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Tater
03-10-2010, 12:43 PM
Hi Guys,

I've been trying to come up with a plan for weeks. I checked some other threads here with similar issues but I couldn't find anything definitive for my situation.

Background:
I'm in a Chicago suburb, two story townhouse built on a slab. The water main is in a storage space under the stairway which butts up to the neighbor's house and there is no drain in that area.

Two options I'm considering so far are:

1) Putting a softener in the 1st floor space under the stairs (where the main comes up through the slab) and pumping the discharge up a 9' exposed wall in the storage space. The line would have to run straight across in a joist space another 15 ft. and then up 2' more into the laundry room drain. The Liberty Pumps I've looked at seem to handle the flow and pressure needed to pump the discharge up and across. The problem is the output of the pump would have to be 1" 1/4 minimum which would be tricky to run. Also, the pump has a 2 year warranty no warning alarm in case the pump fails. This would flood my and some neighbors homes.

2) Run the two copper lines up the wall and across up into the laundry room. Space is very limited and I would have to build a rack (likely out of 1 "5/8 uni-strut) and suspend the softener from the ceiling and above the dryer.

I'd love to hear any other ideas or suggestions.

Thanks

Edit: I can't change the spelling error in the thread title

Peter Griffin
03-10-2010, 01:09 PM
What is the total vertical distance and the total length of the run to the drain?

Tater
03-10-2010, 02:12 PM
Total vertical would be 12' and the entire run would 30'-35'.

Akpsdvan
03-10-2010, 05:18 PM
One should not go more than 8' higher than the discharge point of the softener..
Run is a bit different... I have done 40-50' from level start to going down to drain point...

If the softener discharge is 4' off the floor, and then say 4' to go through the floor and then 4' up to the laundry drain point... that is close.... but should work... if you put the softener on some kind of plat form say 2' that would close the gap....

Gary Slusser
03-10-2010, 10:04 PM
Hi Guys,

I've been trying to come up with a plan for weeks. I checked some other threads here with similar issues but I couldn't find anything definitive for my situation.

Background:
I'm in a Chicago suburb, two story townhouse built on a slab. The water main is in a storage space under the stairway which butts up to the neighbor's house and there is no drain in that area.

Two options I'm considering so far are:

1) Putting a softener in the 1st floor space under the stairs (where the main comes up through the slab) and pumping the discharge up a 9' exposed wall in the storage space. The line would have to run straight across in a joist space another 15 ft. and then up 2' more into the laundry room drain. The Liberty Pumps I've looked at seem to handle the flow and pressure needed to pump the discharge up and across. The problem is the output of the pump would have to be 1" 1/4 minimum which would be tricky to run. Also, the pump has a 2 year warranty no warning alarm in case the pump fails. This would flood my and some neighbors homes.

2) Run the two copper lines up the wall and across up into the laundry room. Space is very limited and I would have to build a rack (likely out of 1 "5/8 uni-strut) and suspend the softener from the ceiling and above the dryer.

I'd love to hear any other ideas or suggestions.
With a Clack or Fleck control valve, from the drain line fitting on the control valve that the drain line attaches to, you can go up 6-7 feet and then sideways 30-40' and farther if you come back down some. You can increase the drain line ID to 3/4" or increase the DLFC in the control valve, or do both, to go up higher or farther sideways. So it depends on the size of the softener as to how high the drain line fitting will be. If you have a 1.5' or larger softener than 2' unit that drain line fitting will be about 5' off the floor, so a 9' ceiling and 2-3' more should be fine as long as you use one piece of regular PE tubing drain line instead of pipe/tubing and elbows.

Tater
03-11-2010, 07:15 AM
Here is the specific pump I was looking at: http://www.libertypumps.com/Products/Category/SubCategory/Product/?p=20&s=8&c=15

I called the company and they said it would handle the horizontal/vertical distance and it comes with the check valve. Having no alarm in case the pump fails is a big concern though.
Putting the softener on a riser would be no problem either if that would help.

