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TWEAK
03-07-2010, 10:05 PM
Hi,

I have a 48000 grain Fleck 7000 system. Due to kids growing up and moving out, it's now just me, and my water use is way down. I seem to remember hearing or reading somewhere that you should regenerate every 7 days even if you don't need to. According to the display on the Fleck I am nowhere close to needing to regenerate, but I have the meter set to regenerate every 7 days.

Is this true that you should regenerate every 7 days? Can anyone explain what happens if you don't? My system seems to be very low on salt usage - seems like maybe only 5 pounds per month - but I feel guilty about wasting the water, since I'm in an area where we have problems and try to conserve. I do feel strongly that I need the softener since my local water company provides well water at 20-23 grains and I know that the deposits crud up everything without it. That was the main reason for installing he softener in the first place.

Thank you!

Akpsdvan
03-07-2010, 10:32 PM
Is there any iron in the water?
What salt setting or how many minutes is set for the brine refill on the 7000?
If you are running 9 lbs and 33000 capicity on the unit and one person , you could have 1200 gallons on the meter and a defalt day setting of 14 and it should be good.
If there is iron let me know that will change the numbers..

With either gallons or days what will happen is that if you have family over for awhile then the gallons will trip it into a cleaning cycle, while by your self the day counter will most likely over ride it..

Seven day in my view is more when there is Iron in the water, even a little say .6ppm... then there needs to be a shorted time frame.

TWEAK
03-07-2010, 11:15 PM
Thank you! I'll call the water company and get the iron level, and if there is some I'll let you know. The settings on the 7000 right now are the factory defaults - the place I got the unit from said it was pre-programmed and best to leave it alone. If no iron, I'll go ahead and put in your numbers. Thanks again.

Akpsdvan
03-07-2010, 11:24 PM
Did you get all the information and programing for the 7000?
PM if you need them and I can get them to you , Programing is not that hard, there is a flow chart to follow and a step by step guide to change a few of the number settings.
There are some that you will NOT change..

TWEAK
03-08-2010, 12:00 AM
I think I have it all... its been a couple years, I will have to dig it out of the file cabinet in the morning. If it's hiding, I'll pm you. I remember the flow chart, I think... it was printed on peach colored paper or something like that? I'll get the iron data and post back if there's iron. Thanks again, I really, really appreciate all your help. It's great that you devote so much time to helping folks out.

Akpsdvan
03-08-2010, 10:26 AM
The peach color or orange color sounds right for the programing insert...

Gary Slusser
03-08-2010, 10:38 AM
Hi, I have a 48000 grain Fleck 7000 system. Due to kids growing up and moving out, it's now just me, and my water use is way down. I seem to remember hearing or reading somewhere that you should regenerate every 7 days even if you don't need to. According to the display on the Fleck I am nowhere close to needing to regenerate, but I have the meter set to regenerate every 7 days.

Is this true that you should regenerate every 7 days? Can anyone explain what happens if you don't? My system seems to be very low on salt usage - seems like maybe only 5 pounds per month - but I feel guilty about wasting the water, since I'm in an area where we have problems and try to conserve. I do feel strongly that I need the softener since my local water company provides well water at 20-23 grains and I know that the deposits crud up everything without it. That was the main reason for installing he softener in the first place. Thank you!
Resin and water use usually does best if you regenerate every 7-9 days. Going longer allows a build up of invisible dirt on the resin beads and that's not good for it.

I see below in another post that you are using the default settings. Your K of capacity and salt dose lbs will not be right, and the time/minutes the cycle positions of the regeneration runs for will be too high.

With one person at 60 gals/day times 23 gpg = 1380*8 days = 11040 rounded to 12K, you need to set the salt dose to 4 lbs. Four lbs at the rate of .5 gpm or 1.5 lbs/minute is 6 minutes of Fill time.

Get into the programming and post the data in each field and we'll go over it for you.

City water rarely has any iron it after it is treated at the plant and especially if the water is chlorinated.

If you bought the softener online, tell us who you bought it from to help others.

Bob999
03-08-2010, 02:14 PM
With one person at 60 gals/day times 23 gpg = 1380*8 days = 11040 rounded to 12K, you need to set the salt dose to 4 lbs. Four lbs at the rate of .5 gpm or 1.5 lbs/minute is 6 minutes of Fill time.



I think Gary meant to say that with a fill rate of .5 gpm the needed fill time to get 4 lbs of salt is 2.67 minutes. A 6 minute fill time would give 3 gallons of water and 9 lbs of salt.

TWEAK
03-08-2010, 05:58 PM
Yes, thanks to all. I did confirm no iron in the water.

