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scooby074
02-27-2010, 07:57 PM
Hello all. Ive been lurking for a while here but its usually in the plumbing section ,drains, vents and the like/

I just bought a house that had a old softener that wasnt working. I know the water was hard and had iron issues as theyre was significant rust staining on the fixtures.

So i need a new softener to deal with the rust/hardness.

I had a couple reps out already.

THe first rep recommended a softener and a separate air injection machine for iron - approx $4000

His testing determined 14 hardness with 4 PPM iron.


THe latest guy was out today

His testing was more thorough:

Ferric - 1PPM
Ferris (clear iron) - 2.5 PPM
Hardness - 10 grains. Less than previous test due to manganese. Which this rep says will cause false hardness readings.
H2S - minimal
Sulfates - minimal
Manganese - "A bit" He showed it to me participated out in the test bottle. Might have been 1/16" in the bottom of a ~250ml bottle.
Sedimate- Some small black "sand like" residue. May be from the pressure tank as it really hasnt been used in over a year.,

Salt - likely present do to the high TDS.
TDS- 488 PPM
Arsenic - 0

ph - 7

Sorry for some of the inaccurate quantities, but the guy didnt really quantify the manganese, just showed me the bottle.

I did smell sulfur, but only once after the water was off for a week +. Running water really doesnt smell At least i cant smell it. There was no iron bacteria (scum) in any of the toilets or anything like that

End result was $3400 for a softener with "iron removing Redex resin", fancy resin cost an extra $600 and a Reverse Osmosis system to get the salt out of the drinking only water.



This is on a dug well (60-80 ft) with a jet pump. Pump is 1/2 hp. Family of 4 (2 adult 2 children). Unfortunately i cant determine total demand as theyre is no plumbing installed to turn on, but theyre will be a bath and a 1/2 bath, both with low flow fixtures.

I ran garys sizing chart and got a total capacity of 49920 for a week.

I dived by 2, due to the hardness .. so 25000 rounded up is a 30,000 softener?

I can get a Clack headed 30k softener for 699 delivered.http://www.aquatell.com/canada/water-softeners/clack-water-softeners/clack-water-softener-canada-30000-grain WHile this is not a great deal for the states its pretty awesome for here.

As an example the 40k Ge's at home depot are $999 up here:mad:

Would this deal with my water conditions?

Im not concerned with the Ferris, but am concerned with the ferric iron. I really dont want to destroy the softener or stain m new fixtures. the guy that ran the test, ran a sample of my water thru his portable "water softener".

He then compared the before iron reading to the after. THats where he came up with the PPM for each. Is this the normal procedure?

Even the second "after" vial was pink/red in colour although it was much lighter than the before.

He said that theyre would still be staining even after treatment due to the ferric. Is that correct?



Any information will help. Thanks in advance.

Akpsdvan
02-27-2010, 08:12 PM
Your most likely in an area much like south central alaska.. 35F water right out of the ground.
That can be a good thing.. as I get away with some things that others can not, softeners on water with iron up in 20ppm.
If you are looking for a unit that is going to last YEARS.. stay away from the GE type units as I see them and others with the same valve last only a few years around here and the iron is hard on them, iron will work on any unit that you get..
Stay away from the air suckers.. as the iron will build up in side the pipes from where it is pulled in to where the filter is at, 1" going down to 1/2"...


Water has a salt taste? only RO or Distiller is going to change that.

If one can try to keep things simple. big blue 20" with say 58 micron filter... might be changed every 4-6 months for some of the iron, then a 1.5 cubic foot unit and if possible have a turbolator in it so that the resin bed is changed over every cleaning.

In my spreed sheet the 1.5 cubic with a full capacity of 48000 but run at a capacity of 40k would run you about 1.5 bags of salt per month.

Questions?

scooby074
02-27-2010, 09:31 PM
Thanks.

Our water isnt quite that cold lol/

I cant taste any salt in the water, I mentioned it because the rep today said that due to the high TDS reading there had to be salt in there. I believe he said there was something like 170 ppm calcium and 250? ppm of total "something" i cant remember but it included the 170 ppm calcium.

He said the difference between the TDS reading of 488 and the 250? was the remaining salt in the water???

big blue 20" ? is that just the typical blue filter you can get at home depot? or something special?

I assume this is for the ferric? You would install this before the softener after the tank?

Air suckers? Your taking abut the air injection for iron removal?

Akpsdvan
02-27-2010, 09:51 PM
TDS is made up of the hardness that is in the water.
Water by its self will not pass elect... it is the stuff in the water that will pass ie the calcium and the like.
One might find salt in the water if they are right on the coast and they are getting some of the ocean water in the well.
The big blue is a larger filter than what is normally at a hardware store.. the filters at most stores are 2x10 the big blue uses a 4x10 or 4x20 filter..
Think of the fire department.. they use what size hose from the hidrent to the truck? 6" Why ? to get the water from there to the pump, they want gallons... from the truck to the fire they need more pressure so they drop the size of the hose to help increase the pressure coming out.

Often times I will use a filter as a pre filter to take some of the iron that is coming out of the water that the softener will not handle to remove it.
That is why I use that little mini softener on my testing.. but if I slow the water down going through the mini that too will some times remove all of the iron down below the .3ppm

The challenge is figuring out the flow through the mini to make sure the test is getting it right.

Air suckers or air injection.. are the same thing, there is either air getting pulled in, or a pump to put air in.. but both use air to get the iron to fall out of the water.

Take a dogs water dish... fill it with fresh water, it is clear.. but let it set for some time frame and one will find iron or orange on the bottom of the bowl and form a ring where the water meats the bowl.

scooby074
02-27-2010, 10:03 PM
Akpsdvan, thanks

So, like i asked the tester, whats making up the difference in TDS? He said it wasnt manganese, due to the amount in the 250 ml bottl2 (1/16" in the bottom). He said if it was manganese it would have been 1/2" deep or more???? Thats where he said "it must be salt"... Thats why he said i need a RO for drinking water.

Assuming the testing was correct and i have 1ppm ferric and ~3ppm Ferris, along with a small amount of manganese, would a Big Blue as a prefilter and 30k softener meet my needs? and not destroy itself?

I was also reading on here about a chemical injector that helps in flushing out the iron during backwash? Is it a good add on?

I also heard about a turbiditor (i spelled it wrong) that will help stir the bed during flushing. Can it be added to the clack system above?

Akpsdvan
02-27-2010, 10:39 PM
Not sure what He was mixing to get some thing to settle out at the bottum of the bottle... there is a test for Mn and it starts staining at .05ppm.. pink is what it is on the wheel that I use.
Sounds like he might have been trying to add an RO to the sale,, but that is just me.

