need slightly higher efficiencies of SST or C-249 that I used for about 18 years until I learned better, or to pay roughly $100 more per cuft for SST and never recover any of that extra expense. Or $40 more per cuft for C-249 to get a max of only 200 grains more capacity per cuft.


I'm an engineer, so I'd like full explanations on why I don't need things...thus far, really bob has been the most helpful in explaining why those things would be good to have....you on the other hand, seem as though you're trying to make a sale...
Yes I am a lowly softener salesman. And I sell equipment to many people that ask questions in forums. Do you see any of them coming back to any forum anywhere and complaining that the equipment they bought from me didn't deliver what I told them it would? Google and I can't find any so you might think about that a bit before you discount what I'm telling you.

As to Bob being helpful, he is dazzling you with engineer speak but no one that leads you into something that isn't needed or that will cause a failure of equipment is helpful in the end but...

If I were the type of salesman you, Bob and AKpsdvan etc. may be thinking I am, why would I not be agreeing with them and attempting to sell you what those folks are suggesting is best for you?

Do you notice that Bob usually doesn't mention any of the disadvantages of the things he suggests you buy? Including the Fleck 7000? I.E. another potential disadvantage of a Turbulator is excessive wear, bead breakage, of the resin. He probably hasn't read that on any spec sheet yet but when he checks it out, he'll be repeating what I say.

Question; Who do you know that should know more about softeners than a dealer (lowly salesman to you I guess) with all but a quarter century of experience in sizing selling and servicing many brands of control valves and 13 years of posting answers all over the internet (since 2002 here) to questions like yours and 7 years of internet sales from Alaska all across Canada and the US to Purto Rico where anyone with a problem with equipment they bought from me can tell everyone that will read the posts?

To check that out do a Goggle search for "Gary Slusser" with the "" and see if you can find dissatisified customers.

Wally Hays
05-06-2010, 11:31 AM
I have sold, serviced and installed equipment for better than 30 years now. I've seen products come and go. If you talk to the manufacturers reps from just about any company they will all to a tee give you a handfull of reasons why the equipment they sell is better than the other guy's. It's the nature of the business. If there was one manufacturer, and only a couple of choices of equipment that would serve all needs then the world would be a much easier place to do business in. But like any product, there are dozens of manufacturers and dozens of products. It's making the wise choice that matters in the end. That choice will always be a balance between quality, price and availability. We can argue till the cows come home about proper sizing, up flow, down flow, turbulator, gravel bed and a host of other issues but in the end most of the products out there are going to do what they claim to do. Those of us that sell, service and install will always have a bias toward the equipment and methods that we feel comfortable with. If everyone agreed on these things there would be no need for forums, blogs or anyone elses opinions at all. I can't say I have always agreed with the opinions on this (and many other) forums but I do know that nobody here is intentionaly trying to steer you in the wrong direction.

Bob999
05-06-2010, 03:18 PM
as to bob being helpful, he is dazzling you with engineer speak but no one that leads you into something ... that will cause a failure of equipment is helpful in the end but...




gary---If you were half the person you try to make yourself out to be you would stop bashing me and other posters and stick to posting your views and recommendations. There are people in this world with long experience and there are people in this world with an experience that has been repeated many times. I am beginning to think you are one of the latter.

As to the quoted statement above--back it up or take it back!

Bob999
05-06-2010, 03:33 PM
There are disadvantages with the use of a Turbulator distributor tube. ... Another is that the softener will use more water for regeneration because to get the Turbulator to work correctly you need a larger gpm DLFC. There are many advantages to a gravel underbed and no disadvantages except for the small $10-15 cost of one.
.
.
.
Do you notice that Bob usually doesn't mention any of the disadvantages of the things he suggests you buy? ... I.E. another potential disadvantage of a Turbulator is excessive wear, bead breakage, of the resin.


Contrary to the view posted above I don't believe that it is necessary to increase the size of the DLFC when installing a Turbulator. In my experience Turbulators work just fine using the same size DLFC as would be used with a standard distributor.

Of course if you do increase the size of the DLFC, as the poster apparently does, then it is understandable that bead breakage and excessive wear could occur. This is a great example of a salesman creating a problem and solving it with his preferred equipment.

Bob999
05-06-2010, 03:45 PM
Question; Who do you know that should know more about softeners than a dealer (lowly salesman to you I guess) with all but a quarter century of experience in sizing selling and servicing many brands of control valves

The above statement is not correct if you believe what has been posted by the same person elsewhere. I have no way of knowing what his actual experience and work history is (this is the internet and individuals can post whatever they want about themselves--anyone who puts a lot of stock in what individuals post about themselves does so at their own risk) but I do know that the above statement conflicts with what he has posted elsewhere.