Gary Slusser
03-11-2010, 10:05 AM
Here is the specific pump I was looking at: http://www.libertypumps.com/Products/Category/SubCategory/Product/?p=20&s=8&c=15

I called the company and they said it would handle the horizontal/vertical distance and it comes with the check valve. Having no alarm in case the pump fails is a big concern though.
Putting the softener on a riser would be no problem either if that would help.
You don't need a pump, your main waterline pressure moves the water through the drain line.

You don't need to raise the control valve either.

You do need to run the right type and size drain line or increase the gpm rating of the DLFC (drain line flow control) button slightly.

You do not want any restriction to the flow through a drain line, it is already flow controlled and restricting it will prevent proper backwashing and brining which all leads to resin failure.

Tater
03-11-2010, 10:53 AM
You don't need a pump, your main waterline pressure moves the water through the drain line.

You don't need to raise the control valve either.

You do need to run the right type and size drain line or increase the gpm rating of the DLFC (drain line flow control) button slightly.

You do not want any restriction to the flow through a drain line, it is already flow controlled and restricting it will prevent proper backwashing and brining which all leads to resin failure.

Oh my gosh, I'm embassed I didn't even think about the water main pressure being strong enough to push the water up 9'. What's odd is that no one I talk to (Culligan, Home Depot) even mentioned this.

I have zero plumbing experience but just so I'm clear about this:
The output from the water softener would have the same pressure as the main going in? And this would push the discharge up 9' and 15'-20' across?
I would not need anything in the vertical section that would prevent water from pushing back into the softener?
Would pex tubing work for the discharge line?

Thanks for the help so far, I just want to be suree I understand. Some of the terms used are new to me.

Akpsdvan
03-11-2010, 11:00 AM
When you use the up 9', that 9 is from where? from the floor? or from the discharge point of the softener?

Tater
03-11-2010, 11:18 AM
When you use the up 9', that 9 is from where? from the floor? or from the discharge point of the softener?

I don't have a specific softener picked out yet. The ceilings are 9' plus the space betwwen the joists to get up through the floor into the laundry room. I was kind of guessing that the height of the discharge would make up for the difference of the joist space.

Peter Griffin
03-11-2010, 11:21 AM
If the run was shorter, pex would be ok, though a bit pricey for the application. Size is also an issue as even though pex comes in big diameters, 3/4" is about the maximum that a homeowner can handle. Better off with pvc. Its lots cheaper and easy to run.

Akpsdvan
03-11-2010, 11:26 AM
I don't have a specific softener picked out yet. The ceilings are 9' plus the space betwwen the joists to get up through the floor into the laundry room. I was kind of guessing that the height of the discharge would make up for the difference of the joist space.

If the softener that you get has its discharge point 5' off the floor, then about 4' to the floor and another 4' from floor to the washer drain box.. 3/4 pvc would work great...
You should put a check valve in that drain line just after it leaves the softener so that if for some reason you need to remove the softener the water in the drain does not come out, or if there is a back up in the washer box drain it will not go into the softener..

Gary Slusser
03-11-2010, 12:09 PM
Oh my gosh, I'm embassed I didn't even think about the water main pressure being strong enough to push the water up 9'. What's odd is that no one I talk to (Culligan, Home Depot) even mentioned this.

I have zero plumbing experience but just so I'm clear about this:
The output from the water softener would have the same pressure as the main going in? And this would push the discharge up 9' and 15'-20' across?
I would not need anything in the vertical section that would prevent water from pushing back into the softener?
Would pex tubing work for the discharge line?
Water pressure pushes water up to second floor showers, sinks, tubs etc. all the time. Culligan guys know this but probably not big box store guys.

At your max flow rate there will be only a few lbs of pressure lost across a correctly sized softener. And the main line water pressure will push the water through a properly constructed drain line as I mentioned before. PVC unless 3/4" is not a good choice, the same for CPVC or copper. Use regular PE drain line tubing or 3/4" PEX if it will bend OK without elbows.