I was able to find all the original paperwork including the programming info flowchart (a miracle!). Can't find the receipt though.... I did get it online.... I don't remember where. Few more places I can look.

Due to work issues... won't get to actually playing with the program for a few days, or maybe the weekend.

I hope I can resurrect this thread then?

Maybe in the meantime, would any of you experts be able to point to some generic information that would actually describe what all the various setting on that valve actually mean? In other words, I don't understand the stages of the regeneration cycle. I guess there's no reason that I would need to, but I'm curious. The valve seems to go through several steps that make up the regeneration process, but the details of the process aren't actually decribed anywhere in my paperwork.

Thanks again to all!

Akpsdvan
03-08-2010, 06:50 PM
There is a manual to another valve from the company that makes your 7000 , it is a 5600 and in that book is shows the different stages to the service and cleaning stages..

Bob999
03-08-2010, 07:00 PM
Here is a link to the service manual for the Fleck 7000 valve. See pages 35-38 for diagrams of the water flow for each cycle of the valve.

http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/PentairFiles/Pentair%20Water%20Treatment/Manuals/7000SXT%20Service%20Manual%2042775.pdf

Gary Slusser
03-08-2010, 09:50 PM
I think Gary meant to say that with a fill rate of .5 gpm the needed fill time to get 4 lbs of salt is 2.67 minutes. A 6 minute fill time would give 3 gallons of water and 9 lbs of salt.
Yes it should be 3 minutes.

TWEAK
03-08-2010, 10:17 PM
Thank you yet again, gents!

TWEAK
04-21-2010, 09:13 AM
Hi Guys,

Sorry for the long delay - I've been distracted by other committments.

When I first posted, the cam option was "downflow" - DF. I noticed that there was very little water in the brine tank. In fact, it was literally barely up to the grid or possibly even a tad below it. Is this why I was getting such low salt usage? I do get much reduced hard water buildup at the fixtures, , but still see significant water spotting. To me the water hasn't felt nearly as "slick" as I expect. Has my effective salt dose just been way too little due to the low water level??

I know the regen cycles are happening. I did go through a manual regen yesterday and confirm that the valve is moving water around as it should.

Anyway, yesterday I changed the settings to "downflow fill first" and did a manual regen. The water level at the end of the fill (step 1) is much higher. I can reach down into the salt and feel "wet" several inches above the grid.

Here are the "Master Programming Mode" settings:

Format: gallons (U--1)

Regenerant Flow: downflow fill first (dFFF)

Regeneration Type: meter delayed (7--3)

System Capacity: 48000 grains/gallon (C-48)

Feed water hardness: 23 grains/gallon (H-23)

Regeneration time: 2 am (2:00)

Regeneration day override: 7 days (A--7)

Regeneration Cycle Step Programming:

** step 1 - refill: 12 minutes (1--12)
** step 2 - brine making: 60 minutes (2--60)
** step 3 - backwash: 20 minutes (3--10)
** step 4 - brine draw: 60 minutes (4--60)
** step 5 - 2nd backwash: 5 minutes (5 --5)
** step 6 - rapid rinse: 10 minutes (6--10)

Flow meter size: 82 pulses per gallon (F--82)

Safety factor: 15% (cF 15)

Line frequency: 60 Hz (LF 60)


If I understand your earlier posts correctly (no guarantee of that!!) then it seems like I should change cycle step #1, currently 12 minutes, down to 3 minutes? And after a regeneration cycle is complete, where do I want the water level in the brine tank relative to the grid - or does it matter? Right now the water level is above the grid. I would guess that in down flow fill first mode, the fill level should be below the salt after the regen is complete.

Thanks again for all the help!!

Akpsdvan
04-21-2010, 09:34 AM
If your brine flow control is .50 gpm then for 12 minutes there will be 6 gallons in the brine tank, 3lbs per 1 gallon of water or 18 lbs of salt.
That 18 lbs will take between 2-3 hours to make up.. if any changes I would take the step 2 brine making from 60 minutes to 120 minutes.

I would take the capacity from 48k down to 38k

Those are the only two that I would do.

Just my view..

TWEAK
04-21-2010, 10:08 AM
Thanks for the comments, but now I'm confused.

Gary was talking about a salt dose of 4 pounds, based on my usage. Is the right number 18 pounds? Yikes, that seems like a lot of salt.

Any comments on the height of the water before fill relative to the salt grid? Does it matter?

Finally, why would one choose "df" over "dfff" or visa-versa? IS there a disadvantage to letting the brine sit in the tank all week between regenerations?

Thanks again for your insight!

