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View Full Version : Is there any way to tell a water softeners capacity by tank size?



jonjonbear
03-16-2010, 06:46 AM
Hello group,
I have a twin tank softener which was made by "pure-tel" and I have no original paperwork on it. It has two tall chrome tanks with a Fleck 9000 valve on the top. This was in a rental house I had in Las Vegas and removed it when I sold the house and brought it to Texas where it's now installed in my home. It has been running here for five years but it occurred to me that it's probably set way higher than what I need as the water in Vegas is much harder than out here. I have the manual for the valve which I downloaded but the procedure is pretty complicated (at least the part with the pins in the back but maybe that doesn't need setting?), but it appears the first thing I need to know is the unit's capacity. I seem to think I read somewhere this has to do with how much media is installed? The only label on the thing is the manufacture label, with no part number, specs or anything. Is there any way to find out, or figure out what the capacity of this thing is? I have no idea even how old it is. I am using potassium instead of salt and two adults. Also is it possible to upgrade my existing Fleck 9000 mechanical timer to one of the electronic timers? If so what would I need, do they make a kit?

Thanks for any pointers,

John
PS this is my water quality according to my water coop:
(this is ground water supplied from several wells, not reclaimed or surface water if that even matters)
Total Hardness = 39.5 milligrams/liter (mg/L) or 2.3 grains per gallon
Calcium = 8.15 mg/L
Iron = 0.025 mg/L
Magnesium = 4.65 mg/L
Sodium = 222 mg/L
pH = 7.9 Standard Units
Total Alkalinity = 357 mg/L
Chloride = 66mg/L
Sulfate = 83 mg/L
Total Dissolved Solids = 620 mg/L
Aqua maintains an approximately 1.5 to 3.0 mg/L free chlorine residual in the distribution system for disinfection purposes.

On a side note, my parents have an older Kinetico water softener they might give me, it's been out of service for about ten years so don't know what it would take to put it back. I know they paid a huge amount of money for it when they bought it new in Florida. Not sure what model it is but the tanks are tan, not black. Would it being stored for that long destroy it?

Bob999
03-16-2010, 09:07 AM
Capacity of a softener is determined by the amount of resin and the salt dose used for regeneration. You can usually determine the amount of resin by the size of the resin tank--a 9 x 48 tank is typically used for 1 cubic foot of resin.

So what size tanks are used--there should be a model number on the tank that includes the size.

Akpsdvan
03-16-2010, 10:44 AM
A twin,,,,
Bob999 is right, size of the tanks are needed.. if there are no covers on the media tanks some place on the tanks there is a label of the size of the tank or take out a tape and messure the tank across and height of tank.

It is possible to change from the timer that you have to the SXT that Fleck has changed to.

I have changed 2510 from the type of control that you have to the sxt control, so YES it can be done, not that hard.

jonjonbear
03-16-2010, 10:55 AM
A twin,,,,
Bob999 is right, size of the tanks are needed.. if there are no covers on the media tanks some place on the tanks there is a label of the size of the tank or take out a tape and messure the tank across and height of tank.

It is possible to change from the timer that you have to the SXT that Fleck has changed to.

I have changed 2510 from the type of control that you have to the sxt control, so YES it can be done, not that hard.

I am pretty sure mine have covers as the media tanks look chrome, or more likely stainless steel. I will look it over more closely when I get home for any markings, and if not post the measures.
On the timer, where might one find these parts? Looking at the parts list it appears the valves and power head are the same, just the timer and harness, mounts, and of course the water meter are different. Was hoping they might sell a "timer upgrade kit" or something like that.

I will post my finding a bit later,
Thanks for the help guys,
John

Akpsdvan
03-16-2010, 11:08 AM
That cover that is around your tanks is right up on the tank, there is little to NO room between it an the tank.. maybe a 1/4" between the two.

There are a number of items that are the same on the 9000,9100 and 9500 ..
9000 and 9100 are the same save for the valve bodies one is metal and the other is plastic..
Then there is the Elect.. 120v or 24v...
The SE or SXT comes in handy when the gallons that the unit could treat is more than the meter that is on your unit right now... the SE or SXT does not have really an upper limit like your current timer...of 2100 gallons.