I say no check valve in the drain line. They require a number of lbs of pressure to just open one plus the pressure loss through them. So do not reduce the gpm flow through the drain line. If you need to remove the drain line fitting, remove the fitting without taking the drain line off it and let the water in the drain line flow into a bucket that you hold up under it as you take it off the control valve.

There is a brine valve in all Clack and Fleck softener control valves (you should buy a Clack WS-1 CS version) and you can't push water back through that valve unless you depressurize the softener AND open that valve by hand or operating the control valve into the backwash, brine draw or rinse.

You said the space has a 9' ceiling, that is usually measured from the floor. So the connection on the control valve of the softener will be about 60" (5') off the floor, so the ceiling is 4" higher, plus the joist area and the 2-3' up to the drain you want to use.

Tater
03-11-2010, 12:16 PM
If the run was shorter, pex would be ok, though a bit pricey for the application. Size is also an issue as even though pex comes in big diameters, 3/4" is about the maximum that a homeowner can handle. Better off with pvc. Its lots cheaper and easy to run.

I priced some pex and it would be more expensive, but depending on how flexible 3/4 is it might mean the difference between not having to cut drywall in the ceiling.

Peter Griffin
03-11-2010, 12:30 PM
3/4 PE is very flexible also and a lot less money than pex. I'm not trying to talk you out of pex because I don't like it though, just because of the expense and the special tools needed.

Akpsdvan
03-11-2010, 12:39 PM
Finished Basement?

It can be a little tricky ... I my self would find a spot in the floor of the laundry room say the corner behind the washer and drill down, take it very slow, first through the floor, make sure that there are no wires ,, pipe... and then go through the next layer... then all that you have to do is run a straight 3/4 up through the hole that you made..

Then do elbows needed to make the run to the drain and the softener.

Tater
03-11-2010, 01:00 PM
Hi guys,

I think I'm not understanding this correctly or I'm confused by the terminology. The house is on a slab and the water main comes up through the slab (no basement), there's a shut-off valve then it goes right back down into the slab and then who knows where. What I need to run up the wall and across into a 2nd floor laundry room is the salty/waste water, there is no drain near by on the first floor. Is this pressure equal to the water main pressure?

Akpsdvan
03-11-2010, 01:08 PM
If there is a faucet on the first floor or main floor and it has 50psi, then any faucet on the second floor should have the same 50psi...

The two rooms in question are not right over each other?

Where is comes up through the floor ,, that is for the shut off valve, then it goes back down to go to the different faucets on the first floor and then some place it goes up to the second floor..

The drain line will have the city water pressure coming out, be it 50psi or 60psi..

Tater
03-11-2010, 01:15 PM
If there is a faucet on the first floor or main floor and it has 50psi, then any faucet on the second floor should have the same 50psi...

The two rooms in question are not right over each other?

Where is comes up through the floor ,, that is for the shut off valve, then it goes back down to go to the different faucets on the first floor and then some place it goes up to the second floor..

The drain line will have the city water pressure coming out, be it 50psi or 60psi..

2 story townhouse, sits on a slab. The water main comes up through the slab and then goes right back down again. I would need to cut into that for the water softener. There is no drain there so whatever waste/salt water normally needs to drain out of a water softener is what I need to get upstairs to the laundry room drain.

Akpsdvan
03-11-2010, 01:18 PM
No laundry tub on the first floor?

Tater
03-11-2010, 01:21 PM
No laundry tub on the first floor?

No, and the 1st floor kitchen and bathroom are across the hall. There's really no access at all to those. It has to get upstairs to the laundry room drain.

Akpsdvan
03-11-2010, 01:26 PM
And the one room is not above the other.............

What kind of room are you thinking of putting the softener in?

Tater
03-11-2010, 01:32 PM
And the one room is not above the other.............

What kind of room are you thinking of putting the softener in?

Please read the initial post in this thread so I don't have to re-type it again.

Akpsdvan
03-11-2010, 02:12 PM
To bad that the drain from the washer does not run down through that open wall that you talk about under the stairs..