Akpsdvan
04-21-2010, 10:20 AM
Thanks for the comments, but now I'm confused.

Gary was talking about a salt dose of 4 pounds, based on my usage. Is the right number 18 pounds? Yikes, that seems like a lot of salt.

Any comments on the height of the water before fill relative to the salt grid? Does it matter?

Finally, why would one choose "df" over "dfff" or visa-versa? IS there a disadvantage to letting the brine sit in the tank all week between regenerations?

Thanks again for your insight!
If yours is an upflow it is going to be making the brine before it cleans...
Down flow that I use refills the brine tank at the end and then X number of days later it cleans.. x could be 2 days or 10 days.

Most of the time the 18" dia brine tank with a 4" high salt grid will have about 1-2" of water above the grid.

Check the brine flow control .. what is the gpm? .5gpm .25gpm 1.0gpm take that number multiply it by the time for the refill that gives the gallons going to the brine tank.
Then 3lbs of salt per gallon of water for max of 26-27% to get to that one needs 2-3 hours of time for the water and the salt to get to know each other.

With an up flow the brine is getting to the resin at the start and not having to go through 15" of water before it starts to clean the resin... so yes you can use less salt to get close to the same capacity that the down flow would give.

TWEAK
04-21-2010, 01:11 PM
If yours is an upflow it is going to be making the brine before it cleans...
Down flow that I use refills the brine tank at the end and then X number of days later it cleans.. x could be 2 days or 10 days.

Most of the time the 18" dia brine tank with a 4" high salt grid will have about 1-2" of water above the grid.

Check the brine flow control .. what is the gpm? .5gpm .25gpm 1.0gpm take that number multiply it by the time for the refill that gives the gallons going to the brine tank.
Then 3lbs of salt per gallon of water for max of 26-27% to get to that one needs 2-3 hours of time for the water and the salt to get to know each other.

With an up flow the brine is getting to the resin at the start and not having to go through 15" of water before it starts to clean the resin... so yes you can use less salt to get close to the same capacity that the down flow would give.

Where do I find the brine flow control number? It's not in the programming manual or installation instructions.

The fleck 7000SXT has three settings, "downflow", "downflow fill first" and "filter". As I read the Fleck manual, the "filter" is not really for water softeners. "Downflow" fills at the end of the regen cycle and the brine forms before/until the next regen. "Downflow fill first" fills at the start and allows time for the salt to dissolve as part of the regen. But they are both downflow. Which do you recommend?

Gary Slusser
04-21-2010, 01:40 PM
When I first posted, the cam option was "downflow" - DF. I noticed that there was very little water in the brine tank. In fact, it was literally barely up to the grid or possibly even a tad below it. Is this why I was getting such low salt usage? I do get much reduced hard water buildup at the fixtures, , but still see significant water spotting. To me the water hasn't felt nearly as "slick" as I expect. Has my effective salt dose just been way too little due to the low water level??
"the cam", there is no cam, it is actually the direction of the flow of brine water through the resin bed. Standard is down (flow) through the bed.

The amount of water in the brine tank is dictated by the salt dose and not important and it will be what it is based on your Refill time and the height of the salt grid, and it doesn't have to be above the grid as long as water can get into the cup shaped legs of the grid. They usually have a hole in the bottom.


Anyway, yesterday I changed the settings to "downflow fill first" and did a manual regen. The water level at the end of the fill (step 1) is much higher. I can reach down into the salt and feel "wet" several inches above the grid.
Pre refill or Refill first means add the water for the salt dose lbs at the beginning of a regeneration and then wait for a period of time for the salt to dissolve and then use it instead of at the end of a regeneration where it sits there until the next regeneration. Pre Refill means the brine will be used in the slow rinse/brine draw position and there will only be a couple inches of water in the salt tank between regenerations.

The reason you saw the water level increase is because the valve added your 6 gallons of brine makeup water to what was already in the tank. During the next regeneration it will be sucked out and none added until next week etc..


Here are the "Master Programming Mode" settings:

Format: gallons (U--1)
Regenerant Flow: downflow fill first (dFFF)
Regeneration Type: meter delayed (7--3)
System Capacity: 48000 grains/gallon (C-48)
Feed water hardness: 23 grains/gallon (H-23)
Regeneration time: 2 am (2:00)
Regeneration day override: 7 days (A--7)
Regeneration Cycle Step Programming:
** step 1 - refill: 12 minutes (1--12)
** step 2 - brine making: 60 minutes (2--60)
** step 3 - backwash: 20 minutes (3--10)
** step 4 - brine draw: 60 minutes (4--60)
** step 5 - 2nd backwash: 5 minutes (5 --5)
** step 6 - rapid rinse: 10 minutes (6--10)

Safety factor: 15% (cF 15)

If I understand your earlier posts correctly (no guarantee of that!!) then it seems like I should change cycle step #1, currently 12 minutes, down to 3 minutes? And after a regeneration cycle is complete, where do I want the water level in the brine tank relative to the grid - or does it matter? Right now the water level is above the grid. I would guess that in down flow fill first mode, the fill level should be below the salt after the regen is complete.
It doesn't matter how much water is in the salt tank.