Bob999
03-16-2010, 01:23 PM
While it may be possible to upgrade the timer it may not be cost effective. I suspect that buying an electronic timer as a separate item plus what ever parts are needed for the change over will cost about as much as a complete new head. If the old timer is working then it is relatively easy to change the programming on it--it is a matter of moving pins on the timer wheel that is exposed when the cable is unplugged fromthe meter and the timer is swung out.

There are some who prefer the electromechanical timers as being more reliable than electronic timers.

jonjonbear
03-17-2010, 05:17 AM
While it may be possible to upgrade the timer it may not be cost effective. I suspect that buying an electronic timer as a separate item plus what ever parts are needed for the change over will cost about as much as a complete new head. If the old timer is working then it is relatively easy to change the programming on it--it is a matter of moving pins on the timer wheel that is exposed when the cable is unplugged fromthe meter and the timer is swung out.

There are some who prefer the electromechanical timers as being more reliable than electronic timers.

I suspect you are correct, not worth the expense or the trouble once I get it set up right. Okay, the tanks. No labels on them other than the manufactures label, the tanks are both 10"X48". Given this and my water info above, any pointers of what I should set this thing at? I really appreciate the help, I am pretty handy but for some reason these calculations and pins, and such just mystify me! :-)
PS, would my water be pretty good, medium or what would you give it as a rating? Those numbers don't mean much to me. Also is the chlorine number a lot, or a little? I did just buy a Kenmore self cleaning whole house filter which I am going to install in front of the softener.

Thanks a bunch for all your help guys,

John

Akpsdvan
03-17-2010, 10:23 AM
Most likely 1 cubic foot in each of the tanks under that Fleck 9000 for starts..

You are going to need to look at the base of the drain line and see if you can find a white lable ,, on it will be drain and brine injector.
Thouse numbers and going to be needed helping to set the meter and the pins that are in place right now.

What the Kenmore self cleaning filter?

jonjonbear
03-17-2010, 10:29 AM
Okay, will look on the valve. Are you trying to obtain the GPM of the brine fill? Will check when I get home. If there is no label is the a manual test I can do?

Yes, the Kenmore Elite central whole home filtration system. It looks really nice, has ten pounds of carbon and supposed to last for ten years. Was on sale for 349.99. Regens like a water softener. If it can pull the chlorine smell out of my water I will be happy. Don't have too much sediment.

John

Skip Wolverton
03-17-2010, 10:31 AM
Bastrop is known for having natural soft water I spend 13 yrs in water treatment in Austin. You don't really need a softener. But, if you want to use the softener, set it up for 2100 gallons at 6 lbs salt. The wheel with the pins is like a timer. Each hole or pin is 2 min and should say that on the wheel if it's 1 min per pin or 2. It turns counter clockwise. From the notch, count the first set of pins. Should be about 5 which is 10 min. The next set is empty (about 30 holes) or 60 mins. Then a set of (about) 5 pins or 10 mins. Another gap of holes and the last set of 2 pins. The amount of holes between the last 2 sets of pins is the salt dosage. Each hole is about (depending on the brine flow control) 1 gallon of water. So for 6 lbs salt usage, you need 2 holes. If you need someone to set it up and check out the entire system, lets me know. I have some good friends in Austin that are in the water treatment business.

Akpsdvan
03-17-2010, 10:45 AM
Okay, will look on the valve. Are you trying to obtain the GPM of the brine fill? Will check when I get home. If there is no label is the a manual test I can do?

Yes, the Kenmore Elite central whole home filtration system. It looks really nice, has ten pounds of carbon and supposed to last for ten years. Was on sale for 349.99. Regens like a water softener. If it can pull the chlorine smell out of my water I will be happy. Don't have too much sediment.

John

On the fitting that has the brine line and drain line there should be a lable, one number for the backwash number like 3 or 4 gpm and then there should be a white, or 0 , 00 injector then there should be a black one that says .5gpm on it for the brine...

In the front of the manual for the 9000 is a formula on figuring the numbers..

