PDA

View Full Version : 1-1/4" PEX, is a DIY install possible?



hoffmand
03-22-2010, 08:20 PM
Our new home has a softener loop in the garage with 1-1/4" PEX. I was planning on installing a softener myself with Sharkbite (or similar) fittings, but as far as I can tell, they only go up to 1".

I can't seem to find any other options other than the tool-based systems and that is tough to justify for only two fittings. Are there any other options or am I better off just paying a plumber for this job?

Thanks,
Dave

Akpsdvan
03-22-2010, 08:55 PM
Have the plumber install to female or male nipples off the 1 1/4 pex tee.. if the nipples be either male or female then you can reduce down to the size that you will need to get to the softener bypass.

There are 2 different ways of using the pex, crimp or exspand... I have the exspand set up....

hoffmand
03-23-2010, 10:18 AM
Thanks, I will call around to get rates from a local plumber. Any recommendations on what size the MPT fittings should be? Seems like 1" is more standard but I want to check since I'm coming off of 1-1/4".

Akpsdvan
03-23-2010, 11:19 AM
If he does 1 1/4 FPT and your system is 3/4" then use a bushing from 1 1/4 to 3/4 then a nipple and then flex to the softener bypass...
or
If he does 1 1/4 FPT and your system is 1" then use a bushing from 1 1/4 to 1 then a nipple and then flex to the softener bypass...

Either way you win....

mattbee24
03-23-2010, 12:55 PM
Are you sure what you have is 1-1/4" pex? That's kind of an odd thing to run in a residential setting.

Gary Slusser
03-23-2010, 04:49 PM
Our new home has a softener loop in the garage with 1-1/4" PEX. I was planning on installing a softener myself with Sharkbite (or similar) fittings, but as far as I can tell, they only go up to 1".

I can't seem to find any other options other than the tool-based systems and that is tough to justify for only two fittings. Are there any other options or am I better off just paying a plumber for this job?

Thanks,
Dave
I question 1.25" PEX too, never heard of it before. You sure you aren't measuring the OD? PEX, CPVC and copper are all CTS (copper tubing size) which maintains the OD and the ID varies by the pressure rating. So the ID is less than the common name for the tubing, like 3/4" (7/8" OD) or 1" (1 1/8" OD) etc.. The hole is smaller than the 3/4" or 1" name.

And Peter should be here any minute saying AKpsdvan shouldn't be proposing reduction of the ID of the pipe because code says not to reduce the 1.25" ID to make the connections.

hoffmand
03-23-2010, 05:45 PM
It's a black plastic pipe and the fittings say 1-1/4. Let me know if I've got it wrong.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9169/img4750t.jpg

Akpsdvan
03-23-2010, 05:53 PM
You have it right..

Now the choice... there are few to no 1 1/4 valves out there... either going to 1 1/2 or down to 1" will be the real choices that you have..

One thing that you might wish to look up is the head loss for 1 1/4 and 1 and see if there is a great difference....

most of the books that have any kind of table do not go below 10gpm on 1 1/4 pipe.....

hoffmand
03-23-2010, 06:39 PM
Are you sure what you have is 1-1/4" pex? That's kind of an odd thing to run in a residential setting.

We have 4 full bathrooms so maybe the builder sized up to accomodate multiple showers running at once?

Edit - During my research tonight I came across a site offering a 1.25" "high flow" Clack unit. If I'm not supposed to reduce my water line should I be looking at something like this vs a regular WS1?

Gary Slusser
03-23-2010, 09:09 PM
We have 4 full bathrooms so maybe the builder sized up to accomodate multiple showers running at once?

Edit - During my research tonight I came across a site offering a 1.25" "high flow" Clack unit. If I'm not supposed to reduce my water line should I be looking at something like this vs a regular WS1?
That's my guess to, an over sized main line but, PEX has a smaller ID than copper and CPVC so you may have an ID closer to 1" than 1.25".

Depending on the size of the softener, you probably don't need a 1.25" control valve but, you can get 1.25" plumbing connectors for a 1" control valve.

hoffmand
03-23-2010, 09:30 PM
Gary- Our city-supplied water is not very hard (10 gpg) and with 5 people your calculator recommends a 1.5 cf, 24,000 grain system. Would a 1" system be appropriate?

Akpsdvan
03-23-2010, 09:36 PM
Flow rate?

1.5 cubic would be more in line with 33000 grains at 9lbs and clean about every 10 days with your hardness and number of people.

1" valve Bypass and Valve Fleck or Clack would be able to handle peak flow of 17 gpm with 25psi loss..

Look for one with a Digital meter... so that you can set for both gallons and 9 day over ride..

hoffmand
03-24-2010, 05:27 AM
Flow rate?



Peak or average flow rate? (sorry, still learning....)

Gary Slusser
03-24-2010, 09:06 AM
Gary- Our city-supplied water is not very hard (10 gpg) and with 5 people your calculator recommends a 1.5 cf, 24,000 grain system. Would a 1" system be appropriate?
You aren't reading that right. Every softener has an adjustable K of capacity. The K of capacity is controlled by the number of lbs of salt used per regeneration, which is adjustable.