With one person at 60 gals/day times 23 gpg = 1380*8 days = 11040 rounded to 12K, you need to set the salt dose to 4 lbs. Four lbs at the rate of .5 gpm or 1.5 lbs/minute is 3 minutes of Fill time.

Format: gallons (U--1)
Regenerant Flow: downflow fill first (dFFF)
Regeneration Type: meter delayed (7--3)
System Capacity: 12000 grains/gallon (C-12)
Feed water hardness: 23 grains/gallon (H-23)
Regeneration time: 2 am (2:00)
Regeneration day override: 8 days (A--8)
Regeneration Cycle Step Programming:
** step 1 - refill: 4 minutes (1--4)
** step 2 - brine making: 120 minutes (2--120)
** step 3 - backwash: 6 minutes (3--6)
** step 4 - brine draw: 45 minutes (4--45)
** step 5 - 2nd backwash: 5 minutes (5 --5)
** step 6 - rapid rinse: 5 minutes (6--5)

Safety factor: 15% (cF 15)

That gets you 443 gals and 7 days with better than a 24 hr reserve and a calendar override of 8 days and great salt and water efficiency and keeps the salt tank cleaner than Post Refill would.

DO NOT let it run out of salt. If you do you do 2 manual regens one right after teh other with no water use during or between and you do them at 22.5 lbs of salt and then when done, change the salt dose back to 4 lbs.

Gary Slusser
04-21-2010, 01:49 PM
The brine line flow control (BLFC) gpm is on a sticker where the brine line or drain line attaches to the control valve.

You probably do not have a counter-current (upflow) type softener (control valve). You have a standard down flow co-current. Brine flow down through the resin bed instead of up through it.

TWEAK
04-21-2010, 01:58 PM
"the cam", there is no cam, it is actually the direction of the flow of brine water through the resin bed. Standard is down (flow) through the bed.

The amount of water in the brine tank is dictated by the salt dose and not important and it will be what it is based on your Refill time and the height of the salt grid, and it doesn't have to be above the grid as long as water can get into the cup shaped legs of the grid. They usually have a hole in the bottom.


Pre refill or Refill first means add the water for the salt dose lbs at the beginning of a regeneration and then wait for a period of time for the salt to dissolve and then use it instead of at the end of a regeneration where it sits there until the next regeneration. Pre Refill means the brine will be used in the slow rinse/brine draw position and there will only be a couple inches of water in the salt tank between regenerations.

The reason you saw the water level increase is because the valve added your 6 gallons of brine makeup water to what was already in the tank. During the next regeneration it will be sucked out and none added until next week etc..


It doesn't matter how much water is in the salt tank.

With one person at 60 gals/day times 23 gpg = 1380*8 days = 11040 rounded to 12K, you need to set the salt dose to 4 lbs. Four lbs at the rate of .5 gpm or 1.5 lbs/minute is 3 minutes of Fill time.

Format: gallons (U--1)
Regenerant Flow: downflow fill first (dFFF)
Regeneration Type: meter delayed (7--3)
System Capacity: 12000 grains/gallon (C-12)
Feed water hardness: 23 grains/gallon (H-23)
Regeneration time: 2 am (2:00)
Regeneration day override: 8 days (A--8)
Regeneration Cycle Step Programming:
** step 1 - refill: 4 minutes (1--4)
** step 2 - brine making: 120 minutes (2--120)
** step 3 - backwash: 6 minutes (3--6)
** step 4 - brine draw: 45 minutes (4--45)
** step 5 - 2nd backwash: 5 minutes (5 --5)
** step 6 - rapid rinse: 5 minutes (6--5)

Safety factor: 15% (cF 15)

That gets you 443 gals and 7 days with better than a 24 hr reserve and a calendar override of 8 days and great salt and water efficiency and keeps the salt tank cleaner than Post Refill would.

DO NOT let it run out of salt. If you do you do 2 manual regens one right after teh other with no water use during or between and you do them at 22.5 lbs of salt and then when done, change the salt dose back to 4 lbs.