With what you have in the way of water and people the pre filter(big blue 20") then the softener 1.5 cubic foot with turbo should do nicely. chemical injector? I would just use some Iron out in between each bag of salt and maybe once a year add about 4 cups of bleach to the brine tank for cleaning..
I like the Fleck, but I have been using them for 20 years.... I only use the computer ones when needed... I like the older style because it is like the old Timex,,, takes a licking and keeps on ticking...
it is simple, and only one motor for the timer part,, $50.00 to replace.. computer controls can run up to 200.00 if and when they go bad, now they go bad less and less... and they are better.. but even if the 50.00 motor goes bad and it is going to be awhile for the replacement one can still cycle the unit with out it..by hand and a watch to turn to the next cycle... computer goes out? and that is it till it is replaced.
Turbos started with Autrol and is used under just about any valve that is out there save for the Culligan, Kinetico, Eco....sears GE,,,, but if it is a Fleck,Clack, Autrol.. you should be able to get it ...might have to ask for special from who ever you are dealing with.

Skip Wolverton
02-28-2010, 04:07 AM
Akpsdvan, thanks

So, like i asked the tester, whats making up the difference in TDS? He said it wasnt manganese, due to the amount in the 250 ml bottl2 (1/16" in the bottom). He said if it was manganese it would have been 1/2" deep or more???? Thats where he said "it must be salt"... Thats why he said i need a RO for drinking water.
Sounds to me the tester was doing a persipation test. 2 chemicals are added (1 clear 1 yellow) to get the hardness to settle to the bottom so you can see it.
If it's not h2o, it's TDS. So iron, calcuim, manganese, copper and so on is TDS.

Bob999
02-28-2010, 06:21 AM
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) is as Skip wrote anything that is dissolved in the water. "Salt" means sodium chloride or common table salt to most of us but it is also used to refer to many other chemical compounds that can be found in water. Given you can't taste sodium chloride in your water I think the individual you spoke with was simply using the broader meaning.

With the iron and manganese in your water you would benefit from use of SST-60 resin--it has superior characteristics with iron laden water but costs more--typically more than twice as much as a generic "high capacity" resin. In the US it would add less than $200 in a 1.5 cubic foot softener.

You will also need to regularly use a resin cleaner with your iron and manganese. Iron Out is commonly used. Personally I prefer Pro Res Care which is supplied in liquid form and can be used with an automatic dispenser. Here is a link that shows the product: http://www.qualitywaterforless.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=res+care

I believe you should definitely get a softener that is at least 1.5 cubic foot--a 1 cubic foot softener will use substantially more salt.

While your TDS level is somewhat elevated it is not so high that a reverse osmosis system is required so I see that as a personal choice unless there is somewhat in the household who is on a sodium restricted diet.

Akpsdvan
02-28-2010, 10:03 AM
Sounds to me the tester was doing a persipation test. 2 chemicals are added (1 clear 1 yellow) to get the hardness to settle to the bottom so you can see it.
If it's not h2o, it's TDS. So iron, calcuim, manganese, copper and so on is TDS.

Now that I will claim as palm to forehead.............
I have not used that test in some time.

Gary Slusser
02-28-2010, 02:15 PM
... So i need a new softener to deal with the rust/hardness.

.... air injection. His testing determined 14 hardness with 4 PPM iron.
Air injection is probably more for the H2S/odor you mentioned later than iron or manganese.


THe latest guy was out today. His testing was more thorough:

Ferric - 1PPM
Ferris (clear iron) - 2.5 PPM
Hardness - 10 grains. Less than previous test due to manganese. Which this rep says will cause false hardness readings.
H2S - minimal
Sulfates - minimal
Manganese - "A bit" He showed it to me participated out in the test bottle. Might have been 1/16" in the bottom of a ~250ml bottle.
Sedimate- Some small black "sand like" residue. May be from the pressure tank as it really hasnt been used in over a year.,

Salt - likely present do to the high TDS.
TDS- 488 PPM
Arsenic - 0

ph - 7

Sorry for some of the inaccurate quantities, but the guy didnt really quantify the manganese, just showed me the bottle.
This guy is leading you astray. TDS (total dissolved solids) is a total of everything dissolved into the water. Use the 14 gpg hardness, manganese does not interfere with hardness; they are separate tests. He did a TDS precipitation demo, that is not a test and it is what BS artists do. Black specks/sediment/particles can be from H2S or manganese residue coming off the inside of the plumbing or from galvanized pipe/fittings.


I did smell sulfur, but only once after the water was off for a week +. Running water really doesnt smell At least i cant smell it. There was no iron bacteria (scum) in any of the toilets or anything like that.

End result was $3400 for a softener with "iron removing Redex resin", fancy resin cost an extra $600 and a Reverse Osmosis system to get the salt out of the drinking only water.
You should have a Coliform bacteria test done.

I don't think I've ever heard of a resin called Redex, but there is no resin worth $600 more and with 4 ppm of iron, you don't need more than regular mesh resin and a Turbulator distributor tube.


Family of 4 (2 adult 2 children). Unfortunately i cant determine total demand as theyre is no plumbing installed to turn on, but theyre will be a bath and a 1/2 bath, both with low flow fixtures.

I ran garys sizing chart and got a total capacity of 49920 for a week.

I dived by 2, due to the hardness .. so 25000 rounded up is a 30,000 softener?
No. The 49920 is what you round up but that is not the size of the softener. You use the Minimum cuft from the calculator page; that is the size of the softener because all softeners are sized by the cuft of resin them; which dictates the size of the resin tank. That does not give you the SFR size you may need.

So for good salt efficiency you need a 1.5 cuft with a constant SFR of 12 gpm if your bathroom fixtures are a regular size tub and shower. And you then program it for the K of capacity you need for a regeneration on average every 4 or 8 days. Then you use a small amount of Iron Out or Super Iron in a couple gallons of water poured into the water at the bottom of the brine well once a month and do a manual regeneration. That's instead of expensive Res Up.


Im not concerned with the Ferris, but am concerned with the ferric iron. I really dont want to destroy the softener or stain m new fixtures. the guy that ran the test, ran a sample of my water thru his portable "water softener".

He then compared the before iron reading to the after. THats where he came up with the PPM for each. Is this the normal procedure?
His portable softener didn't remove all the ferrous iron, you can't measure ferric iron that way. He probably ran the water through it too fast. So unless you have discolored water or rust particles in it when you draw a glass of water, you don't have ferric iron. So no prefilter.

This guy is making things up as he goes, stay away from him.

scooby074
03-06-2010, 11:09 AM
Thanks all for the replys.