Tater
03-11-2010, 02:21 PM
To bad that the drain from the washer does not run down through that open wall that you talk about under the stairs..

Yeah, that would do it. Going up is the only way out.
I'd still like to know if the waste/salt water that normally drains out of a softener is pressurized or not.

Akpsdvan
03-11-2010, 02:24 PM
Pressured,... it is coming from a pressurized source.

Skip Wolverton
03-11-2010, 02:35 PM
Yes it is pressurized, but the flow is reduced when going uphill and will prevent a brine draw if the raise is too far (over 8" rise from the discharge point).

Tater
03-11-2010, 02:39 PM
Yes it is pressurized, but the flow is reduced when going uphill and will prevent a brine draw if the raise is too far (over 8" rise from the discharge point).

Thank you Skip, I was getting confused there.

Gary Slusser
03-11-2010, 03:18 PM
Yes it is pressurized, but the flow is reduced when going uphill and will prevent a brine draw if the raise is too far (over 8" rise from the discharge point).
Di you mean to say 8" (inches), or 8' (feet)?

zl700
03-11-2010, 03:27 PM
Someone mentioned a check valve on the drain line. You cant do that it has to go to a open drain with proper air gap

Peter Griffin
03-11-2010, 03:33 PM
sure you can ( you shouldn't) but you can put a check at the softener and still drop the drain pipe into an indirect receptacle.

zl700
03-11-2010, 07:47 PM
A check with an indirect drain would be a waste of time, if you use a air gap, nothing could back up the line if the softener was removed as previously suggested.

Fleck states:
Never connect the drain line directly into a drain. Allow an air-gap between the drain line and waste line to prevent possibility of back- siphon

Akpsdvan
03-11-2010, 08:05 PM
The one that gets me is the Sears book that shows either the drain line going to the floor drain or into a laundry tub....

Skip Wolverton
03-12-2010, 05:32 AM
Di you mean to say 8" (inches), or 8' (feet)?
Thanks Gary. It is 8 feet.

Peter Griffin
03-12-2010, 05:49 AM
The one that gets me is the Sears book that shows either the drain line going to the floor drain or into a laundry tub....

Both are acceptable by national codes. I wonder if he can just let it dump outside? which may or may not be acceptable depending on what, and where you are dumping it. ( really pisses the missus when you kill her bagonias :) )

Tater
03-12-2010, 06:15 AM
Thanks Gary. It is 8 feet.

In my case I can't dump it outside due to freezing.

Gary Slusser
03-12-2010, 12:59 PM
Follow my instructions and you'll be fine.

Tater
03-13-2010, 09:16 PM
In my case I can't dump it outside due to freezing.

Thanks Gary and everyone else that helped. I thought I would add to this thread rather than starting a new one since it explains most of the issues.
I now need a recomendation for a Softener. There are two and a half baths but one full bath is in a spare bedroom that is never used. It's only me and my wife here.
The units I've looked at in Home Depot and Sears have a barbed shaft for the wastewater discharge. It looks like about a 1/2" tube would fit over it. A 3/4 inch PE was recomended earlier in the thread but would I have to add a special fitting to upsize and is upsizing necessary?

I'm extra worried about getting this right because I have to pick out and buy a Softener first and have a friend come over (hopefully next weekend) and run the waste line up and through the ceiling. Once the Softener is in place I need to have a Plumber come over to cut into the main and hook up the Softener so everything needs to be in place and working.

Thanks in advance.

Peter Griffin
03-13-2010, 09:21 PM
I try and stay away from equipment sold at big box stores. The valve bodies are poorly designed and manufactured and those units seldom last much longer than 5 years or so. If you are going to install it youself then look for either Clack ( the WS-1, not the EE ) or a Fleck valve. You have to decide on demand metered or not but I highly recommend a demand metered valve. They save salt and are very easy to program and service. If you don't like electronics then a Fleck 5600 will serve well. There are a whole bunch of online dealers that will be more than happy to help you out.

Akpsdvan
03-13-2010, 09:48 PM
Sears, GE, Polar Star are All The Same Units,, package might be different, but the valves are The Same..