Super! I will edit the program right now.

edit - new question: Gary, I notice you said 3 minutes would provide a 4 pound salt dose but you specified a fill time of 4 minutes not 3 minutes. Typo or am I looking at this wrong??

Sure appreciate all the support. I feel that I have a much better understanding of how this works thanks to this carefully reading through yours and akpsdvan's comments. Too bad the manufacturer doesn't put all this information in the instructions they ship with the units! I wonder how many folks out there have mis-programmed controllers?

Gary Slusser
04-21-2010, 03:02 PM
edit - new question: Gary, I notice you said 3 minutes would provide a 4 pound salt dose but you specified a fill time of 4 minutes not 3 minutes. Typo or am I looking at this wrong??

Too bad the manufacturer doesn't put all this information in the instructions they ship with the units! I wonder how many folks out there have mis-programmed controllers?
Yes I have a mental block with figuring minutes on Fleck and then I typo it...... With a Clack I simply put in the actual lbs and the computer gets right on down to tenths of a minute.

The number of minutes depend on what BLFC you have, and most common is .5 gpm 1.5 lb/minute. So for four lbs on a Fleck, you can't set it to get only 4 lbs., so you have to go higher because you can't set less than a minute of refill time. Three minutes * 1.5 lbs per minute = 4.5 lbs, set it for 3 minutes.

Akpsdvan
04-21-2010, 05:24 PM
DF is what I would use if I was programing it.. it fills the brine tank last and there is no wait time between filling the brine tank and then starting the brine draw ,, all that adds up, I find that over the next few days after a cleaning cycle is better in getting the salt water up to the 26-27% and ready for the next cleaning.
It is better for water to be over the salt table.. salt fills in the 3 or 4 cups and will take much longer in getting the 26-27% salt water made up..

TWEAK
04-21-2010, 06:13 PM
Got it, thanks guys. All makes sense.

Gary Slusser
04-22-2010, 08:44 PM
DF is what I would use if I was programing it.. it fills the brine tank last and there is no wait time between filling the brine tank and then starting the brine draw ,, all that adds up, I find that over the next few days after a cleaning cycle is better in getting the salt water up to the 26-27% and ready for the next cleaning.
It is better for water to be over the salt table.. salt fills in the 3 or 4 cups and will take much longer in getting the 26-27% salt water made up..
The wait time happens before a regeneration starts, so there is no wasted time.

With 2 hrs you get the 26-27% and I've had a scientist that listened to what you are saying so he bought a salometer and tested each regeneration for three months for both pre and post refill. There is very little difference and testing the drain water for 8-13% was right on. Maybe with colder temps it wouldn't work as well but in the lower 48, I've been doing it this way for 1384 customers over the last 6.4 yrs with no problems.

He sent me a graph if you want to see it. He also posted it on the old Purolite forum.

Pre refill keeps the salt tank clean and prevents salt bridging plus it's easy to tell there is a brine problem by seeing more than 2-3" of water in the salt tank at any time between regenerations.

Akpsdvan
04-22-2010, 10:30 PM
Salt bridging is an odd duck in that I have seen it happen almost like clock work on some and never on others that one would think that it would happen...
Some brine tanks been to be cleaned about every 2 years because of either Iron build up of the sluge build up from pellet salt with the binder... I have been using extra course now for 20 years with only iron build up on some but never the sluge from the binder..
If extra course does bridge a mop handle will break that bridge or a good mule kick on the out side of the brine tank will do the trick.
The wait time is part of the cleaning cycle... once the unit enters the cleaning cycle untreated water is going into the house, and if there is iron of any great level that can be a challenge later in the day should any good water usage take place in the time frame.
One is looking to have the single unit on as little down time as possible.
Not all of the water in the states or lower 48 is warm, some in the northern part of the country comes close to the temp that we have around here.
With a unit using a time refill from the valve and the safety float assembly as the back up for stopping water into the brine tank, if the float comes in contact with the water then there is a challenge with the injector / screen or the brine piston not seating ...

And if this has been working for my 20 years and I learned from people that where in the business long before I started ... why change some thing that works?

Bob999
04-23-2010, 07:04 AM
I prefer post fill--it works well in all water temperatures so why mess with success.

I see no evidence or rationale for the claimed benefit of keeping the salt tank cleaner with pre fill. I also have seen no data that supports the claim that it reduces salt bridging and I think the claim is counter intuitive because water is present in the brine tank at all times even with pre fill.

The one potential benefit I see for prefill is to the service person--the brine tank will typically have less brine in it when a service call is made and this may make service easier in some circumstances.