I currently have limited internet access as were moving so i may be slow responding.

I also have some confusing results to ask about. These results are from an accrededited lab that i paid to have my water tested. The results dont jive with either of my reps tests????? Thats the reason i posted this thread. You all have been helpful in sorting thru the bull that
the reps push!!

heres the results:

PH 7.39
nitrate + nitrate n (mg/l) <1
Conductance (mmhos) 847
alkalinity (mg/l) 342
chloride (mg/l) 63
Total hardness (mg/l) 341.54

Calcium (mg/l) 95.5
copper (mg/l) <.01
Iron (mg/l) 0.95
Magnesium (mg/l) 25.03
Manganese (mg/l) 0.22
Sodium (mg/l) 49.92
sulfate (mg/l) 39.57
zinc (mg/l) .001
Potassium (mg/l) 5.96

So as you can see, the results are quite different in places.

Total hardness is > 341.54x.07=23.9 gpg

How did we get from 10 or 14 grains '

What about the iron? isnt that .95ppm? the others were like 4ppm. I Know there is iron there because of the staining, so who do i believe?

Gary the water has been tested for fecal and its ok.

Ill re run the calculator with the above info and see what i get.

gary, i re-ran the calculator and now have a 3cuft requirement. does that sound correct? sounds like a lot?\\

or can i do a 1.5 cuft with twice aas many regens?\

54220 total grain
15 lb salt dose\

then after looking at the main sfr page it looks like i only need a 2cuft softener for a 13 gpm sfr?\

\Sorry if i havent calculated it correct.


Thanks for the iron info. especially the whole house filter, when i draw a glass of water, theyre is no discolouration. however over time the water will discolour. so if i understand there is ferris iron there, not ferric????

Akpsdvan
03-06-2010, 11:24 AM
341.54/17.1=19.9 grains.
Comp hardness 1ppm FEX4 + .5Mnx4 + 19.9= 25.9

If the people that came out and took the test at the start and the well had not been run much, but by the time the test was taken for the lab the water had been run much longer and the well cleaned up some that would lower the iron and Mn...

I have been asked to test the water on a well that has been setting for some time, I request that the customer run the water out a hose for 24-36 hours straight before I take a test.. it turns the well water over and cleans up some of the stuff that might give a false test..

Not every one does that ..

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 11:56 AM
I agree with the numbers except I do not use 4 for this small amount of manganese, just 2.

And new wells do have water quality changes but running all that water for a couple days and testing them doesn't give you any idea of what it is like after sitting around in the well overnight etc. and that is what your equipment has to deal with but was sized and installed for what you found in that test after running the water so long.

Scooby, although I don't know about the bartrooms etc., it looks like a 1.5 cuft unless you have a peak demand higher than 10-11 gpm or higher.

Akpsdvan
03-06-2010, 12:06 PM
Even if there is a peak of 13gpm the 1.5 will work nicely.. as the 1.5 cubic will handle that flow.

Iron stains at .3ppm
Manganese stains at .05ppm
And that is why I use 4 and not 2....

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 12:45 PM
Over 12 gpm and the volume of resin doesn't.

Akpsdvan
03-06-2010, 12:50 PM
Does not what?
Handle the flow or the treatment?

scooby074
03-06-2010, 12:51 PM
Thanks again all.

Im pretty close now to buying and i know i would have made a mistake or spent a ton of cash if it wasnt for you!!

so we narrowed it down to a 1.5 cuft. with standard resin

Will this prevent all staining?\

i should also add a turbiditor (sp?)

and res-up with dispensor.

i dont need a whole house filter. but would it be a good thing to add?\a carbon might make the water taste better?\\

as to the differences in test results, there was very lillte extra water ran from the rep until i took my sample for the lab. maybe 50 gallons. theyre was around 50 gallons ran before the reps test.\ there has been about 500 gallons used since we took possession of the house/

ive decided illl likely buy from these guys as they seem to have the best prices up here when shippings included. http://www.aquatell.com/canada/water-softeners/clack-water-softeners/clack-water-softener-canada-45000-grain
it has a clack head which i want and 1.5 cuft resin. they sell it as a 45k unit. for 759 cad.

would that unit work
thanks again

i should add: all fixtures wil be low flow. theyre is one full bath and a 1/2 bath.

theyre will be a front load washer and a efficent dish washer as well. i think this should put us under the 12 gpm peak??

Peter Griffin
03-06-2010, 12:54 PM
I would not go with a whole house carbon filter unless you have a taste and or odor problem and unless you are willing to maintain it properly. Your selection of the softener though is right on the mark. Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.

Bob999
03-06-2010, 12:58 PM
Over 12 gpm and the volume of resin doesn't.

Gary, could you please post some documentation in support of your assertion. If not what is the basis of the assertion--and the fact that you have used it in the past and customers haven't complained is not a reliable basis in my view.

Bob999
03-06-2010, 01:12 PM
Thanks again all.

Im pretty close now to buying and i know i would have made a mistake or spent a ton of cash if it wasnt for you!!

so we narrowed it down to a 1.5 cuft. with standard resin

Will this prevent all staining?\

i should also add a turbiditor (sp?)

and res-up with dispensor.

i dont need a whole house filter. but would it be a good thing to add?\a carbon might make the water taste better?\\


I think your choice will work well for your situation. It should deal with both the iron and manganese (staining) so long as you regularly use a resin cleaner. As I expressed earlier I like Res up and dispenser.

I like turbulators and would put one in the system but not everone would agree with that view.

I agree with Peter's comments about a whole house filter. I would suggest that you install the softener and then see if you have residual taste/odor issues before making your decision.

Akpsdvan
03-06-2010, 01:14 PM
Thanks again all.

Im pretty close now to buying and i know i would have made a mistake or spent a ton of cash if it wasnt for you!!

so we narrowed it down to a 1.5 cuft. with standard resin

Will this prevent all staining?\

i should also add a turbiditor (sp?)

and res-up with dispensor.

i dont need a whole house filter. but would it be a good thing to add?\a carbon might make the water taste better?\\

as to the differences in test results, there was very lillte extra water ran from the rep until i took my sample for the lab. maybe 50 gallons. theyre was around 50 gallons ran before the reps test.\ there has been about 500 gallons used since we took possession of the house/

ive decided illl likely buy from these guys as they seem to have the best prices up here when shippings included. http://www.aquatell.com/canada/water-softeners/clack-water-softeners/clack-water-softener-canada-45000-grain
it has a clack head which i want and 1.5 cuft resin. they sell it as a 45k unit. for 759 cad.

would that unit work
thanks again

i should add: all fixtures wil be low flow. theyre is one full bath and a 1/2 bath.

theyre will be a front load washer and a efficent dish washer as well. i think this should put us under the 12 gpm peak??

