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adeutsch
03-06-2010, 10:13 AM
Hi,

i've had my Toto toilet for about a year now and I'm noticing a couple of issues. They are most probably related but I'm no expert or for that matter a novice either.

Basically my toilet will run constantly because after flushing the stopper will not cover the hole completely. When i make the slight adjustment by hand it stops running, which makes sense. However, sometimes the tank wont re-fill after flushing and the bowl wont flush but has a constant drain. The water continuously runs but the tank does not fill up. I figure its just running straight through the tank through the bowl and then down the drain. I can not stop this action and am forced to shut off the water supply. After a few minutes wiht the water turned off it returns to normal function.

I'm sure i can adjust the stopper or get a new stopper to cover the hole and that should deal with the first problem, but i think i have a much larger issue with the fill valve and the internal workings.

Any idea of what i should do? It's kind of annoying when your toilet works correctly only 10% of the time.

thanks in advance for your responses.

Terry
03-06-2010, 11:20 AM
Trouble shooting

Fill the tank, turn off water supply at the wall and take a note of how high the water is in the tank.

If the water level drops in the tank, then that needs to be addressed first.

If the water level stays in the tank, turn the water supply back on, and see if the fill valve is shutting off consistently.
The water in the tank, should stay below the overflow tube.
If the water keeps overfilling, then the fill valve needs work.
It could need a simple cleaning, or a part, or even replacement.
Can you post a picture here less then 800 x 800 pixels as an attachment of the inside of the tank.

adeutsch
03-07-2010, 11:44 AM
Thanks for your reply.

Basically there are 3 states that the toilet can be in.

1. Normal - we like that. About 15% of the time.
2. Running - this happens when the red plunger does not full cover the drainage hole. It will leave a tine slit open and can be fixed by pulling the plunger to cover the hole completely. About 75%.
3. Full run - Not sure what is happening here but the tank does not fill up and the bowl does not drain. Instead there is a constant running of water and there is a constant drain from the bowl but neither the bowl or the tank changes levels. The tank is about 1/2 inch full and the bowl is a more full than normal (case #1). I fix this by turning off the water supply and when I turn it back on, it miraculously works. 10% of the time.

My hunch is that if i fix case #2 everything would be fine. My other hunch is that there might be something loose or just slightly off within the mechanism. Since it doesn't happen all the time.

Any ideas of how to fix these 2 issues? I've attached the picture, i hope it works.

Thanks so much for your help.

Andy

adeutsch
03-07-2010, 11:45 AM
you can see the top left of the red plunger is where it does not fully cover. in the picture it is working fine but if it is just slightly off there will be space for the water to flow.

jadnashua
03-07-2010, 11:50 AM
I'd take a little slack out of the chain and move the anchor on the arm to a point closer to over the flapper and see if that helps.

Depending on your water chlorine levels, the rubber on the flapper will fail at different times. Where I live, I can get about 4-5 years, but if you have high chlorine levels, yours could be dead much sooner. What I find happens is that it gets softer, and the center gets depressed because of the water pressure from just sitting there most of the time. At some point once this starts to happen, it doesn't seal well all the time and I replace it. They're warrantied for, I think, longer than that, but I ususally just buy one.

Terry
03-07-2010, 12:59 PM
You can try bending the brass rod so that the flapper gets lifted straight up and down.

new2me
03-18-2010, 10:16 AM
I've had the same problem with both of my Toto's. The lift rod was not aligned over the flapper out of the box, but is easily bent back (careful not to break it!)

The flapper deforms and leaks. Bad design of the flapper. Rubber may have worked for smaller flush valves for the past century, but IMHO it is not suitably strong for these larger ones. The force of the flapper slamming closed causes it to deform and leak. I can take it out and see that it is "warped"; allowing it to regain its "correct" shape by leaving it out for awhile will allow it to work OK for ~ one week, then it starts leaking again. Brand new flappers, at @ $10 each, will last longer, but succumb within a year, or so.