TWEAK
04-23-2010, 09:34 AM
I prefer post fill--it works well in all water temperatures so why mess with success.

I see no evidence or rationale for the claimed benefit of keeping the salt tank cleaner with pre fill. I also have seen no data that supports the claim that it reduces salt bridging and I think the claim is counter intuitive because water is present in the brine tank at all times even with pre fill.

The one potential benefit I see for prefill is to the service person--the brine tank will typically have less brine in it when a service call is made and this may make service easier in some circumstances.

It is really interesting to get all the expert opinions on this. But since you guys don't agree on the pre- v. post-fill, it leaves the question open.

The default on the Fleck 7000 valve is post-fill. I've had this particular softener working for a couple of years on the factory default settings. The brine tank looks very clean... but then again maybe the buildup Gary is talking about takes longer to form. So my experience may not be too helpful on that matter.

I did just change to pre-fill a few days ago. But based on this discussion, I think I will dump a bucket of clean water into the brine tank to get the water level above the table level and change back to post-fill -- Gary, please don't be upset at this, I am doing it strictly for for experimental purposes! After another year if the brine tanks starts to look grimy or if I see salt bridge problems, then I will clean it out and try pre-fill. I always use the same salt - the pellet stuff they sell at Costco (I get it there for convenience - not really to save the one dollar price difference). Maybe I will learn something from this experiment. If so I will come back to this thread and let you guys know what happened.

Perhaps pre- v. post- is a minor issue? If one was clearly better than the other, I wonder why Fleck would offer both options. In fact.... why do they???

By the way, I emailed Pentair and asked them about the fill rate on my valve - 0.5 gpm or 0.25 gpm or ??? No response. I'm actually somewhat disappointed that they wouldn't respond to a customer inquiry. Anyone know the correct fill rate for the 7000SXT valve? Clearly it has a major impact on the salt dose. If the info isn't available, I have a bucket with measuring lines on it... guess I could put the fill tube in a bucket and determine how much water comes out in 3 minutes.

Thanks again for all the support!! I've learned a lot.

Akpsdvan
04-23-2010, 09:51 AM
If you have the manual for the 7000, then on page 20 parts 13-9 .. the brine fitting has in the base a little rubber washer with a hole, that is the flow control. Be very careful, remove and look with a good light and one should find on it .25gpm.... .50gpm... that is how many gallons per minute will go to the brine tank.
Let us know if you need the link for the manual.

TWEAK
04-23-2010, 10:39 AM
If you have the manual for the 7000, then on page 20 parts 13-9 .. the brine fitting has in the base a little rubber washer with a hole, that is the flow control. Be very careful, remove and look with a good light and one should find on it .25gpm.... .50gpm... that is how many gallons per minute will go to the brine tank.
Let us know if you need the link for the manual.

Yes I do have that manual. I will get my light and see if I can find the marking. I didn't think to look at the actual valve - I just scoured the manual and pentaire website. Thanks yet again for all the effort you've spent to help me!

Akpsdvan
04-23-2010, 10:47 AM
There is no set flow rate, each valve ends up getting a different control depending on the size of the tank that it is going onto.
Most of the time it is .25 or .50 but with this valve able to go on larger systems it can take up to the 1.0gpm.
The 5600 or the 2510 and some of the others had a lable on the injector or brine valve assembly. I have a 7000 that is on the shelf but have not looked to see what is on it..

Bob999
04-23-2010, 11:24 AM
Most valves are shipped with a sticker on the valve body that lists the size of the brine line flow control installed in the valve. Yours may or may not have the sticker--and of course there is always the possibility that if there is a sticker it is not correct for the actual flow control that is installed.

The most commonly used brine line flow control is 0.5 gpm.

Gary Slusser
04-23-2010, 10:41 PM
Yes I do have that manual. I will get my light and see if I can find the marking. I didn't think to look at the actual valve - I just scoured the manual and pentaire website. Thanks yet again for all the effort you've spent to help me!
That info is not in a manual because it is specific to each valve based on the size of the softener etc. etc. so teh valve is ordered from the manufacturer .

You say you are confused about pre and post refill. The fact is that I am the only one here that has used it and a couple guys here just love to disagree with most everything I say. One is a dealer and the other is an owner of a softener etc..

With pre refill you don't have salt sitting in the water, except that in the legs of the grid, because it is below the grid except after refill during the first backwash and then sucked down below the grid during brining.

Here is a link to a comparison of pre and post refill done by a customer of mine in 2004. There is very little difference between the two and both provide more than the minimum saturation and brine strength.
http://home.pacbell.net/seliger/softener.htm

Akpsdvan
04-23-2010, 11:39 PM
And round and round it is going to go.