The calculator gives you the minimum cuft of resin and the K of capacity required and then you set the salt dose to provide that K of capacity in that volume of resin. And 10 gpg hard water is all but extreme hardness.

5*60= 300 *10= 3000 * 8 = 24,000 and I'd round up to 25K and set the salt lbs at 8.5 lbs in a 1.5 cuft softener with regular mesh resin. That has no reserve built in and with a Clack WS-1 CS you don't need a reserve.

You'd get a regeneration roughly every 8 days but... The constant SFR gpm of a 1.5 cuft may be too low for your 4 bathroom house and family size. I'd have to talk to you to tell you if it is.

Yes a 1" Clack WS-1 CS valve would be fine as long as the constant SFR of the softener is correct.

Akpsdvan
03-24-2010, 09:13 AM
Learning curves are great....

Average Flow the way I was tought was Gallons used in a day divided by 1440 ... so your house size family size would maybe put you at say 700gallons/1440=.46gpm.... but when one counts fixture plumbing weight that would have every thing on at the same time it might show 38gpm..

So there is a balance that is going to be needed.. if you size to small there is going to be higher pressure loss.. if you size to big then there will be channeling or water finding the path that is easy through the system..

Doing a search of Plumbing Fixture Weight Count will help you in finding what that peak is going to be for your house.

Gary Slusser
03-24-2010, 09:22 AM
Flow rate?

1.5 cubic would be more in line with 33000 grains at 9lbs and clean about every 10 days with your hardness and number of people.

1" valve Bypass and Valve Fleck or Clack would be able to handle peak flow of 17 gpm with 25psi loss..

Look for one with a Digital meter... so that you can set for both gallons and 9 day over ride..
How do you expect a homeowner to come up with his "flow rate"? And which "flow rate" are you talking about? As a dealer you should be doing that for your prospective customer.

Your statement of 17 gpm @25 psi... I don't see that with the softeners with the Clack WS-1 that I have been selling for over 6 years. And I've sold them on up to 6.5 cuft softeners with many 2.5, 3 and 3.5 cuft softeners. No customer has ever mentioned a pressure loss (or flow) problem. And that includes 2 person showers with up to 6 body sprays. IMO there is something about sizing softeners that you aren't understanding correctly.

Akpsdvan
03-24-2010, 09:38 AM
So there is no greater pressure drop the higher the flow rate through a valve?

The Home owner should not learn what is going on inside their house including water usage and flow rates and why there is not Great pressure at the shower on the third floor?

Gary Slusser
03-24-2010, 11:11 AM
Learning curves are great....

Average Flow the way I was tought was Gallons used in a day divided by 1440 ... so your house size family size would maybe put you at say 700gallons/1440=.46gpm.... but when one counts fixture plumbing weight that would have every thing on at the same time it might show 38gpm..

So there is a balance that is going to be needed.. if you size to small there is going to be higher pressure loss.. if you size to big then there will be channeling or water finding the path that is easy through the system..

Doing a search of Plumbing Fixture Weight Count will help you in finding what that peak is going to be for your house.
Because of the variations in water quality and temps, actual experience is the best way to learn but I've never heard of what you have been taught.

Fixture unit count gets you into HUGE sizes because it's as if every faucet and water using appliance is run at the same time. No one lives like that.

I don't agree with "a balance", I size for the peak demand gpm based on the type of fixtures etc. and how the family actually uses water based on fixture flow rates. I've been doing that for many years.
I've never had a customer with a channeling problem or to go over the constant SFR gpm of their softener, or complaining about a pressure/flow loss.

Akpsdvan
03-24-2010, 11:15 AM
What ever.............

Looks to be only one way to do things...

Gary Slusser
03-24-2010, 11:18 AM
So there is no greater pressure drop the higher the flow rate through a valve?

The Home owner should not learn what is going on inside their house including water usage and flow rates and why there is not Great pressure at the shower on the third floor?
Did I say there wasn't a greater pressure drop, no I didn't. I said that from my experience it doesn't work the way you think it does. BTW, a correctly sized softener will not have a noticeable pressure or flow loss.

And I don't recall selling to anyone with a third floor but, if they have a 3rd floor, they already have the pressure and flow to service it.

Maybe in AK there are many three floor houses, but my customers tend to be in ranch or two story houses, not three story.

Gary Slusser
03-24-2010, 11:24 AM
What ever.............

Looks to be only one way to do things...
"What ever"?

IMO you're right. And that one way is the right way.

How many people have you sold softeners to that have had pressure or flow losses? IMO with you using smaller diameter but taller tanks as you say you use with Turbulator distributor tubes, you should, IMO. Also, I've been on the internet posting like this since Jan 1997 (13 yrs) and I don't hear people with softeners talking about a loss of pressure due to the size of their softeners. Do you?

hoffmand
03-24-2010, 11:34 AM
I mentioned 10gpg not being very hard because I see people with well water posting 20-30+ gpg.