Staining, It will , with salt settings and gallon settings, cleaning settings dialed to your needs.
Turbo would be a very good idea as it would give an extra to the cleaning cycle and make sure that ALL of the resin gets to spend time at the top of the resin column.

Just put some iron out between the bags of salt and save a piece of equipment and the need for that resin cleaner..

Leave room for a whole house big blue carbon filter, but for now run with out it and see if you need it, if you need it later you can always add it later, but one step at a time...

Your well pump out put is the highest that you are going to hit.. ie if it has a max of 10gpm then that is the best that you would ever be able to do...

Then over the next year or so get a home test kit from a box store or on line and check the untreated water like every 6 months to see if there is any changes to the water , then change the settings on the softener if needed.. and all will be good.

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 01:46 PM
Does not what?
Handle the flow or the treatment?
The resin won't remove all the hardness when the constant SFR gpm of the volume of resin is exceeded.

And I see you are saying that if the pump is a 10 gpm, he can't get more water than 10 gpm.... without knowing a lot about the well etc. that is false.

Here is a pump chart to prove it:
.
10140

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 01:59 PM
so we narrowed it down to a 1.5 cuft. with standard resin

Will this prevent all staining?\

i should also add a turbiditor (sp?)

and res-up with dispensor.

i dont need a whole house filter. but would it be a good thing to add?\a carbon might make the water taste better?\\

all fixtures will be low flow. theyre is one full bath and a 1/2 bath. theyre will be a front load washer and a efficient dish washer as well. i think this should put us under the 12 gpm peak??
Yes a 1.5 cuft IF the number of bathrooms and type of fixtures don't require a higher constant SFR (service flow rating) or you need better salt efficiency. It will remove your 1 ppm of iron etc..

No Turbulator is needed, you don't have enough iron to justify one and if you go with one you can not have a gravel underbed. Without the gravel underbed the pressure loss across the softener is higher than with one.

Carbon is a great place to grow bacteria and you have well water with no disinfection. And so far you haven't mentioned any need for a carbon filter. So get the softener and see how the water tastes, if bad, then buy a 2 stage drinking water filter with an RO long reach swivel faucet installed on the counter.

Akpsdvan
03-06-2010, 02:10 PM
While there may not be the iron to justify... the turbutator Will keep the resin cleaner along with using ALL of the resin, unlike the normal dist that will only use 60% of the resin in the life of the system.
Think of it as an up side down cone.. as the system treats the water the resin close to the dist is the first to get used and works its way down through the system, so that when the unit goes into a cleaning cycle not all of the resin is in need of cleaning there is resin that is still charged..
With the turbo that is still going to happen, just that still charged resin is going to get worked into the rest of the bed and used in the next cleaning cycle.
I have seen units with standard dist run out of salt and fall on its face, while units with the turbo run out of salt and while the water is not fully treated , there is still some treatment going on...

Akpsdvan
03-06-2010, 02:14 PM
The resin won't remove all the hardness when the constant SFR gpm of the volume of resin is exceeded.

And I see you are saying that if the pump is a 10 gpm, he can't get more water than 10 gpm.... without knowing a lot about the well etc. that is false.

Here is a pump chart to prove it:
.
10140

Thought that we where talking about Peak flow, not constant flow... if I was doing 12 gpm flow 24/7 then it would be either a 2 cubic foot or 2.5 cubic foot and a 1.5 inch valve... and I most likely would dump the turbo because of a max flow of 17gpm. But the sizing of the unit would also have to work with the flow out put of the well pump....... only a fool puts a unit needing 12gpm backwash on a 7gpm well pump.

scooby074
03-06-2010, 02:31 PM
ill have to try and get the specs on the pump/\ cant say about the depth, but ill guess 60 ft. this is based on opinions from the softener reps.



i can say its a 1/2 hp and its a jet pump. but actual GPM i have no idea.

i wish i could tell you more, but the house was a repo.\il

considering the whole place will be new, low flow fixtures i dont expect to exceed 12 gpm draw.

so the turbo isnt recomended??? i thought it would be cheap insurence if it improved the resin bed operation.

ill pass on the carbon until i know how the water tastes. an undercounter RO might even be a better idea at a later date

Peter Griffin
03-06-2010, 02:45 PM
I doubt you will exceed 12 gpm either. I like to run a turbulator for all the reasons AK posted.

Akpsdvan
03-06-2010, 02:53 PM
ill have to try and get the specs on the pump/\ cant say about the depth, but ill guess 60 ft. this is based on opinions from the softener reps.



i can say its a 1/2 hp and its a jet pump. but actual GPM i have no idea.

i wish i could tell you more, but the house was a repo.\il

considering the whole place will be new, low flow fixtures i dont expect to exceed 12 gpm draw.

so the turbo isnt recomended??? i thought it would be cheap insurence if it improved the resin bed operation.

ill pass on the carbon until i know how the water tastes. an undercounter RO might even be a better idea at a later date

A 1/2 horse Shallow well pump if the water was 5' down and you did 20PSI you could do 15gpm,,,, but really with what you are doing, where the water is at... you are most likely in the 6gpm range...

Yes the turbo is cheap insurnance and gives better preforance from the resin and salt...

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 06:08 PM
While there may not be the iron to justify... the turbutator Will keep the resin cleaner along with using ALL of the resin, unlike the normal dist that will only use 60% of the resin in the life of the system.
Think of it as an up side down cone...
Yes the upside down cone happens with all softeners that don't have a gravel underbed. Those that do have the gravel underbed don't have that problem.

Akpsdvan
03-06-2010, 06:11 PM
Yes the upside down cone happens with all softeners that don't have a gravel underbed. Those that do have the gravel underbed don't have that problem.

Gravel bed or no Gravel bed it is Going to happen...

The path of least resistance is down the center of any unit.

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 06:14 PM
Thought that we where talking about Peak flow, not constant flow... if I was doing 12 gpm flow 24/7 then it would be either a 2 cubic foot or 2.5 cubic foot and a 1.5 inch valve... and I most likely would dump the turbo because of a max flow of 17gpm. But the sizing of the unit would also have to work with the flow out put of the well pump....... only a fool puts a unit needing 12gpm backwash on a 7gpm well pump.
I said peak demand and constant SFR. The constant SFR is controlled by the volume of resin, nothing more. The 1.5 cuft of resin has a 12 gpm SFR, exceed the 12 gpm and the resin can't remove all the hardness.

The pump chart I posted shows a 12 hp 10 gpm pump delivering 11 up to 16 gpm depending on the 'head' of the system, yet you disagree. What do you base the disagreement on other than the gpm rating of the pump, because that is shown to not be true?