Both have uses or in another word.. pros and cons

When a unit does a filling of the brine tank at the start of a cleaning cycle is that unit on bypass ? is untreated water getting passed the unit and into the house? and while it waits for the 60+ minutes is that unit letting untreated water past and into the house?

Bob999
04-24-2010, 07:30 AM
You say you are confused about pre and post refill. The fact is that I am the only one here that has used it and a couple guys here just love to disagree with most everything I say. One is a dealer and the other is an owner of a softener etc..

Gary, you are not correct when you assert that you are "the only one here that has used it" (referring to pre and post fill on a softener). You simply have no way of knowing everything that others who post here have or have not done and you should, in my opinion, refrain from making statements that you cannot support.

Gary Slusser
04-24-2010, 10:06 AM
And round and round it is going to go.

Both have uses or in another word.. pros and cons
So that this doesn't go round and round as you say, and since I've proved one of your stated cons of pre refill isn't right, please list the cons of both pre and post refill.


When a unit does a filling of the brine tank at the start of a cleaning cycle is that unit on bypass ? is untreated water getting passed the unit and into the house? and while it waits for the 60+ minutes is that unit letting untreated water past and into the house?
You've previously said it was/would.

Now you're asking if it is/will.... which seems to say you don't know if it is/will. So which is it, do you know or don't you know?

Hint; some big box store brands use pre refill, you service or have serviced many of them, how many have you heard of that causing hard water by pass?

As the OP asked you and IIRC you haven't answered, why would manufacturers like Fleck and Clack have it if it causes the problems you think it does? Or, since you say there are pros to pre refill but disagree with mine, what are your pros of pre refill?

BTW, the 60+ minutes wait should be 120 minutes (2 hrs), 1 hr is not long enough in many cases.

Gary Slusser
04-24-2010, 10:17 AM
Gary, you are not correct when you assert that you are "the only one here that has used it" (referring to pre and post fill on a softener). You simply have no way of knowing everything that others who post here have or have not done and you should, in my opinion, refrain from making statements that you cannot support.
If I'm wrong about your experience being simply a guy with a softener Bob, it's no ones fault but your own for not stating your experience in water treatment as a dealer etc..

BTW, do you agree with AKpsdvan that both pre and post refill have pros and cons? If so, since you disagree with my list, list what you think they are.

Bob999
04-24-2010, 11:34 AM
If I'm wrong about your experience being simply a guy with a softener Bob, it's no ones fault but your own for not stating your experience in water treatment as a dealer etc..

No Gary it is your fault, and your fault alone when you make up incorrect information about other posters.

Grow up and stop behaving like a spoiled teenager who has been caught his hand in the cookie jar.

TWEAK
04-25-2010, 12:47 AM
Whoa, gentlemen!!

Bottom line, you're all very generous guys for taking your valuable time to explain all this. The info from all of you has helped tremendously.

Akpsdvan
04-25-2010, 09:14 AM
Glad that you now have a better understanding of your system and the programing of it.

Akpsdvan
04-27-2010, 12:55 PM
On the 7000 that I have there is a label on the back of the unit that shows .5gpm for the brine flow control.
You might have that label on yours.

Gary Slusser
04-27-2010, 05:09 PM
Yeah the industry standard is .5 gpm or 1.5 lbs per minute.

TWEAK
04-27-2010, 06:48 PM
Well, here's a surprise. I looked at the back side of the head and sure enough, there is a sticker there.

BLFC - 0.125 GPM

If you go back to the first post, I commented that I use very, very little salt. I think I now understand why! The unit was running with the default, 6 minute fill... so that would be 0.125 x 6 minutes = 0.75 gallons... 2.25 pounds.

Since I need a four pound salt dose, I need 1.33 gallons of water, right?

So at BLFC - 0.125, this would take 11 minutes (gives 4.13 pounds).

Since the salt dose has apparently been low for quite a while, would you recommend that I regenerate with very high salt dose before going to the 4 pound level? Or would you just set it to 11 minutes and see how it goes?

Thanks! I'm learning!

Akpsdvan
04-27-2010, 07:28 PM
High fives....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you have moved up another level ..... :D

One to two extra regenerates with a little extra salt will not hurt... say do the new settings like you would like and then just add a few more gallons of water for the next one or two cycles.

.125,,,, now that is different...........

TWEAK
04-27-2010, 09:04 PM
High fives....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you have moved up another level ..... :D



I had some great teachers! :D

Gary Slusser
04-27-2010, 09:05 PM
A .125 gpm.... very odd.