I'll give you a call to go over the specifics, but we don't have any crazy showers, just regular single-head, flow restricted showers. We do use the bathtubs for the kids so the most water we'd ever use at once would be two tubs filling and maybe the dishwasher and front-loader washing machine.

One last part of my learning curve is whether softeners are either 100% softening to 0gpg, or off. Is there any middle ground to help us (my wife) transition from always having hard water to what she calls "slimy" soft water? Ideally I'd leave a tiny bit of hardness in the water for a month or two until she was used to it and then run it properly.

Thanks for the help everyone...

Bob999
03-24-2010, 12:07 PM
One last part of my learning curve is whether softeners are either 100% softening to 0gpg, or off. Is there any middle ground to help us (my wife) transition from always having hard water to what she calls "slimy" soft water? Ideally I'd leave a tiny bit of hardness in the water for a month or two until she was used to it and then run it properly.

Thanks for the help everyone...

You won't get zero hardness from a typical residential softener installation--at least not at typical flow rates. Don't be mislead by postings that talk about "0 grains per gallon" from a residential softener. A typical residential softener will have hardness leakage of several parts per million and each part per million is equal to approximately .05 grains per gallon.

However, even with several parts per million residual hardness it is very likely that your wife will perceive the water as "slimy" and the Water Quality Association says that water of less than 1 grain per gallon is "soft".

hoffmand
03-24-2010, 12:12 PM
Thanks. Can you "trick" the softener into not softening down to 1gpg at first?

Gary Slusser
03-24-2010, 12:26 PM
Yes water hardness varies widely from one well to another. My record hardness is 136 gpg.

Bath tubs usually have the highest flow rate of any fixture in a house. And all other water being used at the time a tub is beiing filled is added to that flow and the softener has to treat all of it. Front loading washing machines are connected to the same hoses and plumbing in the wall that other washing machines that use more water are connected to. So it's the same gpm flow rate, regardless of the number of gallons used. Front loaders use the same gpm but for a shorter length of time.

"Soft" water in relation to residential softeners is stated in gpg (grains per gallons) and the WQA (Water Quality Association) says a softener is working as long as there is no more than 1 gpg of hardness in the softened water. I say it should be 0 gpg and I size for that.

The slippery feeling is easy to get used to when you realize your skin and clothes and appliances and fixtures are benefiting greatly from softened water. So is your water heater and shower heads and valves etc. but, if you want to, Clack plumbing connectors allow an easy simple way to add some hard water back into the softened water if you want to do that. Although I don't suggest it. She will be cutting way back on detergents, soap and shampoo and conditioners and her skin will be very soft, smooth and moisturized without those products. Her hair be silky soft'n shinny and the clothes will be soft and much cleaner and brighter too without adding laundry softeners or softener dryer sheets. And everything she cleans with the soft water will clean up easier and faster and stay clean longer. And once she gets used to it (about 3 weeks), she will really hate going somewhere and having to use hard water. And she will be your official soft water tester, if the softener starts allowing hard water through it, she WILL be telling you all but immediately.

Gary Slusser
03-24-2010, 12:43 PM
You won't get zero hardness from a typical residential softener installation--at least not at typical flow rates. Don't be mislead by postings that talk about "0 grains per gallon" from a residential softener. A typical residential softener will have hardness leakage of several parts per million and each part per million is equal to approximately .05 grains per gallon.
You are playing with words Bob and you know it. When some one says the water from a residential softener is "soft", you know they mean 0 GPG because they use a test kit that shows the test result in GPG.

A gpg is made up of 17.1 ppm or mg/l. And people rarely if ever can 'feel' less than 1-2 gpg of hardness.


However, even with several parts per million residual hardness it is very likely that your wife will perceive the water as "slimy" and the Water Quality Association says that water of less than 1 grain per gallon is "soft".
The WQA says that in relation to a softener's operation as in it doing what it is expected or supposed to do consistently; that is to produce water of no more than 1 GPG of hardness.

Gary Slusser
03-24-2010, 12:44 PM
Thanks. Can you "trick" the softener into not softening down to 1gpg at first?
No trick or tricks, if you want water harder than say 0 or 1 GPG, you must add some hard water back into the softened water.

hoffmand
03-24-2010, 03:42 PM
No trick or tricks, if you want water harder than say 0 or 1 GPG, you must add some hard water back into the softened water.

Even if we never add some hard water back in, it will make her less resistant to know it can be adjusted back a little. Do i need to plan for that during my plumbing work, or is that handled with the bypass valve?

Skip Wolverton
03-24-2010, 04:39 PM
I mentioned 10gpg not being very hard because I see people with well water posting 20-30+ gpg.

I'll give you a call to go over the specifics, but we don't have any crazy showers, just regular single-head, flow restricted showers. We do use the bathtubs for the kids so the most water we'd ever use at once would be two tubs filling and maybe the dishwasher and front-loader washing machine.

One last part of my learning curve is whether softeners are either 100% softening to 0gpg, or off. Is there any middle ground to help us (my wife) transition from always having hard water to what she calls "slimy" soft water? Ideally I'd leave a tiny bit of hardness in the water for a month or two until she was used to it and then run it properly.