Akpsdvan
03-06-2010, 06:30 PM
Trained in Pumps?
I know that I am not, I have learned from well drillers with years under their belts.. but guess that mean nothing.

1.5 can be pushed to 15gpm with pressure loss and leakage... did not say that it would not have that happen..

The pump curves that you are showing are most likely SQ or SQE or even the SP... but the pump that most still have in the wells are not multi stage pumps.. thus the curves are different.

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 09:45 PM
Just regular submersible pumps. I did pump work for 18 years as a Goulds dealer.

Again, I'm not talking max flow of the softener, I'm talking about the max flow the volume of resin can remove the hardness from on a consistent basis.

Bob999
03-07-2010, 05:25 AM
The 1.5 cuft of resin has a 12 gpm SFR, exceed the 12 gpm and the resin can't remove all the hardness.



What is the basis of your assertion? Is this based on published and verified data or just something you have made up?

Gary Slusser
03-07-2010, 09:48 AM
What is the basis of your assertion? Is this based on published and verified data or just something you have made up?
Actually it is published because the figures were verified and if you were more than just a person with a softener, such as a knowledgeable water treatment dealer, you'd know where it is published and what I'm talking about..

Bob999
03-07-2010, 04:41 PM
Actually it is published because the figures were verified and if you were more than just a person with a softener, such as a knowledgeable water treatment dealer, you'd know where it is published and what I'm talking about..

Until I see a citation for the reference I can only assume you have made it up.

Gary Slusser
03-07-2010, 10:44 PM
Until I see a citation for the reference I can only assume you have made it up.
Actually the figures were verified and then published. And I cite those figures.

Previously you have said you don't believe my figures and would use the resin manufactures' figures of 1-5 gpm/cuft. If you know anything about peak demand flow rates of houses, or how to calculate it, it is based on the number of fixtures and the type of those fixtures. If you had a peak demand of say 12 gpm for a 2.5 bathroom house with no big tub and one regular shower head in the showers, you would have to size a softener for that house at 3 cuft, right? How many 3.0 cuft softeners do you think are in that size house?

Akpsdvan
03-07-2010, 11:02 PM
I know of a couple,, they are Very nice houses with lots of water flow, and high iron and hardness.
There are even some Bed and Breakfasts that are running that size..
There is a Twin 3 cubic that is feeding a 4000 gallon tank that then feeds 5 right now more later what we call cabins, but realy are small vacation homes..
They where sized based on well production, useage and water comp hardness.

Gary Slusser
03-07-2010, 11:13 PM
I know of a couple,, they are Very nice houses with lots of water flow, and high iron and hardness.
There are even some Bed and Breakfasts that are running that size..
There is a Twin 3 cubic that is feeding a 4000 gallon tank that then feeds 5 right now more later what we call cabins, but realy are small vacation homes..
They where sized based on well production, useage and water comp hardness.
I am talking the peak demand flow rate gpm of the house. Not how many gallons are used a day.

Akpsdvan
03-07-2010, 11:21 PM
Does the starter of this question have any clue as to what is going on?
They are gone and we are over their head if they are still around..

Depending on the Application as to how often Every point is going to be used at the same time... some it will never happen , others it might once a year while others might only it once every 10 years...

There is a balance to find a point for any system, be it softener or other so that it can hit that peak but still do the normal every day runs with out causing problems by getting to big, to be sized soly based on that High end flow rate is going to be a head ache for the half flow of high end.

Bob999
03-08-2010, 06:15 AM
Actually the figures were verified and then published. And I cite those figures.

Previously you have said you don't believe my figures and would use the resin manufactures' figures of 1-5 gpm/cuft. If you know anything about peak demand flow rates of houses, or how to calculate it, it is based on the number of fixtures and the type of those fixtures. If you had a peak demand of say 12 gpm for a 2.5 bathroom house with no big tub and one regular shower head in the showers, you would have to size a softener for that house at 3 cuft, right? How many 3.0 cuft softeners do you think are in that size house?

Gary, as I said, until you provide the citation I will continue to believe you made them up. As to my posts about resin manufacturers specifications I recall what I said a bit differently but that is not really the point. The point is that you posted that: "The 1.5 cuft of resin has a 12 gpm SFR, exceed the 12 gpm and the resin can't remove all the hardness." You also posted: "The resin won't remove all the hardness when the constant SFR gpm of the volume of resin is exceeded."

My concern is that these statement are misleading.

As as been discussed in other threads the specifications for Purolite standard high capacity resin provide leakage data at 5 gpm per cubic foot of resin and even at a flow rate of 5 gpm there is hardness leakage--the resin doesn't remove all the hardness at a flow rate of 5 gpm. At higher flow rates/cubic foot hardness leakage increases.

My concern aside I am seeking the basis for your specific quantification of the flow rates that will produce acceptable water quality in a residential setting. Also as has been discussed in other threads the objective in a typical residential application is not to remove all the hardness. The WQA rates water with less than 1 grain per gallon as "soft" even though it still contains some hardness.

In the current thread we are discussing a 1.5 cubic foot softener and the max flow through the softener that can occur and still provide acceptable water quality. I think there is total agreement that flows greater than 5 gpm per cubic foot of resin can occur and still produce less than 1 grain of hardness.

You are posting that if the flow exceeds 8 gpm per cubic foot of resin then "the resin can't remove all the hardness". I think what you really mean is that the water will have hardness greater than 1 grain per gallon. You have, in other threads said that the volume of resin is what determines the "SFR". You also say for a 1 cubic foot softener the SFR is 9 gpm but then you assert that the SFT for a 1.5 cubic foot softner is 12 gpm (and this equals 8 gpm/cubic foot of resin).

So it is the inconsistencies that cause me to again ask for the source of the data you continually assert. I agree that flow rates of greater than 5 gpm/cubic foot of resin will provide acceptable water quality in a residential setting but I am unaware of data that provides a basis for saying any specific number is the cut off such as you are asserting.

Gary Slusser
03-08-2010, 07:12 AM
Does the starter of this question have any clue as to what is going on?
They are gone and we are over their head if they are still around..
The subject of this thread is:
Please Help me choose a softener for a well with iron. And it will get a lot of views and come up in many sereaches here in the future. So the on going discussion is appropriate.


Depending on the Application as to how often Every point is going to be used at the same time... some it will never happen , others it might once a year while others might only it once every 10 years...