Say the unit with 9 lbs gives 22000 grains.. with your hardness of say 3grains...that would give 7000 gallons.. but then the number of gallons from cleaning would be subtracked from the 7000 gallons...

Large carbon filter.... ok.. How big is the tank on that carbon unit? How many bathrooms in the home?

It could last out to 10 years, but water usage , amount of chlorine in the water... any thing else that the carbon might take out will change the 10 year time frame... you could get 3 years, or 7 years... but yes carbon Will Take Out the Chlorine .

jonjonbear
03-17-2010, 10:51 AM
Thanks Skip,
I will check that out. I think there are several vacant holes in the brine fill section. I suspect with our water not being very hard, even the max 2100 setting might be too much. I have had a couple of neighbors tell me numbers between 3-4, I think because Aqua water pulls from so many different wells it might change depending on which ones I am getting water from so best to set for the highest but at 2100 sounds like that will be no problem. I think it's currently set around 14-1500, for the hard Vegas water. Probably why I am using so much potassium and seems like it regens a lot for two people.
Will check and repost what I find.
Thanks!
John

Akpsdvan
03-17-2010, 11:06 AM
60 gallons per person per day would be 120 for you, if the meter is for 1400 gallons that would be about 11 days between cleanings, or three times a month..
Make sure that the out side hoses are not getting treated, that will run the gallons up real fast..

On the brine refill , for 9 lbs 3 holes, 6 lbs 2 holes..

jonjonbear
03-17-2010, 11:08 AM
On the fitting that has the brine line and drain line there should be a lable, one number for the backwash number like 3 or 4 gpm and then there should be a white, or 0 , 00 injector then there should be a black one that says .5gpm on it for the brine...

In the front of the manual for the 9000 is a formula on figuring the numbers..

Say the unit with 9 lbs gives 22000 grains.. with your hardness of say 3grains...that would give 7000 gallons.. but then the number of gallons from cleaning would be subtracked from the 7000 gallons...

Large carbon filter.... ok.. How big is the tank on that carbon unit? How many bathrooms in the home?

It could last out to 10 years, but water usage , amount of chlorine in the water... any thing else that the carbon might take out will change the 10 year time frame... you could get 3 years, or 7 years... but yes carbon Will Take Out the Chlorine .

Okay will look at that fitting, hopefully it has the labels, seems like everything else is missing on this darn thing! Looks like given the numbers you mentioned, even at the lowest setting, it will be more than I need for my hardness.
On the filter, the tank looks to be about 26" tall, but I can't tell the circumference. The entire filter is about 36" tall. The tank is encased in a plastic outer tank sort of like a kenmore water softener. The parts list says:
Activated Carbon, 10lbs
Gravel, 6lbs
Filter sand, 5lbs.
Aqua lists our chlorine at 1.5 to 3.0 mg/l, is that a lot?

jonjonbear
03-17-2010, 11:11 AM
hmmm. 11 days. is it okay for it not to regen for that long? I keep reading they should regen at least once a week else the resin gets damaged, and this valve doesn't seem to have a clock on it so it must be completely water use..Yes outside bibs are separate, had the house built with a loop..

Akpsdvan
03-17-2010, 11:25 AM
hmmm. 11 days. is it okay for it not to regen for that long? I keep reading they should regen at least once a week else the resin gets damaged, and this valve doesn't seem to have a clock on it so it must be completely water use..Yes outside bibs are separate, had the house built with a loop..

You have no iron... so there is going to be a mixed school on the 11 days between cleanings...
The main challenge with the 11 days is a thing call channeling of the resin... low flow making channels in the resin..
You are right that the unit does not have a clock, it is meter driven... use the gallons and then is when it changes to the next tank.. like having 2 fuel tanks on the truck... do you change x days? or run til 1/4 tank then change?

The change to Digital that you where talking about would have a day default.. so it would clean say every 1500 gallons or every 9 days which ever came up first. that way if you have lots of people there the gallons kick in, if just the 2 of you the day kicks in...

You might try a month with the system off line and see how you like the water.... and how much extra cleaning one has to do with out the softener.. if skip is right about the water in that area you might only need the carbon to take out the chlorine and nothing else..