Thanks for the help everyone...
I spent 13 yrs in Austin working in the water treatment industry. I have had several people tell me they don not want the "slimy" feeling. I would install a cross over pipe with a ball valve in it and open it slightly and bleed about 1 grain of hardness. You get the bennies of soft water but the feel of hard. I still know several people in the Austin area that sell and service water treatment for you need someone local.

Akpsdvan
03-24-2010, 09:04 PM
Oh my,,,,

Here we go again........

Gary Slusser
03-24-2010, 09:38 PM
Even if we never add some hard water back in, it will make her less resistant to know it can be adjusted back a little. Do i need to plan for that during my plumbing work, or is that handled with the bypass valve?
No plumbing as you might think, the Clack plumbing connectors allow you to mix some hard water back in. You do that after installing the unit. It will take 10-15 minutes max.

hoffmand
03-28-2010, 03:11 PM
Thanks for the help everyone. Turns out that tools for 1-1/4 PEX are not something the smaller plumbers in my area typically have. They all recommended going back to the company that plumbed our house when it was built last year since they obviously have the tools.

The ironic part about this over-sized supply line is that my family is apparently quite frugal with our water use. I checked our usage with the water company and we have only been averaging 4,000 gal/month (33 gals/person/day not counting the baby). Our other two kids each take a both or shower every day so I expect only a slight increase as the baby gets older. We had guests twice in the last few months and our highest usage was 6,000 gallons when we had 3 extra adults and one kid staying here for almost two weeks. We go much higher in the summer (16,000 gallons!) but that's all from irrigation and won't affect a softener.

I also checked our tubs for max flow rate and the only one that's not anti-scald is putting out about 5-7 gal/min when we draw a bath. It could go higher but then it is coming out ridiculously fast and we'd never use it like that.

Dave

Akpsdvan
03-28-2010, 03:47 PM
Thanks for the help everyone. Turns out that tools for 1-1/4 PEX are not something the smaller plumbers in my area typically have. They all recommended going back to the company that plumbed our house when it was built last year since they obviously have the tools.

The ironic part about this over-sized supply line is that my family is apparently quite frugal with our water use. I checked our usage with the water company and we have only been averaging 4,000 gal/month (33 gals/person/day not counting the baby). Our other two kids each take a both or shower every day so I expect only a slight increase as the baby gets older. We had guests twice in the last few months and our highest usage was 6,000 gallons when we had 3 extra adults and one kid staying here for almost two weeks. We go much higher in the summer (16,000 gallons!) but that's all from irrigation and won't affect a softener.

I also checked our tubs for max flow rate and the only one that's not anti-scald is putting out about 5-7 gal/min when we draw a bath. It could go higher but then it is coming out ridiculously fast and we'd never use it like that.

Dave

Your family might use little water , but the next family could use water 5 times what you are doing...

But yes having the company that did the plumbing at the start come back and do a bypass set up with 1" males or females would be the way to go.. in a way they should have done that at the start if treatment is normal in that area..

Bob999
03-28-2010, 05:19 PM
Most softeners either come with a bypass or one is available as an option. You indicated you presently have a loop so one option would be to have the plumbing company cut the loop open and install female brass adapters on each leg of the loop and then connect the loop together if you don't' have the softener there to connect to when they cut the loop. That would avoid installing a bypass that creates dead ends and resulting stagnate water once the softener is installed.

hoffmand
03-28-2010, 05:59 PM
I will have the softener there before I have a plumber come out. It won't cost much more to have him plumb the softener vs just crimping on the female adapters.

If I'm going to use PVC for the pipes connecting the softener, I would want PVC adapters hooked on to the PEX rather than brass, right? My plan was to install a 1" ball valve before and after the softener's bypass valve. Then I'll try Gary's idea of using the Clack bypass to bleed in some hard water for a little while if the wife wants it.

Skip Wolverton
03-29-2010, 04:28 AM
What I told my customers is to try the soft water first and after about 2 weeks you don't like it then bleed some hard water into the soft. In 13 yrs I only had 1 that called me back after 2 weeks to bleed hard water into the soft.

Bob999
03-29-2010, 04:52 AM
I will have the softener there before I have a plumber come out. It won't cost much more to have him plumb the softener vs just crimping on the female adapters.

If I'm going to use PVC for the pipes connecting the softener, I would want PVC adapters hooked on to the PEX rather than brass, right? My plan was to install a 1" ball valve before and after the softener's bypass valve. Then I'll try Gary's idea of using the Clack bypass to bleed in some hard water for a little while if the wife wants it.

Check you local codes--PVC is probably not approved. If you want to use plastic you will probably need to use CPVC. If you use plastic the female adapters have a tendency to crack unless you can find the special metal banded female adapters so it would be preferable to use brass female fittings for the crimped fittings and then a male plastic into the brass.

hoffmand
03-29-2010, 07:54 AM
You're right, brass is probably the way to go. My new plan was to use 1" brass ball valves and 1" Falcon stainless lines, but according to their site those falcon lines are $35/ea. Wow.