There is a balance to find a point for any system, be it softener or other so that it can hit that peak but still do the normal every day runs with out causing problems by getting to big, to be sized soly based on that High end flow rate is going to be a head ache for the half flow of high end.
It's not when Every point (fixture) is used, I size as to how many people in the house, how many bathrooms and what type of tubs and showers they have and whether they are used and if so how frequently (a balance as you say) but, codes do say to count all fixtures using the fixture count method and I don't do that because consumers say they don't have all fixtures running at once, and I agree. And actually you are agreeing with what I am saying. Bob999, take note.

Gary Slusser
03-08-2010, 08:20 AM
Gary, as I said, until you provide the citation I will continue to believe you made them up.
That's your choice Bob but you are wrong. The figures are produced by equipment suppliers for the various sized softeners they sell. The last time I told you that you said you wouldn't use those figures. And here you are again being disagreeable simply to be disagreeable.


As to my posts about resin manufacturers specifications I recall what I said a bit differently but that is not really the point. The point is that you posted that: "The 1.5 cuft of resin has a 12 gpm SFR, exceed the 12 gpm and the resin can't remove all the hardness." You also posted: "The resin won't remove all the hardness when the constant SFR gpm of the volume of resin is exceeded."
Yes I did because it is for the consumption of members reading this and because when they test their water for hardness the result is converted to gpg if it is not stated as gpg. I've told you that before and here you are going on about all the hardness not being removed because there will be X ppm or mg/l still left in the water and you're pickin' nits because I said "remove all the hardness". If a dealer or service guy shows up to fix a softener, we don't test in ppm or mg/l, we test in gpg and if the test shows 0 gpg of hardness, the water is said to be soft water.

Bob, even 18 megohm DI water, the purest water that man can make, will still have some hardness in it although I'm not sure anyone can measure that hardness in the field.


My concern is that these statement are misleading.
Actually they are correct but you don't believe it.


As as been discussed in other threads the specifications for Purolite standard high capacity resin provide leakage data at 5 gpm per cubic foot of resin and even at a flow rate of 5 gpm there is hardness leakage--the resin doesn't remove all the hardness at a flow rate of 5 gpm. At higher flow rates/cubic foot hardness leakage increases.
Actually Bob Purolite says 1-5 gpm per cuft., any ideas why they have that range?

You could call Purolite and ask them what the leakage would be for a 1.5 cuft softener at a flow rate of 12 gpm.


My concern aside I am seeking the basis for your specific quantification of the flow rates that will produce acceptable water quality in a residential setting. Also as has been discussed in other threads the objective in a typical residential application is not to remove all the hardness. The WQA rates water with less than 1 grain per gallon as "soft" even though it still contains some hardness.
Yes, acceptable water in a residential application. And yes that's what the WQA says as all dealers doing residential softening say. I have been telling you that for months here.


In the current thread we are discussing a 1.5 cubic foot softener and the max flow through the softener that can occur and still provide acceptable water quality. I think there is total agreement that flows greater than 5 gpm per cubic foot of resin can occur and still produce less than 1 grain of hardness.

I agree that flow rates of greater than 5 gpm/cubic foot of resin will provide acceptable water quality in a residential setting but I am unaware of data that provides a basis for saying any specific number is the cut off such as you are asserting.
That's correct, acceptable to any residential customer. I agree that you are unaware of the data. And yes, a 1.5 cuft softener will provide acceptable water quality (0 gpg) in a residential application up to 12 gpm.


You are posting that if the flow exceeds 8 gpm per cubic foot of resin then "the resin can't remove all the hardness". I think what you really mean is that the water will have hardness greater than 1 grain per gallon. You have, in other threads said that the volume of resin is what determines the "SFR". You also say for a 1 cubic foot softener the SFR is 9 gpm but then you assert that the SFT for a 1.5 cubic foot softner is 12 gpm (and this equals 8 gpm/cubic foot of resin).
You have never seen me say 8 gpm/cuft anywhere.

What you don't grasp is that when you make a larger softener, that means it has more resin in a larger diameter and height tank and the resin column is spread out some as opposed to simply adding all the additional resin to the depth of the resin bed. It's the depth of the rsin bed that adds to the constant SFR, not the additional width.

I'E. a 1 cuft is in a 9" x 48" tank and a 1.5 cuft is in a 10" x 54" tank and a 2.0 cuft is in a 12" x 52" tank etc..

We see that AKpsdvan says he uses smaller diameter and shorter tanks and simply adds more resin.

If you follow resin manufacturer's recommendations for a minimum 50% freeboard, he is not allowing that. The 50% means 50% of the bed depth as empty space above the resin level in the tank and is required for proper backwashing of teh resin.

AKpsdvan then uses a Turbulator distributor tube, which means no gravel underbed can be used, and that means a higher pressure loss across the softener. The Turbulator also requires a higher DLFC gpm be used and that means the water use efficiency of that softener is much less than one without a Turbulator distributor tube. But he does agree with what I've been telling you, he just doesn't think the softener should be sized for the total of all fixtures and I agree and don't size as if all the fixtures were running at once.

Peter Griffin
03-08-2010, 11:32 AM
And yet the code in many states requires the softener to be sized as though all fixtures were in use.

Gary Slusser
03-08-2010, 12:43 PM
And yet the code in many states requires the softener to be sized as though all fixtures were in use.
That's right so I expect you are following the code and selling very large and oversized softeners right?

Bob999
03-08-2010, 02:04 PM
That's your choice Bob but you are wrong. The figures are produced by equipment suppliers for the various sized softeners they sell. The last time I told you that you said you wouldn't use those figures. And here you are again being disagreeable simply to be disagreeable.


Yes I did because it is for the consumption of members reading this and because when they test their water for hardness the result is converted to gpg if it is not stated as gpg. I've told you that before and here you are going on about all the hardness not being removed because there will be X ppm or mg/l still left in the water and you're pickin' nits because I said "remove all the hardness". If a dealer or service guy shows up to fix a softener, we don't test in ppm or mg/l, we test in gpg and if the test shows 0 gpg of hardness, the water is said to be soft water.

Bob, even 18 megohm DI water, the purest water that man can make, will still have some hardness in it although I'm not sure anyone can measure that hardness in the field.


Actually they are correct but you don't believe it.


Actually Bob Purolite says 1-5 gpm per cuft., any ideas why they have that range?

You could call Purolite and ask them what the leakage would be for a 1.5 cuft softener at a flow rate of 12 gpm.


Yes, acceptable water in a residential application. And yes that's what the WQA says as all dealers doing residential softening say. I have been telling you that for months here.


That's correct, acceptable to any residential customer. I agree that you are unaware of the data. And yes, a 1.5 cuft softener will provide acceptable water quality (0 gpg) in a residential application up to 12 gpm.


You have never seen me say 8 gpm/cuft anywhere.