Gary Slusser
03-13-2010, 10:47 PM
Thanks Gary and everyone else that helped. I thought I would add to this thread rather than starting a new one since it explains most of the issues.

I now need a recomendation for a Softener. There are two and a half baths but one full bath is in a spare bedroom that is never used. It's only me and my wife here.
The units I've looked at in Home Depot and Sears have a barbed shaft for the wastewater discharge. It looks like about a 1/2" tube would fit over it. A 3/4 inch PE was recomended earlier in the thread but would I have to add a special fitting to upsize and is upsizing necessary?

I'm extra worried about getting this right because I have to pick out and buy a Softener first and have a friend come over (hopefully next weekend) and run the waste line up and through the ceiling. Once the Softener is in place I need to have a Plumber come over to cut into the main and hook up the Softener so everything needs to be in place and working.

Thanks in advance.
The Kenmore, the GE at Home Depot and the Whirlpool at Lowe's are all made by the same company and have many interchangeable parts except for the cabinets. They are not a good choice because they do don't last very long but none of them is going to work with you drain line situation. Only Clack and Fleck and some Autotrol valves will.

I suggest a correctly sized softener based on the family size, number of bathrooms and the type of fixtures in them. It should have a Clack WS-1 CS version valve. If you bought it online from me it should ship Monday and be anywhere in the lower 48 Tuesday to Friday; shipped from a warehouse in the east, midwest or west.

Tater
03-13-2010, 10:51 PM
Thanks, I forgot to mention that the water in my town is horrible. Very hard and lots of lime. I will be bringing a sample in to Sears, they will test it for free and I'll post the results.
The water in this town is notorious though so I expect the worse.
Assuming it's really bad, do your recommendations still stand or do you need test results?

Gary Slusser
03-13-2010, 11:00 PM
You need test results to size and program the control valve.

Akpsdvan
03-13-2010, 11:21 PM
From what you have told so far a 1.5 cubic foot unit with a quality valve will do nicely for your house.
Any thing over 1.5 is over kill unless you have 5 bathrooms and 8 people.

Tater
03-14-2010, 12:31 AM
I'm not familiar with the term "control valve". Sorry for the rookie questions but I haven't seen that list on the units I've looked at.

Akpsdvan
03-14-2010, 12:58 AM
That is what Fleck , Clack, Autrol make to put on top of the media tank,
Fleck 5600 , 2510
Autrol 155, 244
Clack WS1.25
Are some of the controls that are used
They are day cleaning , meter cleaning,, meaning that every number of days they clean or meter counts down and then it cleans.

Skip Wolverton
03-14-2010, 07:50 AM
The control valve is the heart of the system. It sits on top of the tank and regenerates (cleans) the resin when needed. Fleck, Clack, and Autotrol are all control valves. When we say Sears, Lowes or big box store, we are talking about the complete system but the valve is not very good and you might get only 5 yrs use out of it. I don't like electronics on softeners so I recommend the Fleck 5600 whereas others will recommend the Clack system. Either valve will give you yrs of good service. I wouldn't worry about the drain line freezing if it is done right. You can design it so there is no standing water which means it will not freeze.

Peter Griffin
03-14-2010, 08:13 AM
Skip. I have done a few drains right out the side of the house so to speak and while the line itself does not freeze, you have to watch out that you are not creating an ice rink where the thing dumps.

Skip Wolverton
03-14-2010, 08:37 AM
Skip. I have done a few drains right out the side of the house so to speak and while the line itself does not freeze, you have to watch out that you are not creating an ice rink where the thing dumps.
Oh come on. You take all the fun out of it. I was referring to a french drain with an anti siphon so no water is left in the drain line.

Tater
03-14-2010, 12:27 PM
My wife is bringing a water sample to Sears tonight for testing. I'll post the results this evening.

Akpsdvan
03-14-2010, 12:50 PM
This should be good, wonder how many peices of equipment they are going to try and sell her...