Akpsdvan
03-17-2010, 11:31 AM
Okay will look at that fitting, hopefully it has the labels, seems like everything else is missing on this darn thing! Looks like given the numbers you mentioned, even at the lowest setting, it will be more than I need for my hardness.
On the filter, the tank looks to be about 26" tall, but I can't tell the circumference. The entire filter is about 36" tall. The tank is encased in a plastic outer tank sort of like a kenmore water softener. The parts list says:
Activated Carbon, 10lbs
Gravel, 6lbs
Filter sand, 5lbs.
Aqua lists our chlorine at 1.5 to 3.0 mg/l, is that a lot?

chlorine is either Free or Total... if total is getting up to 3.0ppm that is up there and you will smell it like the public swimming pool....

10 lbs of carbon....is just under a .5 cubic foot of carbon...
My sizing of carbon is 1 cubic foot for every 6gpm , so if your house could hit 10gpm then you would have 2 cubic of carbon.. for the removal of the chlorine..

If the unit does not have the lables that I talk about, there is another way of finding out.. bit more of a challenge but it can be done. The book will be your next best friend...

jonjonbear
03-17-2010, 12:03 PM
I just went back and checked and he told me it was 1.5 to 3.0 mg/l free chlorine residual, is that better than total?

Thanks,
John

Akpsdvan
03-17-2010, 12:14 PM
I just went back and checked and he told me it was 1.5 to 3.0 mg/l free chlorine residual, is that better than total?

Thanks,
John

A little, I know that when sizing a system to inject Chlorine to treat some thing the Free Chlorine level to go for is 1.0 to 1.5ppm, so if yours is running between 1.5 and 3.0.. that to some would be high, but then think if the system that water is going through.. how many miles of pipe?

It would be good to test there at your place, your house might be on the high side because you are at the start, or it might be low if you are at the near or at the end of the water line.

jonjonbear
03-17-2010, 01:12 PM
Probably lots of miles. We are in a rural area and the coop services a large area from something like 21 wells..
I have some pool/spa test strips, and even an aquarium test kit. Maybe I will see what I am getting at the tap.

Bob999
03-17-2010, 01:15 PM
Free chlorine doesn't give a chlorine odor. It is the combined chlorine (chlorine that has partially oxidized organic material) that gives the chlorine odor). If you are doing a test at the home a high quality swimming pool test kit will have the appropriate chemicals to test for free and total chlorine. Alternatively most swimming pool supply stores will do the chlorine test for you. If the total chlorine is higher than the free chlorine then you will have chlorine odor.

jonjonbear
03-17-2010, 03:59 PM
On the fitting that has the brine line and drain line there should be a lable, one number for the backwash number like 3 or 4 gpm and then there should be a white, or 0 , 00 injector then there should be a black one that says .5gpm on it for the brine...

In the front of the manual for the 9000 is a formula on figuring the numbers..

Say the unit with 9 lbs gives 22000 grains.. with your hardness of say 3grains...that would give 7000 gallons.. but then the number of gallons from cleaning would be subtracked from the 7000 gallons...

Large carbon filter.... ok.. How big is the tank on that carbon unit? How many bathrooms in the home?

It could last out to 10 years, but water usage , amount of chlorine in the water... any thing else that the carbon might take out will change the 10 year time frame... you could get 3 years, or 7 years... but yes carbon Will Take Out the Chlorine .

Checked the tags. On the drain hose label, the amount has faded so I can't read that one.

On the brine hose fitting, it says ".50 gpm, 1.5 lb salt minimum"
Does this mean anything? I am going to try to attach pictures of my dial setting and pin wheel for your review.
I really appreciate all the help!
John

Akpsdvan
03-17-2010, 07:02 PM
Checked the tags. On the drain hose label, the amount has faded so I can't read that one.

On the brine hose fitting, it says ".50 gpm, 1.5 lb salt minimum"
Does this mean anything? I am going to try to attach pictures of my dial setting and pin wheel for your review.
I really appreciate all the help!
John

The part that you can read , the .5gpm is the flow rate back into the brine tank... that is good.
From what I can see in the pin/space settings,, 8 minute backwash. 60minutes on brine draw/rinse, 6 minute rapid rinse and 6 minutes or 9 lbs on the salt...