Akpsdvan
03-29-2010, 11:28 AM
They are a bit spendy.. but there is a trade.. if unit that you get needs to be moved left or right a little in a few years the Falcon lines will let you do that.. if it is copper then where the unit is is where is stays..

hoffmand
04-03-2010, 10:38 AM
Turns out the manager of the company that plumbed my house is a good friend of my neighbor and they also carry softeners. I asked him to crimp on some fittings to my PEX and this is what I ended up with:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1058/img4888f.jpg (http://img229.imageshack.us/i/img4888f.jpg/)

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/4165/img4889mk.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/i/img4889mk.jpg/)

It's a 3cuft unit with an Autotrol 268/760 and 1-1/4" bypass valve. Our loop had the inlet/outlet opposite from the bypass so we had to add 2 extra elbows. If we could have moved the resin tank forward another 3-4" i could have just run the pipes in an "X", but we just didn't have room.

The Autotrol is limited to 3 salt settings so at the lowest of 3.3lbs/cuft I get 44k of capacity from a "90k" softener. That would cover around 3 weeks of usage so I set the calendar regen to 14days if we don't hit the 3,600 gallons first. We have 0 iron on city water so i hope that's not too long between regens.

As the existing hard water in the heater and plumbing gets flushed out I'll see how my wife adjusts to soft water.

Thanks again for the help.

and before anyone asks, the second power cord is for the Watts recirc pump i put on my hot water heater. I'll put its own outlet in the closet eventually.

Skip Wolverton
04-03-2010, 10:51 AM
Looks GREAT. I know you will enjoy clean water. Congrads.

Wally Hays
04-03-2010, 12:43 PM
first rate job, looks great. Love the Stainless tank, you can see your face in it :)

Gary Slusser
04-03-2010, 02:04 PM
I think you'd find that the SS is a wrap around SS jacket, not a SS tank.

Wally Hays
04-03-2010, 02:16 PM
Thanks for pointing that out to everyone. I'm sure it makes a huge difference. Could you tell us the grade and thickness of the stainless while you are at it? Perhaps the country and factory it was manufactured in. LOL

Gary Slusser
04-03-2010, 02:35 PM
Thanks for pointing that out to everyone. I'm sure it makes a huge difference. Could you tell us the grade and thickness of the stainless while you are at it? Perhaps the country and factory it was manufactured in. LOL
You're welcome and yes you're right, a huge difference but no I can't tell you where the SS wraps are made. But one of the largest and oldest SS softener/filter tank manufacturers is in Mechanicsburg PA. The owner's name is John, his son's name is Rob and if you want contact info, email me your email address.

p.s. SS tanks don't have the black plastic cap on them.

hoffmand
04-03-2010, 02:39 PM
Thanks guys. Even though it's just an insulating jacket, the SS does look nice.

I'm paronaoid about potential leaks so I'll force a regen tonight after everyone goes to sleep. Is there any reason to do the first regeneration on a higher salt setting? Or is it fine to leave it on the 3.3lbs/cuft that I'm going to keep it on?

Skip Wolverton
04-03-2010, 03:38 PM
Thanks guys. Even though it's just an insulating jacket, the SS does look nice.

I'm paronaoid about potential leaks so I'll force a regen tonight after everyone goes to sleep. Is there any reason to do the first regeneration on a higher salt setting? Or is it fine to leave it on the 3.3lbs/cuft that I'm going to keep it on?
New resin comes pre-charged. No need to increase the salt for the first regen.

hoffmand
04-03-2010, 04:41 PM
New resin comes pre-charged. No need to increase the salt for the first regen.

Thanks

BTW, I have even more respect for you guys who have done this with older plumbing or no loops. It took an hour or two to get everything situated and my install is about as simple as it gets.

Dave

Wally Hays
04-04-2010, 06:13 AM
You're welcome and yes you're right, a huge difference but no I can't tell you where the SS wraps are made. But one of the largest and oldest SS softener/filter tank manufacturers is in Mechanicsburg PA. The owner's name is John, his son's name is Rob and if you want contact info, email me your email address.

For real? I had no idea :rolleyes:

p.s. SS tanks don't have the black plastic cap on them.

Reaally? I had no idea:rolleyes:

Gary Slusser
04-04-2010, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Gary Slusser http://www.terrylove.com/forums/../images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/../showthread.php?p=254285#post254285) You're welcome and yes you're right, a huge difference but no I can't tell you where the SS wraps are made. But one of the largest and oldest SS softener/filter tank manufacturers is in Mechanicsburg PA. The owner's name is John, his son's name is Rob and if you want contact info, email me your email address.

For real? I had no idea http://www.terrylove.com/forums/../images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

p.s. SS tanks don't have the black plastic cap on them.



Reaally? I had no idea:rolleyes:
I know.

But I see you are improving in your attempt to learn how to quote and I suspect that with more practice you'll know how shortly.

Wally Hays
04-04-2010, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Gary Slusser http://www.terrylove.com/forums/../images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/../showthread.php?p=254285#post254285) You're welcome and yes you're right, a huge difference but no I can't tell you where the SS wraps are made. But one of the largest and oldest SS softener/filter tank manufacturers is in Mechanicsburg PA. The owner's name is John, his son's name is Rob and if you want contact info, email me your email address.