Tater
03-14-2010, 03:09 PM
Ok, they told her the water hardness is 21.

Akpsdvan
03-14-2010, 03:16 PM
Bathrooms and number of people again?
Hardness was it?

Tater
03-14-2010, 04:18 PM
2 and a half baths, but only me and the wife here. One of the full bathrooms never gets used. We both work so we are gone 10+ hours a day during the week.

Akpsdvan
03-14-2010, 04:50 PM
1.5 cubic foot unit, 9 lbs salt, meter at 1300 with day over ride maybe at 9 days..
That is me if the unit has an computer..
If no computer say the 2510 meter... then 1300 gallons.

Tater
03-14-2010, 08:57 PM
Can anyone recommend a specific model to me? The numbers in the previous post are over my head.

Akpsdvan
03-14-2010, 09:28 PM
Fleck 2510 meter with 10x54 tank and 1.5 cubic foot of resin..

Would be my choice...

Gary Slusser
03-14-2010, 11:56 PM
Can anyone recommend a specific model to me? The numbers in the previous post are over my head.
I suggest my 1.5 cuft with a Clack WS-1 CS version control valve. I give my customer the programming data when they order. That programming includes the instruction of how to get into the secret dealer's side of the computer that the majority of my competitors do not give their customers.

Peter Griffin
03-15-2010, 04:30 AM
Non topical content

Tater
03-15-2010, 09:49 AM
I suggest my 1.5 cuft with a Clack WS-1 CS version control valve. I give my customer the programming data when they order. That programming includes the instruction of how to get into the secret dealer's side of the computer that the majority of my competitors do not give their customers.

1.5 cuft would be large enough and be able to handle the hardness level of 21? Also, would I have to buy a Clack separate and install that too? I have no idea what that is but I will google it.

Akpsdvan
03-15-2010, 09:53 AM
A 1.5 cubic foot would at 9lbs have 33,000 grain capacity and with 21 grains, that would be about 1200 gallons before cleaning.

Any unit that you buy should be complete, valve(clack or fleck), bypass, media tank with 1.5 cubic feet of resin, brine tank with safety float..

Peter Griffin
03-15-2010, 11:21 AM
I have seen a Clask-WS-1 complete for under 500 bucks including shipping on the web. That's a whole lot cheaper than I would sell it to you for :)

Gary Slusser
03-15-2010, 12:31 PM
It's not all that secret, anyone can get it online at Clacks web site Down-Next-Up-Set Clock and you are in.
You should go read that again, because now you're sounding as if you've never programmed a Clack WS-1. After checking quite frequently, I'm the only one that I can find that will give the customer the data to change the defaults from, and that is not on their web site.

That $500.00 you mention.... post the link and show us where you found that.

Peter Griffin
03-15-2010, 12:36 PM
Non topical content

Akpsdvan
03-15-2010, 12:47 PM
Right turn Clyde............................

Both Clack and Fleck have on their web sites the sub programing to the CS or SXT.... so while a company may not send that page with the manual, they are out there... it is Culligan and Eco water that do not have the Service Tech level out for the public to find.

One of the reasons that I like the 2510 with the non computer, it is simple, move pins around , add or remove pins spaces... and it is done.. no searching for a programing page to get to the sub level of programing.

Peter Griffin
03-15-2010, 12:56 PM
You want agravating. I have an ILO (wal-mart) brand dvd/vhs recorder that I lost the remote for. It is all but impossible to get any of the fit's all remotes to work without the code and I can't find that code anywhere. Argggggg. Electronics will be the death of us all, mark my words. ;)

Tater
03-15-2010, 01:31 PM
I don't think we are allowed to post links but if you google clack ws-1 and check the first few listings you can find three companies selling them for under 5 bills with shipping.

Right off Clacks Web Site, Quoted below.