The Meter is at 1350 gallons with 1125 remaining before it trips into the next cycle.

Most likely there is a 2.0 gallon per minute backwash plug in the drain outlet...
With that in mind and the .5 gpm most likely in the brine draw/rinse part and the brine refill, you would use about 61-62 gallons in the full cleaning cycle..

So if the capacity of a tank says that it could do for example 2000 gallons, then I would subtrac 100 gallons, 62 for cleaning and the other 38 for the water usage while changing from one tank to the other..

Keep asking questions....

jonjonbear
03-17-2010, 07:28 PM
The part that you can read , the .5gpm is the flow rate back into the brine tank... that is good.
From what I can see in the pin/space settings,, 8 minute backwash. 60minutes on brine draw/rinse, 6 minute rapid rinse and 6 minutes or 9 lbs on the salt...

The Meter is at 1350 gallons with 1125 remaining before it trips into the next cycle.

Most likely there is a 2.0 gallon per minute backwash plug in the drain outlet...
With that in mind and the .5 gpm most likely in the brine draw/rinse part and the brine refill, you would use about 61-62 gallons in the full cleaning cycle..

So if the capacity of a tank says that it could do for example 2000 gallons, then I would subtrac 100 gallons, 62 for cleaning and the other 38 for the water usage while changing from one tank to the other..

Keep asking questions....

Sounds like I am getting closer to figuring this out thanks to you guys!
So do my pin settings look good? Given what you guys have told me, it sounds pretty good, maybe a bit heavy on the salt or no?
So should I set the gallons dial at 1900 and call that it or am I misunderstanding how this setting works?
Thanks so much for staying with me on this..

John

Akpsdvan
03-17-2010, 07:42 PM
Sounds like I am getting closer to figuring this out thanks to you guys!
So do my pin settings look good? Given what you guys have told me, it sounds pretty good, maybe a bit heavy on the salt or no?
So should I set the gallons dial at 1900 and call that it or am I misunderstanding how this setting works?
Thanks so much for staying with me on this..
John
Pin and space settings look good...
one thing that you might try for say a month or so is cut one space out of the brine refill... from 3 spaces to 2 spaces and change the meter from 1450 to 1900... then let things ride for a month or more and see how the water is... are there days that the water is a little hard? if there is then cut the gallons down 100-200 .. let that go for awhile again to see what happens to the hardness...

Are there times that the house fills up with people? goes from 2 to say 8 people ever?

Bob999
03-18-2010, 04:54 AM
If you experiment as Akpsdvan suggests just be aware that with a twin tank system that most changes you make in settings affect the regeneration of the current tank that won't come back into service for some time. In your case with 2 people in the house and typical water usage of 120 gallons per day and a setting of 1900 gallons a tank will last about 16 days so if you change the salt dose that won't do anything until the unit regenerates and then the regenerated tank won't come into service for another 16 days on average.

Gary Slusser
03-18-2010, 08:32 AM
I wouldn't set it up that way for 2 people and 3 gpg of hardness with no iron. Eleven or 16 days is too long between regenerations and it's using too much salt and water.

I don't recall the size of the tanks but I would do a regeneration of each tank with the max lbs of salt for the cuft of resin (15 lbs/cuft) and then program it based on 120 * 3 = 360 * 8 = 3K (3000/3= 1000 gals - those used per regeneration rounded down to the lower 25 gallons )and say 3 lbs of salt.

If you have a 2.0 gpm DLFC, you can remove it and see if there is a 2.0 or what the number is on it, that's the gpm. You can use the math formula in the manual to come up with the exact number of gallons used per regeneration (minutes times the DLFC gpm), and subtract them from the meter setting and round them down to the nearest 25 gallons. You do that because your meter dial is marked in 25 gallon increments.

And if you do the math right to get the programming right, you don't have to make a change and then use water for a few weeks or a month to see how it goes.

It doesn't matter how many people show up, however many use up the gallons on the meter faster than just the two of you normally do. The guests leave and you go back up to the on average once a week regeneration per tank. The down side of that is that your control valve does not do a purge rinse of the week old stagnant water, and in TX fairly warm water in the stand by tank before putting it into service. Frankly unless your household is using softened water 24/7, you don't need a twin tank softener and would be better off with a regular softener regenerating at 2 AM once every 7-9 days.