For real? I had no idea http://www.terrylove.com/forums/../images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

p.s. SS tanks don't have the black plastic cap on them.



I know.

But I see you are improving in your attempt to learn how to quote and I suspect that with more practice you'll know how shortly.

You are the champ baby ;)

I like the way I quote. I was not aware that there was a prescribed "method" for replying line to line but hey, if it makes you happy I will be glad to not oblige.

Gary Slusser
04-04-2010, 03:10 PM
You are the champ baby ;)
There ya go!, ya got it now.

Wally Hays
04-04-2010, 03:17 PM
There ya go!, ya got it now.

Oh Goody, I''m so glad. My day is complete.

hoffmand
04-04-2010, 03:51 PM
I liked it better when we were talking about water softeners....

hj
04-04-2010, 05:33 PM
Gary; "K" is controlled by the salt per regeneration? I was always taught that is was controlled by the amount of resin in the tank and THAT controlled the amount of salt needed per regeneration. I guess that means all those electronic meters that are programmed according to the water hardness so the softener knows when to regenerate, should be reprogrammed according to the amount of salt being used.

Gary Slusser
04-04-2010, 11:44 PM
Gary; "K" is controlled by the salt per regeneration? I was always taught that is was controlled by the amount of resin in the tank and THAT controlled the amount of salt needed per regeneration. I guess that means all those electronic meters that are programmed according to the water hardness so the softener knows when to regenerate, should be reprogrammed according to the amount of salt being used.
All control valves come from the factory with default settings. The dealer/installer is supposed to input the hardness in gpg, the K of capacity and the salt dose lbs or volume of refill water either in the control valve or the or volume of refill water in the salt tank with a float.

Example, in this thread an Autotrol control valve (probably a 255) with an electronic metered Logix timer has been selected for the 3.0 cuft (90K usable) softener. It has only 3 salt dose/setting choices, low, medium and high salt efficiency, and one has to be chosen or the default choice/lbs (I don't know what that is) will be used. I. E. the Clack WS-1 defaults are 24K, 9.5 lbs and 20 gpg and can be used on tanks from 6" to 21" diameter (a 7.5 cuft softener). Those settings are not close to appropriate mathematically for any volume or type of resin.

Then the computer will allow water to flow into the salt tank for X minutes at the rate of .5 gpm or 1.5 lbs to dissolve roughly 3 lbs of salt per gallon of refill water. And depending on the volume of resin in cuft, you get the K of capacity. It is all done with simple math.

That makes the K of capacity adjustable. Let's assume we have a 1.0 cuft ("32K") softener. The first time you run hard water through it you lose 2K because you won't be able to regenerate it to more than 30K (per cuft of resin) and to do that you need to program/set the salt dose at 15 lbs (per cuft).

Now some people mistakenly believe you should use all the capacity before regeneration, but that is going to get very poor salt efficiency of 2000 grains/lb (30000/15= 2000). And MANY days between regenerations and that can foul resin requiring resin replacement. If you set the salt dose at say 6 lbs (per cuft), you get 20K and 3333 grains/lb. Nine lbs (per cuft) gets 2666 grs/lb, and any control valve or a float in the salt tank can be set less than 6 lbs. (per cuft). And, using the max K is like letting your vehicle run out of fuel before filling the tank or buying less than would be needed to fill it before it ran out.

For more depth on all that, you can Click on the link in my signature about sizing but yes, anyone using the 'factory' default settings of a control valve or a float in a salt tank as not done right by their customer and should reprogram the salt lbs and K of capacity.

Skip Wolverton
04-05-2010, 05:36 AM
Gary,
Using your 20k/6lbs salt math, don't you have to add in the reserve? I was taught you factor in a 20% reserve. So you are using 16k and not 20k. This is why I use 20K/8lbs salt.

Gary Slusser
04-05-2010, 08:51 AM
Gary,
Using your 20k/6lbs salt math, don't you have to add in the reserve? I was taught you factor in a 20% reserve. So you are using 16k and not 20k. This is why I use 20K/8lbs salt.

I've never used a percentage, I was taught to do the actual math, and for a time clock subtract a day's worth of capacity. I.E. say 15 gpg and a family of 4 at 60/gals/day/person = 3600 times say a 4 day service run would be 5 times 3600 = 18K and in a 1.0 cuft you'd set the salt dose at 5.5 lbs then set the regen days at 4, 8 and 12. That way you regen 18K and it uses 4 * 3600 = 14,400+/-. Your way uses 2.5 lbs more for the same K.

A reserve for a metered control valve, unless it has variable reserve like the Clack WS-1, you subtract a day's worth of gallons from the total gallons based on the K of capacity. I.E. using the above example, 18K/15gpg=1200 gals - 3600/15= 240 so 1200-240= 960 gallons and with your mechanical meter 5600, it can't accept but whole numbers and the 25 gals increments so you have to set it at 950 gallons. And it would regen on average every 950/240= 3.9 or call it 4 days.