These procedures can be accessed in any order. Details on each of the procedures are provided on the following pages.
At the discretion of the manufacturer, the field technician can access all settings. To “lock out” access to diagnostic and valve
history displays and modifications to settings except hardness, day override, time of regeneration and time of day by anyone
but the manufacturer, press ▼, NEXT, ▲, and SET CLOCK in sequence after settings are made. To “unlock”, so other
displays can be viewed and changes can be made, press ▼, NEXT, ▲, and SET CLOCK in sequence.

The cheapest I could find are $622 and that is anly a 24,000 grain. Was it a 33,000 grain you saw for under $500?

Peter Griffin
03-15-2010, 02:45 PM
Try qualitywaterforless.com

Skip Wolverton
03-15-2010, 05:12 PM
I believe I can sell a 1.5 cf system for $500.00 delivered.

Gary Slusser
03-15-2010, 11:12 PM
Right turn Clyde............................

Both Clack and Fleck have on their web sites the sub programing to the CS or SXT.... so while a company may not send that page with the manual, they are out there... .One of the reasons that I like the 2510 with the non computer, it is simple, move pins around , add or remove pins spaces... and it is done.. no searching for a programing page to get to the sub level of programing.
I said data, there is nothing about how to develop the data in any manual.

But what is "sub programming"?

Whatever it is does not apply to the Clack WS-1. There is only 2 parts to programming a Clack WS-1; the consumer side and the dealer side of the programming. There is no "sub programming". The data is like how many minutes to set the pins for on a 2510. Unless a dealer tells the customer, there is no way to find how to determine how many minutes for each section of pins and holes, or no manual to use to find out what they should be.

Gary Slusser
03-15-2010, 11:36 PM
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Peter Griffin http://www.terrylove.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?p=252483#post252483)
I don't think we are allowed to post links but if you google clack ws-1 and check the first few listings you can find three companies selling them for under 5 bills with shipping.

Right off Clacks Web Site, Quoted below.

These procedures can be accessed in any order. Details on each of the procedures are provided on the following pages.
At the discretion of the manufacturer, the field technician can access all settings. To “lock out” access to diagnostic and valve
history displays and modifications to settings except hardness, day override, time of regeneration and time of day by anyone
but the manufacturer, press ▼, NEXT, ▲, and SET CLOCK in sequence after settings are made. To “unlock”, so other
displays can be viewed and changes can be made, press ▼, NEXT, ▲, and SET CLOCK in sequence.[/quote]

I just did that search and can not find a 1.5 cuft with a Clack WS-1 delivered, or without shipping, for the $500 you mentioned.

There is no mention of how to develop the data to program the dealer's side of the computer. There is no information in any Clack manual that explains how to develop the data to program a Clack to.

The valve does not come locked.



The cheapest I could find are $622 and that is only a 24,000 grain. Was it a 33,000 grain you saw for under $500?
The only one I could find for less than $500 was a HALF cuft. And that includes the link that was posted.

Akpsdvan
03-15-2010, 11:41 PM
I said data, there is nothing about how to develop the data in any manual.

But what is "sub programming"?

Whatever it is does not apply to the Clack WS-1. There is only 2 parts to programming a Clack WS-1; the consumer side and the dealer side of the programming. There is no "sub programming". The data is like how many minutes to set the pins for on a 2510. Unless a dealer tells the customer, there is no way to find how to determine how many minutes for each section of pins and holes, or no manual to use to find out what they should be.

There is 2 levels of programing is there not?

For changing any of the cleaning times or cycles on the 2510, starting on page 6 of the fleck model 2510 &2510 econominder service manual that is on the fleck site along with Every unit that I sell..

Gary Slusser
03-15-2010, 11:57 PM
There is 2 levels of programing is there not?

For changing any of the cleaning times or cycles on the 2510, starting on page 6 of the fleck model 2510 &2510 econominder service manual that is on the fleck site along with Every unit that I sell..
No, there are two parts not levels; the dealer's side and the consumer's side. The consumer has 4 fields, the hardness, calendar override day, the hour and the minutes for the time to start a regeneration. The dealer has about 12 fields. And every control valve has a service manual and there is nothing in the Clack distributors' manuals about programming the dealer's side. The same as there is nothing in any Fleck manual about how to figure out how many minutes to set the pins and holes for for backwash and rinse etc..