What is needed is a reinforced flapper, one with a rigid top that will not deflect/deform over time from the repeated closing action. That would make it last several years (maybe even as long as the "old" ones!) and remove a lot of the negative Toto postings.
Anyone know of a flapper that is strong enough to cover a 3" opening with out warping that can be retro-fitted to a Toto G-Max flush valve?

jadnashua
03-18-2010, 01:12 PM
A lot of this depends on the quality of the water...the more chlorine in the water, the quicker the rubber gets soft and you need to replace the flapper. Also, if you add chlorine to the tank, with one of those cleaning tablets or other sources, the flapper will fail quickly, too. Where I live, I can get 3-4 years out of one. Your results, obviously, are different. Live with well water, and expect longer (unless you chlorinate the well).

Basement_Lurker
03-18-2010, 03:03 PM
Your fill valve is fine, and I am pretty sure your flapper looks to be in good condition. These guys are telling you adjust the slack on your flapper's chain, which you should try, as well as inspect the flapper.

But from what you are describing, and intermittent flushing/filling problem , it sounds like you have a problem with the flush handle. The handle on the Drake use very flimsy plastic attachment parts which can loosen and slip/reposition when you flush if the handle assembly is cranked too tight, causing the handle arm to be out of alignment. If you adjust the flapper chain and leave the handle slightly loose rather than cranking it tight, your problem should be fixed.

new2me
04-08-2010, 01:57 PM
I hope that I have found the solution. I bought a Fluidmaster 5403 3 inch universal toilet flapper that comes with a 10 year warranty.
It is primarily made of a hard, rigid plastic, with a silicone sealing ring under it.
When I installed it I also noticed that the lift rod pulled it off to one side and caused the "ears" to slide on the "pins" that it attaches to the overflow tube with. It still sat back down centered over the hole because of the alignment tabs along side of the "bubble." I never saw that with the original "red" flapper, probably because the "ears" flex and don't slide? I "adjusted"(bent) the lift rod until it lifted the flapper up and down only, with no side to side movement.
The "bubble" has adjustable flow so that you can "dial" more/less water per flush. The instructions listed 6, on a 1-10 scale, as the right setting for a drake. At 6 it seemed fine; at 0 it doesn't use hardly any water at all; at 10 it almost empties the tank and flushes harder then it ever did. I left it at 10.
I got it at Home Despot for $12, which is $2 more then Lowes(t) wanted for a replacement "red" flapper, and it was the ONLY 3 inch flapper they had!
If it does last 10 years it will have been a good $12 investment, if it only lasts 5 years, it is still a good deal better then replacing these $8-10 "red" ones every 2 years!

new2me
04-10-2010, 07:54 AM
Thanks for adding the picture Terry!
All of the green is rigid plastic, so is the white adjustable "bubble" float. The gray is the silicone sealing ring.
I had looked at the Fluidmaster product website and didn't find this flapper listed there yet.
I turned the "bubble" float setting down to 7 to reduce the amount of water per flush. At 10 it splashed too much to suit the Mrs.

Dunbar Plumbing
04-11-2010, 09:09 PM
I'm not too keen on retrofits so I guess the jury is out on that fluidmaster flapper. I hope it works as I've been getting calls back on some of the drakes I installed not even 2 years ago.

Toto got stingy with me till I laid the law down and told them how many I installed, and I was having to take it on the chin on those flappers, not being able to charge for my time. They didn't even look damaged/aged from chlorine...just wouldn't seal.

They sent me 4, 2 red and 2 blue ones. Red usually indicates chemical resistant but I can see a hard shell on the top of those flappers making a difference.

new2me
04-22-2010, 08:17 AM
I purchased both of my Totos in August of 2007, and the first flapper I replaced was in July of 2008 (in 1/2 bath that gets most use.) Second ones' original lasted till Thanksgiving, both replacements where free exchanges from supplier. The 1/2 bath started running again around Thanksgiving, and I tinkered with it on and off until I found the Fluidmaster flapper. I hope it lasts more then 2 years.
There is still a Kohler toilet in the kids full bath that I have not had to do anything to since I bought this house in July of 2006. The Kohlers that the Totos replaced where the same 1989 vintage, slow swirl 4 gallon flush, and probably had the original internals, but they didn't run on. If they had been "right height" they might still be here. I got the Totos because of what I had read on this site, and am a little disappointed in their longevity, but I suppose that the other 3" flush valve toilets are going to experience the same flexible flapper failures.
Maybe if this fluidmaster one works, it'll become the OEM choice; instead of a red or blue just go green.