I'd do two manual regenerations at 23 lbs each back to back with no water use during or between them; one starting at like 7:30 PM and then another on your way to bed about 11 or automatically at 2 AM.. Then set the lbs back to 4.

That regenerates the whole 1.5 cuft back to max capacity of 45K and that allows you to regularly use 4 lbs of salt without noticeable leakage (hardness bleed through).

TWEAK
04-28-2010, 08:29 PM
A .125 gpm.... very odd.

I'd do two manual regenerations at 23 lbs each back to back with no water use during or between them; one starting at like 7:30 PM and then another on your way to bed about 11 or automatically at 2 AM.. Then set the lbs back to 4.

That regenerates the whole 1.5 cuft back to max capacity of 45K and that allows you to regularly use 4 lbs of salt without noticeable leakage (hardness bleed through).

I did the regens as advised so I think I'm good to go.

I'm pretty comfortable with this salt dose business and the brine tank fill calculations at this point, as well as the brine-making step. But if you wouldn't mind, may I ask you to teach me about the other steps and the logic used to select the time for those. Specifically, I'm referring to the "backwash", "Brine Draw", "2nd Backwash" and "Rapid Rinse" steps of the process. I can see from the manual what is happening in these steps, but I don't have a clue how to select an appropriate time for each.

I'm thinking there must be some logic to determining the appropriate time to allocated for these steps, right?

Thanks in advance!

Akpsdvan
04-28-2010, 09:10 PM
I did the regens as advised so I think I'm good to go.

I'm pretty comfortable with this salt dose business and the brine tank fill calculations at this point, as well as the brine-making step. But if you wouldn't mind, may I ask you to teach me about the other steps and the logic used to select the time for those. Specifically, I'm referring to the "backwash", "Brine Draw", "2nd Backwash" and "Rapid Rinse" steps of the process. I can see from the manual what is happening in these steps, but I don't have a clue how to select an appropriate time for each.

I'm thinking there must be some logic to determining the appropriate time to allocated for these steps, right?

Thanks in advance!

Oh the days of old with the Hague gold crown with the double back wash when no one else had one..

1st back wash was 10-12 minutes on the 1.0 cubic foot
Brine draw/slow rinse was 50 minutes
2nd back wash was 6 minutes
Rapid rinse was 6-8 minutes
Brine tank refill on the 1.0 cubic was 4 minutes for the 6lbs of salt.

The Second back was was great when it came to iron in the water, some times not all of the iron would get removed after the brine/rinse and the second back wash would remove that part.. it would also let one cut down on the slow rinse time to remove the extra brine that might not have gotten out of the media..
The rapid rinse is more for packing the media bed and getting it ready for service ..

Gary Slusser
04-28-2010, 11:31 PM
may I ask you to teach me about the other steps and the logic used to select the time for those. Specifically, I'm referring to the "backwash", "Brine Draw", "2nd Backwash" and "Rapid Rinse" steps of the process. I can see from the manual what is happening in these steps, but I don't have a clue how to select an appropriate time for each.

I'm thinking there must be some logic to determining the appropriate time to allocated for these steps, right?

Thanks in advance!
It takes years of experience to leran how many minutes for each of the cycle positions and they depend on the raw water quality, volume and type of resin and the K of capacity, the salt dose efficiency etc.. I normally use settings for good water conservation.

Gary Slusser
04-28-2010, 11:34 PM
Oh the days of old with the Hague gold crown with the double back wash when no one else had one..

1st back wash was 10-12 minutes on the 1.0 cubic foot
Brine draw/slow rinse was 50 minutes
2nd back wash was 6 minutes
Rapid rinse was 6-8 minutes
Brine tank refill on the 1.0 cubic was 4 minutes for the 6lbs of salt.
With the exception of the refill, I think those settings are way high for a 1.0 cuft softener.

TWEAK
05-16-2010, 07:25 AM
Just a quick update on my softener....

Since adjusting the salt dose per the information you gents explained, it is working great. Salt use is predictable and reasonable and, most importantly, the water quality is now what I was looking for in the first place. Before, I was getting reduced water spotting compared to not having a softener, but it wasn't reduced as much as I had expected - I wasn't using much salt at all and I think my softener wasn't being regenerated adequately. After some high-dose regens and correct programming (as opposed to the factory defaults I had been using), I'm now getting the performance I expected.

One last question! Is there a specific product that I should be dumping into the brine tank occasionally to clean/maximize resin life? There's no iron in the water (according to the water company).

Thanks!

Wally Hays
05-16-2010, 07:54 AM
Glad to hear it's doing the job for you. If you have no iron then you should not have to put anything in the brine tank.