Doing it your way you use 2.5 lbs more every 4 days times 365/4 = 91 regens times 2.5lbs = 227.5 lbs more salt/yr times 10 yrs = 2275lbs which is 1.2 tons more salt when you don't have to.

And here there is a 3.0 cuft at did he say 3 lbs?

hoffmand
04-05-2010, 09:37 AM
And here there is a 3.0 cuft at did he say 3 lbs?

According to the manual, the Autotrol 768 has 3 salt does settings, 3lbs/cuf, 9lbs/cuft, 15lbs/cuft. They call the 3lbs/cuft the "high efficiency mode". With 3 cuft of resin that gives you capacities of 44k, 75k, and 90k respectively. When I enter in 12gpg hardness it calculates how many gallons available before regen (~3,600gals). Since we are currently using <200gals per day, I set the calendar override at 14days, rather than waiting up to 18 days for the meter to say a regen is necessary.

Akpsdvan
04-05-2010, 10:14 AM
According to the manual, the Autotrol 768 has 3 salt does settings, 3lbs/cuf, 9lbs/cuft, 15lbs/cuft. They call the 3lbs/cuft the "high efficiency mode". With 3 cuft of resin that gives you capacities of 44k, 75k, and 90k respectively. When I enter in 12gpg hardness it calculates how many gallons available before regen (~3,600gals). Since we are currently using <200gals per day, I set the calendar override at 14days, rather than waiting up to 18 days for the meter to say a regen is necessary.

Might you have the unit set so that either the gallons or the day over ride takes place?
If you have a house full of people for awhile the gallons most likely will send it into a cycle, while with just the normal the 14 days..

hoffmand
04-05-2010, 10:54 AM
Might you have the unit set so that either the gallons or the day over ride takes place?
If you have a house full of people for awhile the gallons most likely will send it into a cycle, while with just the normal the 14 days..

Yes, whichever comes first, gallons or days.

Akpsdvan
04-05-2010, 11:27 AM
Yes, whichever comes first, gallons or days.

Cool.... that is the great benny of a digital control..

I would leave it the way it is for now , you can always move the gallons up or down or the days up or down later if things are not to your liking after 6-12 months...

You did good in picking things up ...and then setting things up.

Skip Wolverton
04-05-2010, 11:33 AM
I've never used a percentage, I was taught to do the actual math, and for a time clock subtract a day's worth of capacity. I.E. say 15 gpg and a family of 4 at 60/gals/day/person = 3600 times say a 4 day service run would be 5 times 3600 = 18K and in a 1.0 cuft you'd set the salt dose at 5.5 lbs then set the regen days at 4, 8 and 12. That way you regen 18K and it uses 4 * 3600 = 14,400+/-. Your way uses 2.5 lbs more for the same K.

A reserve for a metered control valve, unless it has variable reserve like the Clack WS-1, you subtract a day's worth of gallons from the total gallons based on the K of capacity. I.E. using the above example, 18K/15gpg=1200 gals - 3600/15= 240 so 1200-240= 960 gallons and with your mechanical meter 5600, it can't accept but whole numbers and the 25 gals increments so you have to set it at 950 gallons. And it would regen on average every 950/240= 3.9 or call it 4 days.

Doing it your way you use 2.5 lbs more every 4 days times 365/4 = 91 regens times 2.5lbs = 227.5 lbs more salt/yr times 10 yrs = 2275lbs which is 1.2 tons more salt when you don't have to.

And here there is a 3.0 cuft at did he say 3 lbs?
This is were you and I differ. You say you use a days worth for a reserve (4*60*16=3600) So 18k-3600=14,400 @ 6 lbs.
14400/15= 960. So 960/60/4= 4 days between regens. 30/4*6= 45 lbs per month And I use 20k @ 8lbs. So 20000/15/60/4=5.5 days between regen. So 30/5.5*8=43.6 lbs per month. So who's math is right? Mine says you use 1.4 lbs more and your's says I use 2.5 lbs more.

Gary Slusser
04-05-2010, 01:53 PM
This is were you and I differ. You say you use a days worth for a reserve (4*60*16=3600) So 18k-3600=14,400 @ 6 lbs. 14400/15= 960. So 960/60/4= 4 days between regens. 30/4*6= 45 lbs per month And I use 20k @ 8lbs. So 20000/15/60/4=5.5 days between regen. So 30/5.5*8=43.6 lbs per month. So who's math is right? Mine says you use 1.4 lbs more and your's says I use 2.5 lbs more.
You have a serious error in your math; "So 20000/15/60/4=5.5 days between regen.". (the 60 should be 960) but you can't regen on 5.5 days..

You are saying you would regen every 5.5 days but you can't regen half of a day, whole days only, so it's really every 5 days at 8lbs.

And with 30 days in a month/5 days (you can't regen on half a day) = 6 regens/month * 8lbs of salt each = 48 lbs/'month.

And 48lbs per month - my 41.25 lbs per month = 6.75 lbs more for you per month.