jadnashua
04-22-2010, 11:41 AM
For the flapper to fail that fast (a year or two), one of two things is likely: your water has an exceptionally high amount of chlorine in it, or you are using an in-tank cleaning chemical. If the later, NO flapper will last very long, especially those larger 3" diameter ones...the rubber is not designed to resist high levels of chlorine. Mine seem to last around 5-6 years. I may look at the Fluidmaster one next time I need one. In the winter, they add more chlorine, but the summertime seems to be less - maybe it just outgasses more because the water is warmer.

AnnisDad
04-26-2010, 09:07 PM
Same trouble here -- red Toto flapper failed after two years. I live in Seattle, and the water doesn't seem heavily chlorinated, at least compared with other places I've lived.

new2me
04-27-2010, 07:50 AM
I don't use the in-tank chlorine tablets, and the water is potable, from the city water main. It is supposed to be safe to drink, so I don't think it has anything to do with chlorine, it has to do with rubber being rubber, it is just not suited to this application. Look at the reinforcing ribs they put on the top of the red flapper , I'd bet they knew it wasn't strong enough to begin with and designed them to help it last just past the warranty period. Great way to have you keep in contact with your plumbing professional though, when they're replacing a $10 flapper every 2 years!

jadnashua
04-27-2010, 10:37 AM
Water can have a fairly high chlorine content and still be potable! Most municipal supplies have some chlorine in them, some much more than others. The use of chlorine cleaning products in the toilet tank typically raise the chlorine levels way beyond what is in the water normally, especially if the toilet is not used often unless it uses an injection type system rather than a 'puck' or similar device that dissolves while sitting in the water.

The flapper valves of my old toilets (not Toto) failed in about the same time, so I can't attribute any unique problems to those supplied by Toto.

Terry
04-27-2010, 12:22 PM
In a similar Seattle neighborhood, we saw a Cadet 3 flapper start to blister in 8 months.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6398&stc=1&d=1233253256
American Standard Cadet 3 Flapper
The rubber ring gasket which seals the flapper valve had approximately (6) blisters on the sealing side. These blisters were the cause of slow leakage and re-filling of the tank.

evanob
09-07-2010, 04:09 PM
My Toto started having the leaking flapper immediately after installed by a professional plumber. I carefully inspected and realized that the flapper would frequently fall slightly off center and then the flapper would deform and allow leaking around the edge. I cut and sized the rigid plastic sleeve to use near the hinges to help the flapper seat more centrally. Now the flapper doesn't seat correctly 1 in 4 flushes and we have to walk back to the toilet to reflush. I contacted Toto and they simply sent a new identical flapper with exactly the same problem -- to soft and deformable. New2me was right, a rigid rubber is needed for this large 3 inch hole that allows the large flapper to collapse and deform. I will try the aftermarket product by Fluidmaster or has Toto really redesigned the flapper since this was purchased 1 1/2 years ago?

jadnashua
09-07-2010, 04:31 PM
If the flush lever is metal, bend it a little so it is closer to being over the top of the flapper. In my home, the flapper valves (Toto) seem to last about 5-years or so. Same red one. Much of it is the water quality.

Ian Gills
09-07-2010, 04:42 PM
Seems like a definite quality control issue to me.