Peter Griffin
03-16-2010, 03:27 AM
Tater, I PM'd you a couple of those sites rather than post the links here. Though you can access the dealer side of a WS-1 the chances that you would ever have to are just about zero so don't let that be an issue in your valve selection.

Bob999
03-16-2010, 06:42 AM
Tater, you can get advice from posters on this boad about what settings to use in your new water softener. So the fact that the valve manufacturers don't teach how to develop the settings is not a real problem.

Tater
03-16-2010, 08:02 AM
Thanks for all the help guys. I think I've narrowed it down to the Clack. I'll post when I order it.

Gary Slusser
03-16-2010, 07:38 PM
Tater, I PM'd you a couple of those sites rather than post the links here.
Google can not find your 1.5 cuft with a Clack WS-1 of any version for $500 including shipping. Post the links here to prove your claim.


Though you can access the dealer side of a WS-1 the chances that you would ever have to are just about zero so don't let that be an issue in your valve selection.
That is flat out false. And now for sure you prove you don't know anything about programming a Clack WS-1.

You are saying to use the default settings in the dealer's side of the computer.

Without getting into the dealer's side of the programming, you can't change the default settings for the K of capacity, the salt dose lbs used per regeneration, the minutes each of the cycle positions run for, the gallons used between regenerations etc .etc..

And you need to do that whenever a child leaves or arrives or the hardness gpg is changed etc..

Peter Griffen, what are the default settings that you say are OK to use?

Tater
03-19-2010, 08:24 AM
Quick question since I'll be running the waste line on Sunday. The spec sheet for the Clack says a 1/2" connects to the waste fitting. With the distance and vertical lengths I'm running would I need to up-size this to 3/4"?

Peter Griffin
03-19-2010, 08:51 AM
yes you should

Tater
03-19-2010, 09:34 AM
Thanks. Do they make converters for PE so it would fit over the 1/2" stem on the Softener?

Bob999
03-19-2010, 10:38 AM
Thanks. Do they make converters for PE so it would fit over the 1/2" stem on the Softener?

Not that I am aware of but you can buy a fitting that is 3/4" IPS male to 3/4 barb and use it in place of the 3/4" IPS by 1/2 barb that comes with the softener.

Tater
03-19-2010, 12:51 PM
Great, thank you.

Gary Slusser
03-20-2010, 10:37 AM
Thanks. Do they make converters for PE so it would fit over the 1/2" stem on the Softener?
There is no 1/2" stem on a Clack control valve.

If you use regular and industry standard 5/8" OD PE (commonly but mistakenly called 1/2") drain line, you must buy the insert/barbed fitting it requires or the proper fitting has to come with the softener as an 'extra'. I would not use 3/4" PE or PEX unless you can run it without seriously bending it.

BTW, the link to affordablewater... they are not selling the CS version and there are errors in their installation instructions. And their K of capacity and salt dose chart is going to have you setting the highest capacity and the most inefficient (lowest) salt dose setting.

hj
03-20-2010, 01:53 PM
I can't believe a simple question like this has generated 6 pages of replies. As long as the drain elevation is not so high as to interfere with the brine injector's aspirator, and I have piped the disharge up onto the roof and over to a plumbing vent line, it will work.

Peter Griffin
03-20-2010, 02:13 PM
Threads over here tend to run long :)

Gary Slusser
03-21-2010, 04:20 PM
I can't believe a simple question like this has generated 6 pages of replies. As long as the drain elevation is not so high as to interfere with the brine injector's aspirator, and I have piped the disharge up onto the roof and over to a plumbing vent line, it will work.
HJ, no resin or control valve manufacturer would support doing that unless you changed the injector, injector throat in some control valves AND the DLFC (drain line flow control) AND the ID of the drain line.

That is the basis of 6 pages of discussion, we can't agree on the maximum height or the minimum ID for the drain line the OP should use so his softener will remove all the hardness now and into the distant future.