Your 10" x 48" is probably a 10 x 47, a 1.25 cuft (40K) per tank. Or an undersized 1.5 cuft.

jonjonbear
03-18-2010, 08:52 AM
Pin and space settings look good...
one thing that you might try for say a month or so is cut one space out of the brine refill... from 3 spaces to 2 spaces and change the meter from 1450 to 1900... then let things ride for a month or more and see how the water is... are there days that the water is a little hard? if there is then cut the gallons down 100-200 .. let that go for awhile again to see what happens to the hardness...

Are there times that the house fills up with people? goes from 2 to say 8 people ever?

That sounds like a good plan. We do get a houseful but not very often. Maybe one party a year, and during holidays sometimes more folks, otherwise just the two of us and all very water wise appliances and plumbing fixtures.

Thanks for all your help,
John

jonjonbear
03-18-2010, 11:39 AM
I wouldn't set it up that way for 2 people and 3 gpg of hardness with no iron. Eleven or 16 days is too long between regenerations and it's using too much salt and water.

I don't recall the size of the tanks but I would do a regeneration of each tank with the max lbs of salt for the cuft of resin (15 lbs/cuft) and then program it based on 120 * 3 = 360 * 8 = 3K (3000/3= 1000 gals - those used per regeneration rounded down to the lower 25 gallons )and say 3 lbs of salt.

If you have a 2.0 gpm DLFC, you can remove it and see if there is a 2.0 or what the number is on it, that's the gpm. You can use the math formula in the manual to come up with the exact number of gallons used per regeneration (minutes times the DLFC gpm), and subtract them from the meter setting and round them down to the nearest 25 gallons. You do that because your meter dial is marked in 25 gallon increments.

And if you do the math right to get the programming right, you don't have to make a change and then use water for a few weeks or a month to see how it goes.

It doesn't matter how many people show up, however many use up the gallons on the meter faster than just the two of you normally do. The guests leave and you go back up to the on average once a week regeneration per tank. The down side of that is that your control valve does not do a purge rinse of the week old stagnant water, and in TX fairly warm water in the stand by tank before putting it into service. Frankly unless your household is using softened water 24/7, you don't need a twin tank softener and would be better off with a regular softener regenerating at 2 AM once every 7-9 days.

Your 10" x 48" is probably a 10 x 47, a 1.25 cuft (40K) per tank. Or an undersized 1.5 cuft.

Thanks Gary,
But boy I am really confused now..Now I know what it was like trying to explain an auto repair to a not auto person :-)
I followed your calculation, up until the 3000/3. I didn't see that on your page, is that something you did because of my unusual situation? where does the division by 3 come from? I figured this unit is overkill but it was free.
One thing I can't find any info on is the timings for backwash, Brine/rinse, Rapid rinse timing settings. Only the brine fill. How do you calculate the necessary timing for these other steps? If I am reading my dial correctly, this is what I see:

Backwash-8 minutes (purpose of this to remove sediment?)
Brine/Rinse-64 minutes (wow that seems long)(so this sucks the brine solution from the brine tank until the brine tank valve closes, at which time this cycle becomes the rinse?)
Rapid rinse-6 minutes
Brine fill-6 minutes, @.50 per minute, does this mean 3 gallons and 3 lbs of salt? (does this seem light? Did I read you think this should be set at 22.50 based on your 15lb per cf media? Won't this really raise my salt use?)
With my light load, do I need to have a 64 minute brine/rinse? Seems with my small salt draw, that maybe this brine rinse is too long? (tapping for water savings here)
In the first part of your reply you said not to use the 2 person, 3 grain settings because it would use too much water and salt? This I don't understand, it would appear to me to use less, but not flush often enough which seems to be my biggest problem here, correct? Water sitting in the unused tank too long?
Please forgive all the questions, I can't believe this is so hard for me to grasp. Throw a car repair at me, or a computer and I am good but this stuff it tough for me. Thank goodness for folks like you all, the rest of us would really screw it up! :-)
I am just glad I didn't go in there and start re-arranging pins and timing without asking someone.
Second let me apologize for my long posts. I try to relay everything I thing pertinent but I am sure is exhausting to read.