For the price you pay for a Toto, you should be getting more than 2 years out of a flapper.

evanob
09-16-2010, 03:18 PM
I followed new2me's advice and went to Home Depot to buy the aftermarket flapper from Fluidmaster. I could not find that brand, but instead bought this Korky brand. Had same concept of adjustable buoyancy. It works great! No more collapsing into drain hole and persistent leaking. This problem had nothing to do with Chlorine, just bad "soft" design by Toto. They need to hire the Korky manufacturers or perhaps Fluidmaster for their OEM products!! Thank you new2me! Evan

Ian Gills
09-16-2010, 04:32 PM
If it fits the Cadet 3 then it's good by me!

jadnashua
09-16-2010, 05:45 PM
They need to hire the Korky manufacturers or perhaps Fluidmaster for their OEM products!! Thank you new2me! Evan

Toto does not make the flapper, Korky does, and Korky makes many of their flush valves as well. They aren't in the rubber business, Korky is.

ballvalve
09-16-2010, 08:47 PM
I got 11 years out of American standard flappers on a few one piece Savoy's. They sent me new flappers and towers for free for the asking. No chlorine here though.

jadnashua
09-17-2010, 01:28 PM
Addatives to the water make a huge difference in how long rubber parts last.

Runs with bison
09-17-2010, 09:30 PM
Addatives to the water make a huge difference in how long rubber parts last.

In chlorinated systems it's been a regular maintenance issue for me. The black rubber ones were the worst, so I went to the higher dollar types and they did okay. Can't remember how many years I was getting on average between swaps. The black ones probably didn't make it 2 years, the others were at least twice as long.

The black rubber simply degrades/decomposes. The carbon black ends up on your hands when you touch them, while the polymer is long gone/blistered/embrittled.

We'll see on these Toto/Korky pink things in the EcoDrakes. The chlorination here seems to be milder than what we had down south, so I expect them to last 5 years or more. We shall see.

pjsalony
12-01-2011, 11:04 PM
hi
I solved my flapper problem quite easy.I saw that the RED flapper was not seating all the time.The tabs on the tube were too long ,which allowed the flapper to slide.I installed a small rubber grommet on the bowl side of the flapper axle,between the end and flapper.this took the slide out and allowed the flapper to seat properly. toto had sent me a new flapper which didn't solve the issue.i resolved it my self. I should have told them my fix,but i didn't

lennym
12-05-2011, 07:14 AM
Lets call it what it is. There's a design defect in some of Toto's toilets and they should do something about it.

I've had a Carrollton for 8 years with no change in the flapper. So it's not a water problem and it's not a flapper problem. I have had a Soiree for about a year and a half. One flapper had to be replaced and a second just started to leak.

The solutions are found on this board. 1. There could be a better flapper. 2. The inside lever should be positioned over the center of the flapper at the factory. 3. The tube tabs should be shortened.

At the prices of these toilets there is no reason that the consumer should be bothered by flappers that are not made to work right from the start and last for years. Its not a flapper problem--it's a Toto problem!

evanob
12-20-2011, 03:40 PM
I am buying my third Korky 3-inch replacement flapper for my 3rd Toto toilet. The oldest flapper lasted 3.5 years. The rubber literally seems to have shrunk with the cold water this season and will no longer cover the 3 inch opening even when I adjust by hand. I have turned the water off until I can get a replacement flapper. This really is disappointing. I will look for a different brand toilet for my next purchase.

jadnashua
12-20-2011, 04:03 PM
As the rubber ages, the dome on the top collapses, this pulls in the edges. There are other companies that make flappers that fit. It all depends on your water chemistry...some last a long time, some don't.

Ivory
12-30-2011, 10:37 AM
My Toto is experiencing similar issues to the ones already mentioned, and I think it's probably time (3 years +) to replace the flapper.

A flapper listing on ****, a TOTO GMAX FLAPPER # 2021BP, specifies that it fits TOTO toilets from Korky makers.

My Toto is a ST743S, Made in Vietnam, and I wonder if anyone can say whether the flapper on **** would most likely fit my Toto.

Terry
12-30-2011, 11:21 AM
Korky makes a 3" red rubber replacement flapper for the Drake model.
Most hardware stores carry them, including Lowes.