What you don't grasp is that when you make a larger softener, that means it has more resin in a larger diameter and height tank and the resin column is spread out some as opposed to simply adding all the additional resin to the depth of the resin bed. It's the depth of the rsin bed that adds to the constant SFR, not the additional width.

I'E. a 1 cuft is in a 9" x 48" tank and a 1.5 cuft is in a 10" x 54" tank and a 2.0 cuft is in a 12" x 52" tank etc..

We see that AKpsdvan says he uses smaller diameter and shorter tanks and simply adds more resin.

If you follow resin manufacturer's recommendations for a minimum 50% freeboard, he is not allowing that. The 50% means 50% of the bed depth as empty space above the resin level in the tank and is required for proper backwashing of teh resin.

AKpsdvan then uses a Turbulator distributor tube, which means no gravel underbed can be used, and that means a higher pressure loss across the softener. The Turbulator also requires a higher DLFC gpm be used and that means the water use efficiency of that softener is much less than one without a Turbulator distributor tube. But he does agree with what I've been telling you, he just doesn't think the softener should be sized for the total of all fixtures and I agree and don't size as if all the fixtures were running at once.

I appreciate your comments but you still haven't answered the basic question: What is the source of data that supports the assertions you have made?.

Peter Griffin
03-08-2010, 02:43 PM
The Jones family bought a nice two and a half bath home. They are both in their early 60's. so they need a softener and call around for prices. The Acme Water Co. comes in and seeing as it's just the two people with no kids, he sells them equipment based on what he calculates will be their average water use. A couple years down the road Mr. Jones drops dead of a massive stroke and Mrs. Jones sells the house to the Smith family. The Smith family has 4 kids, 2 of which are teenagers. The smith families water use is 3 times the Jones use. Suddenly the softener is way undersized. That's why we have codes and yes, I do follow them.

Akpsdvan
03-08-2010, 02:49 PM
I too would have done the unit for the house and set it up for just the couple , do that all the time....
There are a few that come to mind that have a system that some would call over kill, but there is only 1 or 2 people there, but the next family might fill every bedroom with 1.5 people....

Teens,,,, girls or boys.... each one could take the 20 mintue shower....2 times a day..

So much then for the 60gallons per person per day..................that one is Out the Window ... at mach 3

Peter Griffin
03-08-2010, 03:09 PM
Yep and that would be the reason for codes. Now let's just say you are the unlucky guy that sold the undersized on in the first place and your company sticker is on it. And let's say Mr. Smith just happens to be a lawyer and a nasty little FU*(&R at that. Hmmmmmm, don't you wish you had gone by the code now :confused:

Bob999
03-08-2010, 03:27 PM
Yep and that would be the reason for codes. Now let's just say you are the unlucky guy that sold the undersized on in the first place and your company sticker is on it. And let's say Mr. Smith just happens to be a lawyer and a nasty little FU*(&R at that. Hmmmmmm, don't you wish you had gone by the code now :confused:

But of course if you sell online from a no fixed address (put your favorite term here) and your goods are drop shipped from a wholesaler so there is no identification on the equipment as to who sold the equipment then it doesn't matter.

Peter Griffin
03-08-2010, 04:07 PM
And that will happen, and does happen and that's fine because it's the homeowner taking the liability and responsibility there.

Gary Slusser
03-08-2010, 11:03 PM
The Jones family bought a nice two and a half bath home. They are both in their early 60's. so they need a softener and call around for prices. The Acme Water Co. comes in and seeing as it's just the two people with no kids, he sells them equipment based on what he calculates will be their average water use. A couple years down the road Mr. Jones drops dead of a massive stroke and Mrs. Jones sells the house to the Smith family. The Smith family has 4 kids, 2 of which are teenagers. The smith families water use is 3 times the Jones use. Suddenly the softener is way undersized. That's why we have codes and yes, I do follow them.
Recalling that just a week or so ago I was being accused of selling over sized softeners... No problem here with the Smiths. Mr Jones has kept the programming information and instructions with the softener (as I've told him to), including my contact info and the Smith family only needs to reprogram for his family of 6. And if Mrs Jones has made Mr Jones throw away the packet of instructions etc., or has done it herself because as women are prone to do, she saw it hadn't been used in awhile, then Mr Smith will get on the internet and nice guys like y'all will help him program it.

And as I tell my customers, if Mr Smith isn't happy with the softener due to an inspection etc, tell him no problem, you will remove it from the sale and that he can buy one that is satisfactory to him, or not, it's his choice, the same for the carpeting, hardwood flooring etc., etc.. I usually ask the people that call me about a softener if they would buy a vehicle based on the size of the family that might buy the vehicle when they trade or sell it. No one has said yes yet.

BTW, what size would you sell for the Jones house?

Peter Griffin
03-09-2010, 03:22 AM
As long as the equipment can be re-programmed to work properly with the increased demand there is no problem. You would have no liability selling the equipment anyway. Only the installer would. I would size it for peak demand of the fixtures served.

Gary Slusser
03-10-2010, 09:21 AM
As long as the equipment can be re-programmed to work properly with the increased demand there is no problem. You would have no liability selling the equipment anyway. Only the installer would. I would size it for peak demand of the fixtures served.
As you know, a softener can not be reprogrammed for the peak demand gpm that it has to be capable of treating, so what cuft size would that be for this Jones house that you described?

Peter Griffin
03-10-2010, 09:38 AM
Are you asking the question because you really want an answer or are you just trying to start an agrument?

scooby074
03-10-2010, 06:23 PM
Wow guys,
quite a discussion since i was last here:cool: You guys sure like your softeners lol.

Many ways to skin a cat i guess. lol.

I havent had a chance to order my unit yet, but Thanks again for the info.

Peter Griffin
03-10-2010, 07:09 PM
Oh yea, I remember you. You were the guy that started this thing :cool:

Akpsdvan
03-10-2010, 07:15 PM
Yup,,, this thread turned into a bar fight over which truck was better,,, Ford or Chevy or Dodge......

Even the Cops got called in to break it up.........

Gary Slusser
03-10-2010, 08:43 PM
Are you asking the question because you really want an answer or are you just trying to start an agrument?
The question I asked, what size softener for your Jones house, has to do with your previous comments and previous replies about what I said about sizing the softener.

Where's the argument? I simply asked a question about what you have said.

Skip Wolverton
03-11-2010, 08:08 AM
Yup,,, this thread turned into a bar fight over which truck was better,,, Ford or Chevy or Dodge......