Thanks,
John

Akpsdvan
03-18-2010, 11:58 AM
The first 1/3 of the brine draw/rinse is for the removal of the brine, the other 2/3 is a rinse..

With a twin one finds the capacity in gallons of a tank, and remove from that capacity in gallons the amount needed for cleaning and a little for the change over time.
The number of people will tell how long it is likely to be between cleaning cycles.

Your set up ,,, 1.0 cubic foot and the low end setting of capacity is more than what your meter at the high end.
There are challenges if the unit goes Too long... weeks not days between cleaning.. hardness is one thing, Iron is another.. With hardness one might get 15 days between cleanings with no problems, but with Iron in the water that number goes down..

One person and 1.0 ppm of iron the unit should be cleaning about every 5-7 days.... any more than that and the iron will start working through the media bed.
Others may say different, I can only go on what I have found around my area in the last 20 years of what works and does not work and time frames that work best.

Ask away, only through questions can one gain enlightment.....

jonjonbear
03-18-2010, 12:05 PM
I think I am okay on iron, my iron shows at 0.025 mg/l, sounds almost non existent so it looks like I have that in my favor. The way it is set up now it seems to regen quite often. Not sure how many gallons it uses but the little hose that is connected to the drain absolutely gushes water. I wish I could read that label on the fitting, it faded away..I guess I could get a bucket and test it. I have always been curious how much water this uses per cycle.

John

Akpsdvan
03-18-2010, 12:14 PM
I think I am okay on iron, my iron shows at 0.025 mg/l, sounds almost non existent so it looks like I have that in my favor. The way it is set up now it seems to regen quite often. Not sure how many gallons it uses but the little hose that is connected to the drain absolutely gushes water. I wish I could read that label on the fitting, it faded away..I guess I could get a bucket and test it. I have always been curious how much water this uses per cycle.

John
You say that you have the book, on page 26 or so, 9000 control valve assembly there is the number 12 that is the brine, drain assembly...
Unhook the drain line, unscrew the fitting that goes into the injector assembly , there may or may not be a retainer, if there is remove, and then remove that rubber washer... on that washer there is a number , it is a bit of a challenge to read but it will say 2.0 , 2.4 , 3.0.... that number is the gallon per minute back wash that will go through the hole that is in that washer...

Skip Wolverton
03-18-2010, 02:00 PM
Jon,
Here it is....A combustion engine a 4 cycles (intake, compression, combustion and exhaust) A softener has 4 basic cycle (backwash, brine, rinse and service.) An engine has a timing and so does a softener. The cycles of the softener are timed to insure proper functions, backwash about 10 min, brine about 60 min, rinse about 10 min. The engine has 2 valves (intake and exhaust). The softener has 1 (brine valve). It does 2 function per say. It draws the brine water into the resin tank and then fills the brine tank with water for the next cycle. So you see a softener is much like an engine.

jonjonbear
03-18-2010, 02:05 PM
Jon,
Here it is....A combustion engine a 4 cycles (intake, compression, combustion and exhaust) A softener has 4 basic cycle (backwash, brine, rinse and service.) An engine has a timing and so does a softener. The cycles of the softener are timed to insure proper functions, backwash about 10 min, brine about 60 min, rinse about 10 min. The engine has 2 valves (intake and exhaust). The softener has 1 (brine valve). It does 2 function per say. It draws the brine water into the resin tank and then fills the brine tank with water for the next cycle. So you see a softener is much like an engine.

Hah! Spoken in my language, I love it! :-)

So those timings are pretty standard for most installations? I feared my system was using like almost 200 gallons to regen, but I didn't realize until reading more carefully that half of the cycle and the longest part at that) goes through that .50 gpm brine outlet so I feel a bit better, now just need to pull the drain nipple and see what size/color ring is below it.
Ya'all are great help!
Thanks,

John

Akpsdvan
03-18-2010, 02:26 PM
That drain control will be black, but there is a number on one side of it... 2.0,2.4,3.0 etc...