Specifically, he has posted elsewhere that he has been living in a (no fixed address mobile home) motor home for the past several years and selling water softeners on the internet. Not "servicing many brands of control valves" and not a dealer.

Gary Slusser
05-07-2010, 04:28 PM
Contrary to the view posted above I don't believe that it is necessary to increase the size of the DLFC when installing a Turbulator. In my experience Turbulators work just fine using the same size DLFC as would be used with a standard distributor.

Of course if you do increase the size of the DLFC, as the poster apparently does, then it is understandable that bead breakage and excessive wear could occur. This is a great example of a salesman creating a problem and solving it with his preferred equipment.
Bob, state your experience in selling and servicing softners with a Tubulator distributor tube or... call any wholesaler supplier of softeners that sells the Turbulator distributor tube and ask them if I'm right or wrong about increasing the size of the DLFC. Or try Pentair's web site for the instructions concerning the use of the Turbulator distributor tube.

Or look at the pictures below of a regular 1.05" OD DT (the gray one) and a 1.05" OD Tubulator DT and tell me how the same gpm flow of water down both types of distributor tubes is going to equally backwash the resin when the Turbulator DT diverts a 1/2" flow of resin and water up the side tube of a Turbulator.

Also tell us how you think the Turbulator softener still gets the same bed expansion of a minimum of 50% of the bed depth that all resin manufacturers require for proper backwashing of their resin when a 1/2" flow is diverted from the backwash water flow wit ha Turbulator. The ID of both distributor tube types is 3/4".

.1056810569

Bob999
05-07-2010, 07:53 PM
Also tell us how you think the Turbulator softener still gets the same bed expansion of a minimum of 50% of the bed depth that all resin manufacturers require for proper backwashing of their resin when a 1/2" flow is diverted from the backwash water flow wit ha Turbulator. The ID of both distributor tube types is 3/4".



Please post a reference that supports your assertion that "bed expansion of a minimum of 50% of the bed depth that all resin manufacturers require". I don't believe that such a requirement exists.

As you well know the action of a turbulator is different and because of that many suppliers use smaller tanks with turbulators--or use more resin. I believe one of the other posters on this board has posted that he does the latter.

There are many approaches to water treatment and very few "requirements". Rather there are practices, good practices, etc. Just because you do things one way does not mean that there are not other ways and just because someone does things differently than you recommend does not make them wrong.

Akpsdvan
05-07-2010, 10:02 PM
What is the max gpm with the turbolator?

Does any one know?

I know , but would like to find out if any one else knows the number that is the max gpm.

Gary Slusser
05-09-2010, 01:05 PM
Please post a reference that supports your assertion that "bed expansion of a minimum of 50% of the bed depth that all resin manufacturers require". I don't believe that such a requirement exists.
I know you don't and yet you can ask any resin manufuacturer what freeboard they want and if there are any problems if it is less than they want.


As you well know the action of a turbulator is different and because of that many suppliers use smaller tanks with turbulators--or use more resin. I believe one of the other posters on this board has posted that he does the latter.
Like I said, I've never heard of that being done except by AKpsdvan. And now you.

I wouldn't do it, especially with warmer water than he has in AK but, what do you see as the advantage to more resin in an undersized tank with iron in the water and then adding a Turbulator without increasing the gpm of the DLFC, ?


There are many approaches to water treatment and very few "requirements". Rather there are practices, good practices, etc. Just because you do things one way does not mean that there are not other ways and just because someone does things differently than you recommend does not make them wrong.
Yes I use good and proven practices and you and AKpsdvan are telling people to do things that are not industry standard.

Bob999
05-09-2010, 02:27 PM
Like I said, I've never heard of that being done except by AKpsdvan. And now you.



Gary, there is much that you have never heard of that exists and is done. We all know that you believe that if you haven't heard it and done it then it can't be right. It is that attitude that creates so much conflict everywhere you post.

The reality and truth is that there are many many ideas and ways to do things in this world that you don't know about and haven't experienced. But the fact that you don't know about them and haven't experienced them doesn't mean they don't exist and doesn't mean they aren't good ways of doing things.

Akpsdvan
05-09-2010, 02:36 PM
Hague Gold Crown was set up with 10" of free board and the turbo.

They even had a clear media tank for shows and with the turbo in it and 2gpm flow rate the resin would stay down and not get out in the back wash.