If I have a Clack WS-1 on a 1.0 cuft and want a regen every 4 days, I use 4 people * 60gals/day/person = 240 * 15 gpg = 3600/day * 4 days between regens = 14400 so I'd program it for 15K and 15,000/3333 salt efficiency = 4.5 lbs * 7.5 4 day periods in a month = 33.75 lbs total while your 5600 is using 48 lbs, for a savings of 14.25 lbs/month for my customer.

If I were selling a softener to that family of 4 in my example above, it would be a 1.5 cuft and regenerate 30K with 9 lbs for 2000 gals on the meter (no calculated reserve required because of the variable reserve in the Clack WS-1 CS) and regen on average every 8.333 or actually every 8 days. 30/8 = 3.75 so 3 regens per month at 9 lbs is 27 lbs compared to my 41.25 in the example 1.0 cuft here, and a very substantial savings in salt of 41,25 - 27 = 14.25 lbs. And IMO salt savings should be calculated on an annual basis and divided by 12 for monthly. There are 46 8 day periods in a year * 9 lbs = 414 lbs per year /12 = 34.5 lbs/month.

Skip Wolverton
04-05-2010, 04:30 PM
You have a serious error in your math; "So 20000/15/60/4=5.5 days between regen.". (the 60 should be 960) but you can't regen on 5.5 days..

You are saying you would regen every 5.5 days but you can't regen half of a day, whole days only, so it's really every 5 days at 8lbs.

And with 30 days in a month/5 days (you can't regen on half a day) = 6 regens/month * 8lbs of salt each = 48 lbs/'month.

And 48lbs per month - my 41.25 lbs per month = 6.75 lbs more for you per month.

If I have a Clack WS-1 on a 1.0 cuft and want a regen every 4 days, I use 4 people * 60gals/day/person = 240 * 15 gpg = 3600/day * 4 days between regens = 14400 so I'd program it for 15K and 15,000/3333 salt efficiency = 4.5 lbs * 7.5 4 day periods in a month = 33.75 lbs total while your 5600 is using 48 lbs, for a savings of 14.25 lbs/month for my customer.

If I were selling a softener to that family of 4 in my example above, it would be a 1.5 cuft and regenerate 30K with 9 lbs for 2000 gals on the meter (no calculated reserve required because of the variable reserve in the Clack WS-1 CS) and regen on average every 8.333 or actually every 8 days. 30/8 = 3.75 so 3 regens per month at 9 lbs is 27 lbs compared to my 41.25 in the example 1.0 cuft here, and a very substantial savings in salt of 41,25 - 27 = 14.25 lbs. And IMO salt savings should be calculated on an annual basis and divided by 12 for monthly. There are 46 8 day periods in a year * 9 lbs = 414 lbs per year /12 = 34.5 lbs/month.
Don't you think I would know you can't regen on a half day? I only sell meter system so this is an avg. In your first formula you stated 43.6 lbs per month now it's down to 41.25. What gives there. And what is this 7.4 days in a month. You can not regen on a 7.4 day schedule. LOL. It just does not make sense trying to show you something. I give up!

Akpsdvan
04-05-2010, 05:42 PM
Every 6.5 or 7.4 or 7.1 days works if it is a Twin unit....................

Same amount of resin in different brand name units will have different salt setting and different capacities ....

There is nothing new here... just who is going to be the last one standing ...

Gary Slusser
04-05-2010, 11:53 PM
Don't you think I would know you can't regen on a half day? I only sell meter system so this is an avg. In your first formula you stated 43.6 lbs per month now it's down to 41.25. What gives there. And what is this 7.4 days in a month. You can not regen on a 7.4 day schedule. LOL. It just does not make sense trying to show you something. I give up!
You came up with 41.25 lbs from my first example so what do you mean what's up with that?

The a 7.4 day schedule.... (that 7.4 should be 7.5) and I thought if you can use 5.5 times I can use 7.5 times in a month.

Personally I think you're pulling out now blaming me because the math shows you are wrong on using your 5.5 average. You know there are 6 5 day periods in 30 days and you will regen 6 times, and 6 times times 8 lbs is 48 lbs. The math doesn't lie.

BTW, where is your 20% reserve if you use 20K (20K- 20% is 4K and 20-4 = 16K)?

Skip Wolverton
04-06-2010, 04:17 AM
You came up with 41.25 lbs from my first example so what do you mean what's up with that?

The a 7.4 day schedule.... (that 7.4 should be 7.5) and I thought if you can use 5.5 times I can use 7.5 times in a month.

Personally I think you're pulling out now blaming me because the math shows you are wrong on using your 5.5 average. You know there are 6 5 day periods in 30 days and you will regen 6 times, and 6 times times 8 lbs is 48 lbs. The math doesn't lie.

BTW, where is your 20% reserve if you use 20K (20K- 20% is 4K and 20-4 = 16K)?
My reserve is in the 2 lbs of salt. I set mine for 8lbs not 6 lbs like you do.

Gary Slusser
04-06-2010, 10:42 AM
My reserve is in the 2 lbs of salt. I set mine for 8lbs not 6 lbs like you do.
That's what I thought.

That means your customer gets a salt efficiency of only 2500 grains/lb. 20000/8= 2500.