A few more days or so and you will be a pro at this...

Skip Wolverton
03-18-2010, 02:34 PM
Hah! Spoken in my language, I love it! :-)

So those timings are pretty standard for most installations? I feared my system was using like almost 200 gallons to regen, but I didn't realize until reading more carefully that half of the cycle and the longest part at that) goes through that .50 gpm brine outlet so I feel a bit better, now just need to pull the drain nipple and see what size/color ring is below it.
Ya'all are great help!
Thanks,

John
During the brine draw the water passes through the venturi which is .33 gpm. So for the 60 min of brining, that's 19.8 gallons used. The .5 gpm is used for the refill. A fill at 4 min will be 2 gallons of water which will desolve 6 lbs salt. It seems so easy now doesn't it? LOL

Gary Slusser
03-18-2010, 11:37 PM
Thanks Gary,
But boy I am really confused now..Now I know what it was like trying to explain an auto repair to a not auto person :-)
I followed your calculation, up until the 3000/3. I didn't see that on your page, is that something you did because of my unusual situation? where does the division by 3 come from?

Backwash-8 minutes (purpose of this to remove sediment?)
Brine/Rinse-64 minutes (wow that seems long)(so this sucks the brine solution from the brine tank until the brine tank valve closes, at which time this cycle becomes the rinse?)
Rapid rinse-6 minutes

Brine fill-6 minutes, @.50 per minute, does this mean 3 gallons and 3 lbs of salt? (does this seem light? Did I read you think this should be set at 22.50 based on your 15lb per cf media? Won't this really raise my salt use?)
With my light load, do I need to have a 64 minute brine/rinse? Seems with my small salt draw, that maybe this brine rinse is too long? (tapping for water savings here)

In the first part of your reply you said not to use the 2 person, 3 grain settings because it would use too much water and salt?

Thanks,
John
This should help;
do a regeneration of each tank with the max lbs of salt for the cuft of resin (15 lbs/cuft) [use 23 lbs] and then program it based on [2 people * 60 gals/person/day=] 120 * 3 [gpg]= 360 [per day]* 8 [days] = [3000] 3K [3k=] 3000/3 [gpg, to get how many gallons between regenerations]= 1000 gals - [subtract] those [gals] used per regeneration rounded down to the lower 25 gallons) and say 3 lbs of salt.

I would set the minutes of each cycle position at; 6 minutes [3 pins] for backwash, 46 [23 holes] for brine draw/slow rinse, 4 [2 pins] for rapid rinse and 2 [holes] for refill, and then 2 pins and all holes back to the beginning. The 2 holes refill is 6 lbs but IIRC you can't go one hole because the contact switch finger doesn't do well with one hole or pin but I may be wrong on that. You get 3 lbs per gallon of refill and .5 gpm or 1.5 lbs per minute. The gallons you set on the meter divided by 120 = the number of days between regenerations.

Bob999
03-19-2010, 07:00 AM
In my experience the timing of brine fill on the electromechanical version of the Fleck 9000 valve is not very accurate. I suggest that after setting up the timer wheel you disconnect the brine line from the brine tank and measure the actual volume of brine fill.

Secondly, if you aren't able to set the brine fill to the amount you want you can buy a .25 gpm brine fill button so that each hole is nominally 1/2 gallon of water.

Gary Slusser
03-19-2010, 09:54 AM
Or he can use the larger volume of salt, about 3 lbs, because the cost of a lb of salt is like $.09 to $.11 and he is regenerating once every 8 days on average. And 46 8 day periods in a year * $.11 = $5.06 a year in additional salt.

Akpsdvan
03-19-2010, 11:36 AM
In my experience the timing of brine fill on the electromechanical version of the Fleck 9000 valve is not very accurate. I suggest that after setting up the timer wheel you disconnect the brine line from the brine tank and measure the actual volume of brine fill.

Secondly, if you aren't able to set the brine fill to the amount you want you can buy a .25 gpm brine fill button so that each hole is nominally 1/2 gallon of water.

I have done that,,, changed the brine flow control from .5 to the .25 left the pins the same and cut the gallons in half....