The Hague 232 was 1 cubic with a 22k on optimum setting
The Hague 252 was 1.5 cubic with a 30k on optimum setting
The Hague 272 was 1.8 cubic with a 45k on optimum setting

This was from a page that was dated Jan. 1986 so this has been around for at least 25 years.

Bob999
05-09-2010, 02:36 PM
... you ... are telling people to do things that are not industry standard.

I don't believe that is true. Please cite an example where I have told someone to do things "that are not industry standard"-- and provide a reference for the "industry standard" you are basing your comment on.

In the instant case I said: "As you well know the action of a turbulator is different and because of that many suppliers use smaller tanks with turbulators--or use more resin." I DID NOT tell anyone to use small tanks or to use more resin--I merely stated that many suppliers do. I also did not say that I use smaller tanks or use more resin in the tank.

Bob999
05-09-2010, 02:38 PM
What is the max gpm with the turbolator?

Does any one know?

I know , but would like to find out if any one else knows the number that is the max gpm.

I don't know but am looking forward to learning!

Gary Slusser
05-09-2010, 10:08 PM
Hague Gold Crown was set up with 10" of free board and the turbo.

They even had a clear media tank for shows and with the turbo in it and 2gpm flow rate the resin would stay down and not get out in the back wash.

The Hague 232 was 1 cubic with a 22k on optimum setting
The Hague 252 was 1.5 cubic with a 30k on optimum setting
The Hague 272 was 1.8 cubic with a 45k on optimum setting

This was from a page that was dated Jan. 1986 so this has been around for at least 25 years.
Does Hague still sell that model... I'm thinking not. And why would that be since it worked so well and they demoed it with a clear tank'n all?

It sounds like a lot of other things that were tried and given up on after it didn't work. And then years later soneone tries it again for a time until they give up on it because it doesn't work.

What are those optimum settings' salt dose lbs?

If I program a 1.0 cuft with regular mesh resin, I get 22K @ 6.5 lbs. A 1.5 @ 9 lbs gets 30K, a 1.8 cuft is an odd size but a 2.0 cuft with regular resin, I get 40K @ 12lbs.

Akpsdvan
05-09-2010, 10:39 PM
Does Hague still sell that model... I'm thinking not. And why would that be since it worked so well and they demoed it with a clear tank'n all?

It sounds like a lot of other things that were tried and given up on after it didn't work. And then years later soneone tries it again for a time until they give up on it because it doesn't work.

What are those optimum settings' salt dose lbs?

If I program a 1.0 cuft with regular mesh resin, I get 22K @ 6.5 lbs. A 1.5 @ 9 lbs gets 30K, a 1.8 cuft is an odd size but a 2.0 cuft with regular resin, I get 40K @ 12lbs.

So little that you know..

That Line was retired because of production cost of the valve, and that they wished to have the same valve on the new hydro clean and water max and water boss... cost savings.

The salt curve.. where on that curve does one get the best bang for the buck?

There are Hague units out there around here that have worked with no service calls for 20 years... and that after the person had another brand name unit that was getting service work done every year just to have so so water..

Those same Hague units that you are putting down did better on high iron because of the make up and say the Culligan Mark 89 or 812....

Gary Slusser
05-10-2010, 01:05 PM
So little that you know..
Then teach me and others reading your posts.


That Line was retired because of production cost of the valve, and that they wished to have the same valve on the new hydro clean and water max and water boss... cost savings.
But see, you aren't telling us that they are still using the Turbulator in smaller than normal tanks and putting more resin in them than normal volumes. I know they aren't.


The salt curve.. where on that curve does one get the best bang for the buck?
I asked you for the salt dose in lbs used per regeneration for what you said was the optimal settings.


There are Hague units out there around here that have worked with no service calls for 20 years...
And I have seen Autotrol, Brunner, Erie and Fleck coantrols do the same 20 years service free. I've seen Water Right, WaterCare, Culligan, McClean and Rainsoft etc. etc. go 20 years service free also.

Those same Hague units that you are putting down did better on high iron because of the make up and say the Culligan Mark 89 or 812....[/QUOTE]
I didn't put them down, I simply said they don't do it anymore because it didn't work and you have proved I was correct..

Akpsdvan
05-10-2010, 01:31 PM
You missed and this thread has gone into left field.
Let me know when it returns to what was started.

Wally Hays
05-11-2010, 05:00 PM
What is the max gpm with the turbolator?

Does any one know?

I know , but would like to find out if any one else knows the number that is the max gpm.

So, what's the word here? I've never used anything with a turbulator but I'm gonna guess somewhere around 8 to 12 gpm