Even the Cops got called in to break it up.........
Hey.......We are not going for a Chevy, Ford or Dodge..........We are going for the Toyota.....They give you a ride for your life. LOL

scooby074
03-13-2010, 06:05 PM
Hey.......We are not going for a Chevy, Ford or Dodge..........We are going for the Toyota.....They give you a ride for your life. LOL

Oh what a feeling!!! :D

Back on topic, is they're any issue in chlorinating well on a softener? On another forum i was told that you cant chlorinate a well on a softener without wrecking the bed? if you intend on chlorinating then you need to use a special resin thats $$$

Akpsdvan
03-13-2010, 06:40 PM
If one is on city water with chlorine, one can use a softener straight up, but after a number of years say 10 the resin bed will compat in on its self.. chlorine will do that to the bed.
If there is iron in the water and one puts chlorine in , the chlorine will change the iron and that changed iron will pass through the softener.
If one uses chlorine, then one is going to need to use a media that can handle the changed iron and chlorine.. say a pummis type bed that can take out the oxidized iron, or use a tank to let that settle to the bottom of the tank.. then carbon to pull out the chlorine and what ever it makes.. some 600 items if there are organics in the water..

Why is it again that you would need to use Chlorine?

Skip Wolverton
03-13-2010, 06:41 PM
Chlorine will take it's toll on any resin. It depends on how strong the chlorine is and the amount of water used on how long the resin lasts. You can remove the iron with a softener, but you must keep the resin clean with iron out which, over time, the resin will need replacing.

scooby074
03-13-2010, 07:52 PM
i wasnt planning on needing to chlorinate, but it was discussed on another forum where a person mentioned iron bacteria and the need to chlorinate to kill the bacteria and remove any smells (sulphur?)He had to get special resin to tolerate this chlorination using bleach.

I was just asking due to my father needing to put bleach in his well every couple months when the smell gets bad. I wanted to know if i face the same things, will it damage my softener.

My water at this time, has no real smell. The only time i got any smell was once, when the water wasnt ran for several days. I havent smelld anything since.

So occasional (4-6 times/year?) chlorination with bleach wont hurt the resin too bad? I understand it may be taking a little life out of it, but it wont destroy it?

Akpsdvan
03-13-2010, 08:05 PM
Different wells do different things, even wells that are 100 yards apart can be like night and day.

If you don't need the chlorine why go there?

There are a number around here that might use chlorine in their wells every 3 years....

If you leave the softener on line when you use chlorine in the well yes you are going to be doing a number on that softener... iron fouling, shorting the life of the resin and in general making a mess with in the softener...

I like to take things one step at a time when doing equipment,, if one does not need it why put it in ?

When you got the smell was it more metal iron smell ? or the egg?

I would wager that it was the iron metal smell....

scooby074
03-13-2010, 10:31 PM
I cant say exactly if it was a "metal iron smell" but it definately wasnt "eggy" like my fathers when it goes bad. It was much fainter, barely detectable. It only lasted for a few seconds as the water was being poured into a bucket, and only if you had your nose right in it.

I dont intend on chlorinating unless absolutely necessary,. I will be sure to get a bypass with any softener i get. This was just more for my curiosity
I do know that wells can change, Dad used to have the best water, then a new, large house moved in next door and the water went eggy almost immeadately.

Weird how that happens?

Akpsdvan
03-13-2010, 11:17 PM
Not really strange how it happens, more water getting pulled out changes the amount in the ground, the flow... have seen it around here, then there are the earth quakes that can change the water quality or flow... then there is the amount of rain or snow that can change what happens to the flow , quality of the water..

Skip Wolverton
03-14-2010, 08:30 AM
I was just asking due to my father needing to put bleach in his well every couple months when the smell gets bad. I wanted to know if i face the same things, will it damage my softener.
I DO NOT recommend pouring chlorine down the well. I have heard customers say things like, "Had to replace the pump because it shorted". One said his pump "broke off" the pipe.

scooby074
04-16-2010, 06:17 PM
Thanks to all those that helped.

I ended up going with a Clack WS1 from Aquatell.
After conferencing with the guy in sales, i upsized to a 2Cuft model. This was only around $60 so i figured it worth it.

The guy i talked to said they're would be savings from buying the larger unit and downgrading the unit's capacity. he said id save on salt by being able to have less regens per week and not having to use 100% of the capacity.

It was explained that the closer you get to max capacity, the harder the machine has to work (more salt). Made sense, plus the upgrade was cheap,

He also suggested against the Turb. But recommended the Fine Mesh resin. Both were the same cost $30, so i went with the fine mesh for the most bang for the buck.

Thanks again all for the help. For any other Canadians on the site ,I cant say enough about Aquatel. Excellent service and amazing shipping. Only took 3 days to come from Ontario to NS.

Now i get to look forward to the setup ...eek

Akpsdvan
04-16-2010, 07:33 PM
My My, the fun part is about to start......

Might I ask why he suggested against the turb?

scooby074
04-16-2010, 08:30 PM
he said that basically it wasn't needed, especially with the larger unit, and that price was a factor (which it was for me) so it was best to put the money towards the fine mesh.

About the iron, he said to just add Resup or equivalent every couple bags of salt. He said that should be fine.

I was wanting the clack with the upflow bed but he didn't stock them and special order would raise the price considerably. Thats when i suggested the turb, and he recommended the resin instead.

i suppose i could add the turb later if needed

Akpsdvan
04-16-2010, 08:47 PM
Up flow brine only truely works if the bed does not unpack... if it unpacks then the up flow brining is not as effective as it should be... ie the water boss and water max units have the resin bed between 2 mesh plates that do not let the resin move... works great if there is NO iron in the water, but add iron and it is best to be able to move the resin around..
This is what I have learned, others will say different, but I am going on feild work as to what has and what has not worked..

scooby074
04-17-2010, 07:09 PM
Akpsdvan,

so you'd recommend dowflow then as well ,over the upflow. he said hes sold lots of downflows in iron conditions without turbs with no issues. I was dead set for a turb as it made sense to me, but he considered it overkill.

but he did say i have to be vigilant with the iron out or there would be issues.

Akpsdvan
04-17-2010, 08:15 PM
Akpsdvan,

so youd recommend dowflow then as well ,over the upflow. he said hes sold lots of downflows in iron conditions without turbs with no issues. I was dead set for a turb as it made sense to me, but he considered it overkill.

but he did say i have to be viagalent with the iron out or there would be issues.

Yes downflow over the upflow unless the bed is between to mesh plates.
There are any number of units around here that do not have the turbo and work fine, do not let it get away from you, ie keep salt in it with some iron out from time to time and cycling within the time frame needed, if the unit can go 1000 gallons have it cycle 100 to 150 gallons short of the 1000 to keep from iron build up or fouling of the resin bed.