JJL Jr
01-03-2012, 05:59 PM
I've had my Drake for 6-9 months now and my only complaint is that the flapper closes too soon. I've checked the forums and tried the suggestions but these haven't worked. The problem seems to be that the flapper is too close to the fill pipe which doesn't allow it to stay open. As a result, the flapper closes in a split second. It still flushes the waste but its very loud. I have to laugh when I read that some people find it quiet. Maybe next to a truck. I also think the handle may be part of the problem. Are all the handles made of plastic and very loose? I have tightened the nut inside the toilet yet it seems that the handle itself can't be tightened. This makes for a lot of play. Are there any other flappers/handles that can be used which will allow the flapper to remain open a little longer? If not, I guess I'll have to continue to hold the handle for 2 -3 seconds.

Thanks.

Terry
01-03-2012, 06:30 PM
The flapper is only supposed to be up for a moment.

And as for noise levels, it seems to be very dependent on the bathroom.
Same bowl and tank, different homes, different noise levels.
If you are holding the lever down, you are flushing an extra 2 gallons every time.

Gary Swart
01-03-2012, 06:35 PM
The problem is, you are accustom to the old full flow toilets where the flapper stays open and drains the entire tank. New toilets do not do that. They only use about 1/2 of the tank per flush. Also, you old full flow toilets eased the water into the bowl and were fairly quite. With the new toilets, the water enters the bowl through a much larger water way so it is much faster. This does produce a short noise, but most of us do not find this offensive.

CJ2367
05-09-2012, 06:42 AM
Have 3 ultramax for 6 years and started leaking lately after a series of clorine tablet applications to 3 toilets. Out of the 3, 2 toilets started leaking and found out that the flapper was defective. Showed wavy edges on the flapper. I had to agree to one of the previous poster that the flapper needs a solid flapper instead of the pure rubber flapper. Bought the fluidmaster flapper at Lowe's. HomeDepot does not carry it. Here's a picture of the defective flapper.

Terry
05-09-2012, 09:12 AM
Chlorine voids all manufacturers warranties. We're not surprised that adding chlorine did that to the flapper.

Plumbers tell homeoweners about the damage by chlorine all the time. Fluidmaster does make a product that will put the chlorine inside the refill tube, bypassing the tank.

Asiangem
11-20-2012, 01:34 AM
I've had my Drake for 6-9 months now and my only complaint is that the flapper closes too soon. I've checked the forums and tried the suggestions but these haven't worked. The problem seems to be that the flapper is too close to the fill pipe which doesn't allow it to stay open. As a result, the flapper closes in a split second. Are there any other flappers/handles that can be used which will allow the flapper to remain open a little longer? If not, I guess I'll have to continue to hold the handle for 2 -3 seconds.

Thanks.

I had the same problem with my Drake because the flapper closes too soon. I found that the Korky 2022BP Power Gravity™ Flapper For TOTO® Toilet Repairs is a 3" flapper which has only 1 hole instead of the flapper with 2 holes in the Drake. By installing the Power Gravity flapper by Korky, I was able to get the flapper to not close too soon... Now I'm looking into adding a float to the flapper to see if the tank water can empty. Some of the tenants seem to use too much toilet paper and need as much water to flush the toilet paper down; they don't seem to hold the handle for 2-3 seconds because its too much trouble for them. Thus its causing a lot of back-ups in the toilet.

wjcandee
11-20-2012, 06:57 AM
What you have done is convert the toilet into a 2.5-plus gallon-per-flush toilet; keep going and you'll have a 3.5+ gallon-per-flush toilet. That's certainly not in the spirit of what's going on in California.

These toilets pretty much push down the maximum that a toilet can with the legally-specified water volume involved. In fact, my old toilets that use more than 3 gallons don't get down any more toilet paper per flush. Eventually, using too much toilet paper will cause a clog, regardless of how much water is used.

And nobody should be holding down the handle for 2-3 seconds. They should just be discriminate about how much Charmin Ultra they are expecting to flush at one time. The as-designed cycle of the toilet can flush a very large amount.

Give the idiots a plunger and show them how to use it. Set the toilet at the proper water usage as designed. When they fill it too much, they get to plunge. Now you have given them a reason to pay attention to how much toilet paper they use.